Portland Signing 1/16

[Kipper]

I was trying to find similarities between Szeth and Elend as burning "fuel" goes.

[Oudeis]

I was trying to find similarities between Szeth and Elend as burning "fuel" goes.

 

Ah. I would be surprised. We're given to believe that there's a fundamental similarity between lerasium Mistborn and someone like Kelsier; one is simply a watered-down version of the other. But the difference between someone with an Honorblade and someone with a Nahel bond is a distinct fundamental change; Spren tried to emulate Honorblades. How perfectly? Through the same means?

 

It's still a good question.

[Kipper]

I checked a bunch of other threads that I started and am forced to conclude that as well.

Were there ever WoB on whether Honorblades are the physical manifestation of Honor?

[vineyarddawg]

 

That is pretty much what I said, except that the metal is not, in fact, a catalyst. It's confusing since I think he himself used the word catalyst, but a catalyst would remain unchanged by the reaction. If the metal were a true catalyst, you would never run out of metals. Even a flake of steel in your stomach would let through Preservation's power until it's broken down by your stomach or passed in processes unrelated to allomancy. That's not the case. I believe there's a term for something like this, something that behaves as a catalyst except for the fact that it is, in fact, used up in the chemical reaction, but I can't recall it.

The very phrase "duralumin burns up all the catalyst" should clue you in that it cannot, therefore, be a catalyst.

I'm not sure what point you're bringing up here? You don't directly address my point. I know that it's a connection to Preservation's power, I even mention that it's a connection to Presevation's power, but the fact remains that metal is "used up" to forge that connection, and this gives us two limits. One is how much of the metal you can burn as a function of time, and the other is the total limit of the mass of the metal. The model we have for duralumin shows that when one limit is manipulated, the other reacts accordingly; in order to gain more of Preservation's power as a function of time, you must more rapidly go through as much metal as you have. I believe there's a WoB out there about savantism which also pertains. He basically says that with practice and training, you're able to burn metals at a higher rate, and flare at a higher rate, to get more power. This is essentially what savantism is. Spook gets more power from his tin, but he has to gulp down enormous quantities of it to sustain the burn. More power, more metal.

So, as I propose, the current model for duralumin or savantism is that to gain more power, you need to burn through metal faster. Either lerasium Mistborn follow this model and Elend must burn through metals faster than Vin does, or they really are able to burn metal more efficiently than their successors, which would then give us a third metric by which to measure the power of allomancy, which would be enormously exciting.

Lastly, there's a WoB out there (which I will try to find) saying that Allomancy is like a waterwheel, that the power of Preservation flows to spin the wheel and produce energy but that doesn't diminish the river. Basically, you don't weaken Preservation, no matter how much Allomancy you do.

 

I know Sanderson is very scientific when creating his magic systems, but I think we're really doing in that first part of your argument is disagreeing over the exact definition of "catalyst."  I probably used the term incorrectly, and I'd even go so far as to say Sanderson probably used the term incorrectly, as well.  I can't speak for him, obviously, but the point was I was trying to really make is the idea of having a "gate" and a "pipe," where the actual allomancy is fueled by the "pipe" and the metal is the "gate," and the allomantic powers that you actually see can be affected by the size of the pipe and the size of the opening in the gate.

 

How it relates to your point is that I was saying that Elend might not have needed to burn metal at a higher rate than Vin. He might just be connecting to a bigger pipe, so he can open the gate the same amount (by burning the same amount of metal) and more power flows through the (allomantic) pipe.  (As soon as I type that, though, I realize that in the real world, the laws of physics don't work that way, but I'm presuming that the laws of Cosmere physics don't apply to allomantic powers in the same way they apply to water flowing through a pipe.)

 

I do agree on the savantism angle, that to become a savant you have to burn more metal longer than anyone else, but that doesn't apply to Elend, since he's connecting to a bigger pipe than anyone else.

 

I'd never heard the WoB about allomancy never actually draining Preservation's power, so that's good to know.  Guess Sazed just really doesn't want any TLR's.  

