Shallan's Powers

[happyman]

I really like the idea that the Shardblade appeared after his death and cut the Soulcaster. When I first heard that theory, I felt it was going a step too far, but given the points name_here made, it seems like a much more likely scenario.

I would add that to some folks, killing someone with a shardblade seems nigh impossible, but this is not true. It is only nigh-impossible if the person you are attacking expects to be in danger and has ten heart-beats of awareness before the danger becomes fatal. At home with family, it's easy to imagine getting a lucky blow in without the person noticing they are in danger, especially if the attack isn't premeditated.

[name_here]

Also, having a Shardblade doesn't actually provide that much protection. Although a Shardblade will generally slice through an attacker's weapon and kill the wielder, it provides no special protection against arrows or attacks from behind. So even if he had summoned it, possibly to kill Nan Balat, who apparently suffered heavy injuries from a beating at about the right time, Shallan could still easily have killed him with a knife in the ribcage from behind. Then the Blade could have dropped from his hand and sliced the Soulcaster before puffing into mist. There's definitely a time lag between dropping it and it vanishing, because one that got dropped during the Chasmfiend fight cut a groove into the plateau before vanishing.

I am reasonably sure the inciting event was a near-fatal beating of one of Shallan's brothers. It seems like it would take something pretty extreme for Shallan to grab a knife and stab anyone, much less immediate family. One might wonder why she feels so guilty for killing in defense of others and why she couldn't support it under any moral theory except "ends justify the means", but patricide has historically been considered among the worst possible crimes almost regardless of any mitigating factors.

Edited August 31, 2012 by name_here

[Dahak]

I am reasonably sure the inciting event was a near-fatal beating of one of Shallan's brothers.

While I doubt it has any relevance we do know of a group of nobles with a habit of near-fatal beatings of their children, elsewhere in the cosmomere. To be precise the Lord Ruler's nobles did it to attempt to Snap their offspring.

It just seemed mildly odd that the man who seems at the nexus of several unusual magics and conspiricies should be acting in a way which might suggest he was attempting to awaken Allomancy in his children.

All coincidence I'm mostly sure.

[Windrunner]

I'm really sure that it's a coincidence. The Davar children aren't from Scadrial. They don't have the right sDNA to access Allomancy, they have no fragment of Preservation within them. If Shallan was genetically from Scadrial, I seriously doubt that she'd be Surgebinding either.

[Aeshdan]

I'm really sure that it's a coincidence. The Davar children aren't from Scadrial. They don't have the right sDNA to access Allomancy, they have no fragment of Preservation within them. If Shallan was genetically from Scadrial, I seriously doubt that she'd be Surgebinding either.

Not necessarily. Surgebinding works by forming bonds with spren, which are attracted based on your actions. Dna, of either mundane or magical sorts, does not have to be involved.

I officially like the idea that House Davar are Scadrialians. Furthermore, I'm going to propose that the stress of killing her father Snapped Shallan, but that she doesn't realize this yet because she hasn't been eating metals recently.

[Shivertongue]

Not necessarily. Surgebinding works by forming bonds with spren, which are attracted based on your actions. Dna, of either mundane or magical sorts, does not have to be involved.

I officially like the idea that House Davar are Scadrialians. Furthermore, I'm going to propose that the stress of killing her father Snapped Shallan, but that she doesn't realize this yet because she hasn't been eating metals recently.

I hope you are joking.

I really, really hope you are joking.

That is a level of ridiculous I have yet to see anywhere else on this board. Just because someone beats their children does not mean they are doing for any reason other than that they are an abusive jackass with anger management issues. Parents beat their children on Earth; does that mean that, unknown to us, we are from Scadrial, and thus millions of emotionally abused children have now snapped and awakened Allomantic powers?

Let me answer that for you. No. No they haven't.

There is nothing, anywhere, in any of the Mistborn books nor in Way of Kings to indicate that Shallan's family originated on Scadrial. The idea itself is so absurd and utterly asinine, that I can't believe I bothered to take the time to type out a response.

And I won't even get started on the ludicrous notion of Shallan being an Allomancer.

[Windrunner]

Not necessarily. Surgebinding works by forming bonds with spren, which are attracted based on your actions. Dna, of either mundane or magical sorts, does not have to be involved.

