Voidus Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 I'm still hoping we see something more useful from the Pressure surge than the full lashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cris34b Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 I would personally be hard pressed between Aon Dor, because of the huge versatility of that ability, and Awakening. It really would depend on the number of Breaths I had. If I had reached at least the fifth awakening, probably Awakening, because immortality would then be matched up to the generic power of the Elantrians. The Aon Dor still shows much larger potential for power, but as an Awakener, you would be much more discrete. Elantrians have silver skin and white hair, not very subtle. With a large amount of Breaths as an Awakener, I could store all of my Biochroma in objects I wear to disguise myself, something Elantrians cannot do, at least, something we have not seen them do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 A Awakening Heightening has huge potential for pay off, based on the amount of Breath you buy. If I were a rich man, that's the way I'd go. If I were a poor man, and I have a wife so let's face it; I'm poor , I would choose Feruchemist. An ability dedicated to what I'm willing to sacrifice. PAAAlease, sacrifice is the name of the game. 2% of every attribute, every second? I'd never notice the difference. I'd have Metal-Minds filed to the brim. Zinc for when I'm arguing with the boss. Pewter for moving. Steel for bar fights. Copper fur nights at the bar I mean Feruchemy doesn't have 16 powers, it has 32! Filling and Tapping allows for multiple extrapolations of every attribute. Hey, some days I'm lazy, I Fill Iron at 50% and only Fill Steel at 20%. I'm on top, AND I get a net gain. Who could argue that ANY power beats the every day gain of this Art? Even if you wanted to play battle. I store zinc at a rate of 5% every minute, every hour if I want I can out think and outmove YOU for 3 minutes. Do you know how many ways I can break your neck in THREE MINUTES ?? I didn't think so. Feruchemy FTW! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cris34b Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 That is a surprisingly good argument in favor of Feruchemy, and I think I have to agree. Awakening if I'm super rich, Feruchemy if I'm poor, though I imagine buying all of the metal rings and bracelets and such would be a -bit- of a pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 That is a surprisingly good argument in favor of Feruchemy, and I think I have to agree. Awakening if I'm super rich, Feruchemy if I'm poor, though I imagine buying all of the metal rings and bracelets and such would be a -bit- of a pain. I thought about that. Keeping the metal on you might be a little heinous, but consider all the stuff you keep on you at all times anyway. Wallet, phone, keys, change, maybe a watch? There's alot of metal in all those items, and the majority of the metals used for the Arts are incredibly common; especially in today's modern world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoric Kitten Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I thought about that. Keeping the metal on you might be a little heinous, but consider all the stuff you keep on you at all times anyway. Wallet, phone, keys, change, maybe a watch? There's alot of metal in all those items, and the majority of the metals used for the Arts are incredibly common; especially in today's modern world. But none of these metals are pure. Trust me, you will be lucky to get one complete thought in there, or strength enough to lift your keyboard. So you will still need to spend money to get all that metal. Now, zinc supplements are the first thing to buy. You learn about stocks, store brainpower to the max, then tap every once in a while to make good three-second decisions about those stocks. You gain enough, and pay a smith for a Zinc ring or whatever. You continue with increased ability, then you expand to your favourite metal. Thing is, of all the all it's we only know the composition of bronze and steel. Because of that, you will need to expend huge amounts of time at a metallurgist's. Just so you all know, I have developed a way to get some of the effects of Feruchemy in real life, via psychology. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Obtaining these materials isn't an issue is my point. My watch is steel, my wedding ring is gold, I've got a necklace that is made of black iron. I'm already walking around with quite a bit of metal. Finding specific items made of the metal really shouldn't be difficult, with the exception of some funny ones I.e. bendalloy duralumin and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoric Kitten Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Obtaining these materials isn't an issue is my point. My watch is steel, my wedding ring is gold, I've got a necklace that is made of black iron. I'm already walking around with quite a bit of metal. Finding specific items made of the metal really shouldn't be difficult, with the exception of some funny ones I.e. bendalloy duralumin and such. The steel will not be pure, and therefore is very likely to either not work or work worse than intended. The black iron is not pure, and will not work, as it is some kind of alloy. Your wedding band is not pure gold, but an alloy of gold, sterling silver and copper, most likely, so it is not even electrum (gold and silver). Pure gold, you see, would be too soft for any wedding band, as it is about as tough as playing dough. So, you only have a faulty steel watch. See? As for brass, for example, you have at least twenty combinations of materials that are called brass, not even considering allomantic purity. Plus, as brass and bronze are largely the same, allomantic brass might be catalogued as bronze on earth. Same for bronze, pewter, nicrosil, bendalloy, and duralumin (which may have been mentioned in book 2). And remember, some of these metals are very expensive. It would definitely take time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robot Aztec Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 gold is not playing dough hee hee hee Romans MAKE COINS it woudl not work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoric Kitten Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Rome used high grade elecrum. That means 22K or so. 24K gold could be worked by hand at room temperature (20°C), which means a wedding band would be warm enough to get scratched to nothingness. Look at Wikipedia. It will tell you gold is malleable. It will also tell you that gold coinage does not use pure gold, and Sanderson will tell you base metals must be pure to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 metal purity is not a problem. you can order some pure one and have it custom made. it's not expensive to order some pure iron or copper or such. