Anti-investiture: A Useful Term?

[Windrunner]

I've seen the term "anti-investiture" thrown around a lot lately and after a request from another member, Sirce Dawnwielder, I've decided to share my opinion. I'd also like to preface that this is not intended to be an attack on him for asking the question about anti-investiture or anything like that. The term itself was useful in the moment and I thank him for reporting the question, I simply believe that it is not a non-canonical term that should become commonly used. Also forgive me if I repeat myself or overstate a point. My theorycrafting skills are a tad rusty. xD

 

Let's start by examining the quote in question so that we can refer back to it later.
 

So each anti-investiture is like its world's investiture, but can't be effected by it. So aluminum can't be affected and destroyes Allomancy, ralkalest can't be Soulstamped, Shardblades are blunted by that one thing. Is the black filled sphere that Galivar gives to Szeth the anti-investiture to Stormlight?" When I asked this, he became much more tight-lipped and said that was an interesting theory and that I would learn more in book three.

 

I would  like to briefly note that from the quote, Brandon did not necessarily intrinsically understand what "anti-investiture" refers to, rather several examples were given and Brandon seems to have understood what they were saying. After that moment he made no comment about the veracity of the "anti-investiture" categorization and simply stated that we would see more about the black sphere in book three (Yay!) but otherwise neatly dodged the question, like he always does when pointedly asked about the black sphere. This is just another example of him being clever in not saying RAFO but not necessarily giving a useful/spoilery answer about the mysterious black sphere.

 

Anti-investiture as a Term:

I believe the term anti-investiture to be a tad nonsensical. In my knowledge of cosmere canon, the word Investiture is used in two specific contexts. Firstly, it can be used to describe a source or type of spiritual energy. Breath is Investiture, Stormlight is Investiture, the Dor is Investiture. The other context is has been used is to refer to a magic system as a "manifestation of Investiture". Allomancy is a manifestation of Investiture, so is Surgebinding, ChayShan, and so on. So one usage appears to refer to a spiritual energy, and the other refers to a method by which the energy is accessed or utilized. " (Invest is also used as a verb to refer to the act of transferring Investiture to a person or object, but that's not really important here.)

 

"Anti-investiture" would at first glance not even really make sense. I'm not physicist, so perhaps I am wrong, but I see an equivalent real world term being "anti-energy" which doesn't make any sense either. I believe this in and of itself is confusing.The alternate interpretation which seems to be the one being used is a sort of inverse of Investiture, something that counteracts or cancels it. Assuming that's the case, let’s look at the examples provided. I will also add a few other examples that would apparently seem like they should be included if we accept anti-investiture as a valid categorization.

 

Anti-investiture as a Classification:
The first example we see is aluminum. Now aluminum actually has two properties that at a first glance seem very similar. The first is activated when it is burned. All metals in the Allomancer's stomach, including aluminum can no longer be accessed Allomantically. That power is due to Investiture, it is powered by the energy of Preservation shaped by the molecular structure of the metal. This is not some power intrinsic to aluminum, chromium does a very similar thing externally. If that destructive quality makes aluminum an "anti-investiture,"  then chromium should be considered one as well. Still the fact that both are powered by Investiture, is at the least a confusing dichotomy.

The other use for aluminum seems to be a material one. It interrupts various Allomantic and Feruchemical powers, and if other quotes are to be believed, has other effects in different magic systems. Yet this is not really some sort of "Anti-investiture"  or even regular vanilla Investiture, which is a source of spiritual energy. If anything it has some sort of innate disruptive property. Parallels here can clearly be drawn with ralkalest (as mentioned in the quote) or silver. The fact remains that there does not appear to be any sort of inverse energy or "anti-investiture" involved. They're weird and have funny effects, but there is no evidence that this is due to some external power source that disrupts investiture.

The next example mentioned is the guard on the Shardblades. The nature of these is not entirely clear but the way I see it there are two probable explanations. One is that they are made out of some material akin to ralkalest or aluminum that has inherent ability to cause Invested things to act funny. I tend to think that one is false, but it matters not. If it's a material property, my same arguments from above apply The other option is that they are more like the half-shard fabrials and have been designed to dull the Blade. If so, like these half-shards, and Shardplate itself they would be powered by Stormlight, which again is Investiture not some sort of anti-investiture. (However there is no sign of a power source for these guards either, so I am stumped as to what their true nature is and it is possible that neither of these explanations are valid.) Either way neither of these seem to fit with the description of anti-investiture as I understand it.

That brings us to the black sphere. This devolves into speculation a bit at this point since its nature is unconfirmed, so you may not agree with me. At the very least we can say that we know too little to properly comprehend the black sphere. My understanding of it, based on small hints we've recieved and my own reading of the text is that it is some spiritual energy akin to Stormlight, but not of Honor/Cultivation/wherever Stormlight comes from. My suspicion is that it is from Odium, the most obvious interpretation. That would make it not of some nebulous other being or power, but simply another of the Shards of Adonalsium, another type of Investiture. Just like Breath is not Stormlight, but still comes from Adonalsium. Again, it makes little sense to call this anti-investiture.

The second major problem I have with the term is that I don't believe that the energies and materials listed actually deserve to be listed in the same category at all. We've come full circle back to the fact that anti-investiture is not a clear term. Some of them, including burning aluminum, and potentially the black sphere have powers that counteract or block magic the ability to do magic. If this is the measure of anti-investiture, then we must include burning chromium, the Dakhor ability to counteract Aons as anti-investiture. The others seem to have some material property that defies Investiture, such as ralkalest, the presence of aluminum, and silver. These two things are not the same at all.

 

The Shardblade guard adds more problems. Should anything that blocks any Invested object or power related to Investiture be considered anti-investiture? Is Shardplate an anti-investiture? Should half-shards be counted? Nightblood? Burning copper to protect your emotions? There is no real distinction between these examples and that guard. So right now, we have both objects and magical abilities in this odd "anti-investiture" category. Some are directly powered by Investiture and others don't seem to have a power source.

 

If I was forced to, I would divide this group in half. The specific materials like aluminum, silver, and ralkalest, could potentially be grouped together, although I still think "anti-invesiture" is not terribly descriptive. Investiture-cancelling materials (wordy but more accurate) would be my personal preference. The powers like burning aluminum, chromium or the dark sphere (if that's what it actually does) and those type really don't need a term. They're just times when one Investiture interferes with another. After all, dismissing an Aon or lashing could under that definition technically be an "anti-investiture" under our broad definition. You can call them "anti-investiture" if you really want to, but they're just different Investitures; it's misleading. I've already seen speculation about this relating to some sort of "Anti-Adonalsium" which is clearly not the case. Anti-investiture has the opportunity to be mistakenly interpreted a multitude of ways.