But it probably does have to be involved. Every other single magic system we've seen so far involves some sort of genetic component. Allomancers and Feruchemists are obvious and Brandon has hinted that Hemalurgy wouldn't work on just anyone either, without the proper genetics.

CHAOS (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadrial?

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008)

To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codes, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.

Source

AonDor is definitely genetic. All mentions of people using Dakhor or ChayShan have been of Fjordell and Jindoeese people respectively.

ZAS

After several more signings, I asked my other question. "Do people in the Comsere, besides Nalthis, have Breaths?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"No." He then signed a person's books, then said "To elaborate a little more, that's not to say they don't have a life force, because they do. But if someone not from Nalthis were to suddenly gain the ability to become an Awakener, they could not use what they have to Awaken something. That's not to say that they can't receive breaths though."

Source

Here, Brandon's implied that the ability to Awaken is a trait distinct to the people of Nalthis. Not anyone who was simply endowed with Breath could use it. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that using Surgebinding requires, at the very least, sDNA from Roshar.

Surgebinding has a connection to Honor and possibly Cultivation. If Shallan had Preservation and Ruin inside her all sorts of crazy crap should be happening when she's bonding part of Honor and/or Cultivation to herself. Look at what a few human attributes did to a person. And they were only containing parts of Shards that the people who became koloss already had within themselves.

Also, House Davar is said to be an ancient one. They've been around for a while. But unless they've been bringing people from Scadrial with them to breed with, then the Allomancy sDNA would have been diluted long ago. Also Roshar has such wildly crazy genetics that it may be that someone from Scadrial couldn't have a child with someone from Roshar. Also, trace metals could have ended up in her system as well. (Although not necessarily, if she's a misting of a rare alloy) I think you have nowhere near enough evidence to believe this theory to be true, all you've got is an abusive father, which as Shivertongue pointed out, proves nothing.

[Riddlesinthedark]

But it probably does have to be involved. Every other single magic system we've seen so far involves some sort of genetic component. Allomancers and Feruchemists are obvious and Brandon has hinted that Hemalurgy wouldn't work on just anyone either, without the proper genetics.

AonDor is definitely genetic. All mentions of people using Dakhor or ChayShan have been of Fjordell and Jindoeese people respectively.

Here, Brandon's implied that the ability to Awaken is a trait distinct to the people of Nalthis. Not anyone who was simply endowed with Breath could use it. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that using Surgebinding requires, at the very least, sDNA from Roshar.

Surgebinding has a connection to Honor and possibly Cultivation. If Shallan had Preservation and Ruin inside her all sorts of crazy crap should be happening when she's bonding part of Honor and/or Cultivation to herself. Look at what a few human attributes did to a person. And they were only containing parts of Shards that the people who became koloss already had within themselves.

Also, House Davar is said to be an ancient one. They've been around for a while. But unless they've been bringing people from Scadrial with them to breed with, then the Allomancy sDNA would have been diluted long ago. Also Roshar has such wildly crazy genetics that it may be that someone from Scadrial couldn't have a child with someone from Roshar. Also, trace metals could have ended up in her system as well. (Although not necessarily, if she's a misting of a rare alloy) I think you have nowhere near enough evidence to believe this theory to be true, all you've got is an abusive father, which as Shivertongue pointed out, proves nothing.

The difference in world-magics does pose the question of why Kaladin can learn to light-bend, though.

[Windrunner]

Hmm, by "light-bend" do you mean Lightweaving? I don't think that Kaladin can learn to do that, unless you've seen a quote that says otherwise? Manipulation of light is listed by Teft as a Radiant ability, so I've always assumed Light to be a Surge, like Gravity, Pressure, and Travel. Brandon mentions Lightweaving in the Stormlight Archive. We've probably already seen Hoid do it when he tells the story of Derethil and the Wandersail. The Radiant illusion magic probably works in a very similar way to Lightweaving too, as Brandon says that when two of his magic systems have a power in common, they both do things in the same way. Like how Regrowth and gold Feruchemy heal people in the same way. (At least according to the description) They aren't the same system though, simply an identical power. I doubt, unless it's stated elsewhere, that Kaladin will learn the Radiant equivalent of Lightweaving, both of his Surges have been identified. Did I misunderstand you?