[Kipper]

I know Sanderson is very scientific when creating his magic systems, but I think we're really doing in that first part of your argument is disagreeing over the exact definition of "catalyst." I probably used the term incorrectly, and I'd even go so far as to say Sanderson probably used the term incorrectly, as well. I can't speak for him, obviously, but the point was I was trying to really make is the idea of having a "gate" and a "pipe," where the actual allomancy is fueled by the "pipe" and the metal is the "gate," and the allomantic powers that you actually see can be affected by the size of the pipe and the size of the opening in the gate.

Thanks for that terminology. That visual is going to help me out a lot when discussing Allomancy. I've just been saying "gate" and forgetting about the "pipe".

Edited January 14, 2015 by inexorablePanda

[Oudeis]

I know Sanderson is very scientific when creating his magic systems, but I think we're really doing in that first part of your argument is disagreeing over the exact definition of "catalyst."  I probably used the term incorrectly, and I'd even go so far as to say Sanderson probably used the term incorrectly, as well.  I can't speak for him, obviously, but the point was I was trying to really make is the idea of having a "gate" and a "pipe," where the actual allomancy is fueled by the "pipe" and the metal is the "gate," and the allomantic powers that you actually see can be affected by the size of the pipe and the size of the opening in the gate.

 

How it relates to your point is that I was saying that Elend might not have needed to burn metal at a higher rate than Vin. He might just be connecting to a bigger pipe, so he can open the gate the same amount (by burning the same amount of metal) and more power flows through the (allomantic) pipe.  (As soon as I type that, though, I realize that in the real world, the laws of physics don't work that way, but I'm presuming that the laws of Cosmere physics don't apply to allomantic powers in the same way they apply to water flowing through a pipe.)

 

I do agree on the savantism angle, that to become a savant you have to burn more metal longer than anyone else, but that doesn't apply to Elend, since he's connecting to a bigger pipe than anyone else.

 

I'd never heard the WoB about allomancy never actually draining Preservation's power, so that's good to know.  Guess Sazed just really doesn't want any TLR's.  

 

Ah. I think we were victims of a misunderstanding. Your post seemed to indicate by its tone that you disagreed with me, but most of what you said seemed in line with what I was saying, apart from your use of the word catalyst, so I thought you thought the metals actually were catalysts.

 

At first I hadn't understood your pipe analogy, but now I think I do, and I see we're still on the same page. Keep in mind, of the various ways we've seen for someone to get more power, no one has yet been able to "increase the size of the pipe." Like I said, it would be fascinating if we learn that each successive generation of mistborn hasn't simply slowed their rate of burn but actually became less efficient at burning their metals.

[Kipper]

Brandon did say here:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1526-effect-of-burning-lerasium/

that if a Mistborn ingested lerasium it would increase their power, which I assume to mean that it would modify the SpiritWeb in some way and "make the pipe bigger."

Sorry it's not pretty, I'm on a tablet.

[Oudeis]

That's pretty much what we're discussing, Panda.

 

...I'm sorry, but I don't like the analogy. It's hard to tell the difference between "the pipe being bigger" meaning you can burn more at once, versus a more efficient burn.

 

Basically, Panda, we know that a lerasium misting would be stronger in every individual metal. What we don't know is, by what mechanic will they be more powerful? Does it mean they'll have the capacity to burn metal faster? If you've got one car that can only go 60mph, and another goes 80mph, the second car is faster. But that doesn't mean it can go any farther, if going that fast just means it's able to burn more fuel. Whereas a car with a more efficient engine/design/etc will be able to travel further on the same tank of gas, because it gets more functionality out of the same amount of fuel.

 

So that's our question, the next step after the WoB you cited. Is a lerasium Mistborn just burning the metals faster, or is he also burning more efficiently? Is the amount of Investiture a gram of steel can grant a universal constant, or a factor of the individual Mistborn?

[vineyarddawg]

That's pretty much what we're discussing, Panda.

 

...I'm sorry, but I don't like the analogy. It's hard to tell the difference between "the pipe being bigger" meaning you can burn more at once, versus a more efficient burn.

