The Nature Of Adonalsium (And Of Hoid)

[littlemag126 he/him]

Preface: So in the formulating of my thoughts for this post I did look at what has been written in some related posts. That being said I certainly have not read all of the posts related to this, nor am I aware of every word of brandon.  This is (in my opinion) a good thing, because it means my thoughts are my own, and could offer some unique perspectives.  So please do not be upset if I reiterate what others have already said, as I believe I will say it with a different perspective and viewpoint. Also, if I say something completely wrong due to some obscure word of brandon, I would request you tell me politely, and also realize that WoBs are less than perfect at times, as Brandon could be saying one thing but meaning another.  People often make, by mistake, inaccurate blanket statements when trying to answer questions in a way that doesn't "spoil too much." Brandon has probably done this many times already, if less than most people due to his efforts to keep his cosmere world comments rooted in the canon he has in his personal wiki.

 

Intro: There are two main areas that I will deal with, which are both separate and related, the natures (or postulated histories) of adonalsium and hoid. I want to talk about them in detail, but some of what I say wont make sense if you don't know where I am heading.  So here is my thesis apart from its arguments:

 

adonalsium was a man-formed tool which developed consciousnesses, adonalsium took measures before the shattering of its being to preserve its conscience in a being whom we now know as hoid.

 

Please do not discredit these statements until reading what I have to say.

 

important quotes (red one is very important):

 

“I learned it many, many years ago from a man who didn't know who he was, Your Majesty. It was a distant place where two

lands meet and gods have died.”

—Hoid to Siri on where he learned his particular method of storytelling.[17]

As Hoid developed that type of storytelling,[34] it's possible that the "man who didn't know who he was" is himself. Also, "where gods have died"and "many, many years ago" seem to speak of the Shattering. (from the coppermind)

"Nonsense. Balderdash. Figgldygrak. Isn't it odd that gibberish words are often the sounds of other words, cut up and dismembered, then stitched into something like them—yet wholly unlike them at the same time?

“I wonder if you could do that to a man. Pull him apart, emotion by emotion, bit by bit, bloody chunk by bloody chunk. Then combine them back together into something else, like a Dysian Aimian. If you do put a man together like that, Dalinar, be sure to name him Gibberish, after me. Or perhaps Gibletish.

”

—Hoid to Dalinar (after namedropping Adonalsium)[19]

“I began life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole. Myself. Another time, I was named for a rock.”

“A pretty one, I hope.”

“A beautiful one,” the man said. “And one that became completely worthless for my wearing it.

”

—Hoid to Kaladin[18]

The power needed a consciousness to direct it. In this matter, I am still rather confused. Why would power used to create and destroy need a mind to oversee it? And yet, it seems to have only a vague will of its own, tied in to the mandate of its abilities. Without a consciousness to direct it, nothing could actually be created or destroyed. It's as if the power of Preservation understands that its tendency to reinforce stability is not enough. If nothing changed, nothing would ever come to exist. -mistborn hero of ages epigraphs

 

(Edit: recently found and very relevant WoB

Q:  If Endowment were killed, would the Returned still come?
A:  Somebody needs to hold the magic. If no one holds the magic, the magic will start to gain sentience. Interesting and bizarre things happen then, so I would say yes, but with the caveat that with whoever picks up the power or what happens with the power could end up changing that.)
 

The nature of Adonalsium and of Hoid:

The two quotes that matter a lot to me in this section is the epigraph describing the nature of preservation's needing a conscience, and wits saying that he was a beautiful rock (for which he was named) that when he wore it made it "worthless."  Let us postulate that pre-adonalsium there were many powers in the universe, (it is hinted that adonalsium had a potential threat in many WoBs). Lets also say that some people decided to create an incredibly powerful tool by combining several powers into one, new, massively powerful creation.  Similarly to the way that Antium is the body of ruin, lets imagine adonalsium is a rock which is some sort of an alloy of many different power sources (this may be why the different shards appear to manifest in different physical forms).  

Now, the creators of this were looking to create a tool, a massively powerful tool, a "beautiful rock" that is adonalsium. They succeeded but failed to realize one thing.  The power needed a consciousness to direct it (look at HoA epigraph). Wit describes himself as having stolen his identity from words on a page.  I argue that adonalsium created a consciousness for itself from what he was able to observe in the world around him (if ruin could read and change writing, so could adonalsiums power observe it).