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robot Aztec Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Rome used high grade elecrum. That means 22K or so. 24K gold could be worked by hand at room temperature (20°C), which means a wedding band would be warm enough to get scratched to nothingness. Look at Wikipedia. It will tell you gold is malleable. It will also tell you that gold coinage does not use pure gold, and Sanderson will tell you base metals must be pure to work. I did chek wiki and here it says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aureus i. However, regardless of the size or weight of the aureus, the coin's purity was little affected. Analysis of the Roman aureus shows the purity level usually to have been near to 24 carat gold in excess of 99%. and saze wears gold ring for health and has no problem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoric Kitten Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) In FE, Sanderson says the 1% carbon content in steel makes it completely different. It is no longer iron, much less pure iron. I would assume the same rules apply all over the table, and gold would be under that rule. So, if a 99% iron is not pure iron, a 99% gold is not pure gold. Still, regardless of whether if this is possible, I am going to presume your wedding band cost less than 1,000$, and is not 24K, because most people don't go there. In the very unlikely event of having a pure 24K gold (actually, you need to be finer that 99%gold, if you agree with the ligic above), congrats! You now have enough gold to heal eight small wounds and a broken bone, enough not to die when you have been shot, or something similar, at the cost of several days' health (Sazed "day off, soup, bed" style). metal purity is not a problem. you can order some pure one and have it custom made. it's not expensive to order some pure iron or copper or such.The point is not basemetal purity, it is immediate availability of those pure basemetals, which is very close to zero. As for non-base metals (I listed the problematic ones in a previous post), you have to make so many combinations to dicover both the materials and the exact percentage, that it will cost huge amounts of research and work. Now, this all is not to detract from Feruchemy, which is the best ever, but the theory of it's availability, which I believe is wrong. I still think Feruchemy is sweetest, which is why I developed a psychological equivalent. Edited February 9, 2014 by Ookla the Tardy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Feruchemy is perfectly available, you are correct ookla that obtaining pure metals might be difficult. If this were the Dark Ages. We live in the 21st century and obtaining anything is only a few clicks away. Metallurgy is advanced enough to produce the perfect percentage of Alomantic pewter, steel, brass, and bronze. Just we can't dig in our pocket and produce what we need immediately is no reason to be discouraged. What I was trying to imply was that the metal we carry can be made from feruchemical metals. A pure gold ring, can be encased in a steel enclosure, only a little has to actually touch your skin. For every difficulty that arises we have solutions. All we need is time, and that we have in abundance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 In FE, Sanderson says the 1% carbon content in steel makes it completely different. It is no longer iron, much less pure iron. I would assume the same rules apply all over the table, and gold would be under that rule. So, if a 99% iron is not pure iron, a 99% gold is not pure gold. As a chemist, I often wondered exactly how pure allomantic/feruchemical need to be, and how power drop scales with impurity. But I always assumed 99% should be fine, or fine enough. Getting something really pure is more difficult than it seems. I'm not even certain preindustrial technology can get you metals over 99% purity. Just for start, there are so many impurities in metals they used at the time, and they didn't even knew what they were or how to treat them. in those old times, steel was different in any part of the world because of different impurities. damascus steel owed its properties to some impurities there, and once the mine that made the iron with that specific impurity run out, they didn't knew how to replicate it. Steel from finland was resistent to corrosion because the ores contained nickel, and they used it for centuries, but they had no idea what it was, as nickel was formally discovered only in 1751. Basically, I think even a 95% purity would have been very difficult to get at the time (although I'm not so sure of that, cause metals are not my area of expertise, and neither is preindustrial technology). And if it is true that 1% more or less carbon in steel makes a noticeable difference, it also happens that in most metals 1% impurity is noticeable only with accurate analysis. So maybe the required purity is different for every metal and every impurity? say that allomantic steel must have carbon accurate within 1%, but can contain up to 3% other metals without losing much? Would make sense if allmomantic power was related to the cognitive form of the metal: if the metal "sees itself" as steel, then it works. so an impurity that will change its properties a lot will alter its cognitive form, while an impurity that changes little and is unnoticeable without modern technology don't change the cognitive identity of the metal and can be better tolerated. BY the way, in our current world there's at least one metal easy to get: copper in any electric device is over 99.9% pure. would