What Is So Special About The Kholin Family?

[Loni she/her]

I would guess that Renarin's breaking came due to his ailment - either  one of his seizures or treatment from others because of his perceived weakness. In WoK, there are hints at something bad happening to Jasnah when she's talking to Shallan -- I can't remember which scene exactly, but I'm pretty sure it's the bit after the alley scene. 

 

Edit: I'm sorry for the repeat of info regarding Jasnah. My connection isn't fast and it took quite a while to type and then wait to post.... as soon as I posted, I saw he previous post. Sorry!

Edited April 8, 2015 by Loni

[Lord Pifferdoo he/him]

Renarin didn't break quickly, like a tree limb snapping.

He break slowly and quietly, like a swingset covered in rust. 

[edgedancing]

Maybe Adolin killing Sadeas will be what breaks him enough for him to be able to form a Nahel bond? Like all the guilt of taking a life, disappointing his father, etc etc...

 

 

For Jasnah, wasn't there something in WoK that implied she had been attacked by men before (i vaguely remember some dialog between her and Shallan after Jasnah killed the men in the alley). Don't have the book here with me or i would check.

"Besides, men like those..." There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before.

 

What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. And who did it?

 

It seems to imply that Jasnah was attacked, so that, together with her discovery about the nature of her parents' relationship that maxal mentioned might be what broke her. 

[Guest]

Maybe Adolin killing Sadeas will be what breaks him enough for him to be able to form a Nahel bond? Like all the guilt of taking a life, disappointing his father, etc etc...

 

 

It seems to imply that Jasnah was attacked, so that, together with her discovery about the nature of her parents' relationship that maxal mentioned might be what broke her. 

 

FYI, you do not need to put the fact Adolin murdered Sadeas as a spoiler. You can discuss anything pertaining WoR here without using them. It is assumed everyone here has read the book and those who haven't agreed to be spoiled.

 

Agree about the rest.

[Elsecaller3414 she/her]

I am sure that Elhokar will become a Surgebinder of some sort.  At Adolin's duel in WoR, he mentions seeing things with strange symbols for heads in the mirror, kind of like what happened to Shallan.  That is what tipped me off.

[Guest]

I am sure that Elhokar will become a Surgebinder of some sort.  At Adolin's duel in WoR, he mentions seeing things with strange symbols for heads in the mirror, kind of like what happened to Shallan.  That is what tipped me off.

 

Actually, I am rather convinced Elhokar is a failed Radiant. Spren were once interested in him, but they did not follow up as he lack the required mental strength to become one of them.

[Elsecaller3414 she/her]

Ah.  Good point.  I can see how that could be.

[Guest]

Ah.  Good point.  I can see how that could be.

 

It is not the only point to be made, but no matter how many Elhokar discussions I partake in, I just cannot see him as a Radiant. For various reasons. I thus think he was initially chosen, but failed to pass the test. Why him? Kohlins attract a lot of sprens... It makes sense sprens would have investigate all the Kohlins... except perhaps Adolin.

[Elsecaller3414 she/her]

Yeah, not entirely sure why Adolin wasn't chosen.  Elhokar had great potential as a king (or possibly future king, depending on the time), but I think he blew it because he was so whiny and "oh, I'm helpless, and the world is going to end" all the time.  Although, if Elhokar was rejected by the spren, why does he still see them in the mirror?

[Guest]

Yeah, not entirely sure why Adolin wasn't chosen.  Elhokar had great potential as a king (or possibly future king, depending on the time), but I think he blew it because he was so whiny and "oh, I'm helpless, and the world is going to end" all the time.  Although, if Elhokar was rejected by the spren, why does he still see them in the mirror?

 

My thoughts are Adolin was not chosen because of two reasons.

