Inter-Planetary Magic

[Okdes]

We've seen the effects on the Shards on various planets, so when Andolasium was whole, were all magic systems in effect?

 

I also have a theory that all types magic is universal across all planets, but only the planet housing the Shard generally has that Shard's Investure. I say this because Sanderson said anyone anywhere can use Hemalgury even though it is something of Ruin, and Nightblood can drain any type of Investure. Also, any person can gain Breaths (As implied by Hoid in WoR, as well as the implication he is an Allomancer) and all worlds of the Cosmere have a Cognitive Realm (As stated by Sanderson).  

 

That's all I got for now. 

 

I would feel unaccomplished in leaving without some form of a joke, so here it is: We should force Lightsong, Shallan, and Vin to stay in a tiny room together and see who can make the best insult after a few hours. It would be interesting.

[laxrulz777]

My understanding is the various magics are localized to the planet based on the way the residents have had their sDNA mixed. Hemallurgy isn't "of Ruin" it actually predates Ruin and Ruin simply has more affinity for it then Preservation.

 

The origin of the various magics is a bit muddled but I think the main thinking and the implications from WoB is that they're from Adonalsium

 

Welcome to the boards!

[KamorianKandra]

I have always assumed that most of the magic systems were created after Adonalsium shattered.

For instance, Allomancy was started from Lerasium, which is from Preservation. This seems to me as though the magic was developed after the Shattering.

This is not to say this is the same for each magic system, however.

This is just my idea though. It is very likely that it is incorrect.

[Lord Pifferdoo]

Doesn't the planet determines the focus of the magic system (Scadrial = Metal, Sel = Geography) and then the Shard that powers the magic determines how it is interpreted? 

 

Individuals get the energy from Shards when the magic is end-positive, and return it to the Shards when the magic is end-negative. 

 

(Generally)

Edited March 12, 2015 by Lord Pifferdoo

[laxrulz777]

The full WoB on this that I think is most commanding is this

 

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works."

 

The metallic arts predate ruin/preservation

 

 

Individuals get the energy from Shards when the magic is end-positive, and return it to the Shards when the magic is end-negative. 

 

(Generally)

I've not heard this interpretation... it fits with Brandon's general "keep within physics" theme but it seems unlikely to mesh with what we've seen (it could be possible, however).

[Moogle]

My understanding is the various magics are localized to the planet based on the way the residents have had their sDNA mixed. Hemallurgy isn't "of Ruin" it actually predates Ruin and Ruin simply has more affinity for it then Preservation.

 

The origin of the various magics is a bit muddled but I think the main thinking and the implications from WoB is that they're from Adonalsium

 

Welcome to the boards!

 

This WoB I think is against the idea that the big formal Shardic magics existed pre-Shattering:

Phantine ()

Are there any magic systems in the cosmere that aren't shard based?

Brandon Sanderson

This depends on definitions. The effects of Adonalsium permeate everything, and Adonalsium is also the source of the Shards. It is possible to find a magic that isn't DIRECTLY powered by a specific shard, however, though most of these would have been set up before the shattering and would be much smaller in scope than things like Allomancy and Surgebinding.

(source)

 

---

 

The full WoB on this that I think is most commanding is this

 

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works."

 

The metallic arts predate ruin/preservation

 

I've not heard this interpretation... it fits with Brandon's general "keep within physics" theme but it seems unlikely to mesh with what we've seen (it could be possible, however).

 

I think you're misinterpreting the WoB. I think the WoB says that the Metallic Arts came about due to interactions between Scadrial and Preservation/Ruin. It's against the idea of the system being crafted intentionally, but still supports the idea that it arose due to those Shards.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Moogle

[natc]

I have always assumed that most of the magic systems were created after Adonalsium shattered.

For instance, Allomancy was started from Lerasium, which is from Preservation. This seems to me as though the magic was developed after the Shattering.

This is not to say this is the same for each magic system, however.

This is just my idea though. It is very likely that it is incorrect.

As far as we know the original nobles from the birth of the Final Empire are the first recorded lerasium Mistborn in Scadrial. Mistings long predate that, possibly by thousands of years depending on how many times the Well of Ascension has been used up and refilled, as the primary way to pinpoint the well other than asking the Terris is by bronzepulses.

Alendi, in particular, was most certainly a Misting during an era when the existence of allomancy wasn't even known. I doubt that to be possible if the population had a prior lerasium influx.

[laxrulz777]

I've been taking these two WoB together

 

Phantine ()

Are there any magic systems in the cosmere that aren't shard based?

Brandon Sanderson
This depends on definitions. The effects of Adonalsium permeate everything, and Adonalsium is also the source of the Shards. It is possible to find a magic that isn't DIRECTLY powered by a specific shard, however, though most of these would have been set up before the shattering and would be much smaller in scope than things like Allomancy and Surgebinding.

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works."

To mean that the shards don't set them up but the shards DO power them. And that he was trying to make it clear that since Adonalsium was the source of the shards and all the magics were from Adonalsium that even places like First of the Sun were, in some ways, powered by the shards (although maybe not "powered DIRECTLY by a specific shard...")

