On the current state of Shardblades

[Abba Zaba]

Is it possible that the existing shards aren't even the same ones that the radiants used?

Either way, welcome to 17th shard!

I agree with this thought - that the shards are something else entirely from what the original Knights Radiant carried or that they have become corrupted beyond recognition by the influence of Odium. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, which I didnt even take into account in the original post, Kaladin feels a strong aversion to the weapon and armor. He sees the blood of his friends staining the blade and cant bear the thought of picking it up - risking his honor. Dalinar has begun to find honor and ends up giving his blade up. Do you think he would have proposed such a trade with Sadeas in his youth, before starting to hear from The Way of Kings? I think not.

I also like the idea of people having to live by and speak the oaths of the Radiants to be what returns the holy relics - the true shards - to the people of Roshar. Just as Kaladin's father said, someone has to start and lead by example. Dalinar and Kaladin have started this trend and hopefully with their influence others can start living the same way and the Radiants can return.

[FlashWrogan he/him]

I dont remember the text saying Szeth was lighteyed when wielding the shard, can you find that? I think that the legends surrounding a darkeyed person winning a shardblade and plate are just that - legends - that it happened so rarely or infrequently (possibly never) that the dark eyes invented it to give themselves some kind of hope that there is a possibility to rise above their current station in Alethkar.

It is in Szeth's interlude after part one:

Szeth tried to play the part, tried to make himself act less refined. It was very difficult for him. Perhaps impossible. What would these men say if they knew that the man who emptied their chamber pot was a Shardbearer and a Surgebinder? A Windrunner, like the Radiants of old? The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.

Of note here is that he seems to indicate that this effect is something specific to only his blade. This may mean that other blades turn your eyes light permanently, or not at all. Also of note is Dalinar's flashback of the Radiants abandoning their plate and blades. The Alethi-looking man still has unnaturally light eyes after he has abandoned his shards.

I agree with this thought - that the shards are something else entirely from what the original Knights Radiant carried or that they have become corrupted beyond recognition by the influence of Odium. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, which I didnt even take into account in the original post, Kaladin feels a strong aversion to the weapon and armor. He sees the blood of his friends staining the blade and cant bear the thought of picking it up - risking his honor. Dalinar has begun to find honor and ends up giving his blade up. Do you think he would have proposed such a trade with Sadeas in his youth, before starting to hear from The Way of Kings? I think not.

I don't buy that present-day plate is entirely different than Radiant-day plate. It opens up too many questions. Where did all the plate of old go to? Where did mankind get the shards that they have today? Are they fundamentally different? I think it is much more plausible that the plate that the Radiants used have diffused throughout today's world and have changed in some way by Odium's influence, Honor's absence, or absence of the oaths.

[Inkthinker]

I viewed the thrill similar to Inkthinker. Although I wonder if perhaps it's a part of the Alethi lighteyes culture, even if it is a somewhat taboo topic. Kaladin and Szeth wouldn't refer to it as such because they come from different backgrounds.

Well, I'm also an outlier on a lot of the local theories. For instance, I don't think Shallan murdered her father (or even had a hand in killing him through intentional, conscious action), I think she's suffering from a misplaced sense of guilt that we don't fully understand.

So, y'know... I'm nutty like that.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Inkthinker

[Zenith]

Well, I'm also an outlier on a lot of the local theories. For instance, I don't think Shallan murdered her father (or even had a hand in killing him through intentional, conscious action), I think she's suffering from a misplaced sense of guilt that we don't fully understand.

So, y'know... I'm nutty like that.

My issue with this is that the truthspren say that is was a "powerful truth". She tries saying that Jasnah can soulcast without the soulcaster, but they say that isn't enough; it seems that they only accept things that she knows to be true, not that she guess, or (probably), that she feels.

Besides,

she did get the shardblade.

She calls it the sin of her most horrific act; that makes it seem more directly that she killed him.

[Inkthinker]

Oh, I know the arguments. Still standing my ground.

-EDIT-

For clarification, I'm sure she was present at the event or shortly after, and for some reason she feels responsible. But I don't think she actually did it herself, and I'm betting she's not as culpable as she feels.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Inkthinker

[Zenith]

I can respect that. Either way, as next book is a Shallan book, we might very well get the answer to this question.

[Morsk he/him]

I viewed the thrill similar to Inkthinker. Although I wonder if perhaps it's a part of the Alethi lighteyes culture, even if it is a somewhat taboo topic. Kaladin and Szeth wouldn't refer to it as such because they come from different backgrounds.

