Miles

[Straff Venture he/him]

Just a small topic really, but I noticed a few things in the Alloy of Law that suggest Miles is not a natural twinborn but actually a compounding hemalurgist. I'm not sure if this would have any lasting effects on the trilology, but it does explain some of Miles' behaviour. Here are the points.

1) Metalminds: Miles has metalminds driven into his skin as well as in his body. Only contact is needed with the metal for feruchemy while hemalurgy needs contact with the blood. Of course, there are two problems with this; Miles consumes his metalminds in compounding and Miles still has his powers when the constables strip him of his metalminds. The solution to these problems are that Miles' hemalurgic spike(s) (multiple spikes might explain why he can heal so quickly, as compounding might not even be capable of this) and that because they are pierced inside his body he would not use them for compounding anyway.

2) Change in behaviour: Miles turns from a devoted (though ruthless) lawkeeper to an outright criminal. A quote from Ranette on page 235 shows the unusual change in Miles' views.

"Miles always had a darkness in him, I know. But this? Are you sure?"

The scene where Miles uses his powers as an augur also shows the unusual path that he has followed.

3) Miles' death scene: While he is gunned down by the firing squad, he shouts out about 'the bears of the final metal'. I have no idea who the bearers are but the manner in which Miles says this, especially as it is in his final moments, sounds like something that would come from a more powerful force controlling him.

So from what I've seen, it looks like Miles was spiked early on in his life without knowing, perhaps so that he could be later controlled by a powerful force. This force would have caused him to later commit the actions he does within the Alloy of Law, when he finally succumbs to the influence of the being using his hemalurgic spikes against him. Perhaps Miles' growing bitterness was similar to Vin's doubts about Elend, in this case causing Miles to increasingly hate modern civilisation on Scadrial.

[Aminar]

I don't think so. Being spiked now just grants Sazed access. I would think Sazed being able to talk to him might have averted the whole thing unless Sazed is the villain. Making him a hemalurgist won't make him evil.

I'm also of the opinion Hemalurgy doesn't allow for compounding... But that's just a theory based on my interpretation of the whole spiritual DNA thingy.

[Windrunner he/him]

I agree with Animar, I heavily doubt that Miles was Hemalurgically spiked. Miles smoked red and gold cigars, which Brandon heavily implied is related to the men of gold and red. (Personally I think there's a connection to the southern continent there, but that's irrelevant in this topic) Miles just has some insider info. He knows he'll die, but he also knows that these "men of gold and red" are going to do something that will end up with the people of Elendel enslaved. So he's throwing this out there as one last REDACT you to his executioners.

Also, Aminar, Inquisitors can Compound.

Inquisitors knowing how to Compound: some may have figured it out at some point. I got the impression it was not a technique the Lord Ruler taught them.

Source

No Inquisitors would have had natural Feruchemy, so they must have been using attributes stored during spikes, and usually were burning the metals thanks to spikes as well. Sorry to burst your theory

[Aminar]

I agree with Animar, I heavily doubt that Miles was Hemalurgically spiked. Miles smoked red and gold cigars, which Brandon heavily implied is related to the men of gold and red. (Personally I think there's a connection to the southern continent there, but that's irrelevant in this topic) Miles just has some insider info. He knows he'll die, but he also knows that these "men of gold and red" are going to do something that will end up with the people of Elendel enslaved. So he's throwing this out there as one last REDACT you to his executioners.

Also, Aminar, Inquisitors can Compound.

No Inquisitors would have had natural Feruchemy, so they must have been using attributes stored during spikes, and usually were burning the metals thanks to spikes as well. Sorry to burst your theory

That quote is so horribly wishy washy. "I got the impression." "Some may have" There is no narrative suggestion of compounding inquisitors, and if Ruin had access to compounding inquisitors he'd have crushed any resistance. Thus I can only infer there weren't any, especially because one of the obvious things they would have been able to compound would have been speed, meaning they could have been almost anywhere. It's far too vague and unsupported to me. But I might be jaded by trying to interpret some of Jim Butcher's comments to his readers. If the Inquisitors were compounding it is a HUGE gaping plothole that kills the whole thing for me. As in makes the trilogy badly written just like that.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Aminar

[Observer]

His death cry sounds an awful lost like the death cries on Roshar. Anybody else get that impression?

[Windrunner he/him]

That quote is so horribly wishy washy. "I got the impression." "Some may have" There is no narrative suggestion of compounding inquisitors, and if Ruin had access to compounding inquisitors he'd have crushed any resistance. Thus I can only infer there weren't any, especially because one of the obvious things they would have been able to compound would have been speed, meaning they could have been almost anywhere. It's far too vague and unsupported to me. But I might be jaded by trying to interpret some of Jim Butcher's comments to his readers. If the Inquisitors were compounding it is a HUGE gaping plothole that kills the whole thing for me. As in makes the trilogy badly written just like that.

Okay I'm going to get majorly off-topic for a second here, Straff. My apologies.