 

Conclusion/Too Long Didn't Read:

Unspecific non-canonical terms like "anti-invesititure" do us no favors. Firstly, the term itself does not makes sense based on our current understanding of Investiture's definition. The things that "anti-investiture" refers to fall simply into three categories:

• Investiture cancelling materials - Aluminum, ralkalest, and silver.
• Abilities from Investitures that interfere with other Investitures - burning aluminum, chromium, copper, Dakhor disruption
• Half-shards/Shardplate/etc - Things specifically designed using one Investiture to counteract other Investitures

You can ignore my feelings that anti-investiture as a term makes no sense, if you want. The fact remains that these do not belong in a category together. They produce similar results, but are unrelated in cause.

 

So that's my viewpoint on the subject? What does everyone else think? I'm interested to hear other people's arguments for or against this?

[Moogle]

I agree for the most part with your view here. I don't agree with the term "Investiture canceling", though. While we don't know the mechanics exactly, aluminum/ralkalest don't do anything to Investiture, they just resist it themselves. And even then, Feruchemists can still store attributes in aluminum (identity to be precise), and aluminum spikes can steal soul-bits (Investiture). They're not at all anti-Investiture or Investiture-canceling. "Investiture-resistant" materials is the term I'd coin, but Feruchemy/Hemalurgy still clashes with that word because aluminum has no problems playing nice with Investiture in their cases. We know by WoB that aluminum has "funky" effects with the magic systems, not that it resists them all.

 

I've had a theory kicking around over it being because they've got something funky going on in the Spiritual related to their identity being super strong and unalterable. To Push on a metal, you need a connection (which is what the Spiritual deals with) in the form of a blue line. Similarly, wounds refuse to heal around aluminum (body can't push it out), and you can't form a connection from you to someone to Soothe them if they're wearing an aluminum hat. If the aluminum has an identity that just plain refuses to change, this would fit with the observed behavior. It would also fit in with the theory on it being ralkalest: the identity is too strong and resists Forging.

 

This 'strong identity' theory would also fit in with how aluminum has effects vaguely related to identity in both Feruchemy and Allomancy (purges external Investiture, 'purifying' your identity). I wonder if it steals your personality in Hemalurgy, along with its effects of stealing Enhancement metals?

 

Silver seems to be in a different category entirely based on how it temporarily resists shades. It is destroyed itself in the doing of that. Aluminum seems to not be affected by Allomancy full stop. I'm not sure if that's meaningful. Shardplate blocks Shardblades, but we wouldn't call Shardplate anti-Investiture.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616]

I concur that the term "anti-investiture" should not be used. As you pointed out Windy, it seems to have three conflicting definitions right now, and we don't need to add confusion to a universe that some would say is already confusing enough. Particularly when you add in the fact that heavily invested objects also resist investiture, yet they aren't "anti" investiture because they've already recieved some.

 

Like Moogle, though, I do not like the term "investiture cancelling," but prefer "investiture resistant." I suppose "investiture selective" could also be applied, given how aluminum does work with Feruchemy and Hemalurgy like Moogle points out.

[Kurkistan]

@Moogle

 

An interesting thought concerning how aluminum might work.

[Chaos]

I agree with Windy's assessment, and like the others, I am not a fan of the Investiture-canceling term. That's fine; that wasn't relevant to your original point Windy. I think it's hard to come up with a name when we don't know the mechanism on why this works the way it does.

I've had a theory kicking around over it being because they've got something funky going on in the Spiritual related to their identity being super strong and unalterable. To Push on a metal, you need a connection (which is what the Spiritual deals with) in the form of a blue line. Similarly, wounds refuse to heal around aluminum (body can't push it out), and you can't form a connection from you to someone to Soothe them if they're wearing an aluminum hat. If the aluminum has an identity that just plain refuses to change, this would fit with the observed behavior. It would also fit in with the theory on it being ralkalest: the identity is too strong and resists Forging.

That... that is a brilliant. It's simple and elegant. So much so that I'd be astonished if that isn't close to the mark on how it works. Have a billion upvotes.

[VladJunior]

What class would Nalan's stormlight sapping stuff fall under?

Edited February 10, 2015 by VladJunior

[Curiosity]

What class would Nalan's stormlight sapping stuff fall under?

 

Good question. I was wondering about that on my re-read. 

It appears to relocate the Investiture, siphoning it off. It could be compared to Hemalurgy in that it steals Investiture, but it doesn't appear to have the same Spiritual implications (primarily because the Stormlight is probably not bound to the individual like the soul is). Maybe it's like a mechanized Breath stealer, but again, the Investiture it's affecting doesn't have strong bonds to its bearer. 

 

Yeah, I would put it in a class of its own. 

[Moogle]

I think it might be able to be put in the same category as Nightblood. Not sure on what the mechanics are for it stealing Stormlight.

[Dunkum]

it might be related to chromium/aluminum too, from what I recall of Lift's interlude

 

 

Agree on the anti-investiture point, though I'd note that the way silver works in shadows for silence seems to come closest to how I would imagine something with that name should; i.e. it cancels out the investiture (assuming thats what the shades are), but loses its own power in the process.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Dunkum

[Sirce Luckwielder]

This is awesome. I came to the 17th Shard to talk about theories and discussions with everything else second. Thank you Windrunner for this discussion. Your essay was well written and showed your intent with clarity and supported it with evidence. I will attempt to do the same and I share your intent that this is to be a constructive argument rather than a verbose attack on your character.

 

Anti-Investiture As a Term

 

Firstly, I would like to portray anti-investiture as I termed it. Anti-investiture disrupts or stops the flow of an Invested from using investiture to unlock a Shard's power. It is something that is of similar substance, but counteracts and nullifies investiture. Anti-investiture is of the same medium as its investiture counterpart, but cancels it in some way.

 

I see investiture as the manifestation of a Shards power. Investment is the process by which an Invested gain said power. Investiture is a lock and key relationship. Investment is the key and the boundaries between the Realms are the locks. When a being is Invested, they can then transcend the boundaries of the Physical Realm and access a Shard's Power. If the boundaries between Realms are a safe, then a Shard's power is the bullion within and the manifestation of Investiture is the code to unlock that safe. Any other code will not open the safe, only the preordained set of digits. 

 

Elantris spoiler

This is painfully evident in the case of Dilaf's wife. Aons are used on Sel to access Devotion or Dominion's power. When the Aon is drawn wrong, even just a small line misplaced, the power is changed.

 

It is the same way with impure alloys and metals on Skadrial. The Shard's place their power into specific system and any taints to it result in the power being warped. This is like Agonists. Agonists are molecules that are similar enough to a neurotransmitter, such as dopamine or serotonin, that it can mimic its effects when it goes into the neurotransmitter's receiver. Because they can mimic the effect, they cause a similar response, but it is warped as they are not the pure neurotransmitter. In the same way, an impure alloy can still cause an effect as long as it is not too much different. In this way, Investiture must be in a pure form to obtain the highest utilization of the Shard's power.

 

So, onto the "anti-" in anti-investiture:

 

Looking at the definition of "anti-" from the British Dictionary.

 

anti-

prefix 
 

1.

against; opposing

2.

opposite to

3.

rival; false

4.

counteracting, inhibiting, or neutralizing

5.

designating the antiparticle of the particle specified

  

 

Going back to my definition of anti-investiture

Anti-investiture disrupts or stops the flow of an Invested from using investiture to unlock a Shard's power. It is something that is of similar substance, but counteracts and nullifies investiture. Anti-investiture is of the same medium as its investiture counterpart, but cancels it in some way.

