Metals And Mists: Questions On Allomantic Fundamentals

[Araris Valerian]

Perhaps the effect of the mists is limited by your spiritweb. We have seen Vin draw in the mists, and since she could burn any metal, the power she received came in the form of all the metals. I think we need to ask what would happen if a misting tried to use the mists.

[Shaggai]

I'm not sure if you're quite grasping the problem of the idea of metals as Aons, or if I'm misinterpreting you. The idea is that the metal's molecular structure is what causes the effect, in the same way that an Aon's shape determines the power. If there's no shape, you don't get a power. The shape causes the power. If you draw an Aon incorrectly, nothing happens. You can't burn wrong alloys because there's not the right molecular structure/shape. You seem to just be ignoring this rule and saying "it's a gas, therefore it doesn't need a shape, therefore it can do anything", and it's running completely counter to the idea that shape causes the power. It just seems to conflict with the WoBs I posted above, and doesn't leave me feeling like I understand anything.

 

Also a consequence of your theory: If the mists can activate every ability because they're a gas and don't need a shape, shouldn't Stormlight should be able to activate all ten Surges? This does not seem to be the case.

I think the simplest explanation for the difference between Stormlight and the mists is that Stormlight runs off of a different system. Instead of metals as filters, spren bonds act as filters. There's no shape, but it's not a physical-shape-based system.

 

Actually, the odd thing here is Compounding. Feruchemical storage shouldn't affect the actual molecular structure of the metal. I think that there's a few relevant components to the metal. One involves the molecular structure, and connects more to the Ideal of that metal. This presumably is what the spiritweb checks for when deciding whether or not to allow access to Preservation's energy. The similarity to Aons is in the connection -- Aons allow access to the Dor, metals allow access to Preservation. It may also be similar to the Aonic connection to the actual shape of the land.

The actual shaping, however, seems more likely to be mediated by a non-physical Spiritual component which is related to Preservation's setup of the magic system. There's a default, but it can be altered by Feruchemical storage. Presumably, this is analogous to the Spiritual/Cognitive component of Aons, which actually mediates their effects. We know that the meaning of some Aons has changed over time -- did this change their effects?

[Moogle]

I think the simplest explanation for the difference between Stormlight and the mists is that Stormlight runs off of a different system. Instead of metals as filters, spren bonds act as filters. There's no shape, but it's not a physical-shape-based system.

 

I agree. Because of this, we should expect that Mistings who take in the mists should only be able to power one metal. However, this still clashes with Shattered Logic's theory.

 

I have no thoughts one way or another on your Compounding ideas. Nothing is really coming up to me and saying "yeah this is wrong!" or "this is right!".

[skaa]

All analogies are imperfect, but I admit that my "metal=code, mist=bytecode, spiritweb=interpreter+machine" analogy might be a little bit too imperfect and simplistic. I've been thinking about this little conundrum of yours, Moogle, and I've decided that what you need is... no, not a clear and concise theory of Preservation's Investiture on Scadrial. That'd be absurd. What you need, my friend, is an even more complex analogy! And to make sure I do it right this time, I'm gonna use a car analogy. Because everyone knows that car analogies are the best ways to enlighten someone about complex ideas.

You're welcome.

---

Car analogy spoilered for length:

Imagine Preservation is an inventor (let's call him Mr. L) of a very strange type of car called an AllomanCar. What makes this car strange is its fuel, or rather, its set of fuels. For an AllomanCar to move forward, it has to have the fuel called Push. To make it go in reverse requires Pull. If you want to honk your AllomanCar's horn, you'll need Riot. (Boring side note: We're not talking about metals yet; these fuels are just analogies for each type of Allomantic Investiture.) You get the gist.

In order to make this strange system work, an AllomanCar contains a computer system called SpiritWeb that maps each fuel type to a specific function. It can analyze the contents of its fuel tank and filter the stuff it recognizes into separate storage containers labelled by function. This way you can safely pour in a mixture of various fuels into the fuel tank and the car can process the mixture correctly.

Mr. L's AllomanCar factory has a strange QA issue: Some AllomanCars come out with a defective SpiritWeb component that can only recognize one type of fuel. Some can't recognize any type of fuel at all. The most defective ones are derisively referred to as AllomanScars (Scars for short). Despite many complaints from owners of AllomanCars who could only drive in reverse, or those unlucky Scar owners, very little has been done about the matter, though there is a car hacker group lead by a certain Mr. A (Ruin) whose members use illicit (and quite frankly barbaric) methods to add missing modules to their SpiritWeb installation, effectively voiding their warranties. But that is outside the scope of this write-up.

Mr. L manufactures a special mixture of 16 AllomanCar fuel types as a product called Mist. Rumor has it that Mist has other properties aside from fuelling AllomanCars. Unfortunately Mr. L only sells Mist to a very limited number of AllomanCar owners and at a price so high that it can literally render a person broken, so Mist's properties are not fully explored. Rather than selling fuel as is to the general AllomanCar-owning public at a reasonable price like a sane businessman would, Mr. L instead sells bags of... metal pellets.

In conjunction with advanced teleportation technology, these metal pellets constitute Mr. L's crazy new approach to fuel distribution. When an AllomanCar's SpiritWeb encounters a piece of metal, it analyzes the metal, generates a server request containing that metal's "signature", and sends the request to the server in Mr. L's headquarters, which also houses a huge quantity of AllomanCar fuels of all types. The metal signature then becomes a fuel "filter" because the server maps each signature to a specific AllomanCar fuel. If the server recognizes a signature, it returns the corresponding fuel type to the SpiritWeb, and if the SpiritWeb recognizes the fuel type (remember, some SpiritWeb installations can only recognize one fuel type), then it will store the metal in that fuel type's storage container. Finally, when the specific fuel is about to be used, another server request is sent, and Mr. L's server triggers a teleportation function that switches a specific amount of that fuel with a metal pellet.

