Gaseous Investiture: A Discussion

[Blaze1616 he/him]

All righty, so I'm creating this thread to be a place to discuss gaseous investiture. This started due to a topic Moogle created regarding the Mists and metals in Allomancy, where he posed the following question:

 

A major consequence of the metals-as-Aons model is that is that Elantrians should be able to perform AonDor without drawing symbols in the air, simply by obtaining some gaseous Dor. I don't think they can, though. I would like any presented theories and ideas to explain why or why not Elantrians can use gaseous Dor without Aons to do AonDor.

 

This led me to thinking about gaseous investiture as a whole, as each of the major magic systems in the Cosmere that we've been shown make some mention of it. So let me begin this by discussing what knowledge we currently have.

 

What We Know

Spoilered for length.

To preface, here is a WoB:

source

Q. I know that there’s three sorts of forms that magic presents itself in, the liquid and the solid and air. What would Breath be?
A. Breath is definitely like Mist, it is in the form of the air.
Q. And is Stormlight the same?
A. Stormlight is the same. Good questions!

 

Allomancy and the Mists: I'll begin by going over the systems that have clearly made use of gaseous investiture.

What it feels like to hold the Mists (thanks to Moogle)

Vin gasped, drawing in breath—a breath that sucked in the mists. She felt suddenly warm, the mists surging within her, lending her their strength. Her entire body burned like metal, and the pain disappeared in a flash.
...

She felt as if the bleeding sun itself blazed within her, running molten through her veins.
...

An Inquisitor groaned beneath; she reached for him, and realized that her hand was leaking mist. It didn’t just swirl around her, it came from her, smoking forth from the pores in her skin.

 

The Mists power Allomancy specifically:

source

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

Emphasis mine

 

Vin may or may not be unique in that she can draw in the Mists:

source

Yet, the depth of complexity leads to some things that are confusing at first glance. I wasn’t planning on having Vin draw upon the mists in this book–I was going to save it for later–but the initial version of this chapter (which had Vin simply grabbing the bracelets off the Lord Ruler’s arms with her hands) lacked the proper drama or impact. So, I moved up my timetable, and gave her access to some abilities she wasn’t going to get until the next book.

 

The Mists do not enter closed structures, something Sazed comments on when traveling through that dead town.

 

The Mists are, to some degree, a natural occurence. There is some Shardic intervention, but for the most part the Mists come at night, and leave at day.

 

The Mists are abundant and easily accessible. When Vin is using the Mists, there is no sign of the supply running out.

 

Stormlight: Stormlight is the obvious gaseous investiture.

What it feels like to hold Stormlight (thanks again to Moogle):

Szeth breathed in deeply, drawing forth the Stormlight. It streamed into him, siphoned from the twin sapphire lamps on the walls, sucked in as if by his deep inhalation.

...

Szeth could feel the Light’s warmth, its fury, like a tempest that had been injected directly into his veins.

...

They could see that he was leaking Stormlight, wisps of it curling from his skin like luminescent smoke.

 

Stormlight only grants an individual access to two Surges. This is likely due to restrictions separate from Stormlight's properties, such as the restrictions between Mistings and Mistborn. This may or may not be similar to the Mists, as we've only seen a Mistborn utilize the Mists.

 

A nahel bond seems necessary to intake Stormlight (with some exceptions)

 

Stormlight also doesn't "stick around" like the Mists do, but rather "evaporates" away, somewhat like the Mists do in sunlight (at least originally).

 

Stormlight diffuses at different rates through different objects, which is something we don't get to see with the Mists. Stormlight diffuses out of the human body rather rapidly, but diffuses very slowly out of gems.

 

Stormlight does not enter closed structures. Rosharans must place their gems outside for the Stormlight to replenish.

 

Stormlight is a natural occurence. At least, there has been no evidence that it isn't that I can recall, and given that Stormlight is distributed via Highstorms, and Highstorms seem natural, I'd say it is a safe observation. There is probably some room for Shardic intervention, like the Mists.

 

Stormlight is abundant and easily accessible. When it comes, it comes in massive waves, filling all gems it can get its hands on. When Kaladin and Szeth are fighting in the Highstorm, it is all around them, and no matter how much Kaladin uses, it never shows signs of depleting.

 

Breath: Breath is interesting, because at first glance it seems like it is clearly gaseous investiture, but its behavior is a bit odd in comparison to the others.

What it feels like to hold [large quantities of] Breath:

The Breath flooded into Vasher, and everything became vibrant. His brown cloak now seemed deep and rich in color. The blood on the floor was intensely red, as if aflame. Even Vahr’s skin seemed a masterpiece of color, the surface marked by deep black hairs, blue bruises, and sharp red cuts. It had been years since Vasher had felt such . . . life.

