Cheese Ninja he/him Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Q: Is Hoid a Herald, or a Shardholder, or something else entirely? A: Hoid is something else entirely. Brandon's been pretty clear that Hoid isn't a Shard. Less clear about whether Hoid is a Sliver or not. Even if Hoid is a Sliver, there's more to him than just that. His level of immortality seems to be the highest tier of anyone we've seen in the series, since BS has said Hoid could heal from beheading or being cut with a Shardblade. (Including being beheaded with a Shardblade? That's less clear, but Hoid would probably be fine.) If Liar of Partinel was originally hundreds of years before Dragonsteel, he's had at least some form of immortality even before the Shattering. I'm honestly a bit surprised that Hoid's level of Cosmere awareness is far below Khriss's and on par with Nazh's though. I would think that since Hoid had been around since the Shattering and he is constantly travelling between the worlds that he would be the expert. That's even without considering his possible involvement in the Shattering itself. That might be a sign that he operates more by gut instinct than careful planning. He has a goal, but hasn't carefully mapped out the steps to achieve it, instead he tries to make the most out of lucky opportunities.
laxrulz777 he/him Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Actually, they are not. At least the way that Brandon and the fandom regard the issue, they are identical. For example: The being that serves as the antagonist of the Mistborn Era 1 series is called Ruin. That is it's name. But in reality Ruin is really just the Shard of Adonalsium, and the person actually holding the Shard is named Ati. Yet we still call the character Ruin. Same goes for Preservation (Leras), Endowment (unknown), Odium (Rayse), Honor (Tanavast), etc. So when someone holds a Shard, they are the Shard. Tanavast is Honor, just as Ati is Ruin, and Sazed is Harmony. So when the questioner asked "Is Hoid any of the Shards of Adonalsium?" whether they meant it in such a way or not, they were really asking if Hoid has a Shard in his possession. Brandon answered the question flat out with no obfuscation. Do you think this holds even in the context of shards NEEDING a holder and potentially developing sentience on their own without one? That could make Hoid (if he was a Shard) a distinctly separate thing with separate rules and a separate lexicon to decribe them. I'd love to hear the audio on this one and try to read Brandon's expression and delivery. It would probably tell a lot. I could definitely see the following being true. Hoid is the 17th Shard (bear with me hear). He's the leftover bit of Adonalsium formed after the Shattering. His personality is the personality of Adonalsium stripped of all the deific components... Conceivably he may not even have natural power... just a "personality" Shard. The "core" personality is it were. He sat as an unclaimed Shard for a long time (conceivably, he might even be the hiding Shard though I suspect not). Eventually, he developed sentience (in the same way that the Spren are developing sentience thanks to Honor's shattering... but, in this case, Hoid developed sentience as a single Shard). IF all that were true (and it's a huge IF I concede) then it would be consistent with the quote regarding Hoid not "holding" a Shard.