 

1) He is not broken. All the sprens we have seen so far have gone for individuals not only befitting their criterion, but also broken. No sprens would take the chance of choosing an unbroken individual, no matter how virtuous as the chance of falling in the bonding are high: without at least a crack, the Nahel bond cannot happen. Adolin has many good qualities, but his soul is too intact for the Nahel bond. The Golden Child of the Kohlin family may very well be the only one to have grown into adulthood without a crack in his soul, though I do think he has a few scratches here and there, but nothing sufficient. Not now.

 

2) He is too invested in his dead-Blade. Of all Shardbearers we have seen, Adolin appears to be the only one to arbor such a privilege relationship with his Blade. He figured a long time ago the Blade was bigger then him, he caught on it most likely was a living thing. He talks to it, he personified it, but always with respect. He refused to name her, not because he thought the Blade did not deserve a name, but because he knows he does know the right one. He is so close to the truth it is nearly heartbreaking. The contrast with Dalinar is almost shocking. Despite being bonded for more than thirty years to Oathbringer, Dalinar never saw it as anything more then a useful tool. He had no qualm giving it up and never expressed any second feelings on his actions. Now try to imagine Adolin giving up his Blade........... As long as he invest in his dead-Blade, no live sprens are ever going to come near him: they hate Shardbearers.

 

As for Elhokar, I think he has the potential to be a passable king in times of peace with proper tutoring, which he does not currently have. In times of war, he is inadequate. He is not inspiring nor is he a leader. I do not know if he could ever grow into one, but it does not look this way as of now. As for his sprens, they left the mirror. He saw them in WoK, but they left sometimes in WoR. My guess is they investigate him, but they left when they saw he was not resilient enough.

[Elsecaller3414 she/her]

So basically one can be honorable but not beffitting the spren because they are not broken.  Now that I think about it, I can see that with Adolin.  Though that brings me to another question.  When the Surgebinders hear the screams in their heads, is that from the Shardblade, or is it from their bonded spren?

[Guest]

They hear the scream of their dead-Blades, not of their live ones. Each time they are summon, the dead-Blades require 10 seconds to be revive and each time they are brought within a circle of agony. Normal Shardbearer do not hear them, but Radiants do. It is why it is so tragic for Adolin: he is unknowingly torturing a Blade he loves and cares for.

[Elsecaller3414 she/her]

Yeah.  Pretty sad.  If only he knew...

[edgedancing]

He might find out though won't he? I'm pretty sure Dalinar must know since the Stormfather refused to be his Shardblade - easy enough to draw the conclusions from there that all Shardblades were once spren.

[Guest]

He might find out though won't he? I'm pretty sure Dalinar must know since the Stormfather refused to be his Shardblade - easy enough to draw the conclusions from there that all Shardblades were once spren.

 

I am assuming either Dalinar or Renarin will tell him at some point. How will he take it though is up for grabs. My guess is not well, him and his nervous tic to keep on summoning his Blade when stressed. He may start to angst over hurting a weapon he has come to personalize. 

[Elsecaller3414 she/her]

He likely will find out, and I don't think it will be easy for him.  He loves his blade, and trusts it to help him in battle and other things.  That information may crush him.

[Guest]

He likely will find out, and I don't think it will be easy for him.  He loves his blade, and trusts it to help him in battle and other things.  That information may crush him.

 

My thoughts have been for a while that Adolin will struggle with his Blade in the next book. Already, in WoR, he had a hard time making it remain solid while everyone else we have seen, including barely trained uncomfortable with his Blade for obvious reasons Renarin, use the command effortlessly. Yet, Adolin, the gifted swordsman and the talented shardbearer, is the one having a hard time with it. Go figure what it means.

 

After learning what Blades are, what if he freezes in battle, unable to send the command or unable to make it happen for fear of hurting his dead-spren? Just an idea I had going on in my mind.

[Elsecaller3414 she/her]

That is a very interesting point, and I hope it turns up in the next book so we can see what happens!

[Guest]

That is a very interesting point, and I hope it turns up in the next book so we can see what happens!

 

I have been given this failed Blade throwing scene a whole of thought recently. We have been given the impression forcing a Blade to remain solid was hard and yet the only individual we see actually struggle with it is Adolin. I have been wondering if we were going to see more of it due to circumstances. 