I feel the same way. I think calling it capital Thrill is part of Vorin gender roles, and we don't see Kaladin doing it for the same reason that many Vorin women are content to wear a glove instead of an elaborate sleeve. They identify as Vorin, and would be horrified at someone speaking of the future, or a man reading. But they mostly stop at the level of those taboos, and little rituals like burning prayers. They don't have the full dedication to Vorin culture that the Lighteyes do.

[StormAtlas]

I've definitely been thinking similar things to you about the Shardblades. There's obviously something that's not right with them, which is made perfectly obvious by things like Syl's reaction to them, the fact that they lost their inner light in Dalinar's vision, and even Kaladin's reaction to the Blade in his flashback sequence. The Shardblades have been corrupted somehow - quite possibly, as you say, due to Odium's influence - and now our heroes are left to pick up the pieces. (Or was that pick up the Shards? )

I may be over simplifying things, specially with the introduction of the thrill into the conversation but the gist I got while reading the books was not so much that Odium was influencing the people of the world but that since the Radiant had left, the moral standards the people had begun to decline. Over the course of hundreds of years people in the present time are driven by greed for power and wealth. Shardblades not only represent the pinnacle of this wealth and greed but also creates a means for creating more.

That is what the book "The Way of Kings" is really about in my thoughts; its about living correctly, with honor humbleness etc etc. It is mentioned over and over how greedy the lords have become and the lack of humility that most have.

[Meg]

Hello,

first I have a plea: Go easy on me. For one thing that my English is not very good and for the other thing that I have problems to concentrate (and therefor I'm bad in quoting and may be I missed that my thoughts are already written somewhere).

I found your forum and read a little through it. Not all threads, sorry. And I began to read The Way of Kings for the third time. I bought the English book, though as above mentioned, I'm not native English speaking.

I've read this thread and understood that some of you take the line that the Thrill is directly linked to Shardbearers. When I got you right, you mean that the Thrill only appears while Shardbearing. In my humble opinion that's not the case.

When I read Part Two, Chapter 19 (Starfalls) again I came across this:

As the beast righted itself in the dark room, Dalinar scrambled away, old instincts kicking in, pain evaporating as the battle Thrill surged through him.

and a few passages later:

The old Thrill, the sense of battle, consumed him.

(there are my italics; the quotes are found in the paperback edition of Tor Fantasy, June 2011, pages 362 and 363)

Dalinar's visions show him the past. But in this vision he's not a Shardbearer neither a warrior. His own Thrill came up in this fights and therefor I'm sure, the Thrill is not linked to Shardbearing.

Besides I don't think that Kaladin isn't experiencing the Thrill. As somebody wrote, Kaladin faces a battle from another perspective as Dalinar. But how describing his "furios" fighting if not as "Thrill"? Second thing is: He's a darkeyes who -- how should I describe it? -- is by "birth" and definition not experiencing the "Thrill". It's rather consequential in the book not to describe his "fury" as "Thrill".

On the other side: if "The Way of Kings" (I mean the book in the book) is right and sometimes before the darkeyes have been the "upper class", why should Kaladin not have the "Thrill"?

I hope my posting is understandable.

[FlashWrogan he/him]

Hello,

first I have a plea: Go easy on me. For one thing that my English is not very good and for the other thing that I have problems to concentrate (and therefor I'm bad in quoting and may be I missed that my thoughts are already written somewhere).

I found your forum and read a little through it. Not all threads, sorry. And I began to read The Way of Kings for the third time. I bought the English book, though as above mentioned, I'm not native English speaking.

I've read this thread and understood that some of you take the line that the Thrill is directly linked to Shardbearers. When I got you right, you mean that the Thrill only appears while Shardbearing. In my humble opinion that's not the case.

When I read Part Two, Chapter 19 (Starfalls) again I came across this:

and a few passages later:

(there are my italics; the quotes are found in the paperback edition of Tor Fantasy, June 2011, pages 362 and 363)

Dalinar's visions show him the past. But in this vision he's not a Shardbearer neither a warrior. His own Thrill came up in this fights and therefor I'm sure, the Thrill is not linked to Shardbearing.

Besides I don't think that Kaladin isn't experiencing the Thrill. As somebody wrote, Kaladin faces a battle from another perspective as Dalinar. But how describing his "furios" fighting if not as "Thrill"? Second thing is: He's a darkeyes who -- how should I describe it? -- is by "birth" and definition not experiencing the "Thrill". It's rather consequential in the book not to describe his "fury" as "Thrill".