Here is an example. Suppose the driver wants to move his AllomanCar forward. First, he pours steel pellets into his fuel tank. Mr. L's server maps regular steel to the Push fuel, so the AllomanCar's SpiritWeb (which recognizes Push) moves the steel pellets into the Push storage container. Then the driver sets his gear to "Push". This triggers the teleportation of Push fuel into the Push storage container, slowly replacing the steel pellets. The driver then steps on a pedal and the Push fuel pushes the AllomanCar forward. The teleportation process continues as long as the gear is set to "Push" and there are still steel pellets in the AllomanCar.

Like many mysterious inventors, lots of rumors surround Mr. L. Some claim that there is a secret metal called L-ium (Lerasium), pronounced "elium", supposedly a concentrated form of Mist that can magically re-calibrate defective SpiritWeb installations, turning even Scars into fully-functioning AllomanCars. Another rumor is that Mr. L was once friends with the hacker Mr. A and that they worked on the mysterious Project F (Feruchemy) that aimed to store physical attributes like weight and speed in metal. Some say that if SpiritWeb was retrofitted with a special module that could recognize Project F metal signatures, it can then access an unlimited source of Project F fuels via Mr. L's servers.

Of course, these rumors are nothing compared to the crazy fanatics who claim that Mr. L is a god-like being and that AllomanCar fuels are actually part of his body, or the even crazier claim that Mr. L and Mr. A are actually one and the same person named Mr. S. But clearly this analogy has gone a bit too far and I should stop now and get some sleep.

---

Edit: Alright, fine, here's the non-car-related TL;DR:

• The Spiritweb is a filter in the context of the Allomancer because it is the thing programmed to recognize and utilize one or more types of Allomantic Investiture given to the Allomancer.
• Metal is a filter in the context of Preservation because it marks the kind of Allomantic Investiture that Preservation will give.

In a client-server analogy, Preservation is the server accepting remote Investiture requests containing metal "signatures" (including specialized metalmind signatures) that map to a specific type of Investiture, while the Allomancer's Spiritweb is the client sending Investiture requests and parsing the Investiture coming from Preservation, mapping each Investiture type to an effect. Mist is Allomantic Investiture that can enter an Allomancer locally (as opposed to remotely via metal-mediated Investiture request), but permission to access Mist is very rare.

Did I miss anything?

Edit: Yes I did.

Modifying the Spiritweb via Hemalurgy or through some other means can create filters for other types of Investiture (e.g. one from a totally different Shard), which may or may not have a corresponding Allomantic metal depending on whether the Shardic source will respond to metal-based requests for Investiture.

God metals like lerasium and atium are Shardic Investiture in solid form. Instead of going through the Allomantic request-response exchange like normal metals, they can directly be processed Allomantically by the Spiritweb (though in the case of atium, not all Spiritwebs recognize it as an Allomantic source of Investiture).

Edited March 5, 2015 by skaa

[Shard of Adonalsium]

No one's answered my post on Shardpools ;-;

[Meg]

I wonder what pure Preservation-fueled Shardpool Allomancy would be like.

 

Edit: As in filling a jug with Shardpool (water?) and ingesting it.

If I understand the description in The Well of Ascension write, Vin did swallow the liquid from the pool.

 

She felt the liquid pressing against her, creeping into her body, crawling, forcing its way through the pores and openings in her skin. She opened her mouth to scream, and it rushed in that way too, choking her, gagging her.

 

The Well of Ascension, Chapter 58

 

At least I think that she didn't spit out what "choked and gagged" her. A normal reflex would be to swallow, wouldn't it?

[Shard of Adonalsium]

If I understand the description in The Well of Ascension write, Vin did swallow the liquid from the pool.

 

The Well of Ascension, Chapter 58

 

At least I think that she didn't spit out what "choked and gagged" her. A normal reflex would be to swallow, wouldn't it?

Okay, but that's Ruin's Shardpool, not Preservation's. I'm talking about Pure Shardpool water here. 

[Moogle]

@Skaa:

 

Thanks, I laughed several times reading through it.

 

I'm not trying to individually throw out models here, I was just planning on this thread being somewhere I could collect ideas and maybe catch on one that makes intuitive sense to me. That said, what we plan to do and what we actually end up doing are often different things.

 

Here's a few thoughts:

