Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 I need to learn to be more specific. In my copy of Firefight, I asked Brandon for any information about Helaran or his Shardblade he was willing to divulge. He replied with this: Helaran really thought he was doing the right thing. Not exactly the gem I was hoping for. But it's something. I know I may be biased, but I think this only reinforces my opinion that Nalan is not corrupted, but instead believes his actions are ultimately for the good, as Mraize implies Helaran joined the Skybreakers. Granted, this doesn't really imply that Nalan believes he's doing the right thing, and could be corrupting others, but that's about all I can read into this. Anybody else have any thoughts? 4
Patrick Star Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 I think it means that Helaran thought he was doing the right thing. It means that he did it willingly, and wasn't forced to or blackmailed into doing it. I think that more relevant information will be present in Book 3, as Nalan will be one of the main focuses of the book.
RawToast225 he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 It might be a foreshadowing that Heleran was in the process of becoming a KR. Think about it.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Author Posted January 11, 2015 My personal opinion is that all of the Skybreakers attracted a spren and broke their oath on purpose to kill them. It explains why Helaran's blade is a mystery, and why King T thought he could teach Shallan suregebinding.
Patrick Star Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 My personal opinion is that all of the Skybreakers attracted a spren and broke their oath on purpose to kill them. It explains why Helaran's blade is a mystery, and why King T thought he could teach Shallan suregebinding. I don't think so. Jasnah did visit the highspren in shadesmar, so there should be plenty of them. If anything, it seems like the skybreakers may have been the only order to not kill their spren.
Moogle Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 My personal opinion is that all of the Skybreakers attracted a spren and broke their oath on purpose to kill them. It explains why Helaran's blade is a mystery, and why King T thought he could teach Shallan suregebinding. I like the theory, but look at Szeth. If he's anything like the typical Skybreaker, there's no way he'd break his oaths, even if he felt horrible about it. If any of the orders didn't participate in the Recreance, I'd definitely look to the Skybreakers as my top pick.
AerionBFII he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 It makes quite the puzzle Nalan said to Lift that she was dabbling in arts that could return the desolations when he captured her but he leads the supposed Skybreakers. I'm not sure if he's just being bias towards the other KR orders or maybe the rest of the Skybreakers arn't Surgbinders at all they just follow the ideals. I think he truly is doing what he thinks is right, if he really had gone haywire he wouldn't have backed off when Gawx ordered him to.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Author Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) I like the theory, but look at Szeth. If he's anything like the typical Skybreaker, there's no way he'd break his oaths, even if he felt horrible about it. If any of the orders didn't participate in the Recreance, I'd definitely look to the Skybreakers as my top pick. I think that's accounted for and why he was given Nightblood. Szeth doesn't necessarily have to develop a spren bond to become a Skybreaker with my theory, and giving Szeth's another way to invest considering his skill just plain makes sense. Put your best in their best. Edited January 11, 2015 by Fifth of Daybreak
AerionBFII he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Im currently doing a reread of WOR and in the Taravangian Interlude something he said jumped out at me. When he learns that Szeth encountered a Surgbinder protecting Dalinar. He recalls being startled when they found out Shallan turned up on the Shattered Plains. "Jasnah's ward?" Adrotagia said. They had been startled when that one arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they had hypothasized that the girl had been trained, if not by Jasnah then by the girls brother before his death. *this might not be perfect, im using the audio* What do you all make of that? 1
Shlee Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) I had wondered about that quote as well, but I've never been able to make all the pieces fit. It does seem to strongly imply that Heleran at least had some Radiant abilities if he could have "trained" Shallan (plus the mention that he'd joined the skybreakers), but if he'd bonded a spren enough to have a blade, how did his blade stay after he died, like his shards, since unless he'd broken his oath, the spren/blade should have been fine. And if he really was proto-radiant, he shouldn't have been able to handle a common "dead spren" shardblade due to the screaming. I guess there's nothing saying it's impossible to handle one, but it seems like it'd be very problematic and I have a hard time seeing a spren that he was partially bonded with being okay with that. (although, Renarin....) Not to mention, whatever abilities he'd gained must not have done him much good in battle, since, you know, death by common spearman and all. So possibly he had an honor blade?? (that Amaram has now?? Scary....) or Nalan has some other way of training his followers?? Or can you "join the skybreakers" or at least Nalan's current corrupted version without having any abilities at all and you just do what you're told in the name of justice? I feel like I'm missing some piece of something somewhere. Edited January 11, 2015 by Shlee
maetel39 Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 I wondered why use the word "trained". I mean he knows about the nahel bond, but does he really know the process to become a radiant. So far, no one has got training on becoming a knights radiant. its probably nothing but thats one of the things that caught my attention when i first went through it.
gjustice99 she/her Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 I wondered why use the word "trained". I mean he knows about the nahel bond, but does he really know the process to become a radiant. So far, no one has got training on becoming a knights radiant. its probably nothing but thats one of the things that caught my attention when i first went through it. "Trained" to become a KR is basically becoming a squire. So maybe Heleran really was a proto radiant
AerionBFII he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Maybe if a radiant dies their spren also dies? Does Taravangian also know of the existence of Nale? Now that would be.......interesting
Moogle Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Nalan would know enough about the Radiants that every Skybreaker should know, particularly if they make a point of hunting down Surgebinders. Helaran could have trained Shallan without ever having a bond himself simply due to the knowledge available from a Herald.