 

This made the tool useless. As hoid states, in "wearing" the power, he has made it "worthless" or, in my theory, useless to its creators. Imagine making a massive global defense satellite system, only to have the supercomputer that controls it develop into an AI.  You now have a massive weapon in the hands of an unknown and uncontrollable variable.  Whoever created adonalsium obviously was very powerful and knowledgeable, and sought to destroy adonalsium through other powers in the world. Back to the computer analogy.  If the super computer was stored at one sight, it is vulnerable, so what does it do?  It moves itself into many different servers and locations to prevent anyone from targeting it and destroying it.  

 

When adonalsium perceived a threat to itself, he sought to prevent his potential destruction by shattering himself into many separate parts.  However, he didn't want to die, but his consciousness, indeed his identity, was about to be shattered into 16 pieces, so what does he do?  He makes plans to bring his broken consciousness back together into a new host.  

 

Lets look back at Wits discussion with dalinar about breaking a man into different parts and bringing him back together into giberish.  I would argue that Wit talks about this in a sentimental way (name him after me part, and language like "bloody chunk by bloody chunk") as if he himself had that happen to him.  Look also at the quote about someone who didn't know who he was, in which he was apparently also describing himself, it makes sense that his recombining would leave him incredibly confused.

 

I would argue that adonalsium successfully managed to bring (at least parts of) his consciousness back together to form a "giberish" representation of his original self.  However, he only did so for his consciousness. I remember a WoB that hoid was offered a shard but turned it down.  It seems to me that someone who had once held all 16 shards together, and is now but a shade of what he was, a consciousness that had been torn apart and sown back together, would not want to hold but one aspect of himself, a constant reminder of the pain he had gone through.  Hoid's goal may indeed be to eventually reform adonalsium's body, but perhaps his previous consciousness gave Hoid the task of first ensuring the shards potential threats were removed, so that he could be safely reformed.

 

 

Notes:

One interesting comment on the coppermind about hoid is that he is Brandon's favorite character, which, if my theory is true, makes perfects sense.  Hoid would be, after all, the root cause of almost everything happening in the cosmere.

 

Perhaps Hoids love of stories comes from the fact that his very consciousness was created from stories or "words on a page." Maybe his concept was some hero in a story, and he assumed a consciousness that reflected it.  Note also that Hoid has a massive and extensive knowledge of stories.

 

One whole in my argument is the unfinished work on Dragonsteel and its first chapter, here are some quotes from it:

(edit: to clarify as someone pointed out "For clarity that is Liar of Partinel not Dragonsteel.  While it was technically part of the Dragonsteel sequence",

this is also a rather old work and certainly not cannon, however whatever does end up being written would likely share certain traits, so it can probably be "trusted" to give hints of hoids nature.)

 

But there had been a story to Midius’s life, and Hoid

loved stories. Midius smiled faintly, thinking of the old

man’s temperament. Hoid would rather accept a wildman,

bloodied and dangerous, into his company than the well-

trained son of a wealthy man. The man of the wilderness

had a better story.

A wildman. . . . Midius thought. Yes. Raised by the

Chan people. That’s who I was.

 

He describes himself similarly to the way that the Warbreaker quote does, he loves stories and doesn't know who he was, "a wildman." Perhaps hoid loved stories so much because adonalsium formed his consciousness from "words on a page." 

 

Midius studied the words again, then carefully rolled

up the parchment and tied the frayed string. “You were so

close,” he said. “You could feel it.” He placed the

scroll in a sack, then turned toward the corpse, resting on

its shelf-like bed at the side of the hut.

“I can’t solve the problem from here,” Midius said

softy. “I’m not smart enough for that.

 

Notice how he appears to have knowledge of the solution as if he knows how close his master was, but how could he know that? it appears the assassination just happened, and why wouldn't hoid tell his master? Also he says he isn't "smart enough for that." perhaps his return to consciousness left him without the knowledge that he had once held, only a dim shadow.

 

No. No he didn’t. This was him. He told himself 

that forcefully.

 

Perhaps he struggles with his identity, after all, in my theory he had pieces of a consciousness thrust into his brain bit by bloody bit.

 

He looked up at he body. “And thank you,” he

whispered. “For what you have done for me. I think you

shall never really understand the new chance you gave me

for life. For that, I shall try to see people as you did.”

 

He says he will try to see people as his master did.  Perhaps hoid hated people because at the moment of his forming consciousness people immediately plotted to destroy him and he had had to destroy himself to survive.

 

Hesitantly, he reached into a pocket and pulled out a

handful of dust. Then, he threw it into the air, imagining

his master’s face and Weaving the light.

That face appeared in front of him. Aged, wise,

beardless. Alive. As Midius remembered him. Midius

reached out, almost believing his own illusion for a

moment. However, as soon as he touched the face, it

shattered back to dust and sprinkled down to the ground.

