Feruchemical Zinc and Allomantic Atium

[Voidus]

You know, it made me start wondering : what happens if you are about to open the door while burning atium? Will you be able to see beyond the door before you open it? (since it would be opened two seconds later).

You might be able to see atium shadows of things before you open it but the door would still be there so you wouldn't just be able to see through it

[Aminar]

Atium doesn't grant xray vision. If somebody was going top open the door and walk out you could see as soon aa their shadow left the door though.(just read Vins escape from Kredik Shaw. One of the inquisitors surprises her by burning Atium and swinging his axe as she turns a corner.

As to guns. Even Semiautomatics pose a large problem for Seers not effectively using Pewter Iron and Steel. Steel is really thw best way to deal with gunfire. Just brace yourself and fling vevry gun in the building away. Until they star firing nonmetal bullets with nonmetal casings or make everything from aluminum guns are easy prey for an intelligent coinshot or lurcher with smart bodyarmor.

[name_here]

All evidence from the trilogy indicates Atium burners are essentially unkillable except by obtaining information from the future while they still have Atium. Not one single Seer or Atium-equipped Mistborn is in a situation that cannot be described as winning when fighting someone without Atium or Electrum throughout the trilogy aside from Zane, who died because Vin reacting to his actions produced a temporal paradox.

The main limiting factor on Atium is that it is rare and burns outrageously quickly. 90% of the production of the Pits for a thousand years was consumed by 200 Atium burners in a few hours. It is literally divine power made manifest, and all indications are that it essentially does make users invincible while in use. Massed automatic weapons might be able to take down a Seer but probably not a Mistborn by producing a situation where every location they can reach will be filled with bullets, but they're not going to go down to a single AK-47.

[Aminar]

It's implied that the Koloss took down several Seers without them running out of Atium. It's stated that Atium burners become dangerously arrogant while using Atium. It's suggested over and over again that Atium burners are still in danger while burning Atium. Divine power or no, Atium isn't nearly as infallible as you seem to think it is. Zane's death explains that well enough. This glimpse the future theory just doesn't add up. It's not a logical answer to Atiums use. Lastly, we're talking huge multipliers of a human braisn processing speed. The equivalent of cramming weeks of Feruchemical Zinc storage to manage the processing power you're implying Atium offers. I don't buy that Brandon, who makes his stuff pretty scientific, would just grant that kind of power. Deific or not, Atium does not make the bearer invincible. Amazingly hard to kill, yes, but invincible. No. That doesn't fit the story, the world, the tone, or Brandon.

[Senor Feesh]

Massed automatic weapons might be able to take down a Seer but probably not a Mistborn by producing a situation where every location they can reach will be filled with bullets, but they're not going to go down to a single AK-47.

I don't agree that this (highly) specific circumstance would be the only way. It's feasible that there would be other situations in which an atium burner would be unable to escape from harm. You require a situation in which the atium burner essentially cannot escape lethal harm. This could be achieved by multiple methods (I'm not particularly imaginative, but I can see a few Evil Genius Death Machines supplying the necessary conditions. I can only imagine how horrifying it would be for an atium user to see all their options ending somewhat abruptly (or for another atium user watching to see all the persons atium shadows die).

[Observer]

Anybody who's played a Touhou game will know that bullets can quite easily corner an Atium burner. Still, the point is that it's not the brain doing the dodging, it's all in the smooth muscles, the purpose or which is to avoid having to take them time to think. Also, don't forget divine powers

[Aminar]

Anybody who's played a Touhou game will know that bullets can quite easily corner an Atium burner. Still, the point is that it's not the brain doing the dodging, it's all in the smooth muscles, the purpose or which is to avoid having to take them time to think. Also, don't forget divine powers

The brain has to be involved somewhere or Atium literally cannot be controlled. The implications there are terrifying, because it means an Atium burner makes no choices while burning. Think on that for a bit.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

The brain has to be involved somewhere or Atium literally cannot be controlled. The implications there are terrifying, because it means an Atium burner makes no choices while burning. Think on that for a bit.

Thats the way Neurology and Philosophy is leaning. We do not really have free choice, but are an amalgam of habits and previous experience.