 

He gasped, falling to his knees as it overwhelmed him, and he had to drop a hand to the stone floor to keep himself from toppling over. How did I live without this?

 

He knew that his senses hadn’t actually improved, yet he felt so much more alert. More aware of the beauty of sensation. When he touched the stone floor, he marveled at its roughness. And the sound of wind passing through the thin dungeon window up above. Had it always been that melodic?

This focuses mostly on the benefits of the Heightenings and is in the prologue of the book. It is possible that later descriptions of gaining Breath will be more pertinent.

 

Breath grants access to Awakening. There are no subsystems involved; so long as one has enough Breath to "afford" the Command for an object, one can Awaken.

 

Holding larger quantities of Breath unlocks abilities. These seem less like the "subsystems" of the other magics, and more like a simple side effect due to Breath including some of the "innate investiture" that people are born with. This is evident in the Warbreaker prologue, when Vasher notes that while holding 50 Breaths, his natural "lifesense" ability is "50 times stronger":

source

Being void of Breath did change him. Colors didn’t seem as bright. He couldn’t feel the bustling people moving about in the city above, a connection he normally took for granted. It was the awareness all men had for others—that thing which whispered a warning, in the drowsiness of sleep, when someone entered the room. In Vasher, that sense had been magnified fifty times. [blaze notes: Vasher had been holding 50 Breaths]

 

Anyone can hold Breath; there are no restrictions.

 

Breath does not diffuse through objects. Even in very porous objects like human flesh that other gaseous investiture diffuses through, Breath does not diffuse.

 

Breath is a natural occurence. Every individual born on Nalthis comes holding a single Breath. We know that there is some Shardic influence when it comes to Divine Breath, but we also know that were Endowment to die, the Returned and their Divine Breaths would continue to come.

source

Leinton

Would Returned still Return if Endowment died?

Brandon Sanderson

Magic in the cosmere needs a guiding force. If it doesn't have one, the magic itself will gain sentience. Or someone would pick it up. So yes, Returned would still come, but there would be something different based on who was guiding the power.

 

Breath is scarce and difficult to access. Though each individual is born with a single Breath, there is a finite amount of Breath that is useable. Even though the Mists, Stormlight, and the Dor are all also finite (given the power of a Shard is finite), the finite number is so large that they are, for all intents and purposes of the regular practitioner, infinite. That is not the case for Breath. In addition, whereas the Mists and Stormligth are relatively easily accessible, Breath is difficult to come by, and an individual holding more than 1000 Breaths (4th Heightening) is rarely seen.

 

The Dor: The Dor is unique compared to the other three listed because it is never outright stated to be gaseous. There are a few bits in the novel that convince me of its gaseous nature, though:

 

Light exploded from the ground.

 

It burst from the dirt like a silver river, spraying into the air along the line Raoden had drawn. The light enveloped him--but it was more than just light. It was essential purity. Power refined. The Dor. It washed over him, covering him like a warm liquid.

 

...

 

The light continued along Raoden's line, which connected to Kae's short border wall. It followed the wall, spurting from the ground, continuing in a circle until it completely surrounded Kae. It didn't stop. The power shot up the short road between Kae and Elantris, spreading to coat the great city's wall as well. From Elantris it moved to the other three outer cities, their rubble all but forgotten in the ten yers since the Reod. Soon all five cities were outlined with light--five resplendent pillars of energy.

 

This makes the Dor seem like a liquid, with it having "washed" over Raoden, "spurting from the ground," and "spreading to coat the great city's wall." But the fact that Roaden calls it light tells me it's a gas. Stormlight is described as light as well. There is also the passage immediately following the above that solidifies, to me, the Dor being gaseous.

 

Raoden stood in the torrent of light, his clothing fluttering in its unique power.

 

Then, like a lantern suddenly set aflame, Elantris erupted with light. The entire city shook, its walls seeming to stretch, distorted by some awesome power. The people inside were trapped in a vortex of energy, sudden winds ripping through the town.

 

Finally, the Dor is of a silvery color, and the lake in Elantris, which we know to be a Shardpool, is sapphire. If they were both liquid, why would they be different colors?

 

So, with my argument that the Dor is gaseous, let us look at the observations similar to the other three gaseous investitures.

 

What it feels like to "hold"/channel the Dor:

Raoden stood in the torrent of light, his clothing fluttering in its unique power. He felt his strength return, his pains evaporate like unimportant memories, and his wounds heal. He didn't need to look to know soft white hair had grown from his scalp, that his skin had discarded its sickly taint in favor of a delicate silver sheen.

