Understanding surges from the names of Orders and science.

[Turos he/him]

I was trying to figure out the ten surges and what powers they could produce when I realized something. The names of each order generally seem to be made of two parts, each part in reference to the two surges with which it is affiliated. Since Brandon likes to base his magics on physics, specifically the surges, there are some assumptions we can also make from understanding the way matching science principles work in reality.

 

The surges and their scientific principle affiliations, as I undertsand them:

 

Adhesion: Suction cups work using adhesion. They create a vacuum between the suction cup and the surface they are attached to. On Earth, there are almost fifteen pounds of air pressure per square inch on you at sea level. Did you know the only thing holding a suction cup to the surface is the amount of pressure on the air outside of it? Because of this, suction cups do not work in the vacuum of space. Technically, the higher Kaladin flies, the less effective his adhesion becomes.

 

Gravity: Changing the warp on space-time. In reality, the more mass your possess, the more you warp both space and time around you, affecting everything else nearby. Planets have so much mass, they make any distortions between people and objects, etc inconsequential as far as noticing any differences. Also, the more gravity you have pulling on you, the slower you proceed through time. Satelites broadcasting time for clocks on Earth are under less gravity and thus are passing through time relatively slower than us. Their clocks have to be set slower so that they tell time at the appropriate speed when the signal reaches Earth. If you were to somehow survive at the edge of the black hole in our galaxy, time on Earth would fly by at amazing speed. That requires a heck of a lot of G's, though. I'm not sure how much difference lashings would cause for the purposes of doing what a bendalloy or cadmium bubble can do.

 

Division: Dividing complex substances down into basic elements makes sense to me. Any chemical reactions that result such as smoke and heat make sense here.

 

Abrasion: Friction is the resistance of two materials sliding against each other.

 

Progression:No comment.

 

Illumination: No comment other than sound and light, both affected by this surge, are wavelengths. There is an interestings relation between waves and quantum physics. I don't understand enough about that to really explain it, but it is an interesting idea, though I doubt it will be affected by the surge.

 

Transformation:No comment.

 

Transportation: No comment.

 

Cohesion: Cohesion is what makes like substances hold together. I am not super familiar with this, but as far as water goes, cohesion is what makes molecules of H2O stick together in pools and puddles and drops. More specifically, it is the attraction they have to each other inside of a mass of water.

 

Tension: Tension, aka surface tension, in water is similar to cohesion, but is specific to the attraction of water molecules to each other and not with other molecules. Tension has a tighter pull than cohesion.

 

 

The names of Willshapers, Stonewards and Bondsmiths are what interest me most.

Willshapers and Stonewards have access to Cohesion. From the names, 'willshaper' and 'stone' make me think most of cohesion. It sounds like they can actually manipulate matter in form, probably only matter consisting of one element at a time. 'Stone' seems plentiful enough in Roshar. I wonder how the Shin people reacted to them.

 

Stonewards and Bondsmiths have Tension. Bonsmiths can use Adhesion, which is probably where 'bond' comes from in their name, leaving 'smith' which doesn't seem like an Adhesion thing. My opinion of cohesion was that it is used to shape things. That's what smiths do. They manipulate metal to form jewelry and armor and weapons and tools, etc. However, Bondsmiths don't possess cohesion.

 

Stonewards, particularly the 'wards' part, remind me of shields. Wards block against damage. Smiths make shields. Shields and armor are very tension-like, keeping things out and away. Did these Radiants turn objects into armor? Just think of how strong that armor would be if you fashion large sections together using Adhesion.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Turos Stoneward

[Incheoul]

Tension and surface tension are two different things.  While the surge could be related to surface tension, i find it unlikely as surface tension is more about the net effect of adhesion and cohesion which are two other surges.

 

Division probably has to do with the breaking of bonds which could result in chemical reactions in a solution or actually changing a chemical entirely..  Or maybe it'll just be used to break stuff.

 

Also, an interesting thing about friction is that it is a force acting in the opposite direction of whatever item is sliding across the surface of another item.  It'd be interesting to see the surge be used to increase the frictional force rather than lowering it to glide on the floor.

[Turos he/him]

Ah, I need to learn more about tension then. Thanks!

 

And true, I don't think Lift was ever shown making herself more abrasive. That would be useful.

[Oudeis he/him]

Suction cups do NOT operate under the principle of adhesion... adhesion is a chemical bonding of two dissimilar substances. Glue works by adhesion. Suction cups would fall under Abrasion, as the vacuum is simply creating a force holding the two objects together physically (not chemically) and friction does the rest.

[Turos he/him]

That makes sense. Where did I get the idea that the surge of Adhesion was related to pressure? I can't remember.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

That makes sense. Where did I get the idea that the surge of Adhesion was related to pressure? I can't remember.

 

Probably from the WoR Ars Arcanum, which refers to Adhesion as "The Surge of Pressure and Vaccuum"

[sanderfan she/her]

In the Ars Arcanum in WoR, it says that Adhesion is the surge of Pressure and Vacuum.