[Voidus]

I find it difficult to believe that Iron and Steel will become more useful than Atium, look at the other god metal Lerasium, hugely overpowered compared to the other metals but they're god metals they are supposed to be ridiculously overpowered. Is it difficult to believe that this could grant upwards of 10x cognitive processing speed? I don't think so. There are only three ways that have been revealed to kill a Seer, 1. Use them to grant yourself precognition (Vin vs. Zane) 2. Catch them in an unavoidable situation (Incredibly difficult without huge numbers, eg. Koloss) 3. Wear out their body to the point that increased reflexes are meaningless (This is how I believe the majority died in the fight against the Koloss.) I don't think that gunpowder is going to render Atium useless anytime soon, with the possible exception of if we find out that Atium has another ability, albeit a less obvious one. (Like Lerasium) but I doubt that, otherwise I can't see one of the god metals becoming completely obsolete and inferior to Iron and Steel.

EDIT: 500th post! WOOOOOOO

Edited September 10, 2012 by Voidus

[Observer]

Thanks for summing that up Voidus. Atium is a touch underpowered next to Lerasium, so I think the cognitive boos tof godliness might fix that in later years. A machine gun would probably keep them on the defensive, but I doubt it would make Atium obsolete.

EDIT: Gratz on 500!

Edited September 10, 2012 by Observer

[Aminar]

Thanks for summing that up Voidus. Atium is a touch underpowered next to Lerasium, so I think the cognitive boos tof godliness might fix that in later years. A machine gun would probably keep them on the defensive, but I doubt it would make Atium obsolete.

EDIT: Gratz on 500!

It should be underpowered compared to Lerasium. Lerasium is preservations as is Allomancy.

And Voidy-We are NOT having the physchology vs freewill debate again. I'll leave it at I don't buy your theory. Animals may be that way, but humans are more.

[Voidus]

And Voidy-We are NOT having the physchology vs freewill debate again. I'll leave it at I don't buy your theory. Animals may be that way, but humans are more.

Yeah I think we've all been over that one enough

It should be underpowered compared to Lerasium. Lerasium is preservations as is Allomancy.

I agree with this, it shouldn't be as powerful as Lerasium but neither should it only be as powerful as a regular metal. Lerasium provides a permanent effect I think that that alone is enough to overpower it, it doesn't matter how much increased brainpower you get from atium it's still going to be underpowered compared to that.

[Aminar]

Yeah I think we've all been over that one enough

I agree with this, it shouldn't be as powerful as Lerasium but neither should it only be as powerful as a regular metal. Lerasium provides a permanent effect I think that that alone is enough to overpower it, it doesn't matter how much increased brainpower you get from atium it's still going to be underpowered compared to that.

It's still far more powerful than most of the other metals, but it...

Think of it this way. Atium is only ever seen used for violence. The way you're describing it Atium will always use the deadliest option on those around you. It's cued up for combat and only combat if the mental speed isn't enhanced with the Atium sense(it really does work like Spidey Senses). While I can see Ruin doing that I don't think it works that way.

Spidey can dodge bullets, but focused practiced gunfire is an incredibly deadly force. Just think about the simplicity of the motions, how fast they can come for the damage done. I'm going to try something here, I'm going to write a scene from the view of a trained marksman hunting down a Seer.

I stepped through the door, following the piece of slime that had just tried to rob me. No way in Ruin I was letting him get away with it. I hefted my AR, clicking the twenty shot banana clip into place with the smooth proficiency I'd learned in the Terris Wars. He turned, saw me, and began to run. I raised my gun to a firing position but he was gone, out the door into the courtyard before I could get a good shot. Rust and Ruin do I hate being out of practice.

I stepped from the door a few seconds later. He was trapped. I raised my gun, only lingering doubts about the legality of what I was doing remaining. I fired, but he was moving before I'd even raised the gun, his motions too fluid, too skilled. For a second I debated if he was a thug, a pewter burner, but no. If he were a Thug he'd be in my face by now, taking the shot I could get off and then crushing me. The same would apply to any decent Feruchemist. That only left one option. He was burning Atium. A seer. Survivor's Coin Sack this was bad.