The novel never really describes any feeling beyond the feeling of restoration to their normal selves. That being said, Raoden had been a Reod Elantrian long enough that his reference might be skewed. In addition, when the Dor "flooded" out with Raoden's first successful Aon in the library, much of the "pressure" released, which could cause a difference as well, however unlikely.

 

The Dor grants one access to all of AonDor. There are no subsystems. This is similar to Breath, but different to Stormlight and potentially the Mists. If one broadens the scope, however, to include all Selish magic, the Dor only grants access to the subsystem of AonDor. Doing such a broadening of the scope, however, seems suspect to me, as each of the systems feels like an individual magic system, rather than all being a piece of a whole (like the Surges and metals).

 

Only an individual taken by the Shaod can "hold" the Dor. This is a further refined process in that only Arelish people are capable of being taken by the Shaod. To add to the mystery, the Shaod is highly unknown and mysterious to us right now.

 

The Dor, like Stormlight, evaporates away shortly after entering the Physical Realm.

 

The Dor does diffuse through objects. The city of Elantris is said to "shine" in the book's prologue. An Elantrian's skin is said to do the same. This shine is sometimes described as a sheen, and looks metallic. Sometimes referred to as a glow as well.

 

The Dor seems to not be a natural occurence. It is a force waiting, off to the side (probably in the Cognitive or Spiritual Realms), to be released into the Physical Realm. It cannot occur in the Physical Realm, however, without some form of event, such as an Aon being drawn to completion, the ChayShan motions, the Dakhor rituals, etc. Though its existence might be natural, its occurence in the world isn't. that is, of course, unless one considers the Dor leaking through Elantris and Elantrians as a natural occurence. If one does feel that qualifies, then it can be said that the Dor does naturally occur.

 

The Dor is abundant and easy to access. The Dor never runs out, even given constant diffusion through the entirety of the city and all Elantrians. Ease of access is due to any Elantrian being able to draw an Aon whenever they want to bring forth the Dor's power.

 

I create this list above knowing full well that I may have made mistakes. I also ask that any observation you wish to be added to this list be accompanied by sources. I cited all of my observations that didn't come directly from the books, I'm pretty sure. I'm hoping this discussion can be mostly focused around textual evidence and WoB's, rather than baseless conjecture. Obviously baseless conjecture is allowed and often appreciated, though.

 

Discussion

 

I do hope this thread will involve discussion of all the forms of gaseous investiture, and not just one two, but Moogle originally wanted such a topic to discuss the Dor, so I will start this discussion there.

 

My observations above all say that Elantrians are "holding" the Dor, but is it holding in the same sense that one can hold the Mists, or how one can hold Stormlight? I do think there is a difference. Such a difference would explain why Raoden feels like his old self upon completing the Shaod, rather than being filled with a torrential energy, such as Szeth and Vin observe.

 

I do not, however, believe there is a way to "hold" more of the Dor than an Elantrian already does. Ignoring the fact that the Dor does not seem to occur naturally in the Physical Realm apart from leaking through Elantris and its denizens, if an Elantrian could intake more of the Dor, why has no one done it? As I noted, the Dor leaks from the city itself. Has no Elantrian taken a deep breath within their city? Or, if intent matters, are we to presume that there has never been an Elantrian to sigh in frustrastion, wishing they were more powerful? In a city such as Elantris, where they are so far advanced to possess a detailed library system, such a thing should have been documented. Of course, it is possible that Raoden's studying in the library never came across such a thing, and as a result we, as readers, have simply never been told about it. It could also be that the system is more selective, like the Mists, rather than not being selective, like Stormlight. We do not know much about such a thing, though that is my current position.

 

 

As a final note, the description of holding "large" amounts of Breath comes from the prologue, and as such focuses on the abilities granted by the Heightenings. I can't currently search the entirety of the book to find other instances which might be more pertinent to the comparison at hand, but if someone could point me at least to a chapter to save myself time later it would be greatly appreciated.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Blaze1616

[Kurkistan he/him]

Have a WoB.
 
Source:

Q. I know that there’s three sorts of forms that magic presents itself in, the liquid and the solid and air. What would Breath be?
A. Breath is definitely like Mist, it is in the form of the air.
Q. And is Stormlight the same?
A. Stormlight is the same. Good questions!

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Have a WoB.

 

Source:

 

Right. If that is in response to my comment about Breath being weird, I wasn't trying to imply it isn't gaseous investiture. Just that it is odd and has few similarities to the others.

 

Edit: added it to the What We Know section. Thanks!