 

I also think the shards are how people's sDNA gets rewired (which explains why Threnody and First of the Sun can have magic without humans actively being able to use it).

 

I think we also know generally that Investiture is a separate thing from the Shards

 

Q:  What you can tell me about Investiture?

A:  That is the word for someone or something which has gained a portion of the magic of Adonalsium, so the original whatever-it-is.  Like a Shardblade is an Invested object, and people if they draw in the Stormlight, they're drawing in the magic-they're Invested.

 and, finally (more to OPs original question) there's this WoB

 

Q:  Can Breath be used to power Surgebinding?

A:  They are very similar Investitures, and most of the magics can be powered with the other magics if you are capable of making that happen.

and

Q:  [Paraphrased]In order to use magic from one world on another world, do they need a bit of [the first world's] Shard with you?

A:  It helps a lot.  But there are other ways to do it.  What's going on in the Cosmere is people have 3 sets of DNA.  They have Physical DNA, Spiritual DNA, and Cognitive DNA.  Their Spiritual DNA is what encodes the magic system into them, their Investiture.  So if you can find a way to rewrite your Spiritual DNA, you can do all kinds of funky things.  That's what Hemalurgy does.  It rips off a piece of someone else's soul, staples it to yours.  So if you went with a Hemalurgic spike to the right place, ripped off a piece of someone's soul and stapled it to yourself, you could create short circuits that will let you do all kinds of goofy stuff.

these help to kind of explain where Brandon's going with his "cross-system" magic.

 

There's a lot we don't know about it

Edited March 12, 2015 by laxrulz777

[Moogle]

"It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it."

 

I'm not sure I get how you're interpreting this to mean the magics came from Adonalsium. The gods who created the world of Scadrial were Ruin and Preservation.

 

I think we also know generally that Investiture is a separate thing from the Shards

 

Uh, I'm not sure I'd agree here. Shards themselves are basically gigantic blobs of Investiture. When they Invest in a planet, it infuses everything, and sometimes the Investiture they're made of is purposefully Splintered. Syl is a fragment of Honor, and when she's a Shardblade she's basically Investiture-made-solid. She's of Honor. Shardblades consist of "pure" Honor-Investiture. But still, this doesn't mean Investiture in general is separate from Shards.

 

The Shards themselves, the Investiture they're made of, was once all part of Adonalsium before it Shattered. So yes, Syl is technically of Adonalsium, but it is much more accurate to say she's of Honor, at least in my mind.

 

I may be horribly misinterpreting you, but basically my position is that pre-Shattering, most magics didn't exist, and the magic systems that have arisen on the worlds we've seen are a result of the Shards putting massive amounts of Investiture onto (into?) them and basically becoming a part of the planets.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Moogle

[Lord Pifferdoo]

Investiture is ice cream, and the Shards flavor that ice cream. 

 

Preservation is like a strawberry with strawberry chunks that's so cold mist pours off of it

Ruin is like really sugary double chocolate brownie mix

Honor is vanilla

Cultivation is like a weird health ice cream with protein mix and vitamins

Endowment is like a rainbow sherbet

Devotion is like a mint-chip

Dominion is chocolate-chip cookie dough

The Survival Shard is the sugar-free, no artificial flavors ice cream that no-one buys

 

And Odium is made out of horsemeat and tears.

[natc]

Investiture is ice cream, and the Shards flavor that ice cream.

Preservation is like a strawberry with strawberry chunks that's so cold mist pours off of it

Ruin is like really sugary double chocolate brownie mix

Honor is vanilla

Cultivation is like a weird health ice cream with protein mix and vitamins

Endowment is like a rainbow sherbet

Devotion is like a mint-chip

Dominion is chocolate-chip cookie dough

The Survival Shard is the sugar-free, no artificial flavors ice cream that no-one buys

And Odium is made out of horsemeat and tears.

Adonalsium is . . . pure ice cream then?

What does pure ice cream actually taste like anyway? Nobody sells it.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

more like a multi flavour ice-cream that contains all of the above.

[laxrulz777]

I'm not sure I get how you're interpreting this to mean the magics came from Adonalsium. The gods who created the world of Scadrial were Ruin and Preservation.

The pronouns in the most relevant WoB are... mixed (an object lesson in why writers write rather than speak). I was (maybe incorrectly) interpreting it this way:

 

"No, not at all. [Hemallurgy], like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and [the planet's] interaction with the gods who created [the magic]."

 

And since Ruin and Preservation didn't create the magic, I was assuming this meant there was another creative force that had sort of "set it all up".

 

But this sort of conflicts (at least in spirit) with the other quote... So now I'm reading it as

 

"No, not at all. [Hemallurgy], like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and [the planet's] interactino with [Ruin and Preservation] who created [the planet]."

 

The logical conclusion from this being that the Shards can create planets and ecosystems but can't intentionally craft magic (with a logical implication being that they lack the knowledge to know how a particular choice in creating a planet will affect the magic later). Their presence then suffuses the planet and creates a magic system (influenced by both them and the planet's properties).