On the other side: if "The Way of Kings" (I mean the book in the book) is right and sometimes before the darkeyes have been the "upper class", why should Kaladin not have the "Thrill"?

I hope my posting is understandable.

Welcome to the forums! I think we all have different opinions on it, but my original and current opinion is that only people who are shardbearers experience the thrill whether or not they are actually wearing or using them at the time. My reasoning for this is that a shardblade is linked to a specific person until they die or give it up. This isn't exactly the case with shardplate, but we have hints from Dalinar's visions that perhaps you used to be able to summon plate. Most people don't agree with me, but I like the idea .

[lDanielHolm he/him]

I'm thinking that the Thrill isn't anything other than a formalized name for the surge of adrenaline and other emotions that are associated with getting into a life-or-death combat. It's the sort of thing you hear about all the time from soldiers and professional fighters.

I don't think you're correct. Dalinar lost the Thrill in battle with the Parshendi as he realized the carnage he was causing. Why would an adrenaline surge vanish like that? It doesn't make sense.

Later in that battle, it rises again, and he 'hesitantly embraced it'. That's an odd way to refer to an involuntary physical response.

When he goes to rescue Sadeas, he does not fight it, implying that he could if he wanted to.

Then, in the final battle, Dalinar fights without the Thrill after Sadeas retreats, thinking it is better to be hollow inside than feel pleasure at the killing he is doing.

The Thrill is more than adrenaline: it is a feeling of pleasure from fighting. While you can get addicted to adrenaline rushes, that is not really what is described.

It certainly sounds like something Odium would want people to feel--Honor speaks of how Odium realized he didn't need to attack humans to divide them. Just let them kill one another. The Thrill helps accomplish that.

[Cracknut he/him]

"I dont know. It just feels wrong to me. I hate it. I'm glad he got rid of it. Makes him a better man."`

What if...

Edited November 28, 2012 by 213

[SirShemmington VI]

Another thing possibly related to this, it one of dalinars visions, hte radients helmets seemed to appear and disappear at will? I cant find the exact refrence right now tho...

[Meg]

Welcome to the forums! I think we all have different opinions on it, but my original and current opinion is that only people who are shardbearers experience the thrill whether or not they are actually wearing or using them at the time. My reasoning for this is that a shardblade is linked to a specific person until they die or give it up. This isn't exactly the case with shardplate, but we have hints from Dalinar's visions that perhaps you used to be able to summon plate. Most people don't agree with me, but I like the idea :)/>/>.

Just a request: I thought the term "Shardbearer" means either having a Shardplate or a Shardblade or both. Your posting implies that Shardbearers only mean having a Shardblade ("My reasoning for this is that a shardblade is linked to a specific person until they die or give it up.").

But then Sadeas would lie about him experiencing the Thrill.

Another thing possibly related to this, it one of dalinars visions, hte radients helmets seemed to appear and disappear at will? I cant find the exact refrence right now tho...

It's in the same vision I mentioned above (first when healing "Heb" and his family the female Shardbearer didn't wear a helm but later infight she did; and after the fight, when Dalinar looked at the male Shardbearer he wondered where his helm was gone.)

Again, I hope my posting is understandable.

[Inkthinker]

I don't think you're correct. Dalinar lost the Thrill in battle with the Parshendi as he realized the carnage he was causing. Why would an adrenaline surge vanish like that? It doesn't make sense.

Later in that battle, it rises again, and he 'hesitantly embraced it'. That's an odd way to refer to an involuntary physical response.

When he goes to rescue Sadeas, he does not fight it, implying that he could if he wanted to.

Then, in the final battle, Dalinar fights without the Thrill after Sadeas retreats, thinking it is better to be hollow inside than feel pleasure at the killing he is doing.

The Thrill is more than adrenaline: it is a feeling of pleasure from fighting. While you can get addicted to adrenaline rushes, that is not really what is described.

It certainly sounds like something Odium would want people to feel--Honor speaks of how Odium realized he didn't need to attack humans to divide them. Just let them kill one another. The Thrill helps accomplish that.

I think that it's adrenaline and other emotions that arise whenever men go into intense, life-or-death physical combat. It's a socio/cultural formalization of an emotional and mental state brought about by physiology, circumstance and experience that's regularly described by real-world fighters, soldiers and athletes. It's what men speak of when they "see red", and often as something that can can doused with realization, fought off with conscious effort, or embraced.

