Who Is Actually A Radiant?

[Rade]

There are two main points I want to make here:

1) Just because they call eachother Knights Radiant does not mean that they have some mystical sense of how one of them has reached a certain tipping point from apprentice to full Knight. They might just be calling eachother this because they're Surgebinders and they intend to speak the old oaths once again. From how easily Dalinar first simply gave Amaram the position of a Knight Radiant, there is probably a lot that he doesn't understand about them. (I'm just using that as one example, there are others.)

2) I would hazard a couple more guesses about prospective Knights Radiant: Szeth-son-son Vallano as a Dustbringer, and Adoin Kholin as a Skybreaker. There are, yet again, two main reasons for each of these guesses.

--Adolin Kholin #1: He acts very confidently, and talks about dueling to punish the opponents of his father who are refusing to obey his commands and are siding with Sadeas. If I remember correctly, Shallan even noted how confidently he do everything when they met in the restaurant. In the Ars Arcanum, the two main traits for the Skybreakers are Just/Confident.

--Adolin Kholin #2: He does the just thing instead of strictly according with the law and *SPOILER* (I've been away a while and forgot how to put spoiler tags into my text, sorry about that, going to put a couple spaces here instead.)

crushes Sadeas like a squirming little bug. I know that Skybreakers do go strictly by the law, but for a potential act, it bodes promise. He did have the right to duel Sadeas, he just did it a bit sooner than the required date.

--Szeth Vallano #1: Above all, Szeth was obedient and...if not precisely willing or eager until the end, he was courageous in what he did. Bold and Obedient, the two specifications for Dustbringers in the the Ars Arcanum.

--Szeth Vallano #2: After all he's been through, does anybody really think that he would ever be able to pass judgement on others regardless of his feelings? Even though he obeyed his personal code, he most definitely did not obey the law, or even do necessarily just things. At least Sadeas earned what he received.

[jefftucker0525]

 

 

-Adolin Kholin #1: He acts very confidently, and talks about dueling to punish the opponents of his father who are refusing to obey his commands and are siding with Sadeas. If I remember correctly, Shallan even noted how confidently he do everything when they met in the restaurant. In the Ars Arcanum, the two main traits for the Skybreakers are Just/Confident. 

--Adolin Kholin #2: He does the just thing instead of strictly according with the law and *SPOILER* (I've been away a while and forgot how to put spoiler tags into my text, sorry about that, going to put a couple spaces here instead.)

Honestly i have Adolin pinned as another Windrunner, whenever more Honorspren decide to Bond. Bescause of your points. He does what is JUST what is RIGHT, not what is lawful. This is really how Windrunners operate.

[dvoraen]

Honestly i have Adolin pinned as another Windrunner, whenever more Honorspren decide to Bond. Bescause of your points. He does what is JUST what is RIGHT, not what is lawful. This is really how Windrunners operate.

Yes, but what he did to Sadeas was by no means the "right" thing.  It was cold-blooded murder, something that even Kaladin avoided in the end, though he was sorely tempted with Amaram.  I think we'll find that Adolin leans more towards Stoneward or Releaser, if he ends up a Radiant, but that's strictly a guess.  The alternative, Edgedancer, would be if he is actually somehow forming a bond with his Shardblade.

Edited March 11, 2015 by dvoraen

[laxrulz777]

Yes, but what he did to Sadeas was by no means the "right" thing.  It was cold-blooded murder, something that even Kaladin avoided in the end, though he was sorely tempted with Amaram.  I think we'll find that Adolin leans more towards Stoneward or Releaser, if he ends up a Radiant, but that's strictly a guess.  The alternative, Edgedancer, would be if he is actually somehow forming a bond with his Shardblade.

I agree with you. Almost certainly not a Windrunner. We also have a WoB that says the Willshaper's would have approved of his action so that's a thin possibility. Frankly, I'm leaning much more towards Releaser if anything (and that's a big if).

 

For my money, I consider the following to be Radiants

Jasnah, Kaladin, Shallan, Renarin, Dalinar... None of them are progressed as far as they can (and presumably will) go but all of them are actively talking to their Spren with full awareness of what that means (we aren't 100% certain of this in Jasnah's case but I think it's safe to assume) and heading towards that goal.