Edited March 2, 2015 by Blaze1616

[Kurkistan he/him]

Right. If that is in response to my comment about Breath being weird, I wasn't trying to imply it isn't gaseous investiture. Just that it is odd and has few similarities to the others.

 

I actually didn't have time to read the whole OP (at work at the moment...  ), I just noticed that you weren't referencing that WoB and thought you might want to have all the facts at your disposal. So that wasn't in response to anything in particular. I'm usually a bit less passive-aggressive when I'm posting WoBs in response to specific things.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

Breath is in fact used, like Stormlight (note paraphrased):

Q:  Why is Breath not consumed in Awakening, unlike most all other uses of Investiture?
 
The answer to this question was a bit beyond the depth of my Cosmere knowledge, but i will attempt to paraphrase as best I can.
 
A: Not all investitures are "used up." Must like energy, it isn't typically created or destroyed, just changes form. With Breath, in what it's used for, it is just more easily and readily recovered than in other forms.
(source)

 
The difference is that after converting to a different form, it is recovered. What exactly this means will have to wait for an actual transcribed word-perfect WoB, but I think it is only a little speculative to say that the color aura that comes from a person is leaked Breath.
 
As to the mists: it is not clear that it gives access to all the metals. We'd need to see what a Misting can do with it. My suspicion is that a Misting who gained the ability to take in the mist would only be able to power their one metal, because that's what happens with Surgebinding.
 
I'm not sure if the Elantrians are holding gaseous Dor or not. Given Raoden's healing, I expect the answer is yes. If they are, I expect it would take some serious Cognitive work to be able to mentally use it to create Aon-like effects, if they even can. Allomancy is unique in how 'instinctual' it is, as opposed to Sel's stuff:

In truth, this isn’t much different from the form-based Investitures one finds on Sel, where specific shape is the key—here, however, the interactions are more limited. Still, one cannot deny the raw power of Allomancy. It is instinctive and intuitive for the practitioner, as opposed to requiring a great deal of study and exactness, as one finds in the form-based Investitures of Sel.

A general property we do know comes from this WoB:

Kaimipono (16 October 2008)
So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.
(source)

 

Essentially, if you take enough power in, your body explodes and (if you survive) the power you have can be used to do anything. Essentially, humans are limited to a few conduits (the magic systems) and when these are burned through you are no longer limited by those systems, you can do anything. How this fits in with Szeth claiming he'd burst if he took in more Stormlight, I don't know. Would he actually die if he did that, or would he ascend? Is it actually dangerous to take in that much Stormlight? I suspect yes, but it's an unknown.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Moogle

[Kurkistan he/him]

@Moogle

Recall that we got a Breath vs. Stormlight WoB from Chicago, when that gets transcribed.

[Voidus]

The Mists power Allomancy specifically:

source

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

Emphasis mine

 

 

It does say it can be used to fuel any of the powers in here, that may arguably be applied to the liquid form but either way I don't know that we can definitively say it only powers Allomancy.

 

 

 

Stormlight only grants an individual access to two Surges. This is unlike the Mists, which grant access to all of Allomancy.

 

A nahel bond seems necessary to intake Stormlight (with some exceptions)

 

Stormlight also doesn't "stick around" like the Mists do, but rather "evaporates" away, somewhat like the Mists do in sunlight (at least originally).

 

 It powers all of the powers, but it doesn't give people powers they don't have, Vin was a Mistborn so we don't know what might have happened had a Misting tried to use the mists they might have only been able to use their metal.

I believe that's a matter of density, the Stormlight's just trying to fill up the container it's in but other than during a Highstorm there's only a small amount being dispersed at any one time, so it doesn't evaporate so much as disperse, or at least that's how I viewed it.

 

 

Breath is scarce and difficult to access. Though each individual is born with a single Breath, there is a finite amount of Breath that is useable. Even though the Mists, Stormlight, and the Dor are all also finite (given the power of a Shard is finite), the finite number is so large that they are, for all intents and purposes of the regular practitioner, infinite. That is not the case for Breath. In addition, whereas the Mists and Stormligth are relatively easily accessible, Breath is difficult to come by, and an individual holding more than 1000 Breaths (4th Heightening) is rarely seen.

Breath isn't that scarce, Vin burned through all of the Mists in a remarkably short amount of time and Surgebinders on Roshar need quite a few gems to keep them going, if everyone on Roshar was a Surgebinder it would run out pretty quickly, they already started addressing it at the end of WoR. I think it's pretty comparable, it just seems scarce because everyone can use it, the ratio of supply to demand is smaller but I think that's more to do with the demand than the supply.