Cheese Ninja he/him Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Except that Hoid was a person before the Shattering. Liar of Partinel might not be canon, but he almost certainly still started out as relatively normal Yolen human. Q: Is Hoid human?A: Hoid was human a long time ago. Now... it's complicated. We would call him human, and so will pretty much everyone else, but he is not exactly that. Adonalsium developing sentience on its own is a worthy topic in its own right, and Roshtarfarian2.0's thread that I linked to earlier was about that, and Adonalsium being a created being as well. (I give his thread additional weight, since it got 22 upvotes but only 10 or so people replied to it, which means that a number of people liked what they read, but for some reason didn't comment. Possible reason? He got too close to the truth, and they'd be breaking the rules by replying.) Our main questions of note: Did Adonalsium exist from the very beginning, or was it created? (I'm fine with either, but more partial to the "created", it's probably the humanist in me.) Was it sentient? (WoG: Any large enough collection of Investiture will eventually develop sentience.) Did anyone ever hold the whole of Adonalsium? (I'm favoring Hoid, if there ever was an individual. If he's a Sliver of the Whole, it might explain some of his abilities.) Was it Shattered intentionally? (Almost certainly. We have both a plot to destroy it, which failed. And a weapon created by its opposition.) If so, by whom? (I'm partial to Hoid again, the current Shards, and Frost.) Edited March 10, 2015 by Cheese Ninja
Blaze1616 he/him Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 Do you think this holds even in the context of shards NEEDING a holder and potentially developing sentience on their own without one? That could make Hoid (if he was a Shard) a distinctly separate thing with separate rules and a separate lexicon to decribe them. I'd love to hear the audio on this one and try to read Brandon's expression and delivery. It would probably tell a lot. Yes, I do think it still holds. Given it's a convention supplied by Brandon, not by the fandom, I have no reason to doubt it. Moreover, the sentience would still "hold" the Shard in the manner you speak of, so Brandon's answer likely wouldn't change. I could definitely see the following being true. Hoid is the 17th Shard (bear with me hear). He's the leftover bit of Adonalsium formed after the Shattering. His personality is the personality of Adonalsium stripped of all the deific components... Conceivably he may not even have natural power... just a "personality" Shard. The "core" personality is it were. He sat as an unclaimed Shard for a long time (conceivably, he might even be the hiding Shard though I suspect not). Eventually, he developed sentience (in the same way that the Spren are developing sentience thanks to Honor's shattering... but, in this case, Hoid developed sentience as a single Shard). I highly doubt this because Brandon has been very insistent that there are only 16 Shards. Whenever asked, he tends to clarify by saying that the Seventeenth Shard is an organization, and not an actual Shard. I know I've read his responses saying such on more than one occaision, but there is only response on Theoryland that mildly hints to this.
CabbageHead he/him Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 I'm not sure I agree with the Hoid being a remnant of pre-Shattering Adonalsium, however he definitely seems to have an agenda of, if not reforming Adonalsium, at least making himself a "mini-Adonalsium". I think the Ym interlude could be interesting for you to add to your theory; Ym also collects stories, and tells the urchin that he makes shoes for in the interlude: "Beacuse," Ym said, "you and I are One." "One what?" "One being," Ym said. He set aside that shoe and got out another. "Long ago, there was only One. One knew everything, but had experienced nothing. And so, One became many--us, people. The One, who is both male and female, did so to experience all things." .. .. .. "You should accept no god. We are Iriali, and part of the Long Trail, of which this is the Fourth Land." .. .. .. "Iriali need no preaching, only experience. As each experience is different, it brings completeness. Eventually, all will be gathered back in--when the Seventh Land is attained--and we will once again become One."
Curious Anamaximder he/him Posted April 16, 2015 Posted April 16, 2015 I've always believed that Adonalsium was artificial, made to defeat the Fain, but I've never been able to find proof for it. So everything you say makes sense in my head, and I can see how you came to the conclusions. But the WoB about him not taking up a Shard. Why would he be offered a Shard in the first place if they knew he was the 'AI' from before? WHAT is the Fain?
Jo and the Bush all/any Posted April 16, 2015 Posted April 16, 2015 WHAT is the Fain? Have you read the Liar of Partinel sample chapters?
MoS03 Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 I'm not sure I agree with the Hoid being a remnant of pre-Shattering Adonalsium, however he definitely seems to have an agenda of, if not reforming Adonalsium, at least making himself a "mini-Adonalsium". I think the Ym interlude could be interesting for you to add to your theory; Ym also collects stories, and tells the urchin that he makes shoes for in the interlude: Oh. My. Goodness. I read that part focusing on Ym's interaction with the urchin, and why or how this might cheer the kid up. Paying closer attention, I can see how this actually applies to a few other things. This sounds suspiciously like what happened to Adonalsium, and perhaps, a few other shards as well. Not necessarily the reasoning behind the shattering, but the fact that it did. I've read several references to, and postulations of, the Iriali people having migrated to Roshar from other planets. The theory is that they're world hoppers? Or, so I seem to have inferred. So, would this be the fourth world they've come to? Or, perhaps the 2nd physical world, and they are counting the other 2 realms as well?
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