Each of these definitions of "anti-" work for this. Anti-investiture is the opposite of investiture, it is its rival, it counteracts, inhibits, and neutralizes it. Most importantly, look at the fifth definition. It is the "antiparticle of the particle specified."

 

The British Dictionary definition of "antiparticle."

 noun 

1.

any of a group of elementary particles that have the same mass and spin as their corresponding particle but have opposite values for all other nonzero quantum numbers. When a particle collides with its antiparticle, mutual annihilation occurs.  

 

Systems in Regards to Anti-Investiture

 

Anti-investiture is of the same system as normal investiture. Take aluminum as an example. The investiture on Skadrial is the 16 Allomantic metals, not counting the god metals. One of these metals, aluminum, destroys the others when burned, and disrupts them when in physical form, as bullets or lining hats. Antiparticles are of "the same mass and spin as their corresponding particles," they are of the same system. "But have opposite values," the opposite of investiture. "When a particle collides with an antiparticle, mutual annihilation occurs," as you noticed before, when an Allomancer burns aluminum both the aluminum and the other metals in the system are destroyed.

 

Now looking at both pieces of the term anti-investiture, I believe that we can all agree that it fits the purpose intended. It nullifies and is the opposite counterpart of investiture.

 

The item used to blunt Shardblades cannot be a half-blade fabrial, as it was around before half-Shards, them being discovered only a short time before the book takes place. Since Shardblades and the items that blunt them have been around far longer than that, this is no mere fabrial. I think Zahel said that they came with the Shardblades and that he doesn't know who made them or what they are. I have only read Words of Radiance once so I can't remember too clearly if that is the case or not. 

 

When referring to Shardblades and the material that blunts it you said that you believe that Shardblades function on Stormlight. (Words of Radiance spoiler) 

 While it is true that modern Shardblades that do not function off of live spren use a fabrial on the hilt to make them summonable, these were placed on after the Shardblades after the Knights Radient abandoned their oaths and killed their spren. The Stormlight that is used on a Blade is therefore not an original piece of them. That being said, Shardblades are not on the same Investiture-based system as fabrials are, but some form of spren-based system. 

By this, I can confidently say that this blunting material is something else.  If a Shardblade is a metal, its anti-investiture would also be a metal, the same system.  From what we can see of this blunting material, it is indeed a metal that is pliable enough to form an effective guard.  It also nullifies the supernatural power of the Blade.

 

With ralkalest, we see a material that cannot be bound to a Soulstamp and therefore cannot be changed. Forging comes from the symbols and patterns drawn on the material, but it is still just a rock unless it is bound to something.  Even the Bloodsealing required a new bonding each day or it failed to work.  Since this disrupts the Shard’s power from being used on it and is also a rock, the same material as Soulstone, which is what is used the most in Forgery.  Forgery still works when using other materials, but it is not as easy unless carved into Soulstone.  Looking above at my talk about impure metals being able to still be used, just less effectively, this can be seen to fit in that mold.

 

I have already used aluminum for Allomancy as my example in proving anti-investiture so I will not readdress it.  For Feruchemy however, it stores identity.  Since all of the humans on Skadrial have a piece of Preservation inside of them, I am assuming that it stores or nullifies that.  If this piece of Preservation within people is what gives the Skadrial humans their identity, than this does make sense again.

 

 

Now to your thoughts on the black sphere.  I have heard that the black sphere is speculated to be the cell or form or a beacon to one of the Unmade. I theorized that it was the anti-investiture to Stormlight.  The problem with Roshar is that we don’t know enough about how its magic systems operate. We don’t really know what the Heralds, the Unmade, and any of the high beings of Roshar have in common other than that they are very powerful.  We know that the Heralds are linked to Surgebinding and I believe that the speculation is that the Unmade are linked to Voidbinding. The highstorms are what fuel Surgebinding, and the Everstorm clashes and is an opposite to the highstorm.  It is of the same medium and may or may not cancel it out.  If the Unmade are linked to the black sphere and the Everstorm, and the Everstorm is the opposite of a highstorm, I believe that what is in the black sphere to be the opposite of Stormlight. The thing with all of this is that we just don’t know.  We need more books and more Words of Brandon to be able to figure this one out.

 

Your second problem is that that things like Chromium and the Dakhor ability to counteract Aons don’t fit in with the term of anti-investiture.  The problem with assessing both of these things is that we do not have a lot to go on.  Chromium has never been talked about in anything other than the Ars Arcanum.  It has the same Allomantic effect as aluminum, but we don’t know if it has the same effect as aluminum when in physical form, such as in bullets.  Until we have more to go on, I don’t think that we can use this as a valid point for either of our cases.  The same goes for the Dakhor ability, we know that it does something, we just don’t know how.

 

Refuting Silver as an Anti-Investiture

 

Another thing that you do is tie silver in with anti-investiture.  It has no metallurgic power whatsoever, that is true, but it never was said that it stopped investiture.  If it could, why wouldn’t people be using silver rather than aluminum in Alloy of Law? Silver has been around since before the end of the first Mistborn trilogy, so it would be much easier to mine and produce it than aluminum.  Based on these points, it qualifies neither of the qualifications of anti-investiture.

 

Conclusion

 

You reference something as “Anti-Adonalsium” and say this “is clearly not the case.” I agree in a way, these are integrated into the systems of Investiture, so it is likely to be of Adonalsium. It could also be something that is not Adonalsium, it could be this “Anti-Adonalsium” as you term it.  Again, we don’t know.  We can speculate, but we don’t have the facts or the data until Brandon allows us to know about them.

 

In recapitulation I again stress that the term anti-investiture is valid and should be used until it has been disproved.  With the qualifications set in place, it fits every magic system that we have enough facts to prove or disprove it being used.  If there are any other things that can support or nullify my claim, I am happy to hear them.

[Shaggai]

I agree for the most part with your view here. I don't agree with the term "Investiture canceling", though. While we don't know the mechanics exactly, aluminum/ralkalest don't do anything to Investiture, they just resist it themselves. And even then, Feruchemists can still store attributes in aluminum (identity to be precise), and aluminum spikes can steal soul-bits (Investiture). They're not at all anti-Investiture or Investiture-canceling. "Investiture-resistant" materials is the term I'd coin, but Feruchemy/Hemalurgy still clashes with that word because aluminum has no problems playing nice with Investiture in their cases. We know by WoB that aluminum has "funky" effects with the magic systems, not that it resists them all.

 

I've had a theory kicking around over it being because they've got something funky going on in the Spiritual related to their identity being super strong and unalterable. To Push on a metal, you need a connection (which is what the Spiritual deals with) in the form of a blue line. Similarly, wounds refuse to heal around aluminum (body can't push it out), and you can't form a connection from you to someone to Soothe them if they're wearing an aluminum hat. If the aluminum has an identity that just plain refuses to change, this would fit with the observed behavior. It would also fit in with the theory on it being ralkalest: the identity is too strong and resists Forging.