Great work on the compilation though, good topic

Edited March 3, 2015 by Voidus

[Blaze1616 he/him]

As to the mists: it is not clear that it gives access to all the metals. We'd need to see what a Misting can do with it. My suspicion is that a Misting who gained the ability to take in the mist would only be able to power their one metal, because that's what happens with Surgebinding.

 

 It powers all of the powers, but it doesn't give people powers they don't have, Vin was a Mistborn so we don't know what might have happened had a Misting tried to use the mists they might have only been able to use their metal.

 

That's a good point that I hadn't considered. I'll edit the OP.

 

It does say it can be used to fuel any of the powers in here, that may arguably be applied to the liquid form but either way I don't know that we can definitively say it only powers Allomancy.

 

I do think it is safe to say it would fuel Allomantic powers only. Aside from Brandon naming Allomancy when he talked of the gaseous form, take into account that consuming the solid form, lerasium, only makes one an Allomancer, and not a Feruchemist. If pure investiture from Preservation could be fuel for other systems, why would the solid form be so biased?

 

 

I'm not sure if the Elantrians are holding gaseous Dor or not. Given Raoden's healing, I expect the answer is yes. If they are, I expect it would take some serious Cognitive work to be able to mentally use it to create Aon-like effects, if they even can. Allomancy is unique in how 'instinctual' it is, as opposed to Sel's stuff:

In truth, this isn’t much different from the form-based Investitures one finds on Sel, where specific shape is the key—here, however, the interactions are more limited. Still, one cannot deny the raw power of Allomancy. It is instinctive and intuitive for the practitioner, as opposed to requiring a great deal of study and exactness, as one finds in the form-based Investitures of Sel.

 

My issue with the thought process that Elantrians must use Aons no matter what is that the other three major systems involve some form of instinctual-ness. As the Ars Arcanum excerpt you posted notes, Allomancy is in itself instinctual. With Breath, holding enough to reach the upper Heightenings makes Awakening instinctual. With Stormlight, it only took Kaladin some slight practice with thinking outside the box for his powers to become instinctual. So for AonDor to not have some means of becoming instinctual would make it the oddball.

[Edgedancer he/him]

Do we know, if the Dor even has a physical form? It could be that it jumps directly from the spiritual to whatever it was programmed to do and the light and in some cases wind is a side effect of the power being released.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Voidus]

I do think it is safe to say it would fuel Allomantic powers only. Aside from Brandon naming Allomancy when he talked of the gaseous form, take into account that consuming the solid form, lerasium, only makes one an Allomancer, and not a Feruchemist. If pure investiture from Preservation could be fuel for other systems, why would the solid form be so biased?

Firstly because the solid form is the most rigid, second we know that there is more to Lerasium than just creating Mistborn, it may just require a trick, thirdly if we're talking Preservations Investiture in general we have several WoBs that it can power any of the three metallic arts, one of which is in this quote.

 

 

 

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. 

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Do we know, if the Dor even has a physical form? It could be that it jumps directly from the spiritual to whatever it was programmed to do and the light and in some cases wind is a side effect of the power being released.

 

Although I suppose we don't have definitive proof that the pool is the same essence as the Dor, I doubt it any different than that which powers the other magic systems, as it must fit within Brandon's unifying theory. Seeing as the other systems all have investiture in the form of the states of matter, I've presumed such a "rule" is involved in his unifying theory, and as such the Dor must fit into it as well.

 

 

Firstly because the solid form is the most rigid, second we know that there is more to Lerasium than just creating Mistborn, it may just require a trick, thirdly if we're talking Preservations Investiture in general we have several WoBs that it can power any of the three metallic arts, one of which is in this quote.

 

 

Mm, good points. I still have my doubts, but the possibility definitely exists.

[Edgedancer he/him]

Although I suppose we don't have definitive proof that the pool is the same essence as the Dor, I doubt it any different than that which powers the other magic systems, as it must fit within Brandon's unifying theory. Seeing as the other systems all have investiture in the form of the states of matter, I've presumed such a "rule" is involved in his unifying theory, and as such the Dor must fit into it as well.

I'm not saying the Dor can't be physical. What I mean is if Elatrians, Forgers ect need to acces a physical form of Investure, be it gas, liquid or whatever, to use their respective magic. Afterall, as long as the mists or god metals aren't involved Allomancers don't use physical Investure either. Both start a beacon, burning metals and drawing symbols respectively, then magic happens. Sure Preservation (and Shards in general) can manifest in the physical but that doesn't seem to be a requirement for all magic systems, afterall Allomancy works off-world where no mists are around.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

I'm not saying the Dor can't be physical. What I mean is if Elatrians, Forgers ect need to acces a physical form of Investure, be it gas, liquid or whatever, to use their respective magic. Afterall, as long as the mists or god metals aren't involved Allomancers don't use physical Investure either. Both start a beacon, burning metals and drawing symbols respectively, then magic happens. Sure Preservation (and Shards in general) can manifest in the physical but that doesn't seem to be a requirement for all magic systems, afterall Allomancy works off-world where no mists are around.