 

Basically, Panda, we know that a lerasium misting would be stronger in every individual metal. What we don't know is, by what mechanic will they be more powerful? Does it mean they'll have the capacity to burn metal faster? If you've got one car that can only go 60mph, and another goes 80mph, the second car is faster. But that doesn't mean it can go any farther, if going that fast just means it's able to burn more fuel. Whereas a car with a more efficient engine/design/etc will be able to travel further on the same tank of gas, because it gets more functionality out of the same amount of fuel.

 

So that's our question, the next step after the WoB you cited. Is a lerasium Mistborn just burning the metals faster, or is he also burning more efficiently? Is the amount of Investiture a gram of steel can grant a universal constant, or a factor of the individual Mistborn?

 

I don't really know, but my original point was really that it wasn't about burning the metals, per se.  It's about their ability to draw on the stream of power that Preservation provides.  Hence, the bigger pipe.  In this analogy, they don't have to burn metals faster or more efficiently, because burning the metals at the same rate is "opening the gate" exactly the same amount. It's just that there's more power coming through.  If Elend burned duralumin (opened the gate all the way), he'd get a huge amount more power using tin, for example, than Vin would, even if had exactly the same amount of tin in their bodies.  It's not that he's burning tin more efficiently, because the tin is still completely consumed.  There's just more power coming down the pipe.

 

(Also, I grant that it's probably a bad analogy.  That's just the mental image that I got, for better or worse.)

[Oudeis]

See this is the problem. You say, "It's not about being more efficient, it's about more water coming out of the pipe." If you'll read what I say when I talk about efficiency... that's exactly what I'm saying it is. If more water comes out faster... I'm sorry I really don't like this analogy. I'm just going to talk about the power.

 

If Kelsier burns a gram of pewter and gains enough physical strength to lift 100kg, and Elend burns a gram of pewter and grains enough physical strength to lift 150kg... by my terms, that's Elend burning more efficiently. By your analogy, that's "more water coming out of the pipe." If I understand you correctly.

 

We know that's not how duralumin or savantism work. Neither of them allow for more efficient burns, that we know of. Duralumin simply burns it all at once; you're not getting a net gain in the power, you're just applying it at a much faster rate. Whereas savantism is sorta a midway; you burn the metal faster and gain more power, but not to the rate of duralumin. (There are also aspects of savantism that muddy the waters, like how Spook's body, mind and spirit seemed to physically adapt to make even better use of the power he was getting, like his dodgy trick in that battle. Those are interesting but not relevant to this discussion). The answer to this question will either give us strong evidence that the conversion rate from mass of metal into raw Investiture is a cosmeric constant, or will flat-out tell us that the rate is variable. Which would blow my mind.

 

Aaaand... I realize we've pretty well derailed this thread. How would you feel about moving to Mistborn (if we're going to continue at all, that is?)

[vineyarddawg]

Ahhhhhh... I got it, Oudeis.  (See that light bulb that just went on over my head?  )

 

I agree, I think we're on the same page. Your post helped me overcome my misunderstanding of the differences in our respective terminologies.

Edited January 14, 2015 by vineyarddawg

[Mailliw73]

Ask him what happened in Oregon since Megan hinted in Steelheart that it is now a wasteland. Seeing that the signing will be in Portland and we have no back story on what happened in Oregon (other than the one created by our lovely forum-mates), I'd like to see if he could expand on that. 

 

I would also love to see this. But I'm also terrified at the same time.

[Mailliw73]

If anyone gets the chance to ask one more brief question: When will we see the Cohesion and Tension surges?

[Dunkum]

That whole mistborn thread above reminded me of a question I had:

 

when doing a duralumin burn with another metal, say steel, how much does the amount of duralumin in your body affect the final strength of the burn?  what about the amount of steel? (if you want to/have time to get sligthly more technical, ask abotu doubling the amount of duralumin or steel or both)

[Oudeis]

Doubling the duralumin should have no effect, since duralumin has a constant burn and doesn't use itself up. Maybe if you flare duralumin, it compresses the power even more?