 

this could be considered evidence of objects that held power other than adalniusm, he appears to have to use this dust to light weave, even as stormlight is used.  Perhaps this gives more basis for my assuming there were different objects of power that could have been formed together into adonalsium.

 

Conclusion: obviously most of what I have just said is very far-fetched and based only loosely in facts.  But heck, I had fun theory crafting, so now you guys can have fun tearing it apart "piece by bloody piece" and putting it back together into something new.  Also, sorry for making you read such a long chunk of text LOL

Edited February 19, 2015 by littlemag126

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

I've always believed that Adonalsium was artificial, made to defeat the Fain, but I've never been able to find proof for it. So everything you say makes sense in my head, and I can see how you came to the conclusions. But the WoB about him not taking up a Shard. Why would he be offered a Shard in the first place if they knew he was the 'AI' from before?

[littlemag126 he/him]

Q:  Since Hoid is the Horneater god, are there, or at least implied, would other Shards...
A:  Hoid is not a Shard.

 

that comes from a long list of WoBs someone else posted here http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6605-words-of-brandon-compiled/

 

 

as to where i remember the whole him being offered and turning down, i dont know where it came from, its just there in my head, i could very well be mistaken.  I will say, however, that if people took up the shards, they would likely be those involved in saving it, likely people who had worked with adonalsium somehow, who could have made the offer out of respect.  so yah, highly speculative, apparently not based in fact

the problem with WoBs is that there are so many that i can't keep track of where ideas came from

 

Q:  Is Hoid human?
A:  Hoid was human a long time ago. Now... it's complicated. We would call him human, and so will pretty much everyone else, but he is not exactly that.

 

this is another one that might support my idea that hoid had adonalsiums consciousness shoved into his head, if only very, very losely

Edited February 12, 2015 by littlemag126

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

I know about that WoB. I actually asked him a Clarification WoB. Hoid wasn't offered one of the 8 shards we already know of.

[littlemag126 he/him]

I've always believed that Adonalsium was artificial, made to defeat the Fain, but I've never been able to find proof for it. So everything you say makes sense in my head, and I can see how you came to the conclusions. But the WoB about him not taking up a Shard. Why would he be offered a Shard in the first place if they knew he was the 'AI' from before?

To further answer this, I would propose that there would have been some sympathizers.  The classic argument of can we destroy an intelligent life we just created that happens in AI plot lines could have happened.  Adonalsium plots with these people to take the shards off-world to hide from the imminent threat.  Perhaps this accounts somewhat for why the shards are scattered across the universe.  It makes sense, shatter yourself into pieces, arrange for your sympathizers to take them to safety.  You also arrange for your consciousness to survive, your sympathizers make the offer to maintain one shard, you turn them down.

Once again, all highly speculative.

[Mestiv he/him]

Nice theory Can you tell me where did you find this Dragonsteel fragment?

[littlemag126 he/him]

http://brandonsanderson.com/new-dragonsteel-chapter-one/  here u go

[WeiryWriter he/him]

For clarity that is Liar of Partinel not Dragonsteel.  While it was technically part of the Dragonsteel sequence, it is not the work we generally refer to as "Dragonsteel" (which is Brandon's Master Thesis).  From more recent comments if (and yes that is an if) Liar is re-written it is going to be very different since Brandon didn't really like the incorporation of aethers there.

[littlemag126 he/him]

For clarity that is Liar of Partinel not Dragonsteel.  While it was technically part of the Dragonsteel sequence, it is not the work we generally refer to as "Dragonsteel" (which is Brandon's Master Thesis).  From more recent comments if (and yes that is an if) Liar is re-written it is going to be very different since Brandon didn't really like the incorporation of aethers there.

My bad, i used the term dragonsteel because of the way the old blog post calls it "this new version of Dragonsteel chapter one."

[Darkness he/him]

“I learned it many, many years ago from a man who didn't know who he was, Your Majesty. It was a distant place where two 

lands meet and gods have died.”

—Hoid to Siri on where he learned his particular method of storytelling.[17]

I always assumed he learned it on Sel, where Devotion and Dominion were shattered by Odium, and the two lands refers to the battle between nations in Elantris.

I don't have a firm opinion on the 'man who didn't know who he was' though... Maybe a hoed gave him an idea while he passed through Elantris. With Hoid, who knows?

[littlemag126 he/him]

Q:  If Endowment were killed, would the Returned still come?
A:  Somebody needs to hold the magic. If no one holds the magic, the magic will start to gain sentience. Interesting and bizarre things happen then, so I would say yes, but with the caveat that with whoever picks up the power or what happens with the power could end up changing that.

