Have we discussed Nightblood's shard-like qualities, yet?

[Pechvarry]

The process of Awakening Nightblood wasn't very straightforward. Vasher's internal dialogue in the book mentions how he's nothing like what they expected.

I want to propose 2 concepts:

1) Awakened objects gain their own "Heightenings" of a sort. In addition to the massive Breath requirements to Awaken a sword, simply having that much Breath in the same object provides additional boons just because of the power it's holding. Note that it's very likely the item would need to be "activated" for this to occur. Though it would be interesting to see what would happen if the God-King invested all of his breaths into a scarf with no Commands, I'm guessing it wouldn't exhibit any Heightenings without having a a command to Awaken.

2) The above effect is providing Investment, the power and form of a shard. As I can't help but notice a similarity between Awakened Commands and Shardic Intents, I propose that Nightblood could be a (limited and inferior) man-made Shard.

It has an intelligence derived entirely by his Intent, requires a human to be at its fullest, continually attempts to sway its owner towards following its Intent. Why can Nightblood go against the Intent of Endowment's magic system and rip out Breaths? Because he's pushing his own Shardic influence, effectively warping the magic system into his own.

As I said, it's a far cry from the real thing. But I wouldn't be surprised if he's effectively "the stuff" of Shards.

[Windrunner]

Well, as many people believe that Breath is part of Endowment and Nightblood is gains its sentience from Breath that means it's made of the same stuff as Shards. Even if Breath isn't of Endowment, it's still spiritual energy. It's entirely possible that what Vasher and Shashara did was to fashion a Splinter and give it its own intent. (Which we know can be separate from the Shard it came from) If he is a Splinter, that's probably the link between him and spren that Brandon has alluded to.

I do disagree with the fact that he's breaking Awakening though. He sucks up Breaths for sure, but it could be that wielding him is permission enough for him to steal Breaths away. Or perhaps, as you say, the person is like his Shardholder, so they may be enough of a single entity that he's not stealing anything, because he's effectively become a part of you. I like your ideas.

[Observer]

Do splinters need an intent? Because, if so, what part of Endowment is Nightblood?

On a side note, if you were to absorb a rediculous abount of Stormlight, hold an absurd amount of breaths, or somehow burn all your metals at duralumin level for an extended time, would you eventually hold enough of a shard's power to become a splinter? If so, would you gain an intent to go with it? Just a question.

Also, quick question: Does a splinter retain the mind of the original shard, at least in part? (Like a hemalurgic spike split, or a feruchemical metalmind shattered. See where I'm going with this?)

[Pechvarry]

@windrunner: that's a good point. A binding, consensual contract written up like a dirty car lease. Though I was also thinking about the breaths of those struck, I guess the corrupted breath fumes are actually all that's left behind. The one thing it can't destroy.

@Observer: I see where you're going and I think they're questions which need asked.

I doubt duralumin level burning would make you a demigod (though the opposite has held true so far - TLR burned at that level because if his shardic influence). Likewise, stormlight appears to have a personal capacity. The only people capable of holding that much power are likely already divine. But we have the God-King as a feasible Breath example. He's not a splinter. But then, he's not your typical awakened object (more on this later).

You're also implying that a splinter of Endowment should probably have an Intent derivative of the parent shard. Like, a splinter of Ruin might be called Rust.

The distinction I want to make is that Breath is different. Vasher and Shashara reprogrammed a large quantity of splinters to a single purpose. This is (entirely in my opinion) due to just how open Endowment's magic system is. As a computer analogy, it gives so much of itself, it even hands out its admin password.

People were created to be people, Returned were created to be Returned. When either type holds 10000 breaths, that doesn't change what they were created for. But a sword with thousands of Breaths, created with commands? The Intent is clear: Destroy Evil.

And this is the stuff that makes me feel like Warbreaker is an underappreciated book from a Cosmere perspective.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Pechvarry

[Voidus]

Just a quick aside, if a person gained that much power I think they would be termed a Sliver, not a Splinter, Duralumin burning metals for an extended period would be incredibly dangerous since we already know how much ordinary Savants risk, as well as the fact that it would be almost impossible to ingest enough metal to continually burn it at Duralumin levels, I think you would simply die. Same goes for Stormlight, there is an upper limit to how much you could hold.

[Observer]

My real point was that if you drew in enough Shard power, would you gain an intent and become, essentially, a piece of it?

[Voidus]

Well when Vin drew in enough of Preservation she became Preservation but that was because no one else held the Shard. I suspect that you would gain the same intent as the Shard, I think somewhere in the annotations it mentions that the more Preservation a person had the more they Preserved (Although they may have still been bad people) I'll try to find the quote.

EDIT: That was quick, found it!

Preservation�s touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn�t make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

It's more implied than stated but this does support your point that even a piece of a Shard can influence someone with it's Intent.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Voidus

[Vortaan]

The process of Awakening Nightblood wasn't very straightforward. Vasher's internal dialogue in the book mentions how he's nothing like what they expected.