be nice to store some memory in electronic circuits that are themselves storing informatic memory. Double memory storage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoric Kitten Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Feruchemy is perfectly available, you are correct ookla that obtaining pure metals might be difficult. If this were the Dark Ages. We live in the 21st century and obtaining anything is only a few clicks away. Metallurgy is advanced enough to produce the perfect percentage of Alomantic pewter, steel, brass, and bronze. Just we can't dig in our pocket and produce what we need immediately is no reason to be discouraged. What I was trying to imply was that the metal we carry can be made from feruchemical metals. A pure gold ring, can be encased in a steel enclosure, only a little has to actually touch your skin. For every difficulty that arises we have solutions. All we need is time, and that we have in abundance. What I said is that making metals is easy enough that pure base metals have become obsolete in almost all cases, which means that they are not readily available and just lying around, but rather, you will need to obtain them. Obtaining them is fairly easy, but must be done. King of Nowhere, please correct me about this, but are pure Zinc, Tin, Iron, Chromium and Cadmium widely used in everyday objects? As for alloys, is every possible alloy named Brass, Bronze, Pewter, Duralumin, Electrum, Nicrosil or Bendalloy (yes, that last one exists) present in everyday objects? (now, please note - I did not even mention the fact that those objects are supposed to be on your person at all times) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 The thing about Feruchemy as opposed to Allomancy seems to be that the quality only interferes with the efficiency rather than making you sick. You could probably buy a mess of scrap iron and store a fair amount of weight in it, even if it's not very compact storage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoric Kitten Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 But the only relevant pieces to this argument are the ones you already have. Doc said that you have all that to work with from the start, which I deny. I claim you don't have many usable metals on you by default, and will need to acquire them. After you did, however, I completely agree that you have wonderful powers and that they are very usable. But only after you acquired them. I love Feruchemy, and do not deny it's usefulness, nor any of it's other qualities, just the claim that it is useful out-of-the-box. This seems just wrong to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 10 ounces of pewter, three seconds of weakness, and you can double your strength for a second or so - enough to smash something. An iron bracelet, and you can climb things effortlessly while storing. Even a tinmind is immediately useful for nullifying your hearing so you can't be distracted. Brass can let you survive intense heat by storing it in the brassmind. All these things require very little, and are useful more or less immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoric Kitten Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Let's define immediately. If this is not the definition all of you who argued with me used, this debate had been a great misunderstanding and, most probably, a waste of time. Immediately means no buying or otherwise obtaining any items with the purpose or using the Feruchemically, only using items you already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I have a steel watch. I don't own much jewlery, but could conceivably. I have cast-iron furniture in my house. I have access to enormous hunks of steel in the form of bridges. I own pewter and brass things. All of these things are much closer to immediately available than any other magic system's focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoric Kitten Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Not if they are non-allomantic alloys. No, I don't mean non-pure alloys (which means same materials, wrong percentage, and would make an allomancer sick), I mean non-allomantic alloys (wrong materials, would kill an allomancer). These are much more common than allomantic metals, pure or otherwise. But, if you insist that I am wrong, I yield. Believe what you will, it doesn't make a difference anyway. Just out of curiosity, King of Nowhere, were my points about the metals not being used widely enough (the ones phrased as a question to you) true, according to your more extensive knowledge in the area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Let's define immediately. If this is not the definition all of you who argued with me used, this debate had been a great misunderstanding and, most probably, a waste of time. Immediately means no buying or otherwise obtaining any items with the purpose or using the Feruchemically, only using items you already have. For the purpose of this question: no, many are not immediately available. (Copper and Steel are notable exceptions) Nor would cut gems retaining Stormlight, Alomantic metals, or Aon Rao Foci. These are not the things I was arguing in favor of, from the very beginning: I thought about that. Keeping the metal on you might be a little heinous, but consider all the stuff you keep on you at all times anyway. Wallet, phone, keys, change, maybe a watch? There's alot of metal in all those items, and the majority of the metals used for the Arts are incredibly common; especially in today's modern world. I was attempting to communicate that keeping metal on you might be uncomfortable, or slightly inconvenient; but that there are many objects we carry that could conceivably be made into Metal-Minds. Perhaps that clears up some confusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoric Kitten Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Sorry, Doc. I misunderstood. If we were to replace these metal things by allomantic versions, that would be relly cool. With that, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eri Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Forgery. Edited February 12, 2014 by Eri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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