Oudeis he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 Nalan would know enough about the Radiants that every Skybreaker should know, particularly if they make a point of hunting down Surgebinders. Helaran could have trained Shallan without ever having a bond himself simply due to the knowledge available from a Herald. We've had this discussion before. That's like saying a man trained to trap and kill bears would be equipped to raise one from a cub. There would be some overlap in the skillsets, but it's still a very weird thing for Taravangian to say if all he meant was, they must know enough about what not to let Radiants do to impart some incredibly basic training to a fledgling Radiant. Also, what exact training did he think Shallan had? She actually had almost none. Jasnah taught her practically nothing, not even how to Invest, before they were separated. What things does Taravangian suspect Shallan did, or is capable of, that he assumed she had to have been trained? Additionally, getting back to the point of the original post, my confusion about the whole event remains. The Skybreakers are trying to kill Radiants to prevent the Desolation. It looked like Helaran was trying to kill Amaram that day, slaughtering far more random soldiers than he had to simply to accomplish that task. Moreover, if he wanted Amaram dead, why hasn't there been another attempt in the intervening year? Nale doesn't strike me as the "give up" sort. Frankly, I think it more likely than anything else that Helaran wasn't actually working for the Skybreakers at the time.
hoser he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 The facts I'm aware of: Mraize says that Heleran sought out the Skybreakers Hoid met w/Heleran before visiting Shallan and her father. Hoid knows where and when he needs to be to make a difference, but doesn't know what he'll find or what he has to do. Heleran had Shardblade and later Plate Shallan's father commented about Heleran getting the blade from his "new friends" Shallan's father was with the Ghostbloods. Likely the obvious explanations are true Heleran may have been with the Ghostbloods, but then joined the Skybreakers, getting the Shards from them. Heleran committed wanton slaughter, but didn't seem abnormally fast or glowing to Kaladin, so he likely didn't have a spren bond. I still have questions: Mraize said Heleran sought out the Skybreakers. Did he find them? Did he find people who wanted to join the Skybreakers and try to kill Amaram to prove himself to the real Skybreakers? Seeking is not necessarily finding. Nalan/Darkness seems to operate quite differently than Heleran did when he attacked Amaram. I am not certain at all that Nalan was behind the attempted hit on Amaram. I also think that Mraize would be happy to mislead by implication or outright falsehood. Why did Hoid meet w/Heleran? To inspire him to attempt the assassination? To dissuade him? Some other matter entirely? 1
Oudeis he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 Minor point of clarification. Mraize says that Shallan's brother sought out the Skybreakers; she does have three others. I personally happen to believe he's talking about Helaran, but I'm trying to keep my mind open. You say Helaran didn't seem fast or glowing... he was on a horse, so he might not necessarily have looked fast since the horse was the one galloping. And he's enhanced by Plate at the very least, meaning his motions should have seemed faster than possible. Also, apparently Kaladin can walk into the middle of an arena filled with hundreds of people staring right at him, and get right up in the faces of five people, four of whom are specifically observing him because they want to kill him, and not a single person noticed the faintest glimmer. So... apparently you can be QUITE Invested without anyone noticing a glow. However, I also agree with you that he was unlikely to be a Radiant. Just pointing out the facts. I'm thinking about Helaran's mother. She wanted to kill Shallan for the crime of being an abomination. This sounds to me like the Skybreakers. So... now a whole slew of possibilities open up to me. Let's suppose she was a Skybreaker. Did Helaran seek them out because he knew she was one? Did he not even want to join, he just wanted to find the people his mom associated with? Let's say he found them. Did they know Shallan was a Surgebinder? Would they have told him? If he knew his mom wanted Shallan dead, wouldn't he have started to at least consider that the father killed the mother to protect Shallan? If he thought the mother was sick for wanting to kill Shallan, wouldn't he have a bit more sympathy for the situation? If he agreed with the Skybreakers, wouldn't he stop being so nice to Shallan? So... if the mom was a Skybreaker, and if Helaran did find them, we pretty much have to assume she didn't, or never had the chance to, tell the Skybreakers about Shallan. No other scenario I can think of is plausible (though I admit to human fallibility; maybe there remains a reasonable scenario I've yet to envision). I can imagine her being too embarrassed that she'd borne one of these monsters and wanting to handle it quietly, or maybe learning of the problem and grabbing a knife before she had time to write a note. So... did Helaran seek them because he wanted to join? Did he seek them because he just wanted to learn more about his mom? Was his mom even associated with the Skybreakers?
RawToast225 he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 I like that people latched onto my theory so well about him being bonded to a Sorenson well! As for the mother, what if she was part of the people who followed The Diagram? That would make sense as to why she would want to kill Shallan.
SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 I like that people latched onto my theory so well about him being bonded to a Sorenson well! As for the mother, what if she was part of the people who followed The Diagram? That would make sense as to why she would want to kill Shallan. I seem to have missed something. What in Damnation is a chulling Sorenson?
natc Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 That storming autocorrectspren must be at it again. 2
RawToast225 he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 You could not be more wrong. You could try, but you would not be successful.
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