• Your model is consistent and can explain everything, so props there. I cannot argue against it on grounds that anything directly contradicts it besides my own vague unproven theories elsewhere. My arguments are incredibly flimsy and I make no effort to pretend otherwise. On the other hand, I don't think your model has too much evidence going for it (besides being mostly elegant and consistent, which I grant are strong points in its favor), so I hope it isn't too offensive of me to say I'm not quite feeling it.
• I find the underlying design principles disagreeable. This system would make sense if it were invented, and I am of the opinion that magic systems, which arise naturally through interactions with the planet and the Shard, are not in fact designed to this level. This sort of thing arising naturally is not what I would expect. I understand that you're probably not arguing that it was designed, I'm just saying it looks like something that would be designed.
• I disagree with the notion of the mist as being composed of the sixteen types of Allomantic Investiture. Similarly, I disagree with your idea of Stormlight as being composed of the Surges. I am not saying you are wrong, but I am saying in an intuitive sense that I disagree and it leaves me wanting. (I recognize this is a very flimsy argument, and I certainly don't expect you to respond to it.) I also find this model leads to issues with powering other magic systems with the same Investiture. For example, my intuitions at this point indicate that someone filled with Breath should be able to do some fancy hijinks and use Allomancy without burning any metals, and I don't feel your model covers this.
• As an addendum to the last point: I also strongly disbelieve that Investitures can be converted to one another. I am what you might call a proponent of the Law of Conservation of Intent, if you can call a theory a law. I strongly strongly feel that Breaths cannot be made into Stormlight, though Breaths can power Surgebindings. I've argued about this at length elsewhere.
• Ultimately it still feels like there's duplication: your own spirit can filter the mist into the types of Allomantic Investiture, but also the metals can filter it too and deliver you one type?
• Also: I'm a little bit less than sold on the idea of there being "Allomantic Investitures". Again, another intuitive thing. It might be true; each metal type grants you a different mental enhancement, as far as I know, which could indicate different 'flavors' of Investiture, but then I look around and I see other Investitures (like Breaths) that can be unconverted from their specific types and I question the idea.

As a followup question, to test my understanding, you'd agree that Elantrians who managed to find a gaseous intake of Dor would be able to do AonDor (at least in theory, since keeping an entire program in your head might be hard to do Cognitively) without drawing symbols because the Dor is made up of the Aons?

Edited March 5, 2015 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

I agree. Because of this, we should expect that Mistings who take in the mists should only be able to power one metal. However, this still clashes with Shattered Logic's theory.

 

I have no thoughts one way or another on your Compounding ideas. Nothing is really coming up to me and saying "yeah this is wrong!" or "this is right!".

My theory is actually that Mistings with the mists would be able use all the metals. Their connection isn't to a specific ability, it's to a metal, as evidenced by the fact that they can use metalminds. If they get the power without the metal filtering it, then they can use whatever ability they want.

 

Edit: To respond to Skaa's theory: I'm not sure I buy that. Let me try to fit my idea into your analogy.

 

Another group of clearly insane people believe that there's only one type of Fuel. However, Mr L. adds DRM to this fuel (maybe it's made of nanobots or something, I don't know) depending on the type of metal, which makes it seem like there are multiple fuel types. The specific DRM applied is calculated on the fly, using certain properties of the metals. The DRM conspiracy theorists believe that Project F metals actually alter those properties, thus altering the nature of the DRM.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Shaggai

[Moogle]

My theory is actually that Mistings with the mists would be able use all the metals. Their connection isn't to a power, it's to a metal, as evidenced by the fact that they can use metalminds. If they get the power without the metal filtering it, then they can use whatever power they want.

 

I see what you're saying, I think. I guess we differ on this point. What I wouldn't give for another online Brandon question interview thing...

[skaa]

My theory is actually that Mistings with the mists would be able use all the metals. Their connection isn't to a specific ability, it's to a metal, as evidenced by the fact that they can use metalminds. If they get the power without the metal filtering it, then they can use whatever ability they want.

 

I think a Misting who was lucky enough to be granted access to the mists will eventually be able to use all metals if he holds the mists long enough. His Spiritweb needs to be changed first to make him a full Mistborn, something that the mists can of course do. But assuming this transformation isn't instantaneous, there will be a time between mist infusion and Spiritweb transformation where the Misting will only recognize one Allomantic power within the mists. Note that this may very well be a very short time (it did not take long for Elend to start burning Pewter after ingesting Lerasium, and the mists are the gaseous equivalent of Lerasium), but I think there's an important conceptual difference between "Misting Spiritweb can recognize all 16 Allomantic powers in the mists" and "Misting Spiritweb can be transformed by the mists into a Mistborn Spiritweb so that it can recognize all 16 Allomantic powers in the mists."

 

As for the other stuff (and Moogle's excellent points), I'll get to those later when I'm less busy.

Edited March 5, 2015 by skaa

[Shaggai]

I think a Misting who was lucky enough to be granted access to the mists will eventually be able to use all metals if he holds the mists long enough. His Spiritweb needs to be changed first to make him a full Mistborn, something that the mists can of course do. But assuming this transformation isn't instantaneous, there will be a time between mist infusion and Spiritweb transformation where the Misting will only recognize one Allomantic power within the mists. Note that this may very well be a very short time (it did not take long for Elend to start burning Pewter after ingesting Lerasium, and the mists are the gaseous equivalent of Lerasium), but I think there's an important conceptual difference between "Misting Spiritweb can recognize all 16 Allomantic powers in the mists" and "Misting Spiritweb can be transformed by the mists into a Mistborn Spiritweb so that it can recognize all 16 Allomantic powers in the mists."

 

As for the other stuff (and Moogle's excellent points), I'll get to those later when I'm less busy.

I think it's not really a matter of "Misting spiritweb can recognize all 16 powers in the mists." Misting spiritwebs would apparently have no trouble with recognizing the Feruchemical powers in their metal of choice. I think that the metal acts as a catalyst for the transfer of Investiture, and a limiter for its properties. I think the Allomantic powers aren't inherent in the mists, but are created by the magic system using the metals.

[skaa]

As a followup question, to test my understanding, you'd agree that Elantrians who managed to find a gaseous intake of Dor would be able to do AonDor (at least in theory, since keeping an entire program in your head might be hard to do Cognitively) without drawing symbols because the Dor is made up of the Aons?