 

Edit: Ninja'd

 

I would also like to note that's probably why when Kaladin was flying around on the Plains that he didn't notice the air thinning or something like that because he was probably using Adhesion to mess with the air pressure so he'd have enough air. Sorry if that didn't make sense, but I think it was mentioned in a WoB somewhere. 

 

Edit: Found it

QUESTION

For a Windrunner, if he had enough heating fabrials and enough Stormlight, how high up could he get?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You could exit orbit. Windrunners, remember they're gravitation and pressure. So if he knew what he was doing, we have actually factored how long it would take to get to the various moons. 

So somehow Windrunners can use Adhesion to control the air pressure around them.

Edited January 3, 2015 by sanderfan

[Turos he/him]

Yep, sounds right. Adhesion probably isn't the best term for this surge then. For appearance purposes, though, it is the same.

[Incheoul]

Suction cups do NOT operate under the principle of adhesion... adhesion is a chemical bonding of two dissimilar substances. Glue works by adhesion. Suction cups would fall under Abrasion, as the vacuum is simply creating a force holding the two objects together physically (not chemically) and friction does the rest.

This is really just nitpicking but adhesion doesn't have to be a chemical bond. The force that sticks a drop of water to the side of a glass is an adhesive force.

[king of nowhere]

I don't think we know how adesion works. suction produces adesion, but chemical bonds also do, and we don't know what causes it in a radiant. a good experiment would be to try to use the adesion surge under vacuum and see if it still works.

 

As for going to the moons, that does not prove a radiant can get the air to stick aaround them. it's just as likely that they calculated how much it would take a radiant to reach the moons assuming he had a pressure suit on him, or maybe stormlight can keep him alive in the vacuum (he doesn't need to breath, after all, and the lack of outside pressure would be uncomfortable but not fatal in the short term, and probably within stormlight healing capabilities).

[Turos he/him]

Woah. Space Radiant, with propulsion fabrials!

[Oudeis he/him]

An interesting thought... can you Lash in space? When you're so far from any planet that "gravity" is an infinitesimal tug, if you Lash yourself in any one direction, will you only be going that fast? Would it take a thousand lashes before you started to notice the movement?

 

Is Stormlight spent based on the force, or number of lashes? Does it cost x amount of Stormlight to Lash once, 6x to Lash six times? If it's simply by the actual force applied, no problem, you might have to think "lash lash lash" for several minutes straight, but you wouldn't have a fuel problem. If there's a flat fee just to do any Lash at all, you'd run out of Stormlight before you moved three inches.

 

Or is it that you can do a single Lash to any degree of gravity, it's just that people on Roshar are naturally inclined to default to Rosharan standard? Or since the arcana comes from something invested in the planet, is any Basic Lash going to default to Rosharan standard? If Kaladin were to Worldhop to the Earth-analogue that is Scadrial and tried to Lash Wayne upwards, would he end up with a net upwards force of .4G? (Or that number might not be exactly accurate, depending on which of several possible models handle the nitty-gritty of Lashings...)

[Kurkistan he/him]

I don't think we know how adesion works. suction produces adesion, but chemical bonds also do, and we don't know what causes it in a radiant. a good experiment would be to try to use the adesion surge under vacuum and see if it still works.

Good question! RAFO!

 

Source:

Q: Would a full lashing work in a vacuum? If not, is that because it works by creating a vacuum between the lashed objects?!: 

 

Brandon: First, good question. The way lashings work, it does have to do with pressure. But I can't go into it. I'm going to have to RAFO that one. Again, good question.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Kurkistan

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

Re: Gravity and its affect on time.  I agree its unlikely any Surgebinder could use the Gravity surge to achieve the same kind of temporal affects that cadmium and bendalloy mistings achieve.  However, I am curious to find out if Lashings could be used to disrupt mistings' time bubbles, with the alteration of the mistings' gravity throwing off their own temporal manipulations.  Even just a little disruption could be a big deal to a misting who'd gone their whole life gaining expertise in using their time bubbles so much they're practically instinctual.  Someone like Wax who's used to using his time bubble in combat comes up against a Windrunner like Kaladin who uses the Gravity surge against him, and suddenly his time bubble isn't slowing things down as much as he's used to or was expecting....could be quite problematic. 

[Turos he/him]

[Dunkum he/him]

The amount you would have to change gravity to even be able to notice the time dilation on a human scale is immense, though perhaps slightly less in a situation where someone is already manipulating time.  A windrunner in a highstorm (and thus theoretically not running out of stormlight any time soon) might be able to manage it, but at that point, the direct effects of the gravity manipulation would have made a lot more difference.  If I am thinking this throught correctly, a person in a higher gravity field would experience time running more slowly for them than it would outside (i.e. 10 yrs near the event horizon of a black hole might be thousands of years for someone on earth), so it replicates the effect of a cadmium bubble.  Pretty sure if you wanted to try to cancel a bendalloy bubble by increasing gravity (that is: simulating a cadmium bubble) you would be able to, not because of time dilation, but because the increased gravity had crushed the allomancer generating the bubble in the first place.

