Emerald Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 I just found out the other day that Shalash is Jezrien's daughter. The coppermind wiki is awesome. As cool as it is, that just had me wondering about all sorts of other things. I tried finding some other answers, but didn't come across much, and wanted to know if I'm just missing something... Do we know anything/have any other theories about the implications this has for the rest of the Heralds? It seems like a Father/Daughter relationship is something that's too significant to be a one-off fun fact. Is it possible there's a Mother/Son, or Husband/Wife, or Siblings among the Heralds? Does this have any impact on how the KR work with each other? Jezrien and Shalash don't share any attributes (I thought maybe they would have one in common), but since they don't, are their attributes particularly complimentary to one another? Or perhaps more opposite. If I remember correctly, Honorspren and Cryptics don't exactly get along, and yet, they're the spren of a Windrunner and Lightweaver. Or is it Father/Daughter like the KR were considered "brotherhoods". Is it assumed that this is an actual, biological connection? When I found this out, I assumed that Shalash was born, grew up, and then she and her father became Heralds at the same time. I was also thinking it would be possible perhaps for her to have taken her mother's place as a Herald once Shalash grew up. Basically, I have a ton of questions and I feel like there are a lot of implications this one thing could have for the rest of the Heralds and the dynamics of the whole group. If Taln was related to one of them, if he was particularly special to one of them, how could they leave him behind? If he was special to someone, and it's possible that the "Taln" in the books is not actually Taln, could it be the family that abandoned him? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 I'm under the impression that they might not even all be of the same "species" of human. Discussing Herald ancestry is a very strange subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 We don't know enough to say much. The Heralds as a whole are important to the series, but they're kept in the background and we know next to nothing. I would assume Jezrien/Shalash are biologically related. The epigraph names her as the daughter of "kings and winds", which fits Jezrien. I don't think this is metaphorical - they're on opposite ends of the Surgebinding chart, and honorspren and Cryptics don't get along very well. Our WoB on the matter is also pretty forthright, that yeah she's his daughter: Chris King (Miyabi)Is Shalash the daughter of Jezrien?Brandon SandersonUmm... Oh, yes, she is his daughter.(source) There is a line connecting the Windrunners to the Lightweavers on the Surgebinding chart, so that might be meaningful. WoB is that that's because air + blood are philosophically connected by the philosophers of Roshar (or something like that), though. I can't find the WoB, and I've looked all over. It's relatively recent... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left he/him Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 I did not know this thing! Dang, this is really cool. We knew this two years ago?..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 WoB is that that's because air + blood are philosophically connected by the philosophers of Roshar (or something like that), though. I can't find the WoB, and I've looked all over. It's relatively recent... I am very interested in seeing this WoB, and it sucks that I can't find it. One of my theories is that the Transportation Surge should belong to the Essences of Zephyr and Blood since both air and blood have very strong associations with the concept of transportation (though I'm not quite sure why the Surge ended up with Tallow and Foil). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreathTaker he/him Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) This might the place to put this interesting tidbit i found today on my Warbreaker reread. Weatherlove wore a green and gold robe that hung from only one shoulder with a wrap around his waist that came down to mid-thigh. The outfit—patterned after the ancient dress of the Returned from paintings centuries past—revealed his sculpted muscles and divine figure Does this sound like something we'v all seen before?!?!?!?!? Hint: The carving of Naln in the Spire. Ok, so we know that Nalthis is part of the lesser Rosharan... whatever right? Halladrens are typically darker skinned people and if I'm right Naln is bigger-ish than normal people right? WHAT IF NALN IS ONE OF THE SCHOLARS AND HE WENT BACK TO NALTHIS TO STEEL NIGHTBLOOD AND THAT'S WHY VASHER IS THERE!!!!! Oh yeah... I think Naln is a Returned. If I didn't mention that before. Actually I think they all might be... Edited February 15, 2015 by BreathTaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left he/him Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 I was pretty sure Nalthis and Roshar were in different solar systems, because the Rosharan system has only Roshar/Braize/third novella planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreathTaker he/him Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 I thought I had read that Nalthis was in the Rosharan system... Somebody