 

i just noticed this quote, it gives some support for my theory about adonalsium, especially the way brandon says "interesting and bizzarre things happen then" as if it has already happened

 

Q:  Did Adonalsium deliberately shatter itself?

A:  Hmmm, good question! RAFO!

 

this is also relevant

Edited February 19, 2015 by littlemag126

[hoidhunter he/him]

Well...I always like to see people putting their ideas out there...even if I don't entirely agree with them. So here's an upvote for putting yourself out there...

 

 I'm not with you on the Hoid is Adonalsium's consciousness thing...mainly because...it just doesn't feel like it fits to me.

 

But aside from that...In Liar...we see hoid (midius) as a man (one who made a bid for leadership of his primitive tribe and lost...and was therefore cast out).  We have it in WoB that Hoid was present when adonalsium shattered...and I believe that Liar takes place BEFORE Adonalsium shattered...so...if Hoid was the mind of adonalsium in the scenes of Liar we have gotten to read...he certainly isn't aware that he is the embodiment of godlike power in the universe...and would henceforth make a poor controlling consciousness...

 

It's kind of lame to say...I love to theorize as much as anyone...but with so much story left to be written...I really have to wonder if it's even possible to extrapolate important facts like the true nature of adonalsium or hoid this far in advance.  It seems like Brandon is pretty good at being tight lipped about anything that could potentially spoil a story before it's written...and let's face it...this is THE thing that ALL of the stories are about.

[Rade]

This seems to fit especially well with a theory that I found somewhere on the site, once long ago, I don't know the link, most of what I do on here simply involves lurking. Anyways, the theory was that Hoid was recollecting samples of each Shard to reform Adonalsium. Instead, mayhaps he regains something of his old self/consciousness as he collects the samples.

[Darkness he/him]

Yeah... I was actually the main proponent of that one, but it didn't really go anywhere. Here's the link from April 2014's discussion, where a bunch of other people dance around the theory, at the end I reference my original thought from back in November 2013

My thoughts haven't changed on the matter, but I kind of killed the thread, so I gave up talking about it haha

Sorry if I kill your thread too

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Q:  If Endowment were killed, would the Returned still come?

A:  Somebody needs to hold the magic. If no one holds the magic, the magic will start to gain sentience. Interesting and bizarre things happen then, so I would say yes, but with the caveat that with whoever picks up the power or what happens with the power could end up changing that.

 

i just noticed this quote, it gives some support for my theory about adonalsium, especially the way brandon says "interesting and bizzarre things happen then" as if it has already happened

 

Q:  Did Adonalsium deliberately shatter itself?

A:  Hmmm, good question! RAFO!

 

this is also relevant

Reminds me of this theory thread about Adonalsium being a manmade God: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6597-theory-man-made-adonalsium/

 

I've been speculating that Hoid might be intending to reform Adonalsium for the last few (several?) years.  After a while I started thinking that if he does manage it, he's going to destroy again, but this time, he's going to do it right, no Shards, just diffuse it through all of the Cosmere.  It would make a lot of sense if Hoid was the one wielding it the first time when it Shattered, or if he managed to set events in motion so that it would be Shattered as soon as he let it go.

[natc]

Reminds me of this theory thread about Adonalsium being a manmade God: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6597-theory-man-made-adonalsium/

I've been speculating that Hoid might be intending to reform Adonalsium for the last few (several?) years. After a while I started thinking that if he does manage it, he's going to destroy again, but this time, he's going to do it right, no Shards, just diffuse it through all of the Cosmere. It would make a lot of sense if Hoid was the one wielding it the first time when it Shattered, or if he managed to set events in motion so that it would be Shattered as soon as he let it go.

Considering how he appears in scenes centuries apart and how shardworlds usually have history dating back a few thousand years (and yet still only happen post-Shattering) I question your definition of "several"

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I was talking about myself there.  It looks like at least three years, since Alloy of Law. 

 

Not sure if I considered it before Alloy of Law and finding out how much a double Twinborn could cheat the system simply by having access to two complementary magic systems.  Hoid with access to any number of magic systems and raw shardstuff like beads of Lerasium and Atium?  There's no telling what he's capable of.  That said, some people have implied that it's literally impossible for Hoid to commit violence, almost as if it's the other side of the coin to his immortality, which sounds interesting.

[Worldhopper he/him]

I like your theory. There was one line from the second Letter however that has always made me wonder if Hoid was rather one of those involved in the creation and or splintering of Adonalsium and it is this.

'He is what we made him to be, old friend.' - the letter in regards to Rayse.