What it is NOT (I think) is a Special State exclusive to Shardbearers, which is the other running theory. I don't think it's an indication of Odium's insidious influence seeping through the blade, it's not the Dark Side, or the call of the One Ring.

That's my thinking, anyhow. Try tweeting the question to Brandon, he might just settle it.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Inkthinker

[Inkthinker]

Although with the latest reading, I can also see The Thrill as being related to the resonance of the Parhsendi. It might be that through Shards humans are sensing the same Whatever that Parshendi warriors attune to when they take the Warrior Form.

I'm actually good with either... I like the idea that The Thrill is about being human, it's about a dark place that's inside mankind, straight down in the core of the animal, where we take pleasure and power from killing and domination. It's not Odium, it's us.

Though if it's the Parhsendi resonance, that still doesn't mean it's about Odium. It just means that Plate and Blades are attuned to the same forces on Roshar that the Parshmen tune to naturally.

[Windrunner he/him]

Just a surprising thing I noticed the other day while wikiing. You guys all remember the Unmade, correct? Often theorized to be Odium's equivalent of the Heralds? They're usually described with the word "consumed" or "consuming". While that's old news, what I did notice is that Dalinar often refers to himself as being "consumed" by the Thrill. Interesting, huh?

[Elwynn]

Just a surprising thing I noticed the other day while wikiing. You guys all remember the Unmade, correct? Often theorized to be Odium's equivalent of the Heralds? They're usually described with the word "consumed" or "consuming". While that's old news, what I did notice is that Dalinar often refers to himself as being "consumed" by the Thrill. Interesting, huh?

That is pretty interesting...especially when you think about 'Starfalls' chapter with female Radiant talking about fighting changing you, even fighting against the ten deaths.

She also says this just prior to that...'...all who can fight are needed, and all who have a desire to fight should be compelled to come to Alethela.

I read that as a link to Thrill as well. Alethi genetic trait left over from the radiants maybe?

[FlashWrogan he/him]

Just a request: I thought the term "Shardbearer" means either having a Shardplate or a Shardblade or both. Your posting implies that Shardbearers only mean having a Shardblade ("My reasoning for this is that a shardblade is linked to a specific person until they die or give it up.").

But then Sadeas would lie about him experiencing the Thrill.

That was not my intention. I was trying to imply that perhaps both plate and blade could have been summoned in the days of the radiants, making both linked to the shardbearer even while they are not actively wearing and using them.

[darkanimereal1]

Welcome to the forums! I think we all have different opinions on it, but my original and current opinion is that only people who are shardbearers experience the thrill whether or not they are actually wearing or using them at the time. My reasoning for this is that a shardblade is linked to a specific person until they die or give it up. This isn't exactly the case with shardplate, but we have hints from Dalinar's visions that perhaps you used to be able to summon plate. Most people don't agree with me, but I like the idea .

Hmm, good point. I think that if it IS an influence of the corrupted shardblades, that it is susceptible to Odium's influence. I recently stumbled on this:

 Q: Is there any ramifications to the holder of a shard blade for using a blade in a manner that it wasn't intended? 

B: Depends on the type of Shardblade. (You have seen three different kinds in TWoK.) For most, no. For some, most certainly.

It could be that, now that the blades are used for killing and personal gain rather than honor they are susceptible to Odium. This kind of goes along with another quote I saw from Brandon stating that there is a crucial difference between the old and "new" shardblades, because something is missing. I can find this if you'd like, although it would take some digging.

 

I don't think you're correct. Dalinar lost the Thrill in battle with the Parshendi as he realized the carnage he was causing. Why would an adrenaline surge vanish like that? It doesn't make sense.

Later in that battle, it rises again, and he 'hesitantly embraced it'. That's an odd way to refer to an involuntary physical response.

When he goes to rescue Sadeas, he does not fight it, implying that he could if he wanted to.

Then, in the final battle, Dalinar fights without the Thrill after Sadeas retreats, thinking it is better to be hollow inside than feel pleasure at the killing he is doing.

The Thrill is more than adrenaline: it is a feeling of pleasure from fighting. While you can get addicted to adrenaline rushes, that is not really what is described.

It certainly sounds like something Odium would want people to feel--Honor speaks of how Odium realized he didn't need to attack humans to divide them. Just let them kill one another. The Thrill helps accomplish that.

I agree. I really think this is Odium. It really, REALLY reminds me of (Mistborn)

Ruin being able to influence anyone with a Hemalurgic spike.