I want to propose 2 concepts:

1) Awakened objects gain their own "Heightenings" of a sort. In addition to the massive Breath requirements to Awaken a sword, simply having that much Breath in the same object provides additional boons just because of the power it's holding. Note that it's very likely the item would need to be "activated" for this to occur. Though it would be interesting to see what would happen if the God-King invested all of his breaths into a scarf with no Commands, I'm guessing it wouldn't exhibit any Heightenings without having a a command to Awaken.

2) The above effect is providing Investment, the power and form of a shard. As I can't help but notice a similarity between Awakened Commands and Shardic Intents, I propose that Nightblood could be a (limited and inferior) man-made Shard.

It has an intelligence derived entirely by his Intent, requires a human to be at its fullest, continually attempts to sway its owner towards following its Intent. Why can Nightblood go against the Intent of Endowment's magic system and rip out Breaths? Because he's pushing his own Shardic influence, effectively warping the magic system into his own.

As I said, it's a far cry from the real thing. But I wouldn't be surprised if he's effectively "the stuff" of Shards.

The only problem I see here is that it isn't an apples to apples situation. Shards only have a weak will on their own (per Sazed), and no intelligence really. I don't think they actually do much to service their intent without a guiding mind. Nightblood is a fully sentient being. He tries to figure out how to destroy evil, there are just conceptual gaps in his knowledge because... well, he's a sentient piece of metal, and has no experience really to draw on to create such distinctions. Both Shards and Nightblood need people to function at their fullest, but it's almost for opposite reasons. Nightblood really just needs a hand to wield him so he can go to town, whereas Shards actually seem to need a guiding mind to be able to accomplish much of worth.

[Voidus]

Seons were conscious and they were Splinters (probably) Spren are less conscious but they can become fully aware and they are Splinters, I don't think that Nightblood is unlike Splinters that we have seen.

[Vortaan]

Seons were conscious and they were Splinters (probably) Spren are less conscious but they can become fully aware and they are Splinters, I don't think that Nightblood is unlike Splinters that we have seen.

I can't recall Brandon confirming that either of those things is true. Seons definitely not, and I seem to recall some spren being of both Cultivation and Honor.

[Voidus]

That's why I added the 'probably' we don't have confirmation on either but both are fairly strongly suspected of being Splinters.

[Vortaan]

That's why I added the 'probably' we don't have confirmation on either but both are fairly strongly suspected of being Splinters.

Although actually you're kind of making my point, come to think of it. Neither Seons nor spren seem to be able to function very well without borrowing the Cognitive aspect of a human. Seons do it with the master they are bonded to (probably), and spren with the nahel bond. So while I'll agree that both could be Splinters and give us clues to how holderless Shards would act, Nightblood still falls outside that category.

[Voidus]

Seons do it with the master they are bonded to (probably)

I see what you did there

But there are Spren who are conscious other than Syl (Confirmed by Brandon) so some of these may not be bonded. But actually there is another Brandon quote on the relationship between the three

Objects with almost sentient behavior like Nightblood in Warbreaker share important links with the spren from The Way of Kings. If you understand the spren you will understand a lot about the connection between the books.

So hopefully the answer to this question will be revealed when we have some more SA books.

[Pechvarry]

Very good point, Vortaan. I'll have to think on this.

Also, thank you for that quote, Voidus. Makes me feel like I have something here. Just not sure it's what I thought I had.

[Vortaan]

.. Huh. I think I forgot something in my argument here. The magic system feeding spren and Nightblood are different from each other.

Assuming that Honor is the power behind most spren, it makes complete sense that they would require a bond with a human(ish) being to be sentient. Honor binds things together, making the whole greater than the sum of it's parts.

Nightblood, however, is powered by Endowment. This could be very important because Endowment wouldn't require a continuous bond to provide sentience, but would deliver it in one shot. It could also be why the number of people is much larger for a Nightblood than a Syl.

I still don't think that Shards and Nightblood have much in common... but I'll concede that spren and Nightblood probably have a lot more in common than I first said.

[Pechvarry]

Right, and this goes back to my "reprogramming" concept. Splinters of Honor are still Honor. But splinters of Endowment, through the versatility of the Breath/Awakening system, seem to be given a whole new purpose.

So I suppose beyond even Nightblood, the real question I should be asking is: are all awakenings (the Commands) microcosms of shardic intent?

Edited August 30, 2012 by Pechvarry

[.S.A.M.K.M]

One day in the far future, when there is travel between the shard worlds, Nightblood will help save them from the great evil. It is a creation of magic, capable of feeding on magic so potential will absorb all shards, who ever weilds it would wield the power of adoloism.

[Vortaan]

Right, and this goes back to my "reprogramming" concept. Splinters of Honor are still Honor. But splinters of Endowment, through the versatility of the Breath/Awakening system, seem to be given a whole new purpose.

So I suppose beyond even Nightblood, the real question I should be asking is: are all awakenings (the Commands) microcosms of shardic intent?

I still don't think so, but I honestly can't put into words why I think that. Something about the nature of Commands versus the nature of what Shards seem to represent. I almost want to say that Nightblood is a good example of what I mean, but I can't seem to get the thought process right to explain it. Also I wouldn't necessarily agree that splinters of Honor remain Honor. Certainly so far that would seem to be the case if spren are splinters of Honor, but how do flamespren, windspren, or rotspren figure into Honor?