 

I am intrigued by Dalinar's situation. There's no mentionin the histories regarding the Bondsmith of them not having swords. So one presumes that this is a result of the Recreance and the Stormfather's bitterness towards humans. That would seem to indicate that he might change his mind. Guess we'll see.

[maxal]

There are two main points I want to make here:

1) Just because they call eachother Knights Radiant does not mean that they have some mystical sense of how one of them has reached a certain tipping point from apprentice to full Knight. They might just be calling eachother this because they're Surgebinders and they intend to speak the old oaths once again. From how easily Dalinar first simply gave Amaram the position of a Knight Radiant, there is probably a lot that he doesn't understand about them. (I'm just using that as one example, there are others.)

2) I would hazard a couple more guesses about prospective Knights Radiant: Szeth-son-son Vallano as a Dustbringer, and Adoin Kholin as a Skybreaker. There are, yet again, two main reasons for each of these guesses.

--Adolin Kholin #1: He acts very confidently, and talks about dueling to punish the opponents of his father who are refusing to obey his commands and are siding with Sadeas. If I remember correctly, Shallan even noted how confidently he do everything when they met in the restaurant. In the Ars Arcanum, the two main traits for the Skybreakers are Just/Confident.

--Adolin Kholin #2: He does the just thing instead of strictly according with the law and *SPOILER* (I've been away a while and forgot how to put spoiler tags into my text, sorry about that, going to put a couple spaces here instead.)

crushes Sadeas like a squirming little bug. I know that Skybreakers do go strictly by the law, but for a potential act, it bodes promise. He did have the right to duel Sadeas, he just did it a bit sooner than the required date.

--Szeth Vallano #1: Above all, Szeth was obedient and...if not precisely willing or eager until the end, he was courageous in what he did. Bold and Obedient, the two specifications for Dustbringers in the the Ars Arcanum.

--Szeth Vallano #2: After all he's been through, does anybody really think that he would ever be able to pass judgement on others regardless of his feelings? Even though he obeyed his personal code, he most definitely did not obey the law, or even do necessarily just things. At least Sadeas earned what he received.

 

Skybreakers have been ruled out by Brandon. He broke the law, they would not want Adolin. For myself, I have now decided to jump into the Edgedancer's bandwagon. Once you give it more than a few seconds of thought, it is amazing how well it befits him. So many little clues scattered here and there for those liking to chase wild gooses.

 

Somehow, I strangely like the idea of Szeth as a Dustbringer. I have no argument to support it, but my inner feelings are happier with this possibility then Skybreaker, though I am routing for him not to become a Radiant at all.

[laxrulz777]

Skybreakers have been ruled out by Brandon. He broke the law, they would not want Adolin. For myself, I have now decided to jump into the Edgedancer's bandwagon. Once you give it more than a few seconds of thought, it is amazing how well it befits him. So many little clues scattered here and there for those liking to chase wild gooses.

 

Somehow, I strangely like the idea of Szeth as a Dustbringer. I have no argument to support it, but my inner feelings are happier with this possibility then Skybreaker, though I am routing for him not to become a Radiant at all.

I feel like there's a decent chance that Naln has become a Voidbinder, is trying to bring Szeth over to that side and we'll see Szeth in a redemptive arc over the next N books. That's not guaranteed. I'm willing to accept that Naln is just a really twisted Skybreaker but, I think it fits better the other way.

[hoser]

The murder is interesting. He considers it throughout the book, but never really plans it, so is it premeditated? It seems as hotblooded as can be, in execution. I really wonder about Odious influence.

As for the Radiant question, I've been assuming that the thread purpose was to figure out who was a Radiant by some sort of canonical in-world POV. While I generally like laxrulz777's list, I find myself doubting Renarin. He hasn't manifested Glys as a sword and seems comparable to Kaladin when he and Syl did not consider him yet a Radiant.

Edited March 11, 2015 by hoser

[maxal]

The murder is interesting. He considers it throughout the book, but never really plans it, so is it premeditated? It seems as hotblooded as can be, in execution. I really wonder about Odious influence.

As for the Radiant question, I've been assuming that the thread purpose was to figure out who was a Radiant by some sort of canonical in-world POV. While I generally like laxrulz777's list, I find myself doubting Renarin. He hasn't manifested Glys as a sword and seems comparable to Kaladin when he and Syl did not consider him yet a Radiant.