[Incheoul]

I rescind my previous statements and now agree with this guy.

[thecatinthehat]

I was trying to figure out the ten surges and what powers they could produce when I realized something. The names of each order generally seem to be made of two parts, each part in reference to the two surges with which it is affiliated.

I'd follow that track, but go in a slightly different direction.

Each Order's name consists of two parts: the noun part and then the verb part. Say the two refer separately to two associated surges.

In fact we've only seen three different Orders in action:

1. Windrunners

Element: air

Attributes: protecting, leading

Purpose: protectors

Surges: adhesion (wind) and gravitation (run)

Spren type: honorspren

2. Skybreakers

Element: smoke

Attributes: just, confident

Purpose: judges

Surges: gravitation (sky) and division (break)

Spren type: ?

3. Dustbringers

Element: fire

Attributes: brave, obedient

Purpose: ?

Surges: division (dust) and abrasion (bring)

Spren type: ?

4. Edgedancers

Element: crystal

Attributes: loving, healing

Purpose: healers (?)

Surges: abrasion (edge) and progression (dance)

Spren type: ? (Wyndle is one)

5. Truthwatchers

Element: plant

Attributes: learned, giving

Purpose: spies (?)

Surges: progression (truth) and illumination (watch)

Spren type: cryptics (?)

6. Lightweavers

Element: blood

Attributes: creative, honest

Purpose: artists

Surges: illumination (light) and transformation (weave)

Spren type: cryptics (liespren in particular)

7. Elsecallers

Element: oil

Attributes: wise, careful

Purpose: scholars

Surges: transformation (else) and transportation (call)

Spren type: cryptics (?)

8. Willshapers

Element: metal

Attributes: resolute, builder

Purpose: supporters (?)

Surges: transportation (will) and cohesion (shape)

Spren type: ?

9. Stonewards

Element: stone

Attributes: dependable, resourceful

Purpose: constructors (?)

Surges: cohesion (stone?) and tension (ward?)

Spren type: ?

10. Bondsmiths

Element: flesh

Attributes: pious, guiding

Purpose: mediators (?)

Surges: tension (bond?) and adhesion (smith?)

Spren type: ? ("specific" spren, e.g. the Stormfather)

So far we've seen three Surges being extensively used:

Adhesion (The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum)

· creates adhesive force, gluing objects together

· is accessed by Bondsmiths and Windrunners

Gravitation (The Surge of Gravity)

· creates gravitational force, pulling an object towards another

· is accessed by Windrunners and Skybreakers

Illumination (The Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms)

· creates illusions, changing appearance of an object

· is accessed by Truthwatchers and Lightweavers

Another four were used by PoV characters:

Abrasion (The Surge of Friction)

· manipulates frictional force, faciliating sliding on a surface or sticking to it

· is accessed by Dustbringers and Edgedancers

Progression (The Surge of Growth and Healing, or Regrowth)

· manipulates growth, accelerating it, enables healing others

· is accessed by Edgedancers and Truthwatchers

Transformation (The Surge of Soulcasting)

· enables turning one substance into another

· is accessed by Lightweaving and Elsecallers

Transportation (The Surge of Motion and Realmatic Transition)

· enables quick traveling, probably by teleportation

· is accessed by Elsecallers and Willshapers

And there are three that we know almost nothing of:

Division (The Surge of Destruction and Decay)

· it might be able to separate fragments of an object

· is accessed by Skybreakers and Dustbringers

Cohesion (The Surge of Strong Axial Interconnection)

· it might be able to alter plasticity or shape of an object; this one is somehow confirmed

· is accessed by Willshapers and Stonewards

Tension (The Surge of Soft Axial Interconnection)

· it looks like a concept similar to Cohesion: maybe enabling one to manipulate elasticity or stiffness of an object, or maybe its density

· is accessed by Stonewards and Bondsmiths

The pondering could be slightly easier if only we knew more about the orders of Skybreakers, Dustbringers, Willshapers, Stonewards and Bondsmiths. I could try to focus more on that, but I'll need a reread of at least some fragments (especially, the pre/interludia and Dalinar's visions).

[Turos he/him]

Interesting take on bondsmiths. It's completely backwards from what I thought each part matched with, but makes sense in a cool way.

[Paragrin she/her]

That got me thinking about word-salading the orders, and I came up with orders made up of jackets, sculptors, spinning fairies, and people who always have tickets reserved for them.

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

Hmm... I'm pretty sure I read in the Ars Arcanum that Gravitation actually operates on the principles of some sort of Realmatic gobledegook. You're not creating new gravity, instead you're just changing an object's "spiritual connection" with the planet.

Edited January 6, 2015 by mckeedee123

[Turos he/him]

That's true. I kept hearing him say how he organized magic often based on science, so it's fun to imagine how far that link goes, lol.