Curiosity Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 Reading through WoR, I found Chapter 44's epigraph to be elucidative on a subject that has been previously discussed. But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14 (emphasis mine) Note the use of the singular "was" in the above sentence. This points to the conclusion that every Bondsmith bonds to the Stormfather. Yes, Nightwatcher or Cusicesh have been popular guesses for their bond-spren, but I believe that this paragraph excludes those possibilities. Arguing the other way, one could say that, in-world, "Their spren was understood to be specific..." meaning that this could be a misunderstanding similar to the Scadrian assumption that atium was a normal metal. However, I find this unlikely, since the sentence seems to be focused more on the "holiness" and exclusivity of bonding the Stormfather. Thoughts? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 The translation could be inaccurate or the information incorrect or misinterpreted; in-world WoR is ~200 after Recreanse. There's a thread where the possibility of the Stormfather bonding more than one Bondsmith has been discussed if you'd like to take a look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 While I strongly believe the Bondsmiths only bond the Stormfather (and I will fight the theorizers of the "maybe they bond godspren" theory to the death over it ), I'm not sure this epigraph this applies. The in-world Words of Radiance has some very odd grammar at times. I'd count this as weak evidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahak Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Reading through WoR, I found Chapter 44's epigraph to be elucidative on a subject that has been previously discussed. Note the use of the singular "was" in the above sentence. This points to the conclusion that every Bondsmith bonds to the Stormfather. Or that the understanding was in the past. Either due to being wrong or because the writer is distancing herself from making the claim directly due to the passage of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Or that the understanding was in the past. Either due to being wrong or because the writer is distancing herself from making the claim directly due to the passage of time. Or even due to our favorite book-changing Vorinists going through and changing things in books to better fit in with their own interpretation of the world. If this included Cultivation previously, removing that name helps to emphasize the importance of Honor/Almighty/Stormfather in the world, while also making what the Radiants did that much more blasphemous (mere people, bonded to the Holiest of holies, and betraying Him? It's--dude, that's like...imagine you're Catholic, and one day the Pope has a press conference saying that he's done with God and turning his back on him for all time. Except worse than that. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good analogy here.) Also, even if all Bondsmiths bonded to the Stormfather, that doesn't mean that they couldn't have bonded with other god-spren to achieve essentially the same result. eg, bonding Syl gives access to Windrunner powers, but bonding Syl is not the limiting factor--bonding an honorspren is. The question to be answered remains: Are the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher the same type of spren? Or, "What Order would someone belong to who formed a Bond with the Nightwatcher?" edit: my brain hates me tonight. Fixed mention of Cultivation when I meant Nightwatcher. Thanks natc Edited February 15, 2015 by kaellok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscience Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) This is probably addressed in another thread and if it is feel free to redirect me there, but if the Bondsmiths only bond the Stormfather then who did they bond to before Honor's splintering? This is what I don't get: I have heard it said the Stormfather is Honor's cognitive shadow and Honor's splintering must have occurred after the Recreance since he tells Dalinar, "The Knights Radiant must stand again," but Pattern told Shallan "Not just one people," Pattern said, solemn. "Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call the Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance." So therefore the Stormfather must have existed before Honor was splintered since he was not splintered until after the Recreance. Edited February 15, 2015 by Omniscience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Or even due to our favorite book-changing Vorinists going through and changing things in books to better fit in with their own interpretation of the world. If this included Cultivation previously, removing that name helps to emphasize the importance of Honor/Almighty/Stormfather in the world, while also making what the Radiants did that much more blasphemous (mere people, bonded to the Holiest of holies, and betraying Him? It's--dude, that's like...imagine you're Catholic, and one day the Pope has a press conference saying that he's done with God and turning his back on him for all time. Except worse than that. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good analogy here.) Also, even if all Bondsmiths bonded to the Stormfather, that doesn't mean that they couldn't have bonded with other god-spren to achieve essentially the same result. eg, bonding Syl gives access to Windrunner powers, but bonding Syl is not the limiting factor--bonding an honorspren is. The question to be answered remains: Are the Stormfather and Cultivation the same type of spren? Or, "What Order would someone belong to who formed a Bond with Cultivation?" Of course they aren't the same type of spren. Cultivation is a Shard of Adonalsium, not a splinter :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Also, even if all Bondsmiths bonded to the Stormfather, that doesn't mean that they couldn't have bonded with other god-spren to achieve essentially the same result. eg, bonding Syl gives access to Windrunner powers, but bonding Syl is not the limiting factor--bonding an honorspren is. The question to be answered remains: Are the Stormfather and Cultivation the same type of spren? Or, "What Order would someone belong to who formed a Bond with Cultivation?" I agree that this is the question to ask: are there any other spren like the Stormfather? People call powerful spren like the Nightwatcher + Stormfather "godspren", but that doesn't sit well with me. They're not at all similar like honorspren are. Calling them godspren seems like an abuse of the -spren naming convention. "Godspren" is