 

He didn't plan to murder Sadeas. He wanted all book long to let his anger roam free as it is much easier then to control it and he has a hard time processing strong emotions. However, he would most likely never has resolved himself to do it had not very specific conditions presented themselves at the right moment. Not premeditated though, not like Jasnah.

 

Renarin hears his Blade scream. Dalinar was not able to hear his Blade scream until he said two oaths back to back at the end of WoR. We do not know which oath triggered the scream: the first or the second. However, since Renarin hears the scream since early WoR, it is safe to assume he has said, to the very least, the first oath.

 

Renarin knows he is a Truthwatcher. Syl was not able to give this crucial information to Kaladin until he said the second oath. All sprens are different and all orders are different. It does not mean anything, but it sure points towards Renarin having said the second oath at some time in WoR.

 

Renarin has powerful visions and heals himself. These seem to indicate he has spoken more than the first oath as Kaladin, after the first oath, could not do much more. However, it is not conclusive.

 

The fact Renarin does not have a living Blade means nothing. Brandon stated orders got their Blades at different stages. For all we know, he may not be getting it until he says the fifth oath.

 

Overall, in text indications support the claim Renarin has spoken to the very least the first oath and quite probably the second oath. I would not be surprised if he has said the third one either, we just do not know. In any cases, it would rank him at Dalinar's level, though since he has been a "Radiant" for much longer, I would put him ahead of Dalinar, but this is of course my own personal interpretation of the text. It is not supported by any other arguments then those I have listed. You may disagree.

 

The question should therefore be: "Can an individual not having said the five oaths be considered a Radiant?" If the answer is yes, then Renarin is a Radiant. If the answer is no, then nobody is a Radiant.

[laxrulz777]

The question should therefore be: "Can an individual not having said the five oaths be considered a Radiant?" If the answer is yes, then Renarin is a Radiant. If the answer is no, then nobody is a Radiant.

I agree. This is the only relevant question at the moment. We don't really have any evidence to support anything else. I tend to be in the "speaking an oath and getting a spren makes you a knight" camp. But I respect people that say there are none right now.

[hoser]

I am looking for canonical in-world POV.  I would argue that Kaladin and Syl not considering Kaladin a Radiant at level 2, but Kaladin saying "The Knights Radiant ... have returned," immediately upon saying the third oath, accompanied by magical glyphs seems really strong.  

The second strongest evidence I see is the pre-4th level conversation between Shallan and Pattern. 

"It is time," he repeated.  "The Ghostbloods circle you.  The people need a Radiant."

"They have one.  The bridgeboy."

"Not enough.  They need you."

He ...

 

Overall, in text indications support the claim Renarin has spoken to the very least the first oath and quite probably the second oath. I would not be surprised if he has said the third one either, we just do not know. In any cases, it would rank him at Dalinar's level, though since he has been a "Radiant" for much longer, I would put him ahead of Dalinar, but this is of course my own personal interpretation of the text. It is not supported by any other arguments then those I have listed. You may disagree.

 

The question should therefore be: "Can an individual not having said the five oaths be considered a Radiant?" If the answer is yes, then Renarin is a Radiant. If the answer is no, then nobody is a Radiant.

I find your analysis of Renarin's level to be excellent. 

The last paragraph makes no sense to me.  From the in-world perspective of both the spren and the humans, an individual at less than 5th level can definitely be considered a Radiant. 

Renarin does not apparently manifest a sword (remember, Shallan was apparently not a Radiant even when she had manifested a sword), nor has he been effective at anything except healing his eyesight.  The level at which one is considered a Radiant seems to vary by order, but neither order that we have seen (Lightweaver and Windrunner) are Radiants at level 2. 

I consider that a titular Radiant will demonstrate some degree of effectiveness.  In a crisis, breaking down and writing 0s on the wall does not mark the level of effectiveness that would mark someone who had passed an important threshold to become a titular Radiant.  While Dalinar seems to be at a comparable level to Renarin oathwise, he is clearly more effective and Bondsmiths could become titular Radiants at level 2. 