 

This 'strong identity' theory would also fit in with how aluminum has effects vaguely related to identity in both Feruchemy and Allomancy (purges external Investiture, 'purifying' your identity). I wonder if it steals your personality in Hemalurgy, along with its effects of stealing Enhancement metals?

 

Silver seems to be in a different category entirely based on how it temporarily resists shades. It is destroyed itself in the doing of that. Aluminum seems to not be affected by Allomancy full stop. I'm not sure if that's meaningful. Shardplate blocks Shardblades, but we wouldn't call Shardplate anti-Investiture.

I wonder why it's aluminum, though. Perhaps it's just random, but I wonder if there's a deeper Cosmere principle here.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

It may be a balance to the physical properties of aluminum.

It reacts with everything, Quite literally. It even reacts with noble gases and other "Inert" substances, Its possible that in the cosmer this reactiveness on the physical plane create some kind of cognitive or spiritual "Stiffness" that makes it inflexible to other things in those realms.

[Shaggai]

It may be a balance to the physical properties of aluminum.

It reacts with everything, Quite literally. It even reacts with noble gases and other "Inert" substances, Its possible that in the cosmer this reactiveness on the physical plane create some kind of cognitive or spiritual "Stiffness" that makes it inflexible to other things in those realms.

There are other elements that are more reactive, though. Why should aluminum be special?

[Lord Tavash Shar]

 

It may be a balance to the physical properties of aluminum.

It reacts with everything, Quite literally. It even reacts with noble gases and other "Inert" substances, Its possible that in the cosmer this reactiveness on the physical plane create some kind of cognitive or spiritual "Stiffness" that makes it inflexible to other things in those realms.

There are other elements that are more reactive, though. Why should aluminum be special?

 

 

While aluminum is reactive to everything its also easy (with the right technology) to break that bond. Aluminum bonds are very weak and yet crazy strong, Reactive to everything and yet very good at remaining pure after its been purified.

I would not be surprised if the cognitive or spiritual aspect of that created a special kind of "strength" in those realms that made it so that when its use for or against magical effects it was very hard to manipulate.

[Moogle]

It may be a balance to the physical properties of aluminum.

It reacts with everything, Quite literally. It even reacts with noble gases and other "Inert" substances, Its possible that in the cosmer this reactiveness on the physical plane create some kind of cognitive or spiritual "Stiffness" that makes it inflexible to other things in those realms.

There are other elements that are more reactive, though. Why should aluminum be special?

 

Perhaps these other elements have similar properties to aluminum, too? I don't think we've seen a Mistborn try Pushing on a block of sodium.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

 

It may be a balance to the physical properties of aluminum.

It reacts with everything, Quite literally. It even reacts with noble gases and other "Inert" substances, Its possible that in the cosmer this reactiveness on the physical plane create some kind of cognitive or spiritual "Stiffness" that makes it inflexible to other things in those realms.

There are other elements that are more reactive, though. Why should aluminum be special?

 

Perhaps these other elements have similar properties to aluminum, too? I don't think we've seen a Mistborn try Pushing on a block of sodium.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of fluorine. I suppose that's not a metal, though, so maybe it wouldn't count.

[Windrunner]

This is awesome. I came to the 17th Shard to talk about theories and discussions with everything else second. Thank you Windrunner for this discussion. Your essay was well written and showed your intent with clarity and supported it with evidence. I will attempt to do the same and I share your intent that this is to be a constructive argument rather than a verbose attack on your character.

I'm glad you like the site! We really try to provide a fun place for discussion. Also just as an aside, you do not have to use spoiler tags here, since we're in the Cosmere Theories Board, all cosmere works are fair game.

 

Anti-Investiture As a Term

Firstly, I would like to portray anti-investiture as I termed it. Anti-investiture disrupts or stops the flow of an Invested from using investiture to unlock a Shard's power. It is something that is of similar substance, but counteracts and nullifies investiture. Anti-investiture is of the same medium as its investiture counterpart, but cancels it in some way.

I see investiture as the manifestation of a Shards power. Investment is the process by which an Invested gain said power. Investiture is a lock and key relationship. Investment is the key and the boundaries between the Realms are the locks. When a being is Invested, they can then transcend the boundaries of the Physical Realm and access a Shard's Power. If the boundaries between Realms are a safe, then a Shard's power is the bullion within and the manifestation of Investiture is the code to unlock that safe. Any other code will not open the safe, only the preordained set of digits.

I'm glad to see your definition of anti-investiture, as I had not found a specific definition for the term anywhere on the boards (another problem I had with it being commonly used is the lack of a clear common meaning) My apologies if I missed it, but I do think that says something in and of itself. I'm no newbie, I keep up to date with most all the non-RP boards on this site, and yet I still wasn't quite sure what exactly this word was supposed to mean. Members that are less active or new would have an even tougher time figure out precisely what is meant.

 

Now I want to point out what appear to me to be flaws with that definition. What precisely do you mean by "an Invested"? Someone who uses one of the magic systems, like an Allomancer or a Surgebinder? Anything that has Invesiture related to it, such as a Splinter like a Divine Breath or a Shardblade?

 

I think I provided a pretty solid definition of Investiture based on what's actually in the books. I can pull specific quotes if I need to make it more ironclad. I'm not at all certain what you mean by investment. Do you mean times such as when Kaladin invests say a rock when he's lashing it? But the next bit about Investment being a key kind of loses me. If you're already Invested there's no need to transcend the borders of the Realms, you have spiritual energy already. Are you talking more about Elantrians when they draw the Aons to create external places to channel Investiture through such as the Aons, rather than through their own body like say a Mistborn?

 

I think I've found the root of our disagreement. The way I view it there are two options. Your anti-Investiture is derived from some non-Adonalsium source or it is derived from Adonalsium. As I mentioned before, there is no evidence for an Anti-Adonalsium apart from a few cryptic comments about an opposing force, and there are other problems as well, which I shall describe later.

 

If it is derived from Adonalsium, there is no reason to make some distinction between Investiture and anti-investiture. For instance, each person has a small amount of Innate Investiture within themselves. This Investiture stops interferes with Allomancy, preventing a person from Pushing and Pulling metals within a person (for the most part). This would seem to fit within your definition for anti-Investiture, but there's need to invoke a second category. The powers are even derived from the same place. The majority of the Investiture inside a Scadrian is of Preservation, the source of the Investiture for Allomancy. There's no distinction necessary.

 

I'm intentionally leaving out a bit about the definition of anti- as I don't think us quibbling about what precisely our made-up words should mean adds much to this conversation. I maintain that the word itself is not easily intuited by simply looking at it.

 

Systems in Regards to Anti-Investiture

Anti-investiture is of the same system as normal investiture. Take aluminum as an example. The investiture on Skadrial is the 16 Allomantic metals, not counting the god metals. One of these metals, aluminum, destroys the others when burned, and disrupts them when in physical form, as bullets or lining hats. Antiparticles are of "the same mass and spin as their corresponding particles," they are of the same system. "But have opposite values," the opposite of investiture. "When a particle collides with an antiparticle, mutual annihilation occurs," as you noticed before, when an Allomancer burns aluminum both the aluminum and the other metals in the system are destroyed.