 

I don't think the Dor is made up of the Aons. Otherwise ChayShan, Soul Forgery, etc., which also use the Dor, would also require Aons (they in fact require a different set of Forms altogether). Rather I think the Dor contains various powers that can be Invested through specific Forms mapped to each type of power. (Similarly, I don't think Scadrian mists are made up of the 16 metals, but rather they contain the 16 Allomantic powers. Stormlight isn't made up of gemstones but rather contains the Surges. Breath isn't made up of Commands but rather contains the different BioChromatic powers.)

 

But to answer your question, if an Elantrian manages to consume enough gaseous Dor to transform his body significantly (but not enough to vaporize his Physical aspect), I do think he will eventually learn how to trigger AonDor just by imagining the Aons in his head. Such a feat would be easier for him because the Dor would have expanded his mind (as a big bunch of Investiture often does). This is similar to how enough BioChromatic Breath can transform a Nalthian so that he could Awaken using Mental Commands.

 

 

• I disagree with the notion of the mist as being composed of the sixteen types of Allomantic Investiture. Similarly, I disagree with your idea of Stormlight as being composed of the Surges. I am not saying you are wrong, but I am saying in an intuitive sense that I disagree and it leaves me wanting.

Another group of clearly insane people believe that there's only one type of Fuel. However, Mr L. adds DRM to this fuel (maybe it's made of nanobots or something, I don't know) depending on the type of metal, which makes it seem like there are multiple fuel types. The specific DRM applied is calculated on the fly, using certain properties of the metals. The DRM conspiracy theorists believe that Project F metals actually alter those properties, thus altering the nature of the DRM.

 

Both of you seem to think that there is only one type of Allomantic Investiture. I think it's already a given that there's more than one: A Mistborn can certainly recognize more than one, as evidenced by the multiple power stores he can "see" and choose from, whether he ingested metals or is using the mists directly.

 

There is also the evidence of Hemalurgy: You can only steal one Allomantic power out of all the Allomantic powers at a time. "Metal-based DRM" is not an excuse here because spikes that can steal Allomantic powers are mapped to more than one Allomantic power. For example, Steel can steal any of the four Allomantic Physical powers, and yet you can only steal one Allomantic Physical power at a time. Those powers are therefore clearly separate.

 

 

• As an addendum to the last point: I also strongly disbelieve that Investitures can be converted to one another. I am what you might call a proponent of the Law of Conservation of Intent, if you can call a theory a law. I strongly strongly feel that Breaths cannot be made into Stormlight, though Breaths can power Surgebindings. I've argued about this at length elsewhere.

  ...

• Also: I'm a little bit less than sold on the idea of there being "Allomantic Investitures". Again, another intuitive thing. It might be true; each metal type grants you a different mental enhancement, as far as I know, which could indicate different 'flavors' of Investiture, but then I look around and I see other Investitures (like Breaths) that can be unconverted from their specific types and I question the idea.

 

Those two items seem to contradict each other. You're saying that you don't think Intent can change, and yet you also know that Breaths can be reused for different kinds of Awakening Commands, which is to say that their Intents can change.

 

I think it's better to acknowledge that Investiture is incredibly complex. And just like other complex things, you can either model it as a single big object, or you can model it as a collection of many objects that just so happen to be connected to each other. (It's like how some philosophers reject the concept of self because people are just a collection of cells, which are in turn just a collection of atoms, etc.) It's all about your perspective.

 

The semi-debunked Shardic Lens Theory was one way to describe this "filtering" of complex power into smaller and smaller ones. That theory's flaw was that it assumed the Shards did not have power themselves. I believe my Unified Surge Theory can be generalized into a Unified Investiture Theory that treats all manifestation of Investiture as individual powers that can be "unified" into the power of the Shards, which can in turn be "unified" into Adonalsium's Power of Creation.

 

But that Cosmere theory (and the rest of the issues raised above) will have to wait another day because it's past midnight once again and I should really stop making huge posts in the evening so I can get enough sleep.

Edited March 5, 2015 by skaa

[Moogle]

Both of you seem to think that there is only one type of Allomantic Investiture. I think it's already a given that there's more than one: A Mistborn can certainly recognize more than one, as evidenced by the multiple power stores he can "see" and choose from, whether he ingested metals or is using the mists directly.

 

There is also the evidence of Hemalurgy: You can only steal one Allomantic power out of all the Allomantic powers at a time. "Metal-based DRM" is not an excuse here because spikes that can steal Allomantic powers are mapped to more than one Allomantic power. For example, Steel can steal any of the four Allomantic Physical powers, and yet you can only steal one Allomantic Physical power at a time. Those powers are therefore clearly separate.

 

I don't think we can take this as a given. Imagine each Allomantic power is simply a conduit on your soul, through which you force Investiture and get one of the sixteen powers. Hemalurgy just steals one conduit at a time. When a Mistborn 'sees' his reserves, he's just feeling the Investiture attempting to push against whatever valve he's got in place blocking the conduit. This model seems consistent enough and is supported by the WoB in the OP speaking about how the mists vaporized Vin, freeing them to be more expansive and not limited to a small Allomantic conduit.

 

Those two items seem to contradict each other. You're saying that you don't think Intent can change, and yet you also know that Breaths can be reused for different kinds of Awakening Commands, which is to say that their Intents can change.

 

I think it's better to acknowledge that Investiture is incredibly complex. And just like other complex things, you can either model it as a single big object, or you can model it as a collection of many objects that just so happen to be connected to each other. (It's like how some philosophers reject the concept of self because people are just a collection of cells, which are in turn just a collection of atoms, etc.) It's all about your perspective.