I see no in-text evidence supporting the contention that Renarin should be considered to have achieved the title of Radiant. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by hoser

[Vaspin]

I don't think any of them are Radiants yet. The Knights Radiant are the Ideals they speak, it doesn't seem right to bear the tittle if all the respsective Immortal Words are not spoken. Kaladin has considered himself a Radiant on at least three occasions, albeit one was a stall tactic. Someone already mentioned Dalinar placing the title on Amaram, and then looking for others after that fell through. Pattern actually says Shallan is not a Radiant at the end of WoR. Jasnah made a good point claiming she wasn't one, stating the Order is a now defunct organization. Her view is one of a cynic, but it still holds outside of her cynicism. 

 

The Knights Radiant had beliefs and convictions that they lived by, we assume. Watching Kaladin has made it clear he does not know the meaning of being a Windrunner yet. His mess of the third oath should be looked at as him growing to be the Radiant he is meant to be, but evidence he is not there yet. Same goes for Shallan. She is deep in denial concerning her life, which has shown to stunt and reverse her progression. The characters use the word freely because they have a partial understanding of the Knights Radiant. Not to far in the distant past everyone called them the Lost Radiants. Radiants is a term they are familiar with, but I'm sure if an actual Radiant were to look upon them, he'd simply call them all surgebinders

[jefftucker0525]

 

Yes, but what he did to Sadeas was by no means the "right" thing.  It was cold-blooded murder, something that even Kaladin avoided in the end, though he was sorely tempted with Amaram.  I think we'll find that Adolin leans more towards Stoneward or Releaser, if he ends up a Radiant, but that's strictly a guess.  The alternative, Edgedancer, would be if he is actually somehow forming a bond with his Shardblade.

 

I dont see how killing Sadeas wasnt the right thing to do. Everything that Sadeas did helped undermine the Alethi society in some way, small or large. He tried to kill Dalinar, someone who as far as im concerned is going to be needed big time in the up coming fight (im not saying he will actually be fighting just that he will play a big role) His crimes are enough to make his death right and a necessity. It wasnt even cold-blooded murder. Adolin may not have not the right thing for the right reason, but it was definitely the righ thing to do none the less.

Edited March 12, 2015 by jefftucker0525

[natc]

It really kind of is just a title. A title that shares the same qualifications as a fully-powered surgebinder due to the enforced system, but a title bestowed by an organization nonetheless. A true Radiant will be a full-powered surgebinder, but the reverse is a different matter, in my opinion.

Like every Catholic Saint being a follower of Christianity 100% of the time by definition but even some of the most devout of people may not be Saints simply because nobody has really gone and put them on the list. Of course in our case the list got set on fire, fed through a shredder, then scattered out in the ocean, and the people who made the list are 6 miles under, so they're just using a new sheet of paper and writing themselves onto it without quite knowing what they're doing.

[laxrulz777]

Like every Catholic Saint being a follower of Christianity 100% of the time by definition but even some of the most devout of people may not be Saints simply because nobody has really gone and put them on the list. Of course in our case the list got set on fire, fed through a shredder, then scattered out in the ocean, and the people who made the list are 6 miles under, so they're just using a new sheet of paper and writing themselves onto it without quite knowing what they're doing.

I lol'd too loud at this. Well said.

 

And I agree. The title of "Knight Radiant" is kind of defined however you want. Would the old KRs consider any of our heroes KRs? I suspect the answer to that is no. But does Dalinar consider himself a KR (and, by implication, everyone else)? I suspect yes. The only one that he might not consider a KR would be Ym. Ym didn't understand what he was and while Dalinar certainly would have liked the man and almost certainly would have tried to get him to BECOME a KR, I think a certain amount of self-awareness of the title is necessary for anyone. So Ym isn't on my list. In my mind, even Lift is suspect. But she seems further along oath-wise then some of the others so she falls into kind of a Limbo state but, if I had to wager money, I'd say she's not there yet. Her attitude just doesn't fit (for me at least).

 

Again, I totally understand and recognize the validity of the other camp (not a KR until all the words are said). It's just not a stand I personally agree with.

[maxal]

I dont see how killing Sadeas wasnt the right thing to do. Everything that Sadeas did helped undermine the Alethi society in some way, small or large. He tried to kill Dalinar, someone who as far as im concerned is going to be needed big time in the up coming fight (im not saying he will actually be fighting just that he will play a big role) His crimes are enough to make his death right and a necessity. It wasnt even cold-blooded murder. Adolin may not have not the right thing for the right reason, but it was definitely the righ thing to do none the less.