[Loni she/her]

I'm not sure agree with the theory that killing Sadeas is what breaks Adolin; I just don't see him feeling too guilty or upset by this. It's not his first killing by a long shot, and I don't think he views it as murder. Sadeas attacked his father, Adolin, and their troops (albeit passively) when he trapped them on the plateau. In light of this, the death is clean. (I think he erased his chalk and hid his actions, not out of guilt, in order to protect his father from further fighting with the other high princes.)

 

However, I am intrigued by the idea that his realization that his blade is a dead spren may be the breaking. Finding out that he has been torturing (the soul?) of a spren may drive him to the breaking point.

[Guest]

I'm not sure agree with the theory that killing Sadeas is what breaks Adolin; I just don't see him feeling too guilty or upset by this. It's not his first killing by a long shot, and I don't think he views it as murder. Sadeas attacked his father, Adolin, and their troops (albeit passively) when he trapped them on the plateau. In light of this, the death is clean. (I think he erased his chalk and hid his actions, not out of guilt, in order to protect his father from further fighting with the other high princes.)

 

However, I am intrigued by the idea that his realization that his blade is a dead spren may be the breaking. Finding out that he has been torturing (the soul?) of a spren may drive him to the breaking point.

 

Adolin broke his father's code and trust. It does not matter how justified he was of murdering Sadeas,he still went against the law and against everything his father has ever tried to teach him. Dalinar means everything to Adolin. When he was about to be slayed by Szeth, what were Adolin last thoughts? Father I am sorry. Sorry for what? Sorry for failing, sorry for getting myself killed, pick your guess. Adolin won't have a hard time processing the fact he killed someone, but he'll have a hard time processing going against his father. 

 

I also think we should not ignore the fact this may very well be Adolin's first kill outside the scope of war. Not to say he'll angst over the killing itself, but just a thought. He is no assassin.

 

Ah the Blade... no doubt he'll struggle swallowing that one.

[Elsecaller3414 she/her]

I hadn't ever really thought about the Dalinar part of Adolin's potential breakage, but that could definitely be a factor.  Adolin may or may not regret killing Sadeas, and I am thinking that he does not regret it.  Some friends worry (a little irrationally) that Sadeas will come back from the dead to haunt Adolin, but how would that happen?

 

And yes, I agree about the Blade.

[Guest]

I hadn't ever really thought about the Dalinar part of Adolin's potential breakage, but that could definitely be a factor.  Adolin may or may not regret killing Sadeas, and I am thinking that he does not regret it.  Some friends worry (a little irrationally) that Sadeas will come back from the dead to haunt Adolin, but how would that happen?

 

And yes, I agree about the Blade.

 

Sadeas is dead, dead. This was confirmed by Brandon. So you can tell your friends to spot worrying 

 

I think Dalinar will be a major factor in breaking down Adolin...  He may not regret killing Sadeas, but he will regret going against his father.

[Cumulus she/her]

If killing Sadeas is not enough to promote a bond, seeing everyone around him forge a bond with a spren will. The jealousy and envy may be enough. He may not regret killing Sadeas (I wouldn't), but hiding it and his guilt will most likely do the job.

As per the blade, I don't think he will need it long

 

Edit: oops maxal's comment was hidden from me. I obviously agree with you.

Edited April 30, 2015 by WeiryWriter
please don't double post, use the edit feature

[Elsecaller3414 she/her]

Jealousy, envy, guilt, etc.  Yes, that could definitely break even the greatest of people, in a sense.  Adolin may break because of going against his father, or because it seems that everyone around him is a Radiant.  I mean, his father, cousin, brother, captain of the guard and even his girlfriend are all Radiants, so... he probably feels left out.

 

Even though Sadeas is dead, that brings up another question: What will Ialai think, and will she try to assasinate Adolin or something for revenge?  She seems like such a scary person, and the kind of woman that would totally do that sort of thing.