I think you overestimate the power of the Inquisitors. Firstly, Hemalurgic decay would have made it more difficult to store an attribute, as well as receiving less power when the metalmind burned. Secondly, there weren't a whole bunch of Inquisitors left, and there were no hints of making more. If I'm recalling correctly there was about 12-15 left throughout Scadrial during the events of the second and third books. So their resources would have been stretched thin. Thirdly, most inquisitors wouldn't have the ability to do a whole lot of compounding. Lets just talk about the (arguably) most useful abilities for an Inquisitor. Double gold and pewter would have been difficult to beat. However, there were very few Inquisitors equipped with an Allomantic gold spike. The Lord Ruler wouldn't have wanted them to have one. So the options here are either to find an Augur, which are considered fictional so most would be unaware of their powers, or to kill a Mistborn. Unless you're an Inquisitor who was previously a Mistborn (which is rare and they wouldn't even need an Allomantic gold spike) most regular Mistborn would be a difficult opponents, even to an iron and steel savant like an Inquisitor. It would be extremely hard to get a spike in the right bindpoint. Another point to keep in mind is that many Mistborn were slaughtered in the wars between the books, while the Inquisitors were busy sacking Tathingdwen and tricking themselves out with Allomantic powers.

Now we can talk about double pewter, the other real combat problem. Firstly, no Inquisitor (in my memory, which isn't infallible) no Inquisitor ever really got a punch in on Elend or Vin. They could have been waiting for them to get closer and never got the chance. Also, you have to keep in mind that Ruin considered Vin and Elend to be his as much as he did any Inquisitor. He allowed them to kill the Inquisitors so they'd have an army that would be ready to turn on them, as well as trying to spike Elend and also so that they felt like they were accomplishing something. He really wasn't trying to kill them until the Battle of Fadrex City.

If you remember then, Marsh was the only Inquisitor in the area. They weren't close enough to utterly slaughter them. All the Inquisitors were sent after Vin in Luthadel, and they really stomped her, which makes sense if they were Compounding. (They wouldn't be able to do any of that Pushing on metals in stomachs because they weren't Lerasium Mistborn and they had no nicrosil for Allomantic Compounding) They broke her arms like toothpicks and had overwhelming numbers. They might not have even felt the need to Compound, until Vin drew the mists they had an assurance of victory. After she drew the mists those who could Compound a useful power would have been doing so, but she was practically impossible to beat, so she wouldn't have noticed. Marsh fighting Elend didn't go well for Elend either. After he lost the power of atium, he was pretty much dead right away.

I really really don't think it's a plot hole that some Inquisitors could Compound. If it was impossible or some sDNA trick, I don't think Brandon would have gone wishy washy. He would have either said no or RAFO'd us. If you look at the interviews, he never really lies or intentionally misleads us on things. He either sidesteps a question or refuses to answer it. Do I have any flaws in my arguments, that I've missed? Everything that I can think of checks out just fine according to what I know, but I'm not infallible (especially when it comes to Mistborn) so there's a real possibility that I've missed a detail somewhere.

His death cry sounds an awful lost like the death cries on Roshar. Anybody else get that impression?

Yes, this possibility was brought up here. Feel free to add anything we missed there.

[Aminar]

I had a more in depth post. It dissapeared.

You're forgetting the fact that Feruchemical pewter and Steel have pretty spectacular special effects. A Pewter compounder should look like someone off a comic book cover, rippling muscles beyond human possibility. Steel Compounders should be moving at at least 50 MPH pretty reliably and likely more than that. Those aren't subtle aspects that can easily be hidden in the narrative and if the inquisitors figured compounding out they would have been using it, likely showing it. Yet even in the scene where Vin is getting dominated we don't see any Inquisitors doing anything close to compounder levels of power. We see her falling to numbers, nothing more.

[Windrunner he/him]

I made the point that there was no need to Compound there, they had the numbers. Why waste your stores when you don't have to? I discussed pewter in my post as well. Ruin wasn't trying to kill Vin and Elend until the end, so there was no need for pewter. Even Marsh trying to kill Elend, if I'm remembering right he basically took his head off as Elend was coming out of his atium vision. No need to become the hulk there. There wasn't a need for the energy. Perhaps they'd even been busy and hadn't had time to recharge their storages. Inquisitors spent much time sleeping during the time of the Final Empire, it takes forever for them to build up a decent charge. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this conversation though. We're extremely off-topic. If you feel the need to disregard the quote, then I don't really have anything else to say to convince you. If you want to keep discussing this, feel free to start another topic, I'll even split off our posts from this one to get it going.

[Aminar]

I made the point that there was no need to Compound there, they had the numbers. Why waste your stores when you don't have to? I discussed pewter in my post as well. Ruin wasn't trying to kill Vin and Elend until the end, so there was no need for pewter. Even Marsh trying to kill Elend, if I'm remembering right he basically took his head off as Elend was coming out of his atium vision. No need to become the hulk there. There wasn't a need for the energy. Perhaps they'd even been busy and hadn't had time to recharge their storages. Inquisitors spent much time sleeping during the time of the Final Empire, it takes forever for them to build up a decent charge. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this conversation though. We're extremely off-topic. If you feel the need to disregard the quote, then I don't really have anything else to say to convince you. If you want to keep discussing this, feel free to start another topic, I'll even split off our posts from this one to get it going.