 

I wouldn't call the different flavors of Allomantic Investiture different Intents. I have no issues with converting Commanded Breath back to regular Breath. I just have an issue with converting Preservation into Ruin.

 

Thank you for your response.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Moogle

[skaa]

I wouldn't call the different flavors of Allomantic Investiture different Intents. I have no issues with converting Commanded Breath back to regular Breath. I just have an issue with converting Preservation into Ruin.

So when Sja-anat corrupts a Splinter of a Shard, does that Splinter's Intent not change from, say, Cultivation to Odium?

[Moogle]

So when Sja-anat corrupts a Splinter of a Shard, does that Splinter's Intent not change from, say, Cultivation to Odium?

 

It's unclear what Sja-anat is doing, but I would guess that what Sja-anat is doing is adding Odium's Investiture to the spren, rather than messing up what's already there. I find it difficult to believe a Splinter of Honor could have its intent perverted to become the rampaging murderer that a thunderclast is without an equal amount of Odium's Investiture.

 

And I'm not convinced Sja-anat is capable of corrupting someone like Syl or Vasher. I would suspect Sja-anat instead corrupts lower-power spren.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

Both of you seem to think that there is only one type of Allomantic Investiture. I think it's already a given that there's more than one: A Mistborn can certainly recognize more than one, as evidenced by the multiple power stores he can "see" and choose from, whether he ingested metals or is using the mists directly.

 

There is also the evidence of Hemalurgy: You can only steal one Allomantic power out of all the Allomantic powers at a time. "Metal-based DRM" is not an excuse here because spikes that can steal Allomantic powers are mapped to more than one Allomantic power. For example, Steel can steal any of the four Allomantic Physical powers, and yet you can only steal one Allomantic Physical power at a time. Those powers are therefore clearly separate.

[snipping the rest, because I mostly want to respond this bit]

 

The different "types" are explained by the "DRM" of the metals. The Dor is simply raw power, but when it passes through Aons it gets limited. The metals, per WoB, act similarly to Aons.

 

Hemalurgy is different than Allomancy. I agree with Moogle about the conduits, although I think it's a two-part system in which the metal is the filtering conduit and the soul simply checks for the metal, which is why Compounding works.

[Meg]

Why do some of you think there are different types of Investiture? I've found that WoB I spoke in Blaze's thread of -- it's quoted in Moogle's opening post in this thread:

 

Kaimipono (16 October 2008)
Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)
The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

source

 

I emphasized more than Moogle in his post because I think that whole description is fundamental.

 

My gut says there is only one Investiture. That is somewhere around where it has to be drawn from through the means of the "manifestations of this power in mortal form."

So there is Investiture, the Power of Creation. As for Adonalsium is shattered the Shards grant access to Investiture. The Shards have different Intents, but the Investiture is always the same. The use of Investiture on the different Shardworlds is siphoned by the Shards and their Intents and how the Shards created or adjusted the SpiritWebs of the inhabitants on their Shardworlds.

 

So I think there is no converting of Preservation to Ruin or such. But I also think there is no converting of "Commanded Breath" to "Breath" or vice versa. Breath is Breath, Investiture is Investiture. The only difference is if the "magic" is end-positive, end-neutral or end-negative. But that's not a thing of Investiture but of the form of magic used.

 

The Investiture, the power used to do "magic", is always the same, only the means by which this power is accessed and used differs because there are different "distributors" with different Intents.

 

Presumably Surgebinding is the "manifestation of this power in mortal form" on Roshar. As well as Breathes are on Nalthis.

 

Different Shards did create different possibilities to access Investiture and different adjustments in "their" human's SpiritWeb, probably in relation to their Intents and their intentions when they created or moved to their Shardworlds.

 

Surely this is disputable.

 

 

Edit: I found a WoB that seems to contradict my ideas above:

 

Question
Can Odium pick up pieces of a Shard without changing the nature of his Shard?
Brandon Sanderson
Any investiture, over time, will slowly change one’s personality, no matter how small that investiture.

 

 

source, Weller Book Works Signing, Nov 6th, 2012

 

Though if Odium would pick up pieces of Devotion it would change him. But then: Devotion's Investiture is -- by my theory -- Investiture "siphoned" by Devotion's Intent, so not the basic Investiture would change Odium but Devotion's "stamp" on Investiture.

 

It's too late, I fear I babbled around.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Meg

[skaa]

@Meg: I'll quote part of my previous post that you might have missed:
 

I think it's better to acknowledge that Investiture is incredibly complex. And just like other complex things, you can either model it as a single big object, or you can model it as a collection of many objects that just so happen to be connected to each other. (It's like how some philosophers reject the concept of self because people are just a collection of cells, which are in turn just a collection of atoms, etc.) It's all about your perspective.
 
The semi-debunked Shardic Lens Theory was one way to describe this "filtering" of complex power into smaller and smaller ones. That theory's flaw was that it assumed the Shards did not have power themselves. I believe my Unified Surge Theory can be generalized into a Unified Investiture Theory that treats all manifestation of Investiture as individual powers that can be "unified" into the power of the Shards, which can in turn be "unified" into Adonalsium's Power of Creation.

 

Again, it's all about perspective. My Unified Surge Theory was directly inspired by Brandon's apparent fascination with the fundamental forces of physics, and one thing that's interesting about fundamental forces is that there is a valid way to view them as a single force. This is the unified field theory, the proposal that under certain conditions that were present in the very early universe, the electromagnetic, weak, strong, and gravitational forces act as a single unified force, which then gradually differentiated into separate forces as the environment changed. This, I believe, is how we should also view Investiture: as separate fields that can be visualized as a single field under specific conditions.