 

It was the morally right thing to do (confirmed by Brandon when he states there is legitimate moral ground to justify Adolin's actions or this is how I interpret this specific WoB), but it was the legally wrong thing to do.

 

The problem is Adolin has placed himself in a situation where his actions violently clashes with Dalinar's idea of morality while being illegal. I do not think he was psychologically ready (he acted on impulse) to take such a stand against his father and against his country even if he was right to do so.

 

Definitely fits within the "loving" and "healing" attributes of Edgedancers though.

[jefftucker0525]

 

 

 

It was the morally right thing to do (confirmed by Brandon when he states there is legitimate moral ground to justify Adolin's actions or this is how I interpret this specific WoB), but it was the legally wrong thing to do.

 

The problem is Adolin has placed himself in a situation where his actions violently clashes with Dalinar's idea of morality while being illegal. I do not think he was psychologically ready (he acted on impulse) to take such a stand against his father and against his country even if he was right to do so.

 

Definitely fits within the "loving" and "healing" attributes of Edgedancers though.

Exactly! thats my entire point, not the Edgedancer thing though that could be too. It was morally right, which is what the Windrunners are all about! I dont see Adolin ever being a Skybreaker because of the illegal act, but i see him as a Windrunner all day. Hes a warrior, he protects, he can be a great leader if he steps up to the plate (haha Shardplate), and he has great moral integrity. Thats Windrunner material imo, but feel free to disagree.

[Arondell]

It was the morally right thing to do (confirmed by Brandon when he states there is legitimate moral ground to justify Adolin's actions or this is how I interpret this specific WoB), but it was the legally wrong thing to do.

 

The problem is Adolin has placed himself in a situation where his actions violently clashes with Dalinar's idea of morality while being illegal. I do not think he was psychologically ready (he acted on impulse) to take such a stand against his father and against his country even if he was right to do so.

 

Definitely fits within the "loving" and "healing" attributes of Edgedancers though.

 

Whether it was the morally right thing to do is a matter of opinion.  Which is kind of the crux of the matter.  Every order of the Knights have differing opinions on the issue.  When trying to figure out if a particular order would or would not approve of a particular action we don't have a lot to go on but I would bet the oaths would be a pretty good guideline.  e.g. I don't think light weavers would be particularly bothered as a whole by Adolin's actions.  Skybreakers would disapprove because he broke the law.  I think a Windwalker would first ask was he protecting someone when he did it.

[laxrulz777]

Whether it was the morally right thing to do is a matter of opinion.  Which is kind of the crux of the matter.  Every order of the Knights have differing opinions on the issue.  When trying to figure out if a particular order would or would not approve of a particular action we don't have a lot to go on but I would bet the oaths would be a pretty good guideline.  e.g. I don't think light weavers would be particularly bothered as a whole by Adolin's actions.  Skybreakers would disapprove because he broke the law.  I think a Windwalker would first ask was he protecting someone when he did it.

THIS. A huge part of your bond is your intent and your belief. If Adolin truly believed (wasn't just justifying it to himself but actually believed) that killing Sadeas was the only way to protect those he'd sworn to protect then I don't think the Windrunner's would have a problem.

 

On the other hand, if his actions were born out of expedience, revenge or rationalized thoughts of protection then I doubt he could get an Honorspren.

 

I think, from what we know and the WoB, these are the orders he's still in the running for (barring a redemptive story about earning the rights to be something else back)

 

Duskbringer (definitely brave)

Willshaper (resolute... check)

Stoneward (dependable and resourceful... sure)

 

Lightweaver, Windrunner and Bondsmith might all be possible as well (though unlikely for story reasons) and Truthwatcher also might not care (as long as he doesn't lie to cover it up... )

 

Skybreaker is obvious out. I think Edgedancer (Loving and Healing? Remembering the fallen?) is out (though I realize others disagree... I'd be curious what the rationale is for that).