Now looking at both pieces of the term anti-investiture, I believe that we can all agree that it fits the purpose intended. It nullifies and is the opposite counterpart of investiture.

 I do think that I made the point in my first post that that while they may appear similar, when you burn aluminum you do something different than what the presence of aluminum does. Aluminum acts weirdly in all the systems but the act of burning it is part of Allomancy, so I do not believe the two properties to be related. In addition to that, the effect of an Allomancer burning aluminum, as per the Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum, is "instantly [metabolizing] all of his or her metals without giving any other effect". So there is not even a nullification effect going on here, as far as the books give evidence. They are metabolized, not counteracted or blocked in anyway shape or form.

 

The item used to blunt Shardblades cannot be a half-blade fabrial, as it was around before half-Shards, them being discovered only a short time before the book takes place. Since Shardblades and the items that blunt them have been around far longer than that, this is no mere fabrial. I think Zahel said that they came with the Shardblades and that he doesn't know who made them or what they are. I have only read Words of Radiance once so I can't remember too clearly if that is the case or not.

I did not mean that it is a half-shard, I meant that it is like one. Just like how ancient Soulcasters are like modern fabrials but also different in ways we don't fully understand.

 

When referring to Shardblades and the material that blunts it you said that you believe that Shardblades function on Stormlight. (Words of Radiance spoiler) 

 While it is true that modern Shardblades that do not function off of live spren use a fabrial on the hilt to make them summonable, these were placed on after the Shardblades after the Knights Radient abandoned their oaths and killed their spren. The Stormlight that is used on a Blade is therefore not an original piece of them. That being said, Shardblades are not on the same Investiture-based system as fabrials are, but some form of spren-based system. 

By this, I can confidently say that this blunting material is something else.  If a Shardblade is a metal, its anti-investiture would also be a metal, the same system.  From what we can see of this blunting material, it is indeed a metal that is pliable enough to form an effective guard.  It also nullifies the supernatural power of the Blade.

The emphasis here is mine. As far as I can see, I made no such claim in my argument, and if I did or I implied it somewhere, I apologize. I do not, and never have believed that Stormlight powers Shardblades. They are Splinters. They don't need Stormlight, they have their own inherent energy to them. I think trying to separate Shardblades and Surgebinding makes absolutely no sense. The spren grant the ability to use Stormlight and are the Shardblades. Also, "metal" really isn't a magic system. As you've so astutely put it, the Blades are spren. Following that logic, the guards would have to be spren based as well. The guard also fails to nullify the power of the Blade entirely at least, as they remain super light. It wouldn't even be a perfect cancellation. Also you say that an anti-investiture must be of the same type as the thing it is cancelling. Would not the guard have to be spren-based as well? It's not as if a Shardblade is metal that has been Invested, it is something else entirely.

 

 

With ralkalest, we see a material that cannot be bound to a Soulstamp and therefore cannot be changed. Forging comes from the symbols and patterns drawn on the material, but it is still just a rock unless it is bound to something.  Even the Bloodsealing required a new bonding each day or it failed to work.  Since this disrupts the Shard’s power from being used on it and is also a rock, the same material as Soulstone, which is what is used the most in Forgery.  Forgery still works when using other materials, but it is not as easy unless carved into Soulstone.  Looking above at my talk about impure metals being able to still be used, just less effectively, this can be seen to fit in that mold.

 

I have already used aluminum for Allomancy as my example in proving anti-investiture so I will not readdress it.  For Feruchemy however, it stores identity.  Since all of the humans on Skadrial have a piece of Preservation inside of them, I am assuming that it stores or nullifies that.  If this piece of Preservation within people is what gives the Skadrial humans their identity, than this does make sense again.

 I'd like to add that ralkalest is a metal, not a rock like Soulstone. However, you state that Soulstone creates a stamp that works better because it is Soulstone, just like a pure alloy burns better because it is pure. This is not supported by my reading of the text. Soulstone is easily carved, Soulstone can be carved to have clean edges, Soulstone can be made durable. All of these properties are useful in making a durable functioning stamp. It's not better because of some spiritual thing, it's better for all the same reasons that making a Soulstamp out of talc would be a terrible idea. Shai even admits at one point that crystal makes better stamps but it's annoying to carve so she prefers Soulstone. It's just got useful physical properties, it doesn't have something inherent in it for better stamps.

 

Regardless of this, the seals are the basis of Forgery, not the stamps. To say otherwise would be like saying that your finger or the stick you use to draw an Aon is the most important part of AonDor. Your anti-investiture should be a symbol or something that cancels out the stamp, not a metal, so this does not fit your definition of anti-investiture.

 

 

Now to your thoughts on the black sphere.  I have heard that the black sphere is speculated to be the cell or form or a beacon to one of the Unmade. I theorized that it was the anti-investiture to Stormlight.  The problem with Roshar is that we don’t know enough about how its magic systems operate. We don’t really know what the Heralds, the Unmade, and any of the high beings of Roshar have in common other than that they are very powerful.  We know that the Heralds are linked to Surgebinding and I believe that the speculation is that the Unmade are linked to Voidbinding. The highstorms are what fuel Surgebinding, and the Everstorm clashes and is an opposite to the highstorm.  It is of the same medium and may or may not cancel it out.  If the Unmade are linked to the black sphere and the Everstorm, and the Everstorm is the opposite of a highstorm, I believe that what is in the black sphere to be the opposite of Stormlight. The thing with all of this is that we just don’t know.  We need more books and more Words of Brandon to be able to figure this one out.

I agree, lets leave the black sphere out entirely. No point in arguing over something we literally know nothing about.

 

Your second problem is that that things like Chromium and the Dakhor ability to counteract Aons don’t fit in with the term of anti-investiture.  The problem with assessing both of these things is that we do not have a lot to go on.  Chromium has never been talked about in anything other than the Ars Arcanum.  It has the same Allomantic effect as aluminum, but we don’t know if it has the same effect as aluminum when in physical form, such as in bullets.  Until we have more to go on, I don’t think that we can use this as a valid point for either of our cases.  The same goes for the Dakhor ability, we know that it does something, we just don’t know how.

As I mentioned above, I do truly think that Aluminum's Allomantic effect and its physical effect stem from two entirely different things. They don't do the same thing. Metabolizing metals in Allomancy is not the same thing as nullifying a variety of other magics.

 

Refuting Silver as an Anti-Investiture

 

Another thing that you do is tie silver in with anti-investiture.  It has no metallurgic power whatsoever, that is true, but it never was said that it stopped investiture.  If it could, why wouldn’t people be using silver rather than aluminum in Alloy of Law? Silver has been around since before the end of the first Mistborn trilogy, so it would be much easier to mine and produce it than aluminum.  Based on these points, it qualifies neither of the qualifications of anti-investiture.