A subtle way of influencing thoughts while waiting and twiddling your thumbs until the right moment to strike comes along.

 

Although with the latest reading, I can also see The Thrill as being related to the resonance of the Parhsendi. It might be that through Shards humans are sensing the same Whatever that Parshendi warriors attune to when they take the Warrior Form.

I'm actually good with either... I like the idea that The Thrill is about being human, it's about a dark place that's inside mankind, straight down in the core of the animal, where we take pleasure and power from killing and domination. It's not Odium, it's us.

Though if it's the Parhsendi resonance, that still doesn't mean it's about Odium. It just means that Plate and Blades are attuned to the same forces on Roshar that the Parshmen tune to naturally.

 

I really like this idea, and also goes along with my feeling that Parshendi are influenced by Odium. I'm not saying I think Parshendi are OF Odium, just that something about them allows him to manipulate them when he wants, such as turning them into full-fledged voidbringers or something.

[Cabbage]

My first post. Just read the book so there's surely things I've missed.

____

 

Aren't shardblades simply a mean for Odium to create chaos?

For the last 4500 years it does not seem as if humanity on Roshar has been in the need of the shards to save themselves from some kind of "evil".

However, during the course of the book it das been mentioned several times during these 4500 years these Shards have resulted in the fall of kingdoms and sacrifises of many people. The shards keep being a source for war and conflicts.

From my point of view it's the most useful tool Ordium has.

[Grotes19 he/him]

This happens to be my first post as well. 

Could Shardblades perhaps be a conduit for how Odium is creating Parshendi? 
The eyes of a character almost always have a direct connection to the soul, with the eyes burning out when killed by a Shardblade then maybe we are actually seeing Odium collection the souls he needs to feed his army. This would explain why Syl sees the blades as evil. I also seem to remember Dalinar saying that the Parshendi were surviving a lot longer then was expected. If the Shardblades were really giving Odium more souls to use then everyone that Dalinar and Adolin and any other Shardbearers on the plains had killed would have little to no effect on the war in the long run. Even after a Desolation all Odium would have to do is sit and wait for mankind to refill his ranks by warring with themselves. 

 

[Shardlet he/him]

I am firmly in the camp that the typical shardblades (i.e., not Honorblades or, for lack of a better term, Szeth-blades) are indeed corrupted blades once wielded by the Radiants.  I also don't think that they were corrupted by the KR.  On page 732 (hardback), during Dalinar's vision of the Recreance, Dalinar notes in the third paragraph that after the KR abandonded their Blades their glow began to fade.  If the KR corrupted them, presumably the glow would have already faded.  As evidence of this, I note that during particularly honorable and valorious actions Dalinar's plate seems to glow and as Kaladin moves closer to his knighthood he begins to glow more readily (other than just stormlight glow).

 

I suspect the reason Syl hates the blades and plate is that they have been corrupted by the bastardized and base use that they have been subjected to by generations of squabbling Alethi (and others).  Consider the reprehensible behavior of the soldiers at Feverstone Keep at the Recreance where they were attacking and killing each other for no other purpose than to claim plate and blade for themselves.  Likewise, for hundreds of years they have been used as the ulimate weapons in border squabbles and international wars where the likely purpose for the fighting was merely for financial gain and power struggles.  Even the vengeance war with the Parshendi, honorable perhaps in its origin, has debased into nothing more than a game and a means to fatten one's purse.  All at the expense of 'lesser' soldiers who bear the brunt of death and injury to advance these base goals.

 

The shardblades were gifts (from Honor?) to be used to defend Roshar from an invading evil bent on the destruction of Roshar.  A series of wars fought in defense of the innocent for the protection and preservation of life.  This is an honorable fight.  A noble purpose served well by powerful weapons, presumably designed and intended to be used in honor and virtue.

 

Now they are corrupted to the point of being no more than instruments of death and enrichment.  Used primarily for the purpose of vaunting one's self over others.  It is no wonder that a being of honor such as Syl finds them repulsive.

[Cartith he/him]

I agree to the Thrill being only with Shard Bearers, and being related to Odium. When Dalinar began to turn away from Odium and towards Honor, the Thrill sickened him. I think that the current shards are tainted by Odium, and the intent of the Bearer affects Odium's influence. This flows with the  Theory of Intent and with events in the book. The Radiants were corrupted by Odium, so their Shards lost the Stormlight, which may be connected to Honor. This flows with the Radiants being able to Lash in Shard Plate, as it was also of Honor back when it was shiny, but now it isn't, so they can't.