 

Elsecaller is probably out (it probably wans't a "wise" thing to do... and it certainly wasn't caring)... Although even here, you could convince me that it was "caring" in the same sense as putting down a rabid dog and it was "wise" because he had the realization of the political environment to recognize there was no other way... so, with the right mindset, maybe Elsecaller COULD be justified.

[Arondell]

Personally I think the Windrunners would be ruled out based on a combination of the oaths and Sylphrena's reaction to killing.  She seems to hate the idea of killing unless there is an immediate need.  Even then she doesn't like it.  It apparently "hurts" her in some fashion.  Killing someone because on past deeds or because of likely future actions seems to be anathema to her.   A Windrunner wants to protect and will only kill when there is no other option.  I had the impression that is a big part of the reason Mr. Sanderson just changed the climax to the Words of Radiance.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Arondell

[maxal]

Whether it was the morally right thing to do is a matter of opinion.  Which is kind of the crux of the matter.  Every order of the Knights have differing opinions on the issue.  When trying to figure out if a particular order would or would not approve of a particular action we don't have a lot to go on but I would bet the oaths would be a pretty good guideline.  e.g. I don't think light weavers would be particularly bothered as a whole by Adolin's actions.  Skybreakers would disapprove because he broke the law.  I think a Windwalker would first ask was he protecting someone when he did it.

 

True enough. However, I am of the opinion killing a known mass murderer promising his next victims will be your family is morally the right thing to do even if law does not permit it. That is of course my personal opinion and my personal feelings on the matter and whereas my own personal opinions weights next to nothing as an argument it makes me believe at least some spren would agree with me.

 

The question now is which ones?

 

Skybreakers are definitely ruled out. This has been confirmed by Brandon ages ago, though I am still amused to see so many new comers picking them as their first choice. It makes me think the average reader (by average reader I mean the one who loved the series but never ventured on the fandoms and thus never read the WoB nor the discussions) must be of this opinion.

 

Windrunners may not entirely be against it, but as someone else pointed out, they seemed to reject killing outside open confrontation. Sadeas did not physically threaten Adolin, he did not engage in combat which makes me think Syl would not approve, though I am unsure of this conclusion. In any cases, I do think Windrunners would not want Adolin for other reasons then the murder.

 

 

THIS. A huge part of your bond is your intent and your belief. If Adolin truly believed (wasn't just justifying it to himself but actually believed) that killing Sadeas was the only way to protect those he'd sworn to protect then I don't think the Windrunner's would have a problem.

 

On the other hand, if his actions were born out of expedience, revenge or rationalized thoughts of protection then I doubt he could get an Honorspren.

 

Adolin never once acted out of revenge or spite. He acted out of anger, but his anger was always rooted down to his deep love for his family and his fear some harm would come their way. I do not think he was in the mind frame to rationalize anything at the time of the murder. My thoughts are he got so overwhelmed by his fears Sadeas would succeed at destroying the father he loves so much all he saw was a definite threat needing to be removed. Now. So he acted. Deep down, his actions sprouted from love which triggered fear for the safety of those he loves and finally anger towards the man who would never stop tormenting them.

 

 

Duskbringer (definitely brave)

Willshaper (resolute... check)

Stoneward (dependable and resourceful... sure)

 

Lightweaver, Windrunner and Bondsmith might all be possible as well (though unlikely for story reasons) and Truthwatcher also might not care (as long as he doesn't lie to cover it up... )

 

Skybreaker is obvious out. I think Edgedancer (Loving and Healing? Remembering the fallen?) is out (though I realize others disagree... I'd be curious what the rationale is for that).

 

Elsecaller is probably out (it probably wans't a "wise" thing to do... and it certainly wasn't caring)... Although even here, you could convince me that it was "caring" in the same sense as putting down a rabid dog and it was "wise" because he had the realization of the political environment to recognize there was no other way... so, with the right mindset, maybe Elsecaller COULD be justified.

 

My initial thoughts have always been Dustbringers, because "brave and obedient" seemed like a no brainer for Adolin.

 

I have since changed my mind. I have been convinced to switch camp by a very good argumentation I have long been deaf to, too engrossed I was within my initial position I now think Adolin will be an Edgedancer.