I knew what to do though. We'd all been trained in Mistborn fire patterns, specific patterns that would drive an Atium burner into a corner and trap them. First i fired at him, watching which direction he dove. He was fast, but I didn't need to move far, just rotate a little. I fired again, cutting off his initial escape direction. He dive beneath the bullet, obviously seeing what I had planned on doing. That dive didn't give him many options though. I fired a trio of rapid shots from the gun, the first forcing him to pop into the air midway through his roll, the next heading back and up at an agle and the last just a hair later just a hair higher. As I'd planned, the last shot clipped him the ankle. he dodged five more shots on that ankle before I clipped him in the hip and the blood loss got to him. From there he was easy pickings.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

It should be underpowered compared to Lerasium. Lerasium is preservations as is Allomancy.

And Voidy-We are NOT having the physchology vs freewill debate again. I'll leave it at I don't buy your theory. Animals may be that way, but humans are more.

Did I miss something?

[Aminar]

Now, this implies an unarmed mistborn. In a fight Atium offers numerous offensive options to disable this opponent, but the closer an unarmed Seer gets the less chance they have. The smaller the area the less dodging they can do. Guns require next to no time to fire, little time to reaim. I guess in a way they allow for a much simpler set of circumstances to pull a Vin v Zane situation because it's easier to spot the dodges and still have time to react.

[Aminar]

Did I miss something?

Yeah, several pages back the same debate happened. Nothing personal, it's just something I think everybody who's been in this thread doesn't want to happen again.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

Yeah, several pages back the same debate happened. Nothing personal, it's just something I think everybody who's been in this thread doesn't want to happen again.

Ahhh

[Aminar]

Ahhh

That and I mix up you and Voidus for obvious reasons... I thought you were the one in that argument with me when it was as him.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Now, this implies an unarmed mistborn. In a fight Atium offers numerous offensive options to disable this opponent, but the closer an unarmed Seer gets the less chance they have. The smaller the area the less dodging they can do. Guns require next to no time to fire, little time to reaim. I guess in a way they allow for a much simpler set of circumstances to pull a Vin v Zane situation because it's easier to spot the dodges and still have time to react.

True. Of course, the close the unarmed mistborn is, the more likely he is going to melee the gunner. And also, atium offers wonderful opportunities for shooting (if you also have a gun) - you can aim at where your opponent will be, and time exactly so he'd be shot as he emerges from cover.

As for the expanded mind - I think it is similar in effect to the mind expansion Vin has in the Well, or when becoming Preservation, just much smaller in scope, in other words, most of the processing goes through atium (Ruin), not brain, you just direct the process.

As for the permanent effect, I still think that ingesting atium makes you susceptible to Hemalurgy, or, in the case of Scadrial-born, more susceptible, becoming a better donor for spikes. Not very useful, that But that is just IMO.

[Aminar]

True. Of course, the close the unarmed mistborn is, the more likely he is going to melee the gunner. And also, atium offers wonderful opportunities for shooting (if you also have a gun) - you can aim at where your opponent will be, and time exactly so he'd be shot as he emerges from cover.

As for the expanded mind - I think it is similar in effect to the mind expansion Vin has in the Well, or when becoming Preservation, just much smaller in scope, in other words, most of the processing goes through atium (Ruin), not brain, you just direct the process.

As for the permanent effect, I still think that ingesting atium makes you susceptible to Hemalurgy, or, in the case of Scadrial-born, more susceptible, becoming a better donor for spikes. Not very useful, that But that is just IMO.

For sure. I'm not saying Atium is useless, just that sitting there and trying to be Neo dodging Bullets isn't a good plan. Guns are too efficient at Semiauto and automatic speeds, they will force the Seer into offensive action quite quickly or the seer will get hit(assuming competent trained marksmen.) The Seer, providing they have a gun, will be able to do amazing things. Equally armed, Seer verse normal dude, the seer wins. Now, Thug with machine gun versus seer with machine gun might cause problems for the seer, assuming the thug is willing to take a beating and likely die second while spraying down the Seer.

[Observer]

Unarmed Seer would last for a while, since there is no guarantee he'll go exactly where your fire pattern wants him to. Provided said seer has a gun, he'll beat almost anything, since he can shoot you without fear of getting hit. Remember, thugs die if hit in the head. One shot is all a seer needs, and the thug goes bye-bye.