HELP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) The Greater Roshar System has Roshar, Ashyn, and Braize in it. Nalthis is in a different solar system, it seems. If Nalthis is one of the Expanses in the Shadesmar map, then it's connected to Roshar directly via the Cognitive Realm, so perhaps the two solar systems are close to each other? Edited February 16, 2015 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald Posted February 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I am very interested in seeing this WoB, and it sucks that I can't find it. One of my theories is that the Transportation Surge should belong to the Essences of Zephyr and Blood since both air and blood have very strong associations with the concept of transportation (though I'm not quite sure why the Surge ended up with Tallow and Foil). I just want to try to figure out what patterns to look for between Heralds. I know one father/daughter connection isn't much, but if that affects how their attributes work or don't work together, or if it gives us something to look for between other Heralds, I think it would be really interesting to learn about/figure out. I'll have to do some more close reading as I wok through WoR, but I just started, so I have plenty to look for. Also, I had a thought. Do we know anything about why Shalash is destroying art of the Heralds? It's been awhile since I've read WoR. But I was thinking that if Jezrien really has fallen into drunkenness (if he's the one at the pauper's feast at the start of WoK) could her habit be a sort of retaliation to him? Or perhaps a retaliation to what they've all become, since abandoning the oathpact. She's just disgusted with what they represent vs. what they actually are like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Also, I had a thought. Do we know anything about why Shalash is destroying art of the Heralds? It's been awhile since I've read WoR. But I was thinking that if Jezrien really has fallen into drunkenness (if he's the one at the pauper's feast at the start of WoK) could her habit be a sort of retaliation to him? Or perhaps a retaliation to what they've all become, since abandoning the oathpact. She's just disgusted with what they represent vs. what they actually are like.A popular theory on the matter (actually, the only theory on the matter that I've seen so far) is that the Heralds have now become the opposite of the attributes they represent (hence, "Creative" Shalash becoming destructive, etc.). This might be the direct result of breaking the Oathpact, or it could be caused by something else entirely.By the way, sorry for almost derailing your thread with my off-topic comments. Edited February 16, 2015 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvoraen Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 A popular theory on the matter (actually, the only theory on the matter that I've seen so far) is that the Heralds have now become the opposite of the attributes they represent (hence, "Creative" Shalash becoming destructive, etc.). This might be the direct result of breaking the Oathpact, or it could be caused by something else entirely. By the way, sorry for almost derailing your thread with my off-topic comments. *sneaks in* I'll put 50 (emerald broams) on 'the Heralds are now susceptible to the Unmade's powers' please. (I'm implying they were previously protected from the Unmade's influence, but now they're able to be... touched? by them, not to mention they probably draw the eyes of the Unmade wherever they go.) *sneaks out* 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Also, I had a thought. Do we know anything about why Shalash is destroying art of the Heralds? It's been awhile since I've read WoR. But I was thinking that if Jezrien really has fallen into drunkenness (if he's the one at the pauper's feast at the start of WoK) could her habit be a sort of retaliation to him? Or perhaps a retaliation to what they've all become, since abandoning the oathpact. She's just disgusted with what they represent vs. what they actually are like. She isn't destroying art of the Heralds, as far as we know. She's destroying art of herself. Shalash's statue was missing at Gavilar's feast, and she was tearing out the eyes of "Ipan, Lady of Dreams" in Baxil's interlude. (The epigraphs state she 'scratches out her own eyes', which suggests this was another name for her). Edited February 16, 2015 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 The Greater Roshar System has Roshar, Ashyn, and Braize in it. Nalthis is in a different solar system, it seems. If Nalthis is one of the Expanses in the Shadesmar map, then it's connected to Roshar directly via the Cognitive Realm, so perhaps the two solar systems are close to each other? Or we have a worldhopper Herald on our hands. Being Returned would actually leave the question of him taking in stormlight in the same situation as the question of how Vasher appears to be doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald Posted February 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 She isn't destroying art of the Heralds, as far as we know. She's destroying art of herself. Shalash's statue was missing at Gavilar's feast, and she was tearing out the eyes of "Ipan, Lady of Dreams" in Baxil's interlude. (The epigraphs