 

My thoughts are now Adolin gives a false reading as a Dustbringer, because he is brave. However, if we look more closely, he is not brave for the shake of being brave. He is brave when push comes to shove, he is brave when someone needs to step up and, more importantly, he is brave when his loved ones are threaten. Dalinar once described him as "hotheaded". Another false reading. Adolin has not done one single reckless thing except his attempt to climb a vertical cliff while standing on his sword, but you can blame this one on youth and desire to impress a friend. He has acts impulsively when his emotional response to outside events gets too strong.

 

In other words, Dalinar, your son is not reckless nor hotheaded: he is emotional. Huge difference. It means he won't seek to jump down a cliff simply because he can as a true "brave heart" would, but he will willingly sacrifice his own life if it means safeguarding Dalinar or Renarin's life.

 

Besides, Kaladin is also brave, so is Dalinar, so is Shallan, so is Renarin and yet none are fit to be Dustbringers. Why? Because they are other driving qualities.

 

Which is Adolin most constant quality or attribute throughout both books? His love for his father. He literally worships him is way reminiscent of a little child not able to see fault in his beloved father. Love and desire to care for those he loves is very strong in him, to the point where he stops caring about his own life.

 

Based on this, I would say Adolin's main attribute is "loving" more then "brave".

 

The "healing" part is less obvious. I think we are being confused by the traditional definition of "healing", referring to physical "healing". Adolin, of course, is no healer, but he does something akin to "healing" all through both books... How? In his tendency to fix every single wrong around him. He sees a prostitute being molested? Wrong. He fixed it. He sees Kaladin being unjustly put into prison? Wrong. He fixed it. He fixes wrongs around him, which we could tie to "healing" as healing does not have to strictly refer to physical health.

 

The Edgedancer theory also got a jump forward recently with Brandon admitting his Blade once belonged to an Edgedancer...

Edited March 13, 2015 by maxal

[Aleksiel]

I think Kaladin made it very clear killing a man in the dark isn't the WR way and I very much doubt a WR would murder an unarmed man. 

 

I agree with maxal and Itoo think Adolin can be ED - he's so refined he wears cologne in prison, eloquent, elegant, nice clothes and fashion sense - all outside sings of an ED. He is loving and caring towards his family and men. He thinks about all soldiers, the little darkeyed boys (let one try his helm), he cares - for the men who died on Elhokar's hunt, for all those Sadeas got killed on the Tower. While Dalinar doesn't let himself grief or get emotional about fallen men, Adolin cares deeply and gets angry, he can't turn off his emotions.

 

A Shardblade could be revived if certain circumstances are met and Adolin has been talking to his for a long time, may be giving it some consciousness or awareness. He stopped feeling the Thrill and during his two fights with Szeth there's this Duck in italic that appears seemingly from nowhere - Blades get a little alive when summoned and when touched by a surgebinder, which didn't happen to Adolin's, but there might be something.

 

Notice how he hasn't named his Blade because he thinks it would be wrong to give it a wrong name - that some Radiant of old named it and it wasn't his place to call the Blade something else. ED are about remembering the forgotten as far as their second oath goes and Adolin's been remembering his mother. It's only fitting he gets to learn the real name of his Blade.

 

edit: spelling

Edited March 13, 2015 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

I agree with maxal and Itoo think Adolin can be ED - he's so refined he wears cologne in prison, eloquent, elegant, nice clothes and fashion sense - all outside sings of an ED. He is loving and caring towards his family and men. He thinks about all soldiers, the little darkeyed boys (let one try his helm), he cares - for the men who died on Elhokar's hunt, for all those Sadeas got killed on the Tower. While Dalinar doesn't let himself grief or get emotional about fallen men, Adolin cares deeply and gets angry, he can't turn off his emotions.

 

After the chasmfield hunt, Adolin is the one who mourns the dead soldiers. He worked for hours trying to fix the mayhem caused while everyone else lounged and relaxed. From his own admission, he would not have had it any other way as good soldiers and good friends died today.

 

In WoR, he mentions he cannot stare at Sadeas without feeling the same panic he felt at the Tower rise in him. He then goes on reciting the names of fallen soldiers, good men, good friends.

 

Adolin is also the one who carries on his mother's necklace as a keeps take and a good luck charm. Before his duel, he is happy to have his aunt fret over him as it reminds him of his mother...

 

In other words, Adolin remembers those who died, even when no one else would. One of the reason he gets so angry/impulsive is because he cares too much.