 

So you're suggesting there is a force, located somewhere, that is independant of the solid, liquid, and gaseous inestitures we see?

[Edgedancer he/him]

So you're suggesting there is a force, located somewhere, that is independant of the solid, liquid, and gaseous inestitures we see?

Yes or do you suggest that there is an additional form of Investure solid, liquid or gaseous that we don't know of fueling ordinary Allomancy, which is not dependant on the mist?

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Yes or do you suggest that there is an additional form of Investure solid, liquid or gaseous that we don't know of fueling ordinary Allomancy, which is not dependant on the mist?

 

I've always had a pet theory that plasma investiture exists, which is not really an answer. If you are correct and the Dor is separate, I wonder if the Dor is the power of creation that powers all the magic systems. Sel is supposedly the most Realmatically aware planet, according to Brandon...

[Moogle]

So you're suggesting there is a force, located somewhere, that is independant of the solid, liquid, and gaseous inestitures we see?

 

That's just how Investiture seems in the Physical. It would be natural for Investiture to have different forms in the other Realms. I don't think the Investiture taken in by Allomancers is Physical, as it wouldn't be solid (people don't burn lerasium all the time), it wouldn't be liquid (else they'd get superpowers), and if it is gaseous we don't see it leaking from them. Nobody's yet asked Brandon about that, though.

[Meg]

So you're suggesting there is a force, located somewhere, that is independent of the solid, liquid, and gaseous investitures we see?

 

That's how I understand the following two excerpts from WoBs that I stole from Moogles OP in his related thread (emphasizes mine):

 

The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal.

source

 

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway.

 

source

 

And there is a WoB or may be it comes from an annotation or such, that says that the metals are the means by which the Scadrials understand to use the Scadrial "magic system". I can't find it now, I'm too tired, sorry.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

So then here's my question. If the Dor is not a gaseous investiture, but it in reality the power of creation itself, why are Elantrians the only beings in the Cosmere to have direct connection to it? I understand Aon's or the same concept as metals, the movements in ChayShan, etc. but why would the power of creation permeate through Elantrians, and all of Elantris? One could argue it filters through the city because of the formation of Aon Rao, but that doesn't explain why it would filter through the Elantrians themselves.

 

@Meg: Though I think everyone agrees that Investiture is a single thing, there are different forms of it, like matter. Everything is matter, yes? But matter comes in the form of elements, which can then form different molecules and compounds, etc. That's the best analogy I can think of at the moment...

Edited March 6, 2015 by Blaze1616

[natc]

So then here's my question. If the Dor is not a gaseous investiture, but it in reality the power of creation itself, why are Elantrians the only beings in the Cosmere to have direct connection to it? I understand Aon's or the same concept as metals, the movements in ChayShan, etc. but why would the power of creation permeate through Elantrians, and all of Elantris? One could argue it filters through the city because of the formation of Aon Rao, but that doesn't explain why it would filter through the Elantrians themselves.

@Meg: Though I think everyone agrees that Investiture is a single thing, there are different forms of it, like matter. Everything is matter, yes? But matter comes in the form of elements, which can then form different molecules and compounds, etc. That's the best analogy I can think of at the moment...

Matter is really a lot simpler than that once you go past the subatomic levels and start breaking down particles as far as they go. It apparently looks the same at that point. I'm not a physicist. Forces are the same. Energy itself falls under that matter business for some reason, because matter-energy transformation is strangely possible. Everything might as well be one thing, to an extent.

Yet it behaves completely differently at the macroscopic level. Like investiture. It probably is less an actual difference inn composition and more some kind of arrangement on the cognitive or spiritual level that causes what ought to be the same properties to manifest in different ways. Which apparently can be jury-rigged to work regardless. You can smash an atom to pieces and piece something completely different together, but that's both storming difficult not quite as complex at the same time . . .

So an analogy with matter makes more sense than you'd think.

[laxrulz777 he/him]

As to the mists: it is not clear that it gives access to all the metals. We'd need to see what a Misting can do with it. My suspicion is that a Misting who gained the ability to take in the mist would only be able to power their one metal, because that's what happens with Surgebinding.
 