 

From the perspective of a very energetic massless particle that existed a billionth of a nanosecond after the Big Bang (or in a particle accelerator right now), there is no such thing as an electromagnetic force and a weak force, just a single electroweak force. But from the perspective of a guy sipping tequila in a bar and getting slightly tipsy instead of, you know, being a massless burst of exotic particles, the weak force is clearly something different from the electromagnetic force that's responsible for him seeing the girl across the table. There's just not much use in viewing the two forces as the same in that context.

 

Similarly, there's not much use in insisting that the Allomantic power to Pull metals is the same as the Allomantic power to Push metals unless you view both in the context of them co-existing within the mists. They are obviously different effects, even though they are part of the general set of Allomantic powers, which are part of the general set of the powers of creation.

 

And if you're going to complain that the correct term is the "Power of Creation" (singular) not "powers of creation" (plural), then let me re-quote that WoB that you previously quoted:

 

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them.

 

 

As you can see, Brandon feels free to use either term. The Power of Creation is a set of powers. It is singular when viewed as a whole, but plural when considering the constituent parts. It is all about perspective. I hope that is clear now.

 

 

---

 

 

@Moogle: I just wish to clarify my opinion RE:transforming one Shard's power to another Shard's power (e.g. Preservation to Ruin). I don't think it's something that is trivially doable. I think it is something theoretically possible but constrained by certain limits. Which is why I said previously that a Stormlight-infused Mistborn holding an Honorblade will gain access to that Honorblade's two Surges. The Honorblade will not trivially power Allomancy. If you want an Honorblade that powers Allomancy with Stormlight, you'll need to create one (or maybe wait for Honor to create one) that can specifically transform Stormlight into Allomantic powers.

 

The reason why I think this is theoretically possible is because transformation is one of the powers of creation. And some transformative Investiture can transform other types of Investiture.

 

Imagine a piece of infused gemstone that is not a fabrial. The Stormlight inside it doesn't really do much except glow inertly and slowly diminish. Now, imagine Kaladin Investing himself with the Stormlight from that gemstone. Then, with the Intent of sticking a pebble to the wall, he Invests the pebble with Stormlight and presses it against the wall.

 

What happens? The Stormlight that was Invested into the pebble is no longer inert. It has become something that could stick things together. It has become the Surge of Adhesion. I've theorized before that it is the spren (the transformative cognitive entity) that transforms Stormlight from an inert unified Surge (containing all the Surges that more or less balance each other out with a couple of exceptions) into a more focused, more active Surge.

 

Given that there are examples of one type of Investiture being transformed into another type of Investiture, it now becomes a matter of how constrained a Shard's transformative powers are, and how difficult it is for him to transform another Shard's Investiture. It might be extremely difficult for a specific Shard. It might even be impossible for him under his current situation. But I don't see why it should be impossible for Shards in general.

Edited March 6, 2015 by skaa

[Meg]

@Skaa: Thank you very much for your reply. As for I'm at work I can't read it intensly at the moment, but be assured that I do really appreciate when one is replying (and -- if necessary -- correcting) me.

[Senor Feesh]

The semi-debunked Shardic Lens Theory *snip*

 

Wait, SEMI-debunked? Has there been some new info come to light which has given this new legs? o.O I'd put that one in the ground months ago!

[skaa]

Wait, SEMI-debunked? Has there been some new info come to light which has given this new legs? o.O I'd put that one in the ground months ago!

 

LOL. I like to think it could still serve as a good analogy for Investiture if you reworded it so that the "light" being filtered is inside the Shardic lens itself, like a tinted glass sphere glowing with its own inner light (rather than one originating externally), filtering the light with its coloring. It's not a perfect analogy, but I think it's good enough.

 

@Skaa: Thank you very much for your reply. As for I'm at work I can't read it intensly at the moment, but be assured that I do really appreciate when one is replying (and -- if necessary -- correcting) me.

Think of it as me trying to defend my position instead of me trying to correct you. You say Investiture is its own singular entity, and I'm saying that while that may be true in a certain point of view (and so there's nothing to correct there), it doesn't invalidate the "Investiture as a collection of powers" perspective I chose for my silly car analogy. Investiture is complex enough to be described either way, but I feel the plural perspective is more intuitive and useful when describing Allomancy.

 

The funny thing is this singular/plural Investiture issue wasn't even central to my answer to Moogle's question. My main point was that both metal and Spiritweb can be filters because they filter different stages of Investiture: metals filter what type of power will be sent, the Spiritweb filters which Investitures will be recognized and accepted. This is why "bad alloys" are bad (the power sent is either imperfect or non-existent) and why Mistings can only burn one metal (because the powers mapped by other metals aren't recognized or accepted). The mists sidestep both possibilities of failure by (1) Investing the desired power/s directly and (2) modifying the Spiritweb to accept the power/s.

 

It's a simple model if you think about it. I didn't imagine my attempt at humor would obscure it so much!

Edited March 6, 2015 by skaa

[natc]

The thing about perfect analogies is that there is nothing about perfect analogies when it comes to things like natural law explanations. No verbal model is that good, an abstract mathematical one is probably the only accurate description once you get down to fine details.

And since magic doesn't quite work that way we have a problem. If it serves as a decent way to visualize things I'll take it, so long as people acknowledge the inaccurate points.