This is from the second letter, I guess a reply to Hoids first and must be from whoever the old reptilian is. I get the feeling that parts of your theory are there and maybe some of whoever or whatever Hoid was, was changed at the shattering in some way along the lines your theory suggests. I'm hoping to go to BYU and actually read the full Liar of Partinel thesis. So hopefully I can get a better idea on who Hoid is, although I'm aware that a lots probably changed in Brandon's canon since then. But you never know.

Also, I really enjoy reading Long theories, especially concerning Hoid.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I'm hoping to go to BYU and actually read the full Liar of Partinel thesis. So hopefully I can get a better idea on who Hoid is, although I'm aware that a lots probably changed in Brandon's canon since then. But you never know.

 

Off-topic response:

Two notes: One, the BYU library has a copy of Dragonsteel, not Liar of Partinel.  (Liar was started after Mistborn I think, but was abandoned and he wrote Scribbler/Rithmatist instead.)  Two, I'm pretty sure Dragonsteel has a huge waiting list, so even if you can get in to the library to read stuff it may not be there.

[Worldhopper he/him]

Off-topic response:

Two notes: One, the BYU library has a copy of Dragonsteel, not Liar of Partinel.  (Liar was started after Mistborn I think, but was abandoned and he wrote Scribbler/Rithmatist instead.)  Two, I'm pretty sure Dragonsteel has a huge waiting list, so even if you can get in to the library to read stuff it may not be there.

Yeah that's what I've heard. Maybe I can find out who has it and track them down to let me read it. Although I feel this is likely to result in a restraining order instead.

[Lightning he/him]

Having read Brandon's thesis, let me recommend against it for anyone else.

 

Sure, there are some things in there that are not found in Brandon's other books.  However:

 

• There are things in there that are found in Brandon's other books, which have been changed.  (Such as the shattered plain, lightweaving, etc....)  In my opinion, almost nothing from that thesis will survive unchanged.
• Anything learned in it is non-canonical.  So, you would just be reading to see Brandon's very early mind in action.
• This is a very early work, and not well written at all.
• Sometimes it is like reading an inaccurate spoiler-board.  I personally hated the experience at those times.

I hope that is helpful.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Lightning

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

@Lightning

More or less the same phrasing BS uses to describe Dragonsteel whenever it comes up in Q&As, and why he doesn't want it easily available online.

 

The "inaccurate spoiler board" isn't something I've heard before, but it makes sense, and I like it when someone can distill a major point into a few well chosen words.

 

The fact that you can get a copy of White Sand by emailing him (or Peter?) but that has the same restriction as Dragonsteel (no discussing in an open forum or being made publically available online), makes me think that it is similar in nature, so I'll probably just hold out until the White Sand Graphic Novels come around.

 

In relation to my last post:

I finally found who it was on these forums that implied that violence is straight up impossible for Hoid to commit, it was someone who read the unpublished stuff, and he also asked some pointed questions about how Hoid's immortality works, which is why I thought the two things might be connected.  Again, given the innaccurate spoiler board nature of the unpublished stuff, this all might have changed.

[laxrulz777 he/him]

I like this theory. I like it A LOT. It would explain a lot about Hoid and it seems to really "fit" the tone of many of the conversations. One "problem" is with this Q&A

 

Q:  Is Hoid any of the Shards of Adonalsium?
A:  Good question.  He does not hold a shard.

 

Brandon rephrased and restated the question which is always a sign that someone is obfuscating. The question was "is he a shard" and the answer was "he does not hold a shard". Those are two VERY different things.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Brandon rephrased and restated the question which is always a sign that someone is obfuscating. The question was "is he a shard" and the answer was "he does not hold a shard". Those are two VERY different things.

 

Actually, they are not. At least the way that Brandon and the fandom regard the issue, they are identical. For example:

 

The being that serves as the antagonist of the Mistborn Era 1 series is called Ruin. That is it's name. But in reality Ruin is really just the Shard of Adonalsium, and the person actually holding the Shard is named Ati. Yet we still call the character Ruin. Same goes for Preservation (Leras), Endowment (unknown), Odium (Rayse), Honor (Tanavast), etc.

 

So when someone holds a Shard, they are the Shard. Tanavast is Honor, just as Ati is Ruin, and Sazed is Harmony. So when the questioner asked "Is Hoid any of the Shards of Adonalsium?" whether they meant it in such a way or not, they were really asking if Hoid has a Shard in his possession. Brandon answered the question flat out with no obfuscation.

[natc]

The person's identity also kind of blurs as the shard begins to mind-jack them to be honest. One could say Ruin is no longer the man Ati once was, and has been turned into the mind of the incarnation of destruction that is the Shard of Ruin. Ati was reportedly a really nice guy. Can't even imagine that anymore.