 

 

I think we can safely infer the answer to this. When Vin was forced to swallow the (then unknown) extra metal in book 1, she recognized a new pool of power. However, when she swelled with the mists, she didn't mention anything (that I recall) about sensing 5 other metal types. She doesn't use a time bubble on the Lord Ruler. Now we could chalk this all up to the heat of the battle but, I think, it's a lot more likely that the Mist was only filling up those reserves that she knew how to use. So a Soother, having no idea how to use Pewter, wouldn't be able to just make himself stronger.

 

I think there's also a very real possibility that only Mistborn can even use the mist in this way (and, even then, only a select few). It may be that you have to have the "wide open" Allomantic Spirit Web to even draw in the Mist directly.

[Curiosity he/him]

So then here's my question. If the Dor is not a gaseous investiture, but it in reality the power of creation itself, why are Elantrians the only beings in the Cosmere to have direct connection to it? I understand Aon's or the same concept as metals, the movements in ChayShan, etc. but why would the power of creation permeate through Elantrians, and all of Elantris? One could argue it filters through the city because of the formation of Aon Rao, but that doesn't explain why it would filter through the Elantrians themselves.

 

@Meg: Though I think everyone agrees that Investiture is a single thing, there are different forms of it, like matter. Everything is matter, yes? But matter comes in the form of elements, which can then form different molecules and compounds, etc. That's the best analogy I can think of at the moment...

 

In partial answer to the first part of this post: Get ready for a madcap rush through an amalgamation of my own theories...

 

I would say that the Dor is a gaseous Investiture, and that Investiture that is held by a mind does not have a physical manifestation. So Breaths, souls, the majority of a Shard's power, spren, etc. do not have a physical form while mindless lerasium, Mist (while directed, is still "unheld"), Stormlight, and shardpools have a physical manifestation (solid, liquid, or "gas"). The Dor is mindless ("...and [Odium] left the powers there, to a large extent, mindless."*), and therefore has a physical manifestation, which I would argue is the gas or light phase. 

 

Investiture somehow is always seeking to have a holder, a mind to control it, a soul to identify and grant it sentience. Sometimes it finds a holder (Vin, Kelsier, etc.) and sometimes it develops sentience on its own (spren, Seons). (It's possible that the Dor hadn't stewed long enough to develop autonomous consciousness since Elantris is much earlier than the SA.) From what I understand (and what most people on this website theorize), the Dor is the mixture of free Investiture from the Splintering of Devotion and Dominion. Unlike on Roshar, there were few Splinters (Seons and Skaze) that formed out of this Splintering, meaning that there weren't as many Seons or Skaze as Radiant bonding spren on Roshar. The remaining Investiture is a gigantic, concentrated, violent ocean in the Cognitive Realm.

 

This is really where my theorizing starts. I think that the Dor (in the Cognitive Realm) is like Mist and Stormlight, but having no Stormfather or Kelsier to control it, destroys things. However, it "wants" to be used/controlled. Now, the Aons, Soulstamps, Dakhor monks, ChayShan, etc. all use the Dor, but since there's no mind to control the Investiture, careful instructions must be given as the Investiture exits the Cognitive Realm (Aons, Soulstamps, creepy chanting, careful choreography, etc.). Since the Elantrian (we'll just use them as the point example) never holds the Dor directly like Stormlight or Mist, they cannot innately control it as in the examples of Surgebinding or Allomancy. There is no mind to this power, so the form (as in the AoL Ars Arcanum's "form-based") acts as the mind and doorway.

 

So now we have a magic system in which the Dor/Mist is accessed through bureaucracy, so to speak, instead of direct wielders. You just fill out a complicated geographically based form, and you get the desired effect. Anyone from MaiPon can Forge, anyone from Jindo can perform ChayShan, anyone from Fjordell can become a Dakhor monk. However, only Elantrians can access the Dor in Aonic lands. This is interesting, but I personally believe that it is simply that the Dor, by granting a boost to the soul (similar to burning a bead of Lerasium,) forges connections to certain people who will use it, an effect exclusive to Arelon, Teod, and portions of Duladen. This probably has to do something with the Intent of the mindless Investiture and the actions of an Elantrian-to-be, but I'm not sure. The bond forged is similar to the bond between Allomancers and Preservation's power. They wield the power in limited fashion, but unlike in Allomancy, the power is not limited to 16 abilities, but the full extent of Aons' meanings. Just like a Mistborn is more Invested than a Misting, so an Elantrian is Invested more than a Mistborn. This extra strong bond (making use of an extra strong soul granted by the Dor) is what gives the Elantrians their "passive", nonAonic abilities such as functional immortality and a healing factor. You must have Investiture to "request" investiture, to open up portals for it to flow through. 