[name_here]

The sense I got from all the scenes with Atium, plus its reputation as an unstoppable engine of doom to the point where even Mistborn who are on the wrong side of someone with more Atium are completely doomed, is that if there is any possible action available to an uncontested Atium burner that results in them surviving a situation they will know to take it. I wouldn't say that Atium can't be controlled, though. Vin opted to run through a room of Hazekillers without hurting any of them, and had no difficulty. It does seem to work via the conscious mind, because when Vin took Shan and Zane off-guard with unexpected future sight they froze up briefly.

The limiting factor on Atium has always been indicated as duration. I expect a Seer could in fact make like Neo... for about thirty seconds. Likewise, I'm pretty sure that's why Seers started dropping in the battle of the Pits: They ran out of Atium and turned into entirely normal partially-trained soldiers.

[happyman he/him]

I've said it before, but I think it deserves saying again: Atium enhances the mind. I suspect that it enhances the whole mind, even while leaving things like motivation, desire and emotion essentially unchanged. Thus, if you are in a fight and don't really want to die, Atium will help you achieve that goal. Since most of the time, most people have no intention of dieing and hang on to that belief with every action they take, Atium enhances your ability to do exactly that. It's quite natural, really. But if you decide that you don't want to kill, and if the folks you are fighting are no real threat to you anyway, Atium also enhances that understanding as well, and you survive with no trouble and no compulsion to kill. I don't really see a paradox. Nor do I see free will vs. determinism as relevant; enhancing the mind would not affect that relationship at all, if my understanding is correct.

As for my statement about Atium vs. guns, I suspect that guns make it somewhat easier to corner a Seer or Atium-burning mistborn. As others have noted, the speed of the bullets isn't what would do it; dodging bullets is probably not harder than dodging arrows. It's the fire rate and training needed that shifts the balance. Even in conventional warfare, the big advantage guns have over arrows is that you can shoot 100 rounds without even thinking and with minimal training. Each bullet actually does much less damage than each arrow. The same goes against a Seer; they may be able to sense where all the bullets are going to hit, but it is much easier for the opposition to get a few trained goons who can completely saturate an area with bullets during an ambush. Knowing that all possible futures lead to your death is not a terribly useful bit of info.

Edited September 10, 2012 by happyman

[Aminar]

The sense I got from all the scenes with Atium, plus its reputation as an unstoppable engine of doom to the point where even Mistborn who are on the wrong side of someone with more Atium are completely doomed, is that if there is any possible action available to an uncontested Atium burner that results in them surviving a situation they will know to take it. I wouldn't say that Atium can't be controlled, though. Vin opted to run through a room of Hazekillers without hurting any of them, and had no difficulty. It does seem to work via the conscious mind, because when Vin took Shan and Zane off-guard with unexpected future sight they froze up briefly.

The limiting factor on Atium has always been indicated as duration. I expect a Seer could in fact make like Neo... for about thirty seconds. Likewise, I'm pretty sure that's why Seers started dropping in the battle of the Pits: They ran out of Atium and turned into entirely normal partially-trained soldiers.

In close combat yes. The point being made is that guns easily outstrip the human bodies ability to move away from an attack. Atium maximizes what the body can do but when you need to move six feet for every inch the man with the gun needs to move an inch dodging becomes almost impossible.

I would like to know. How many of you are familiar with semiauto fire rates? There isn't a whole lot of work involved in forcing someone tobmove in specific ways. As soon as the seer is in the ir they're dead. You can only twist your body midair.

Given medieval tech Atium is godly. Guns are so incredibly deadly at this point that the only way to defend against them is to disarm or kill the opponent with the gun.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

In close combat yes. The point being made is that guns easily outstrip the human bodies ability to move away from an attack. Atium maximizes what the body can do but when you need to move six feet for every inch the man with the gun needs to move an inch dodging becomes almost impossible.

I would like to know. How many of you are familiar with semiauto fire rates? There isn't a whole lot of work involved in forcing someone tobmove in specific ways. As soon as the seer is in the ir they're dead. You can only twist your body midair.

Given medieval tech Atium is godly. Guns are so incredibly deadly at this point that the only way to defend against them is to disarm or kill the opponent with the gun.

The bolded, yes, specific to a seer but for the second I think you undervalue the precognition.

Unless it completely drops off the face of Scadrial, I'd think it would show up in the later trilogies and need to still be useful