[Moogle]

Imagine a piece of infused gemstone that is not a fabrial. The Stormlight inside it doesn't really do much except glow inertly and slowly diminish. Now, imagine Kaladin Investing himself with the Stormlight from that gemstone. Then, with the Intent of sticking a pebble to the wall, he Invests the pebble with Stormlight and presses it against the wall.

 

What happens? The Stormlight that was Invested into the pebble is no longer inert. It has become something that could stick things together. It has become the Surge of Adhesion. I've theorized before that it is the spren (the transformative cognitive entity) that transforms Stormlight from an inert unified Surge (containing all the Surges that more or less balance each other out with a couple of exceptions) into a more focused, more active Surge.

 

On a general note, since there's no way I can argue effectively with the complete lack of evidence, I will simply say that requiring a specialized Honorblade to power Stormlight with Allomancy seems entirely too complex and I strongly suspect it is much much simpler.

 

In the same way, I'm going to stick to my guns and continue to feel that different Investitures (as in from different Shards) simply cannot be converted between one another. I don't feel your examples show this is possible - the Stormlight that was Invested into the pebble seems to still be the same. Note that it glows, as if it were still Stormlight. In a similar way, Shallan infuses Pattern with Stormlight, and this raw Stormlight is fully capable of powering an illusion Shallan previously set up. Scene for quick reference:

“Can you hold Stormlight?” Shallan asked Pattern.

“I don’t . . . I mean . . . Investiture is the means by which I . . .”

“Here,” Shallan said, pressing her hand down on him, muffling his words to an annoyed buzzing. It was an odd sensation, as if she’d trapped an angry cremling under the bedsheets. She pushed some Stormlight into him. When she lifted her hand, he was trailing wisps of it, like steam off a hotplate fabrial. “We’re bonded,” she said. “My illusion is your illusion. I’m going to get a drink. See if you can keep the image from breaking apart.”

She backed to the sitting room and smiled. Pattern, still buzzing with annoyance, moved down off the bed. She couldn’t see him— the bed was in the way— but she guessed he’d gone to Veil’s feet. It worked . The illusion stayed.

“Ha!” Shallan said, getting herself a cup of wine. She walked back and eased onto the bed— flopping down with a cup of red wine did not seem prudent —and looked over the side at the floor , where Pattern sat beneath Veil. He was visible because of the Stormlight. I’ll need to take that into account, Shallan thought. Build illusions so that he can hide in them.

“It worked?” Pattern said. “How did you know it would work?”

“I didn’t .” Shallan took a sip of wine. “I guessed.” She drank another sip as Pattern hummed. Jasnah would not have approved. Scholarship requires a sharp mind and alert senses. These do not mix with alcohol. Shallan drank the rest of the wine in a gulp.

“Here,” Shallan said, reaching down. She did the next bit by instinct. She had a connection to the illusion, and she had a connection to Pattern, so . . . With a push of Stormlight, she attached the illusion to Pattern as she often attached them to herself. His glow subsided. “Walk around,” she said.

 

You could argue here that Pattern himself is filtering the raw Stormlight given to him to power the illusion, but it seems to me to be much more accidental until Shallan explicitly links the two, and what's happening is that the Stormlight leaking from him is being drawn in by the illusion to power it, like the illusion is a black hole for Investiture. And even once it stops glowing, Shallan has previously noted this is merely her taking the Stormlight she is leaking from her body and redirecting it to the illusion so she doesn't glow.

 

(I would also like to note that Pattern has shown no signs of being capable of actually using the Surges himself, besides actually being an instantiation of Transformation and Illumination. He can't breathe in Stormlight and Soulcast something, as far as I know, so his being able to filter the Investiture Shallan gave him into powering an illusion seems particularly unlikely. He also seems surprised that it worked, further suggesting no conscious effort on his part.)

 

My view would be more that Surgebinders/Awakeners infuse the raw Investiture into something, and they set up a conduit/drain for it where the Stormlight/Breath can go through and cause the effect they want. The Investiture itself has not become the effect, it is simply powering the effect. Electricity is not an electric motor, but an electric motor can be made to turn if you hook a battery up.

 

When the electricity returns to ground, or rather then the Investiture is used up, this results in what Brandon terms as "turning the Investiture into a different form". In the case of Stormlight, this probably means it returns to the Spiritual or something and is attracted by the highstorm, and for Awakened objects, the conduit keeps sucking and recovers the spent Breath via some sort of gravity-analogue. WoB on this:

Q:  Why is Breath not consumed in Awakening, unlike most all other uses of Investiture?

 

The answer to this question was a bit beyond the depth of my Cosmere knowledge, but i will attempt to paraphrase as best I can.

 

A: Not all investitures are "used up." Must like energy, it isn't typically created or destroyed, just changes form. With Breath, in what it's used for, it is just more easily and readily recovered than in other forms.

(source)

 

Note it is paraphrased and I am interpreting it into speculation in my above writings.

 

Finally, and more a quibble than anything: Brandon calling spren transformative Cognitive entities has more to do with their ability to change shape than their Investiture-shaping powers, I would bet. I think you're stretching the word, there. The most obvious parallel to the spren would be the blue shapeshifting things of Mythwalker, which I would also term 'transformative Cognitive entities'. I note that the spren of Roshar take different forms depending on the viewer - Eshonai views spren in a completely different way than the human PoVs we've seen.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Moogle

[laxrulz777]

Moogle, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I do think that the Canon and the WoB are a bit muddied and that certain really old WoB probably aren't as valid any more. Brandon has tweaked the story in ways that he never saw coming already.