a description of power levels, which isn't what matters for the spren of Radiant orders. They don't share the same themes - the Stormfather is all about, well, highstorms, and the Nightwatcher is about boons and curses. At this point, I think the Stormfather is one of a kind. If there were other spren of the highstorms, I think Bondsmiths could result from a bond with them. Edited February 15, 2015 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 I think people are using the term 'Godspren' as a generic title for the 'unique' Spren, like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. The comment that Honour wasn't shattered until after the Recreance makes me wonder though, if Stormfather was around before then, how could he be Honour's cognitive shadow? And wouldn't that make him, and Nightwatcher, and various other unique Spren, Spren of Adonalsium as opposed to Spren of Honour/Cultivation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 I think people are using the term 'Godspren' as a generic title for the 'unique' Spren, like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. Right, but that still doesn't seem to me to be a very good usage of the word. All honorspren are attracted to honorable actions/feelings/people, all painspren attracted to pain, etc. What are godspren supposed to be attracted to? Godspren are not spren in the typical sense of the word, they're an entirely different way to categorize spren. "Godspren" categorizes spren by how "unique" they are, rather than what attracts them. I feel like people might conflate something like honorspren and godspren. I worry that people see that Windrunners all bond honorspren, so then they see the word godspren used to refer to the Stormfather and then they think, "hey all Bondsmiths bond godspren". But godspren is not really a spren type in the same way that honorspren is, so... I don't know, I just feel uncomfortable with the usage of the word in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 I can understand that, but I think it slightly catchier than Adonalsiumspren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Right, but that still doesn't seem to me to be a very good usage of the word. All honorspren are attracted to honorable actions/feelings/people, all painspren attracted to pain, etc. What are godspren supposed to be attracted to? And there are starspren, what are they attracted to? I agree 'godspren' is weird and misleading term, but it's not the only confusing one we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 My personal opinion is that starspren are in fact either shooting stars, or Allomantically powered spacecraft from Scadrial. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze1616 Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 My personal opinion is that starspren are in fact either shooting stars, or Allomantically powered spacecraft from Scadrial. But SA does not occur far enough into the future for it to be space craft. It could be shooting stars, but I thought it was mentioned that they did loops in the sky. And there are starspren, what are they attracted to? I agree 'godspren' is weird and misleading term, but it's not the only confusing one we have. Starspren are named such by Rosharans. Considering their understanding of spren and stars, it is a logical name to give them. Knowing Brandon there is doubtless an actual reason, such as UV-radiation spren, ozone spren, etc. Godspren, on the other hand, is a fandom name that we have applied and defined. The difference between the two, starspren and godspren, essentially comes down to who has defined it. I would personally not lump them together, as they are completely different situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honor's Radiance Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 This is probably addressed in another thread and if it is feel free to redirect me there, but if the Bondsmiths only bond the Stormfather then who did they bond to before Honor's splintering? This is what I don't get: I have heard it said the Stormfather is Honor's cognitive shadow and Honor's splintering must have occurred after the Recreance since he tells Dalinar, "The Knights Radiant must stand again," but Pattern told Shallan: "Not just one people," Pattern said, solemn. "Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call the Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance." So therefore the Stormfather must have existed before Honor was splintered since he was not splintered until after the Recreance. I actually don't think that follows. I think what Pattern is saying there is that very few of the spren who were bonded to the Radiants survived, and the Stormfather was one of them. So, there may be others like the Stormfather who were bonded (and most likely to Bondsmiths if it can be concluded that their ability to survive correlates to a similarity to the Stormfather). As for the term "godspren," I don't feel it's as inaccurate as a lot of people are maintaining--though perhaps now that we know the Stormfather is a splinter of Honor, we ought to call them "Shardspren." I think the defining feature of a spren is not that it is attracted to a certain genre of things in the physical world, but that it is a representation of a certain idea (tables have spren, etc.). Spren live in the cognitive realm, so their primary attribute is that of being a cognitive thing. Honestly, the very fact that we can conceive of a category which could be called godspren should support their existence. If there is a conception of gods, then it follows that there could possibly be godspren. Plus, the Stormfather outright says he is effectively Honor's spren when he speaks to ...Kaladin? Dalinar? I can't remember where in WoR... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Pretty sure they're all Shard splinters though. Even the Adonalsium types. Edited February 16, 2015 by natc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) As for the term "godspren," I don't feel it's as inaccurate as a lot of people are maintaining--though perhaps now that we know the Stormfather is a splinter of Honor, we ought to call them "Shardspren." I think the defining feature of a spren is not that it is attracted to a certain genre of things in the physical world, but that it is a representation of a certain idea (tables have spren, etc.). Spren live in the cognitive realm, so their primary attribute is that of being a cognitive thing. Honestly, the very fact that we can conceive of a category which could be called godspren should support their existence. If there is a conception of gods, then it follows that there could possibly be godspren. Plus, the Stormfather outright says he is effectively Honor's spren when he speaks to ...Kaladin? Dalinar? I can't remember where in WoR... Well, we could say that both Syl and Pattern are attracted to abstract, non-physical things, and call them abstractspren. But Windrunners only bond honorspren, so this category is not very useful for determining what spren a certain order can bond. We need to be more specific. The idea of spren that are direct representations of a Shard has merit. It's certainly a distinct category we can draw. My only issue is using the syntax "-spren" to describe it, because it leads to the problem where we say the Stormfather is a godspren, and the Nightwatcher is a godspren, so maybe Bondsmiths can bond the Nightwatcher! Everywhere in the novels uses "-spren" to signify a very specific type of spren where all the spren are nearly identical. It's entirely possible there's "godspren", spren attracted whenever gods are invoked or are strongly associated with a place, like churches. But these spren should all be identical, they wouldn't be of differing Shards really... the Stormfather isn't attracted to Vorin monasteries, nor is the Nightwatcher, and he isn't attracted to ardents, so I don't know if this applies to them. Rather than call the Stormfather a godspren, I'd be more specific and call him a highstormspren. Or perhaps an Honorspren (capital H to differentiate from Syl's honorspren). This is a category of spren I could get behind all Bondsmiths bonding, because it's very specific. It would differentiate him from the Nightwatcher, who could be a Cultivationspren or a boonspren or something. It's not at all clear that he's actually a spren, too. The Stormfather calls himself a spren to Dalinar, but this could just be a word he's using to let Dalinar understand him more easily rather than launch into an explanation of Cognitive Shadows. Note how he hesitates, as if it's not entirely true: “You said that you were a fragment of the Almighty.” I AM HIS . . . SPREN, YOU MIGHT SAY. NOT HIS SOUL. I AM THE MEMORY MEN CREATE FOR HIM, NOW THAT HE IS GONE. THE PERSONIFICATION OF STORMS AND OF THE DIVINE. I AM NO GOD. I AM BUT A SHADOW OF ONE. Edited February 16, 2015 by Moogle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Shard Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I think it is definitely possible and probably true that multiple people bonded the Stormfather - it is implied in the quote about Bondsmiths that they could increase past three members, and as far as we know there are only three "godspren" (superpowerful spren for Moogle) to bond - therefore, one must have been bonded more than once. But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14 (emphasis mine) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arondell Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 It seemed to me that most of the powerful spren that are discussed or seen are not really thought of as having a category. It is as if there level of power transcends normal categorization. They are unique and are simply cognitive shadows of very powerful unique entities. Trying to give them all a category beyond "unique" could even be misleading since they all represent different things. As for whether the Stormfather is actually a spren or not, I would fall on the side of "yes". Other entities of similar power have been referred to as spren so the Stormfather should also qualify as one. (e.g. Nightwatcher, Nergaoul) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftucker0525 Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Well, i think what the Stormfather is categorized as depends on how your going to categorize. Is an honorspren an honorspren because they are attracted to honor or because they are honorable which makes them seek out other honorable things? Or maybe (i find this one semi-unlikely) an honorspren is an honorspren because they have achieved that rank. Maybe a Spren changes what type opf spren it is on a ranking system. i.e a cryptic has become renowned enough to earn a higher place making it the next level of Spren. This would account for the resentment that other Spren have for honorspren, because they have achieved the highest level of Spren-dom possible withoiut a certain threshold of power. Obviously this is all theoretical but i kinda like it. Feel free to shoot me down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) I think that the Godspren are a legitimate catagory and appropriate for the Bondsmiths to bond to. Their associations are different, but they seem to be supreme over categories of spren. The bondsmiths apparently possess control over the Radiant bond itself, and thus control over both Honor-related spren and Cultivation-related spren, while the Stormfather is only in control of the Honor-related spren. Edited February 19, 2015 by name_here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 Yeah, if we classify "godspren" in the same sense as "god metal" it might make more sense. It's still really just a fan term though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honor's Radiance Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I think that the Godspren are a legitimate catagory and appropriate for the Bondsmiths to bond to. Their associations are different, but they seem to be supreme over categories of spren. The bondsmiths apparently possess control over the Radiant bond itself, and thus control over both Honor-related spren and Cultivation-related spren, while the Stormfather is only in control of the Honor-related spren. This does remind me that the Stormfather refers to Syl as his daughter. Can someone remind me whether it's all spren that are referred to as his children, or just honorspren? Because I think this notion that he has some sort of authority over some or all normal spren would be useful to trying to categorize him as spren or not and what kind. Actually, come to think of it, the Stormfather refers to humans as 'children of Honor'. So, if Syl and other (honor)spren are his children, then that further supports the analogy of him being Honor's spren--which it was rightly pointed out was acknowledged in the book as an only semi-accurate classification. Nevertheless, it does suggest the possibility (which someone mentioned at least tangentially) that the Stormfather serves a similar role for the spren as does Honor for the humans. Which leaves me to wonder--who or what is the Adonalsium of spren? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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