I think you mistake me. Silver has no properties on Scadrial where it nullifies nothing. However on Threnody, from Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell, it has the ability to damage and kill shades, the natural Investiture of that world. That's cancellation as far as I can see, but it is admittedly not of the same type, which would disqualify it according to the definition you supplied early on.

 

Conclusion

 

You reference something as “Anti-Adonalsium” and say this “is clearly not the case.” I agree in a way, these are integrated into the systems of Investiture, so it is likely to be of Adonalsium. It could also be something that is not Adonalsium, it could be this “Anti-Adonalsium” as you term it.  Again, we don’t know.  We can speculate, but we don’t have the facts or the data until Brandon allows us to know about them.

I think that this is a flawed reasoning. We can say that it hasn't been definitively stated to be true. However without any real evidence otherwise, there's no reason to suspect that it should be something different. Maybe each power from every individual metal in Allomancy comes from a different source. That's never been stated as false, so we technically don't know the truth of the matter. However, there's never been any evidence to point to this, so there's no reason to suspect it to be true. Also I'll just throw this out here.

 

 

SWEETNESS

Since the evil on Threnody isn't a Shard, can you tell us anything about its actual nature? Is it an actual being, and is it related to Adonalsium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Everything is related to Adonalsium in the Cosmere, most of the magic you're seeing is a just a natural outgrowth of Cosmere related magic and cognitive shadows. The Evil is similarly related.

Everything is related to Adonalsium in the cosmere. I consider this fairly damning evidence against an Anti-Adonalsium.

 

In recapitulation I again stress that the term anti-investiture is valid and should be used until it has been disproved.  With the qualifications set in place, it fits every magic system that we have enough facts to prove or disprove it being used.  If there are any other things that can support or nullify my claim, I am happy to hear them.

So in conclusion, the only things you would call anti-investiture are ralkalest, aluminum, and the guard on the Shardblade? I think I've offered up fairly good evidence that Forgery/ralkalest shouldn't count as "anti-investitures" based on your definition. I've delved quite deeply into the issue of aluminum and shown evidence that it cancels nothing, it simply metabolizes metals instantaneously as its Allomantic power. The fact that it does this and happens to have a resistance to other Investitures is simply a coincidence. Whereas copper, if anything is closer to what you're trying to get at, as it actually neutralizes emotional Allomancy at the very least. In the case of the guard, I honestly think we have too little evidence about it as well to truly discuss it, but as per your definition it really should be spren based, which again we really have too little evidence to prove or disprove.

 

If I may be perfectly honest, to me this definition doesn't feel like it organically contains all these items within it. I just really don't think they belong together and don't seem at all alike except in a few coincidental ways. It's just Investiture messing with other Investiture. No new terms or Anti-Adonalsium necessary.

[IAmTheBeard]

Hello, just popping in!

 

I think this discussion is missing a very important point. Brandon has frequently talked about the fact that Investiture interferes with other Investitures, whether of the same system or not.

• The reason Allomancers can't pull or push on metal in someone's body (easily) is because their innate Investiture interferes. 
• The reason that Shardblades are blocked by everything from other Shardblades to Shardplate to Nightblood (and probably Half-Shards) is because they are both Invested objects, and thus can't just use their powers directly against one another.
• It is more difficult to Lash someone in Shardplate, again because its Investiture interferes.
• Allomantic copper is a form of Investiture that specifically interferes with specific other forms of Investiture
• Allomantic aluminum and Allomantic chromium fit that mold, as well. As do Allomantic duralumin and Allomantic nicrosil, when you think about it. There's nothing special about the burning of aluminum. It's just an effect of Investiture.
• The Dahkor actively messing with Aons fits as well. They could know a specific form of Investiture that counters a specific other form (like Allomantic copper), or something that just breaks all Investiture of a specific system (like Allomantic chromium).

There are other examples, especially Brandon's discussion about how he had to make sure the limitations of the Metallic Arts were enough to make it play nice with the other systems. 

 

It's pretty clear that if something interferes with the normal use of Investiture, it's because it is Invested as well.

 

So the conclusion that seems obvious to me is that aluminum must have some innate Investiture. Notice that we've never seen a duralumin fueled push or pull against aluminum, or a duralumin fueled soothing or rioting against someone wearing aluminum. It's totally possible that these might work. Even likely, I'd say, given Brandon's on-the-record concern with making sure the most spectacular effects of allomancy incorporated duralumin, hemalurgy, or the mists. That keeps the baseline of the Metallic Arts from being too overpowered.

 

Also, isn't there a distinct possibility that ralkalest and Threnody silver actually are aluminum? We do know that "silver isn't always silver", don't we?

 

Anyway, my own take on the term "anti-Investiture" would be that when Investiture is specifically used to counter other Investiture, you could call it "anti-Investiture". In that case, the best options we've seen are Allomantic copper and whatever the Dahkor did. But there's not some system of specific counters or anything like that. Allomancy, for instance, has several, not one. And objects that interfere naturally, like Shardplate, do so just because they are Invested. 

[Moogle]

Just to add a small point to Windy's post, which may require clarification:
 
Metals are not the power source in Allomancy. They are not Investiture themselves, save in the case of atium and lerasium (which we've never seen aluminum try to destroy). The fact that aluminum gets rid of your metals does not mean it has anti-Investiture properties, because it's not doing anything to the Investiture (or is it?). It just seems to be activating your body's internal mechanism to tell metals to git burnin' and gimme some of dat Preservation, except it leaves out that last part.
 
The annotations note this:

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation’s did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it’s this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation’s power. It’s like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.
Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn’t be needed.
(source)

 
The metals serve to play around with your innate Investiture, which in turn allows you to draw on Preservation to power your magic. The exact mechanisms are interesting and we only have theories on how this works, but either way I'm not sure aluminum interferes with Investiture at all. Its complement, duralumin, is interesting because it does the same thing but does give you the power from your instantly burned up metals, which suggests aluminum might have some sort of anti-Investiture property and blocks you off from the Investiture you're drawing from Preservation (if you're drawing any at all). It's rich ground for theories, but at this point I don't think we can confidently state it does much to Investiture. We do have this WoB though:

Douglas
What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know?

Brandon Sanderson
Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities.
(source)

Edited February 11, 2015 by Moogle

[Sirce Luckwielder]

Replying to Windrunner's Cross-Examination

 

What precisely do you mean by "an Invested"? 

 

I was meaning anything that uses a Shard's power.  Generally this is a person, an Allomancer, Surgebinder, etc. but it can also refer to a sentient object, Nightblood, for example, feeds off of Investiture.

 

I'm not at all certain what you mean by investment.

 

I was referring to when an Invested gains the ability to use Investiture to access a Shard's power.  A Misting Snapping or a Knight Radiant saying the Immortal Words.

 

But the next bit about Investment being a key kind of loses me. If you're already Invested there's no need to transcend the borders of the Realms, you have spiritual energy already. Are you talking more about Elantrians when they draw the Aons to create external places to channel Investiture through such as the Aons, rather than through their own body like say a Mistborn?