 

The Shards themselves, the Investiture they're made of, was once all part of Adonalsium before it Shattered. So yes, Syl is technically of Adonalsium, but it is much more accurate to say she's of Honor, at least in my mind.

 

I think this is still an open question. We know that Spren predate the planet

 

 

A:  They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness.  But, the Seons are self-aware.  So, any piece. For instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there.  Those were already splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own.  So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense?  You have seen other Splinters.

 

But we also know that Honor and Cultivation had an affect on the Spren and that things changed even further upon Honor's shattering. Where that puts Honorspren in the continuum is unclear (I tend to agree with you... whatever little piece of pure Adonalsium they may have had is probably dwarfed by the pure piece of Honor they have... but it's not clear).

[Moogle]

But we also know that Honor and Cultivation had an affect on the Spren and that things changed even further upon Honor's shattering. Where that puts Honorspren in the continuum is unclear (I tend to agree with you... whatever little piece of pure Adonalsium they may have had is probably dwarfed by the pure piece of Honor they have... but it's not clear).

 

To clarify on my thoughts: Adonalsium is not separate from the Shards, in my mind. The Shards are Splinters of Adonalsium. To go into the (debunked?) analogy of Shardic Lens theory, imagine Adonalsium as a bright white light, and each Shard as a color of the rainbow you get by putting that light through a prism. I'm not saying Syl has pure-Adonalsium as a part of her, I'm saying she's of Honor, and Honor is in turn of Adonalsium.

 

So there being spren on Roshar pre-Shattering is absolutely fine. Adonalsium just did the same thing H+C did, and left some of his power behind (which he likely had no choice about, given how Odium can't leave Roshar without leaving some of his power behind), which formed spren due to the interactions between Investiture and the planet. H+C in turn left some of their power behind, causing new spren to form from their power. Nothing really indicates they changed the spren already there (though I've got suspicions on the Stormfather), they just in turn added to the background Investiture of the planet left behind by Adonalsium (or which came to exist without it?).

 

I imagine Cucicesh, the weird face-changing spren, is an Adonalsiumspren, for example. No H+C+O in it.

 

We don't know for sure, but that's what I'm thinking is likely for the moment.

[natc]

more like a multi flavour ice-cream that contains all of the above.

Well, yeah, I guess only two of the known shards actually cancel each other out, so the complete Adonalsium chunk would actually be skewed towards certain things.

But seriously, what does pure ice cream taste like?

[Paragrin]

Like cream. It's really good.

[WindrunnerRadiant]

To clarify on my thoughts: Adonalsium is not separate from the Shards, in my mind. The Shards are Splinters of Adonalsium. To go into the (debunked?) analogy of Shardic Lens theory, imagine Adonalsium as a bright white light, and each Shard as a color of the rainbow you get by putting that light through a prism. I'm not saying Syl has pure-Adonalsium as a part of her, I'm saying she's of Honor, and Honor is in turn of Adonalsium.

 

So there being spren on Roshar pre-Shattering is absolutely fine. Adonalsium just did the same thing H+C did, and left some of his power behind (which he likely had no choice about, given how Odium can't leave Roshar without leaving some of his power behind), which formed spren due to the interactions between Investiture and the planet. H+C in turn left some of their power behind, causing new spren to form from their power. Nothing really indicates they changed the spren already there (though I've got suspicions on the Stormfather), they just in turn added to the background Investiture of the planet left behind by Adonalsium (or which came to exist without it?).

 

I imagine Cucicesh, the weird face-changing spren, is an Adonalsiumspren, for example. No H+C+O in it.

 

We don't know for sure, but that's what I'm thinking is likely for the moment.

 

With this in mind, can we think of Syl as a form of evolved spren created due to Honor's influence on Roshar?

[natc]

Like cream. It's really good.

I see.

I honestly doubt Syl is all that special.

[Moogle]

With this in mind, can we think of Syl as a form of evolved spren created due to Honor's influence on Roshar?

 

No clue! Maybe? I'm not sure if she as a spren evolved from a windspren or something, or if a chunk of Honor's body coasting through the Spiritual just one day turned into a Syl or what.

[Blaze1616]

I'm not sure if she as a spren evolved from a windspren or something...

 

Huh...?

Windspren is evolving!

 

doo doo

doo doo

doo doo

doo doooo

doo doo

doo doo

doo doo

doo doooo

doo doo

doo doo

doo doo

doo doooo

doo doo

doo doo

doo doo

doo doooo

 

Baa baa baa

BaaDaaDaa Baabaa

Baa Daaaaaaa

 

Congratulations!

Your Windspren evolved into Honorspren!

[Suspense]

No clue! Maybe? I'm not sure if she as a spren evolved from a windspren or something, or if a chunk of Honor's body coasting through the Spiritual just one day turned into a Syl or what.

Actually, I find this idea kind of compelling (even with the pokemon jokes.)  Many spren, like windspren, seem to be mindless manifestations of natural forces.  If one of these spren were to somehow gain additional investiture, could that push them over the line into sentience?  (Similar to mistwraiths gaining spikes to become kandra.)  And, if this is correct, maybe the source of that additional investiture colors what type of spren they become?