[Windreader]

... That's a lot of questions.

I'll probably ask about WalDo, when we'll see Cohesion and Tension, and Mraize's knickknacks.

[Kipper]

... That's a lot of questions.

I'll probably ask about WalDo, when we'll see Cohesion and Tension, and Mraize's knickknacks.

Sorry for destroying your thread, by the way.

[Argent]

I'll probably ask about WalDo, when we'll see Cohesion and Tension, and Mraize's knickknacks.

 

I really don't want to sound... negative in any way, but I know I will, so I am sorry in advance. It's much easier for me to tell you this upfront and then say exactly what I want to say, than to spend a much longer period of time trying to figure out how say that thing in the most convoluted, inoffensive, and polite way possible.

 

Asking about when we'll see Cohesion and Tension is, ultimately, a meaningless question - we'll see them when we see them. Knowing whether they will show up in SA3 or SA4 doesn't change anything in neither our knowledge nor our theories. 

 

So, if you are asking because you are curious - go ahead, I've nothing against that. But I wouldn't ask a question like this.

[Windreader]

Thanks for the input; I'm not entirely sure which questions I'll ask.

[Dunkum]

Doubling the duralumin should have no effect, since duralumin has a constant burn and doesn't use itself up. Maybe if you flare duralumin, it compresses the power even more?

Does it not use itself up?  A lot of the time when they burn duralumin, then drink a vial of metals the books specify that they need to replenish their duralumin.  Maybe I'm just missing somethign that is in the annotations or some such, but I got the impression that the duralumins and the other metal both burned up entirely.

[Kurkistan]

@Dunkum

 

It's a common misconception (one I held myself for some time), but in fact the duralumin is not necessarily all used up when you turbo-flare. There are a few scenes where we see this, but none so evident as when

 

Mistborn Spoilers (though it's probably too late at this point)

Vin is fighting Marsh in Fadrex: she dura!Burns two other metals in a row; all on one shot of duralumin.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Mailliw73]

I really don't want to sound... negative in any way, but I know I will, so I am sorry in advance. It's much easier for me to tell you this upfront and then say exactly what I want to say, than to spend a much longer period of time trying to figure out how say that thing in the most convoluted, inoffensive, and polite way possible.

 

Asking about when we'll see Cohesion and Tension is, ultimately, a meaningless question - we'll see them when we see them. Knowing whether they will show up in SA3 or SA4 doesn't change anything in neither our knowledge nor our theories. 

 

So, if you are asking because you are curious - go ahead, I've nothing against that. But I wouldn't ask a question like this.

 

Yeah, I meant that question as just a brief parting question or something of the sort. Nothing of importance, I was just curious.

[Dunkum]

@Dunkum

 

It's a common misconception (one I held myself for some time), but in fact the duralumin is not necessarily all used up when you turbo-flare. There are a few scenes where we see this, but none so evident as when

 

Mistborn Spoilers (though it's probably too late at this point)

Vin is fighting Marsh in Fadrex: she dura!Burns two other metals in a row; all on one shot of duralumin.

Thanks.  I remember them replenishing both the burned metal and duralumin a lot, so I'll have to take a look at that scene for comparison.

[Oudeis]

The very first scene with Duralumin, when she's burning it alone, it burns along for a while without boosting anything and doesn't burn itself out. Later, when she uses it for the first time with tin and pewter, she does use up both of those stores, and it's expressly stated that the duralumin didn't burn itself out. Every time she has to replenish, it's every metal but duralumin.

[A Joe in the Bush]

I'm back. I only managed to ask three questions:

 

 

Paraphrased

Me:

Was Hoid offered one of the Shards we know about.

Brandon:

You know, I can't remember which Shard I've shown you, Wait, no I haven't shown you that one.

Me:

Cool, do all shards have a number they're associated with?

Brandon:

Some do, (Most? Some?) don't. (I didn't get exact wording on this one.

Me:

Do all Epics go on Rendings?

Brandon:

It depends on how strong they are.