Here is my quote:

 

 

When a being is Invested, they can then transcend the boundaries of the Physical Realm and access a Shard's Power. If the boundaries between Realms are a safe, then a Shard's power is the bullion within and the manifestation of Investiture is the code to unlock that safe. Any other code will not open the safe, only the preordained set of digits. 

 

Investiture is the things that allow an Invested to access a Shard's power. Things like drawing an Aon, Stormlight, or Metallurgic metals. You said "If you're already Invested there's no need to transcend the borders of the Realms, you have spiritual energy already." I disagree.  We have seen that an Allomancer without metals cannot access Preservation's power.  An Elantrian can't cause someone to heal without drawing the proper Aon, etc.  So an Invested does need these things to access a Shard's power. Just look at the quote that Moogle found:

 

 

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation’s did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it’s this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation’s power. It’s like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.
Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn’t be needed.

By this, we can see that my analogy works.  Invested can use Investiture as a key to unlock a Shard's power. My thoughts with anti-investiture is that it removes the key, making the power unattainable. It doesn't matter how good you can draw Aons if I can dissipate them as the Dahkor seem to do.

 

Change of View

 

Here is the original question that I asked him.

 

"So each anti-investiture is like its world's investiture, but can't be effected by it. So aluminum can't be affected and destroyes Allomancy, ralkalest can't be Soulstamped, Shardblades are blunted by that one thing. Is the black filled sphere that Galivar gives to Szeth the anti-investiture to Stormlight?" When I asked this, he became much more tight-lipped and said that was an interesting theory and that I would learn more in book three.

 

 

When I used the term, I was mostly molding it to a theory that I had, that there were different materials in the Cosmere that are integrated parts of each system but interfere with the system. I was thinking that this was something significant that could tie all of the systems together.  I thought that if each one had this anti-investiture, that it would be significant.  Maybe it ties the systems together, maybe they all be combined to do something special. I wasn't really sure.  We don't have enough on the concept of theorized anti-investiture to even make assumptions as of yet.

 

Now that the discussion is going, I like this theory:

I think this discussion is missing a very important point. Brandon has frequently talked about the fact that Investiture interferes with other Investitures, whether of the same system or not.

• The reason Allomancers can't pull or push on metal in someone's body (easily) is because their innate Investiture interferes. 
• The reason that Shardblades are blocked by everything from other Shardblades to Shardplate to Nightblood (and probably Half-Shards) is because they are both Invested objects, and thus can't just use their powers directly against one another.
• It is more difficult to Lash someone in Shardplate, again because its Investiture interferes.
• Allomantic copper is a form of Investiture that specifically interferes with specific other forms of Investiture
• Allomantic aluminum and Allomantic chromium fit that mold, as well. As do Allomantic duralumin and Allomantic nicrosil, when you think about it. There's nothing special about the burning of aluminum. It's just an effect of Investiture.
• The Dahkor actively messing with Aons fits as well. They could know a specific form of Investiture that counters a specific other form (like Allomantic copper), or something that just breaks all Investiture of a specific system (like Allomantic chromium).

It's pretty clear that if something interferes with the normal use of Investiture, it's because it is Invested as well.

 

 

I had never thought of aluminum having more investiture than the other metals. I always thought that it was an investiture-canceling material, and called it anti-investiture.  However, if it indeed has more investiture than the other metals, it would explain how it cancels them. he "Investiture interferes with other Investiture" idea is actually pretty cool, and I am halfway between my theory and this one. Based on the quote above, I have realigned my thinking of the Dahkor ability to counteract Aons.  We do not know much about that ability, so it could be that the Dahkor just have an Aon-like ability that dissipates the effects of other Aons.  This could be just them having an ability with more invesiture (it took fifty deaths to gain it) than an Elantrian Aon has. This could just be another case of investiture messing with other invesiture.

 

Notice that all of that all of the examples that I used as "evidence" in my question are physical, ralkalest, aluminum, and the blunting material on Shardblades.  If the materials that contain excessive investiture are all physical manifestations, there could be a link. I refer to the same post as before:

 

Also, isn't there a distinct possibility that ralkalest and Threnody silver actually are aluminum? We do know that "silver isn't always silver", don't we?

 

Anyway, my own take on the term "anti-Investiture" would be that when Investiture is specifically used to counter other Investiture, you could call it "anti-Investiture".

 

If things like ralkalest, silver on Threnody, aluminum, and the Shardblade blunting material are all the same thing, just with different names on each planet. If we are going upon the theory that all of these materials have too much investiture and thus interfere with the systems, then these could be a key that fits into a bigger lock that just one Shard's power. I am going to leave that open for right now and see what people say, but I think that this could be something crazy big that we have figured out.

 

Conclusion

 

But wait, what about Duralumin?

Before you ask about Duralumin, hear what I have to say. Earlier in the debate I talked about impure sources of investiture:

 

It is the same way with impure alloys and metals on Skadrial. The Shard's place their power into specific system and any taints to it result in the power being warped. This is like Agonists. Agonists are molecules that are similar enough to a neurotransmitter, such as dopamine or serotonin, that it can mimic its effects when it goes into the neurotransmitter's receiver. Because they can mimic the effect, they cause a similar response, but it is warped as they are not the pure neurotransmitter. In the same way, an impure alloy can still cause an effect as long as it is not too much different. In this way, Investiture must be in a pure form to obtain the highest utilization of the Shard's power.

 

If we were to make an alloy of aluminum, it would "taint" the material and the investiture would not be as effective.  This may or may not also explain duralumin's explosive power.  If we brought the investiture from an incredibly high level to a more manageable level it could possibly still have an explosive effect, just more on the level that we see in the books.  This is tenuous, and is a theory that is wrapped up in a theory (that is also kind of wrapped up in a theory).  I just wanted to address it before anybody else has questions.

 

Everything is related to Adonalsium in the cosmere. I consider this fairly damning evidence against an Anti-Adonalsium.

When I was referencing an "Anti-Adonalsium" I was just referencing your first post, and mistook that you shared my views in there not being an Anti-Adonalsium.  I was thinking that you supported it and was trying to reference my essay to yours. Here is my referencing Anti-Adonalsium, you can see that I believed anti-invesiture to be of Adonalsium. Even not believing in it, I don't think that we can discount Adonalsium to be without an enemy. After all, it did shatter, perhaps by an opposing force, perhaps not. We still don't know, so we can't really use it until we know more.

You reference something as “Anti-Adonalsium” and say this “is clearly not the case.” I agree in a way, these are integrated into the systems of Investiture, so it is likely to be of Adonalsium. It could also be something that is not Adonalsium, it could be this “Anti-Adonalsium” as you term it.  Again, we don’t know.  We can speculate, but we don’t have the facts or the data until Brandon allows us to know about them.

 

[IAmTheBeard]

Obviously we can't be sure that all the physical objects we've seen "block" the effects of investiture are all aluminum. However, I think a good case can be made the Threnody silver, ralkalest, and Nightblood's sheath all are, indeed, aluminum. At the very least, however, they probably fit a similar pattern. Silver acting against shades, especially, acts a lot like Investiture vs. Investiture interference.