 

Personally, I think the magic systems grow organically from the ways the shards interact with each other (and POSSIBLY with the planet). I think it's an open question on what magic would show up where if Preservation / Ruin took a 3 century vacation to Roshar while Honor / Cultivation / Odium came to Scadrial. Would they switch magic systems? Would they stay the same? Would they each get something new and different? It's not fully clear. My gut is that the planet is irrelevant and it's the shard (or combination of shards) that develops the way the investitures manifest.

 

As such, I believe you're right that Stormlight can't be converted to Breath. Raw investiture is unique to the shard. I think using foreign investiture to power your own magic is also a skill you'd have to learn (or maybe a rewiring your body would do...). I would liken it to they way your body burns Fat and Carbs for energy. Your body produces energy far, far more efficiently from Carbs then it does from Fat. But you CAN produce energy from Fat. In the Cosmere, this is something that (maybe?) you can even retrain your body to do over time (the way Vash is keeping himself alive with Stormlight).

 

As to the specific case of Scadrial, I think this is what's happening. Brandon has multiple times described the metal as a "catalyst". It's an ingredient that makes the manifesting of the investiture "easier", potentially through the molecular shape of the element/alloy. But your body is still a limiting factor on the "shape" the power takes. When Vin was exposed to the mist, she was able to tap into so much raw Investiture that the need for the catalyst wasn't necessary. To her, this felt like her metal reserves filling up but that's just the way she interpreted the sensation of being suffused with power. I think of it this way, the body takes in investiture in small amounts just by being on the planet. Most people can't actually absorb the raw form (mists) but that doesn't stop them from absorbing little bits here and there from simply living. Some people can channel that investiture into various affects. Some people have a broader aptitude (Mistborn) while some are simply specialized in one type of investiture->power conversion (Mistings). The metal serves as an amplifying catalyst. It, potentially through it's molecular shape, magnifies the affect greatly. We don't have evidence of this, but it wouldn't surprise me if Vin or Kelsier was actually able to manifest powers without any metals at all but it's at such a tiny, minute level (without Mist) that no one notices. Give them enough investiture in the form of Mist and they're so overloaded that they can skip the metal use altogether (or, possibly the Mist is just a far, far better and more universal catalyzing agent then the metal).

 

Now, as to whether she could have manifested Feruchemy? This is an open question but I think "No" for two reasons.

1) She wasn't really wired that way. She'd gotten really good at tapping into the allomantic pathways of her Spirit Web (note, I say Allomantic because she is able to sense new metals when confronted with them... she has a pretty open and adaptable Spirit Web in that way) but had never practiced and/or was completely unable to do Feruchemy.

2) I think it's also possible that Feruchemy is the magic "shared" by Preservation and Ruin. As such, the Preservation Mists alone wouldn't let you power it (nor let you do un-focused Hemallurgy either).

 

I think that, in the abstract, you could perform Selian magic with simply a gaseous supply of Selian Investiture. However, it's entirely possible that you might need to still draw the symbols. The reason is that your knowledge of how to use the powers is critical to how you manifest them. Being given the gas alone doesn't give you knowledge you didn't have. Vin didn't use time slowing on the Lord Ruler because she didn't even know it was a thing. It's possible that the metals-in-your-stomach catalyzing agent is something that you do involuntarily and so, being infused with raw investiture simply makes that easy. Whereas the Selian magic system is much more rigidly defined and based on symbols that are Cognitively known. So if you were exposed to the gas on Sel, you might just feel full of power but still have to draw the symbols to get it out.

 

I like to think of the powers like Athletic Talent (as far as I'm concerned, Michael Jordan's ability to dunk the ball might as well be magic). They're things you can train for and get better at but also dependent on what foods/medicines you put in your body as well as your natural gifts. Now if you're a lineman for an NFL team, you manifest your Athletic Talent as "Strength" primarily. You can take steroids and make yourself stronger and just simply better. BUt if you're a Quarterback, those same steroids will make you stronger but your real Athletic Talent is your throwing accuracy. That's how your ability manifests. So the steroids will have SOME impact. But you'll still have to throw the ball (and throw it accurately) to make use of your talent. That's not quite a perfect analysis but I think it works here.

 

On Compounding, I've never been fully satisfied with the Compounding explanation. It feels like some literary Deis Ex Machina that was used and never explained. I hope there's a broader explanation from Brandon but the above will work for that. Feruchemists put investiture (shaped into a particular type of magic like "strength") into the metal. They're using the metal as a battery. The metal can hold that type of magic because of it's molecular / catalytic characteristics. The Ferrumancer can also pull that magic out. The difference is that a Ferruchemist isn't actually able to use the catalyst like abilities of the metal. So for him, it comes out in a 1:1 ratio. But the Allomancer + Ferruchemist does have the catalytical ability. So he puts in 1 unit of energy but, when he pulls it out, he can use the catalyst of the metal in his body to magnify at a higher ratio.

 

Finally, mechanical allomancy is definitely something he's going to have to explain. I suspect that there will be some sort of "Artificial Spirit Web" or a proxy of that web that will be needed to manifest Investiture in this way. I think that's essentially what's happening with the Fabrials and gemstones in Roshar. The gemstones are natural Stormlight batteries and the Fabrials are carefully and intricately crafted "Spirit Webs / Circuit Boards" that the battery runs the Stormlight through. I suspect that if you tried to power a Fabrial with Breath, you'd find that it either didn't work or it worked differently (maybe even breaking the device).