Is all right. There's a discussion in the what power would you have topic. Same quote even(I think). That said, given that it would be evidence against the person's theory I don't see it as offtopic. Definitely related. Problem being we've kind of already shut down the theory presented...

[Eric]

1) Metalminds: Miles has metalminds driven into his skin as well as in his body.

Easiest way to stop a Feruchemist? Take away his metalminds. If he's wearing them, a Push or Pull of sufficient strength would suffice. If they are embedded in his body, you're back to just trying to hack at him. This is the trick the Lord Ruler used for his bracers to keep them from being Pushed or Pulled away, and it should be basic logistics for Feruchemists ("make sure you always have your metalminds").

2) Change in behaviour: Miles turns from a devoted (though ruthless) lawkeeper to an outright criminal.

I'd argue that almost everyone was more terrified than shocked. Ranette takes two paragraphs to decide she believes them and doesn't have the equipment, Wax decides a bullet in a man's skull is the safest way to double-check his intuition, and Wayne is just Wayne about the whole thing. (Marasi never quite got the fear until she was caught near the end, but it made her go to the execution just to feel like it was over.)

3) Miles' death scene: While he is gunned down by the firing squad, he shouts out about 'the bears of the final metal'. I have no idea who the bearers are but the manner in which Miles says this, especially as it is in his final moments, sounds like something that would come from a more powerful force controlling him.

What does Harmony stand to gain from doing so? He's the only Shard we know of in the area. If not Harmony, then whom?

[Straff Venture he/him]

It was a long shot, and I'm not up to date on interviews.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Straff Venture

[Vortaan he/him]

It's an interesting idea, but Harmony being the one who would have the in kind of spoils it. Also keep in mind that Miles was a lawkeeper, and I'll wager quite a few of the bandits in the Roughs are Coinshots and Lurchers. In that case, wearing your metalminds, particularly the amount that Miles would need, is just silly. Actually, Wayne's armbands seem a bit silly in that respect too.

[king of nowhere]

I'll go with the "sazed is the only shard there, so there should be no one to influence miles hemalurgicaly". I also am a fan of Occam's razor, in this case stating that miles pierced himself with his metalminds just to protect them from allomancy. I am aware that Occam's razor is not a good way to predict books or other fictional stuff, however.

Also, if I were miles I would have swallowed a big chunk of gold, big enough that it would stay stuck in the stomach. It would be protected from allomancy, and gold is the only allomantic/feruchemical metal that would resist digestion practically forever. Maybe he did and that was the last metalmind he had at the execution

[Eric]

Actually, Wayne's armbands seem a bit silly in that respect too.

Perhaps deliberately. Someone tries pushing or pulling on them, and he taps a lot of weight. Suddenly they're moving instead of him. For the occasional unwary Coinshot or Lurcher opponent, it's a good ace in the hole.

[Straff Venture he/him]

Perhaps deliberately. Someone tries pushing or pulling on them, and he taps a lot of weight. Suddenly they're moving instead of him. For the occasional unwary Coinshot or Lurcher opponent, it's a good ace in the hole.

But what about Wayne? I'm guessing you read it as Wax, thats something I always do when reading the Alloy of Law.

[Millennium]

I don't think so. Being spiked now just grants Sazed access. I would think Sazed being able to talk to him might have averted the whole thing unless Sazed is the villain. Making him a hemalurgist won't make him evil.

There's more to the way Hemalurgy messes with your head than just letting Ruin in, though. Quite apart from that, some kinds of spikes -for example, the ones used to make Koloss- are worse for the psyche than others. Depending on what type of spike Miles has -I forget exactly which would be necessary- he might be hearing very different voices from Sazed's, not because anyone is trying to contact him but just because he's going insane. His habitual use of allomantic gold could very well make things worse.

[Eric]

But what about Wayne? I'm guessing you read it as Wax, thats something I always do when reading the Alloy of Law.

I did, you're correct. Wayne relies more on misdirection than anything else.

[Aminar]

There's more to the way Hemalurgy messes with your head than just letting Ruin in, though. Quite apart from that, some kinds of spikes -for example, the ones used to make Koloss- are worse for the psyche than others. Depending on what type of spike Miles has -I forget exactly which would be necessary- he might be hearing very different voices from Sazed's, not because anyone is trying to contact him but just because he's going insane. His habitual use of allomantic gold could very well make things worse.

None of the power based spikes mess with people's heads in the way you are discussing. We've seen Vin and Spook get spiked without going evil. The only spikes that cause severe mental problems outside of a vulnerability to ruin are the ones used in blessings which put a portion of the spiked persons mind into someone else creating something akin to Schitzophrenia.

[Observer]

Only mental power/human attribute spikes mess with your head. How they do it, we don't know.

[Voidus]

We have WoB that mental fortitude spikes mess you up more than the others, as do other human attributes but in different ways. I think that spike location and number would be more important than what quality it takes though.