 

 

A Shardblade could be revived if certain circumstances are met and Adolin has been talking to his for a long time, may be giving it some consciousness or awareness. He stopped feeling the Thrill and during his two fights with Szeth there's this Duck in italic that appears seemingly from nowhere - Blades get a little alive when summoned and when touched by a surgebinder, which didn't happen to Adolin's, but there might be something.

 

My thoughts were he progressively rejected the Thrill... At first, he succumbed to it. Next, he resisted, wanting to keep a clear head, to concentrate. After his stay in prison, he could not summon it even when he wanted to. Somehow, I have always thought it was significant.

 

If Adolin indeed is slowly bonding his spren Blade, then I doubt it would scream at him.

 

 

 

Notice how he hasn't named his Blade because he thinks it would be wrong to give it a wrong name - that some Radiant of old named it and it wasn't his place to call the Blade something else. ED are about remembering the forgotten as far as their second oath goes and Adolin's been remembering his mother. It's only fitting he gets to learn the real name of his Blade.

 

Funny thing is Adolin has had the impulse to refuse to name his Blade for quite some time... Before there were any talks about the Radiants and Desolations, teenage Adolin though it inappropriate for him to be presumptuous enough to name his Blade. He did not feel at ease to chose a name.

 

Adolin has been remembering many things others have forgotten or deemed unimportant: his mother, his Blade's past, his dead soldiers... Not to mention he is an elegant talented fighter who would definitely fit within the "deadly fighter" and "fight like ribbons of wind on the battlefield" characteristics.

[Arondell]

I'm skeptical of Adolin being an Edgedancer as well.  The second oath of the Edgedancers are "I will remember those who are forgotten."  When has Adolin helped or expressed an intention to help others who are forgotten?  Lift did so on several occasions before she spoke the second oath.  I feel remembering the dead doesn't count since you can't do anything to help them.

 

Also I don't think the spren of the Edgedancers look for fighting ability as a primary characteristic.  Lift after all is a thief and is about as far from the descriptions of Edgedancers that we have been given as is possible to be.

 

I'm also skeptical of him (nahel)bonding the blade.  From the word of Brandon I recall he kind of described the breaking of the Knights Oaths as effectively ripping something out of the mind of the spren making the damage involved very difficult to fix.  The Cryptics apparently have tried and now think it might be possible if the sprens original Knights still lived.  Based on these descriptions I find it improbable that simply behaving like a radiant candidate and talking to the blade is anywhere near enough to fix the problem.  I would guess whatever part of the spren enabled the bond would have to be replaced before any bonding could happen.  I would not put this down as impossible but it would require something extraordinary even by Radiant standards. (Nightwatcher intervention maybe?)

[dvoraen]

See, I interpretted Lift's Second Ideal a bit more liberally, as something like this:

 

I will look out for those in need and unnoticed.  It's kind of hard for me to quantify what exactly is on my mind, but the question that led to her Oath is pretty telling: "Who would cry for him?"

 

Edgedancers are undoubtedly the Good Samaritan Order of Radiants; those who stick up for the little guy, or those who are suffering, down on their luck, or in general cast aside by everyone because they were "beneath notice" ('forgotten').  It doesn't seem like an accident that they have Progression as a Surge, not by any stretch of the imagination.  They can use it for healing and for accelerating plant growth for providing food to the hungry.

 

With respect to Adolin, he didn't strike me as dismissive of people (for example, the prostitute in the Way of Kings that he sticks up for), so I think it's possible he has Edgedancer qualities.  I think his general temperament leans more towards what we know of Stonewards, though (reliably stubborn; unwilling to stand down), but again I wouldn't be surprised if his (apparently Edgedancer) Shardblade pulled him to the same Order as Lift.  Plus, Adolin has somewhat begun to mirror his father in possibly attracting a Nahel spren.  Why do I say this?  His later reactions to the Thrill, where it was starting to induce nausea.

Edited March 14, 2015 by dvoraen

[natc]

Speaking of his dead blade, I would find it suspicious that full resurrection of a dead shardblade is specifically mentioned as "difficult" instead of impossible unless someone ends up doing so at some point. Just what would be needed though. I'm curious now.

The edgedancer theory has merit I guess.