 

Sirce Dawnwielder, you're not doing yourself any favors by using the terms Invested and Investiture incorrectly. These are terms that appear in the books and therefore have canonical meaning. An Invested object is one actually currently imbued with power. For instance, an Awakened object, or Shardplate/blade/Nightblood. Objects with Innate Investiture aren't usually referred to as Invested, though they could be, in a way. That's what we're suggesting aluminum is, an innately Invested object. The term never refers to a person capable of accessing shardic power. That would be an Allomancer, Awakener, Surgebinder, etc. Is there a word for a general Cosmere magic user? I can't think of one right now...

[Sirce Luckwielder]

Sirce Dawnwielder, you're not doing yourself any favors by using the terms Invested and Investiture incorrectly. These are terms that appear in the books and therefore have canonical meaning. An Invested object is one actually currently imbued with power. For instance, an Awakened object, or Shardplate/blade/Nightblood. Objects with Innate Investiture aren't usually referred to as Invested, though they could be, in a way. That's what we're suggesting aluminum is, an innately Invested object. The term never refers to a person capable of accessing shardic power. That would be an Allomancer, Awakener, Surgebinder, etc. Is there a word for a general Cosmere magic user? I can't think of one right now...

Unless you have another term for an individual that can access a Shard's power, I think that "Invested" works until we have a better one. This is at least the term that I use. If you have "canonical" evidence and quotes to back up he use of terms I will happily hear what you have to say and correct myself. Until then, I would use my own terms. David did the same thing until Tia informed him otherwise.

[skaa]

The term never refers to a person capable of accessing shardic power. That would be an Allomancer, Awakener, Surgebinder, etc. Is there a word for a general Cosmere magic user? I can't think of one right now...

There was a thread a year or two ago discussing possible fanon terms for Cosmere magic users. I think Invested Beings was one proposal, but I don't think there was a consensus among the participants. Anyway, I really don't see anything wrong with describing Elantrians, Dakhor monks, Hemalurgic creatures, and Knights Radiant as Invested, because they are obviously imbued with power. Allomancers and Surgebinders are even explicitly described by Brandon as persons who've had the cracks in their souls filled with a Shard's power. Of course, there are manifestations of Investiture that don't require the users themselves to be Invested (e.g. fabrial users, Forgers, etc.), and it might not be best to use the term "Invested" for those.

Fascinating discussion, guys. I personally don't have strong feelings for or against non-canon terms like "anti-Investiture", as I have my own list of non-canon terms that I use, but it's fun to read these kinds of threads from time to time.

Edited February 12, 2015 by skaa

[Sirce Luckwielder]

There was a thread a year or two ago discussing possible fanon terms for Cosmere magic users. I think Invested Beings was one proposal, but I don't think there was a consensus among the participants. Anyway, I really don't see anything wrong with describing Elantrians, Dakhor monks, Hemalurgic creatures, and Knights Radiant as Invested, because they are obviously imbued with power. Allomancers and Surgebinders are even explicitly described by Brandon as persons who've had the cracks in their souls filled with a Shard's power.

Thank you for that. I have been a member for less than a fortnight so I have not had time to delve back even close to that far.

Of course, there are manifestations of Investiture that don't require the users themselves to be Invested (e.g. fabrial users, Forgers, etc.), and it might not be best to use the term "Invested" for those.

I think that you are right on the account of fabrial users not being Invested. That is like saying that Shardbearers are filled with investiture, but it is not. They are merely using objects fueled by investiture.

Fascinating discussion, guys. I personally don't have strong feelings for or against non-canon terms like "anti-Investiture", as I have my own list of non-canon terms that I use, but it's fun to read these kinds of threads from time to time.

I agree. What says fanatical nerd followers of the cosmere like a thread where people write essays of about 1800 words to describe things that we have no clue about? Not to say that we don't have evidence to support our theories, but we have no official Words of Brandon concerning anti-investiture using that term.

[Windrunner]

I was meaning anything that uses a Shard's power.  Generally this is a person, an Allomancer, Surgebinder, etc. but it can also refer to a sentient object, Nightblood, for example, feeds off of Investiture.

I was referring to when an Invested gains the ability to use Investiture to access a Shard's power. A Misting Snapping or a Knight Radiant saying the Immortal Words.

Ah okay, good to know for sure what you were referring to.

 

Investiture is the things that allow an Invested to access a Shard's power. Things like drawing an Aon, Stormlight, or Metallurgic metals. You said "If you're already Invested there's no need to transcend the borders of the Realms, you have spiritual energy already." I disagree.  We have seen that an Allomancer without metals cannot access Preservation's power.  An Elantrian can't cause someone to heal without drawing the proper Aon, etc.  So an Invested does need these things to access a Shard's power. Just look at the quote that Moogle found:

 

By this, we can see that my analogy works.  Invested can use Investiture as a key to unlock a Shard's power. My thoughts with anti-investiture is that it removes the key, making the power unattainable. It doesn't matter how good you can draw Aons if I can dissipate them as the Dahkor seem to do.

 

I don't think you have the proper definition of Investiture. I'll quote what I said in my original post.

 

In my knowledge of cosmere canon, the word Investiture is used in two specific contexts. Firstly, it can be used to describe a source or type of spiritual energy. Breath is Investiture, Stormlight is Investiture, the Dor is Investiture. The other context is has been used is to refer to a magic system as a "manifestation of Investiture". Allomancy is a manifestation of Investiture, so is Surgebinding, ChayShan, and so on. So one usage appears to refer to a spiritual energy, and the other refers to a method by which the energy is accessed or utilized.

Investiture is not a connection to a Shard that allows someone to use a Shard's energy. Investiture is that energy itself. With it, it does bring a connection to the Shard it is derived from, but that is more of a side effect. It is not some key. Investiture is spiritual energy. Here's a quote where Brandon confirms it to be energy, not an access key. I think what you're looking for, the ability to draw a Shard's energy through the realms would be found in a person's spiritual DNA (or sDNA as we typically abbreviate it).

 

QUESTION

How does Nightblood work on Roshar?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well Nightblood feeds on Investiture, which is the general life-force/magic-force in the cosmere and so he can feed on basically any source of magical energy.

Hope that clears things up.

 

When I was referencing an "Anti-Adonalsium" I was just referencing your first post, and mistook that you shared my views in there not being an Anti-Adonalsium.  I was thinking that you supported it and was trying to reference my essay to yours. Here is my referencing Anti-Adonalsium, you can see that I believed anti-invesiture to be of Adonalsium. Even not believing in it, I don't think that we can discount Adonalsium to be without an enemy. After all, it did shatter, perhaps by an opposing force, perhaps not. We still don't know, so we can't really use it until we know more.

Mmhmm, I got that. I just wanted to add a quote in to get rid of any uncertainty on the Anti-Adonalsium thing. I still do believe that that quote at the very least assures us that it's not at all involved in powering aluminum, and most likely rules out an Anti-Adonalsium altogether.