state she 'scratches out her own eyes', which suggests this was another name for her). Aaah, I was mis-reading what exactly she was doing. When she's in the hallway destroying a bunch of different kinds of art, I thought it was of all the different Heralds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Aaah, I was mis-reading what exactly she was doing. When she's in the hallway destroying a bunch of different kinds of art, I thought it was of all the different Heralds. Well, she does destroy more than just art of herself. She smashes a vase. It's possible she does the other Heralds, but the epigraph and the fact that only the statue of Shalash was missing (and Shalash was known to be in the area shortly before) suggests she's got more of a thing against art of herself. But maybe she destroys other art. In Baxil's interlude, she's smashing and breaking a lot of undescribed things. I shouldn't have phrased things so strongly in my previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unhinged he/him Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Well, she does destroy more than just art of herself. She smashes a vase. It's possible she does the other Heralds, but the epigraph and the fact that only the statue of Shalash was missing (and Shalash was known to be in the area shortly before) suggests she's got more of a thing against art of herself. But maybe she destroys other art. In Baxil's interlude, she's smashing and breaking a lot of undescribed things. I shouldn't have phrased things so strongly in my previous post. Well the feast takes place before Baxil's interlude with several years in between them and we know that she's getting worse, perhaps at the time of the feast she was only breaking art of herself but now she's breaking everything? Granted that seems like a short span of time for such a big change but there are a lot of events that have gone down that might have caused her to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze1616 he/him Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Or we have a worldhopper Herald on our hands. Being Returned would actually leave the question of him taking in stormlight in the same situation as the question of how Vasher appears to be doing it. If he's a Worldhopper then he must be a Nalthian native. Only Nalthians Return. Do we have info on all the Heralds being Rosharan natives or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelsier Kenobi Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 If he's a Worldhopper then he must be a Nalthian native. Only Nalthians Return. Do we have info on all the Heralds being Rosharan natives or not? I seem to recall that question being RAFO'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lirins hand Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 So if the Heralds have familial relationships, is it really that surprising that there is one family that seems to be more strongly attractive to spren than the average? Do the Kholins have some direct lineage to the Heralds? (I know there was one place that specifically did NOT have heredity as an aspect of the magic system, can't remember if that was Roshar or not - If that is not Roshar:) could all the original KR have been "war babies" of the Heralds? (If I throw enough stuff against the wall, something's got to stick, right?) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvoraen Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 The real question I have about the Heralds, is if they all originated from the same kingdom, one that I presume was ruled by Jezrien and Shalash, and the other Heralds had duties similar to their Heraldic titles. (Taln was the head of that kingdom's armies, Nale was the Chief Justiciar equivalent, and so forth.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 The Heralds are the original Kholins, which is why the Knights Kholin are being founded. Adolin Kholin, Dalinar Kholin, Navani Kholin, Renarin Kholin, and Jasnah Kholin are only scratching the surface. First, Szeth's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-Grandfather was a Kholin. So Szeth is Szeth-son-son-son-son-son-son-son-son-son-son-son-son-son-son-son-son-son-Kholin. Kholin connection. There was a theory floating around that Kaladin's mother was part of a lighteyed or mix-eyed family. She's loosely related to the Kholin clan. Why is Lift on the run? She was kicked out by Dalinar Kholin on the night that his wife died (for some reason). Shallan's mother was also descended from the Kholins. See? The gang's getting back together. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left he/him Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 and Shshshshshhshs, was too much un-Kholin and had to be erased completely from Dalinar's memory and life. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 and Shshshshshhshs, was too much un-Kholin and had to be erased completely from Dalinar's memory and life. You've got it wrong. Remember that her name disappeared like a knife through hot butter. Here's what happened: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreathTaker he/him Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 HAHAHAHA! That was epic. What season is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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