 

However, the Selish power source (the Dor) is not invested in a person, obeying a Shardholder's will (like Leras') but mindlessly careening about the Cognitive Realm with no directive. Only the qualification to draw light in the air, the VIP pass is given to someone. You cannot hold the Dor like the Mist without it wrecking you, because it is not controlled the will of Aona or Skai, unlike the Mists of Leras or the Light from the Stormfather. 

 

I would appreciate clarifying questions, comments, and general hole poking in the theory (if you can call it that). 

 

TL;DR-  Investiture needs a soul/mind/sentience. Without it, it has a physical manifestation. Extrapolate from there. Read the rest. There once was a furry footed British guy who had to throw his uncle's ring into a hole in the ground. Don't take reader's digest version of stuff. 

[natc]

As to the mists: it is not clear that it gives access to all the metals. We'd need to see what a Misting can do with it. My suspicion is that a Misting who gained the ability to take in the mist would only be able to power their one metal, because that's what happens with Surgebinding.

I think we can safely infer the answer to this. When Vin was forced to swallow the (then unknown) extra metal in book 1, she recognized a new pool of power. However, when she swelled with the mists, she didn't mention anything (that I recall) about sensing 5 other metal types. She doesn't use a time bubble on the Lord Ruler. Now we could chalk this all up to the heat of the battle but, I think, it's a lot more likely that the Mist was only filling up those reserves that she knew how to use. So a Soother, having no idea how to use Pewter, wouldn't be able to just make himself stronger.

I think there's also a very real possibility that only Mistborn can even use the mist in this way (and, even then, only a select few). It may be that you have to have the "wide open" Allomantic Spirit Web to even draw in the Mist directly.

Well the Mists were also producing atium mistings instead of the expected cadmium/bendalloy mistings. (Gotta wonder if it made any malatium, duralumin, aluminum, chromium, and nicrosil mistings. . . like you could even test for those anyway). There's reason to assume Preservation sabotaged his own system all those years ago just for that final Elend gambit and left a bunch of holes in the mist-powered allomancy system in the process. Because burning should be instinctive, supposedly, Vin doesn't need to know about an allomantically viable metal to be able to detect the reserve and burn it, she'll at most just not know what would happen if she does. She'll probably do it anyway, knowing her.

Though on the misting thing, with what lerasium does to your soul just as a side effect of burning it (we still don't actually know what it does . . .)it's possible that if you somehow burn mist regardless of your powers or lack thereof you'd end up a mistborn after a while until the ascension threshold is reached.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

I think we can safely infer the answer to this. When Vin was forced to swallow the (then unknown) extra metal in book 1, she recognized a new pool of power. However, when she swelled with the mists, she didn't mention anything (that I recall) about sensing 5 other metal types. She doesn't use a time bubble on the Lord Ruler. Now we could chalk this all up to the heat of the battle but, I think, it's a lot more likely that the Mist was only filling up those reserves that she knew how to use. So a Soother, having no idea how to use Pewter, wouldn't be able to just make himself stronger.

 

My counter to this is that Vin couldn't use the other metals because she lacked the knowledge they existed, not because she didn't think she could use them.

 

To explain much better, A Pewter Misting knows the other metals exist. They know about Tin, Zinc, Brass, Bronze, Steel, etc. Vin had zero knowledge on the existence of Allomantic abilities with Nicrosil, Cadmium, Bendalloy, etc. In the same way that Szeth had to wait 10 seconds to draw his Honorblade simply because he himself believed he had to, Vin didn't, and likely couldn't, create those effects because she didn't believe she could. A Misting, on the other hand, knows other metals and their allomantic effects exist, so I don't agree that that is a safe inference, because the situations are wildly different.

 

Anyone from MaiPon can Forge, anyone from Jindo can perform ChayShan, anyone from Fjordell can become a Dakhor monk.

 

I may have missed something, but is this true? Anyone from MaiPon can Forge, and those known as Forgers are simply people who devoted time to study the skillset?

[Curiosity he/him]

I may have missed something, but is this true? Anyone from MaiPon can Forge, and those known as Forgers are simply people who devoted time to study the skillset?

 

There wasn't anything in the book to the contrary. I just think that Forgers were seen as untrustworthy thieves so that not many people studied it. However, I do acknowledge that we don't have official confirmation on any of those three claims that I made. I'll add that to the the list of questions I'm amassing...

[Edgedancer he/him]

I may have missed something, but is this true? Anyone from MaiPon can Forge, and those known as Forgers are simply people who devoted time to study the skillset?

As Curiosity said, there's nothing stating otherwise and given that everyone can apply a stamp after it is made and the Investure never enters the Forger's body (as far as we know) it seems like the logical conclusion.