[Riddlesinthedark]

Hmm, by "light-bend" do you mean Lightweaving? I don't think that Kaladin can learn to do that, unless you've seen a quote that says otherwise? Manipulation of light is listed by Teft as a Radiant ability, so I've always assumed Light to be a Surge, like Gravity, Pressure, and Travel. Brandon mentions Lightweaving in the Stormlight Archive. We've probably already seen Hoid do it when he tells the story of Derethil and the Wandersail. The Radiant illusion magic probably works in a very similar way to Lightweaving too, as Brandon says that when two of his magic systems have a power in common, they both do things in the same way. Like how Regrowth and gold Feruchemy heal people in the same way. (At least according to the description) They aren't the same system though, simply an identical power. I doubt, unless it's stated elsewhere, that Kaladin will learn the Radiant equivalent of Lightweaving, both of his Surges have been identified. Did I misunderstand you?

Yes, nomenclature wrong.

IIRC, there was a WOB quote that said someone in WoK had the potential to learn Lightweaving. So when Hoid gave Kaladin the flute, I took that as an indication

[Aeshdan]

I hope you are joking.

I really, really hope you are joking.

That is a level of ridiculous I have yet to see anywhere else on this board. Just because someone beats their children does not mean they are doing for any reason other than that they are an abusive jackass with anger management issues. Parents beat their children on Earth; does that mean that, unknown to us, we are from Scadrial, and thus millions of emotionally abused children have now snapped and awakened Allomantic powers?

Let me answer that for you. No. No they haven't.

There is nothing, anywhere, in any of the Mistborn books nor in Way of Kings to indicate that Shallan's family originated on Scadrial. The idea itself is so absurd and utterly asinine, that I can't believe I bothered to take the time to type out a response.

And I won't even get started on the ludicrous notion of Shallan being an Allomancer.

Of course this is utterly ridiculous! This is 17thShard!

[Windrunner]

That doesn't mean we get to abandon all logic. Sure this is a fictional universe, but it is one with rules that make sense. You're setting too much store in coincidence. This is the equivalent of me realizing that both Vin and the Alethi race have dark hair, and determining that since Vin is part noble, then the whole noble class of Scadrial came from Roshar and that the only reason they can't use Surgebinding is because they are so dishonorable in their actions.

Come to think of it, people who are descended from Returned have odd hair colors and so do people on Roshar. Does this mean that they are related? No it doesn't. The saddest part is that I have exactly the same amount of evidence for both those ridiculous propositions as you have for yours. At least Dahak admitted that this was probably a coincidence. Why does this theory even appeal to you?

In other words, we're not Mistborn, we need to make at least a little bit of sense.

[Senor Feesh]

I'll admit I've not read through all 4 pages of this thread, so apologies if this has already been said.

It's been argued that because Shallan's Memories don't require a Stormlight infusion, it's not a surge. Does this power NEED to be a surge? Is it possible that the 10 types of Surgebinders get their Investiture from Honor, but the Memories, as a power of Cultivation, would require a different focus/power source?

Feel free to shoot me down; I'm still pretty new here and there's bound to be people with a better understanding of these things than me.

[Aeshdan]

That doesn't mean we get to abandon all logic. Sure this is a fictional universe, but it is one with rules that make sense. You're setting too much store in coincidence. This is the equivalent of me realizing that both Vin and the Alethi race have dark hair, and determining that since Vin is part noble, then the whole noble class of Scadrial came from Roshar and that the only reason they can't use Surgebinding is because they are so dishonorable in their actions.

Come to think of it, people who are descended from Returned have odd hair colors and so do people on Roshar. Does this mean that they are related? No it doesn't. The saddest part is that I have exactly the same amount of evidence for both those ridiculous propositions as you have for yours. At least Dahak admitted that this was probably a coincidence. Why does this theory even appeal to you?

In other words, we're not Mistborn, we need to make at least a little bit of sense.

I was trying to just be silly and supportive of loony theories. Sorry about it coming off too weird.

[happyman]

Yes, nomenclature wrong.

IIRC, there was a WOB quote that said someone in WoK had the potential to learn Lightweaving. So when Hoid gave Kaladin the flute, I took that as an indication

Since there are at least five orders of Knight's Radiant we know nothing about, and since Brandon has stated that many of the important characters in the saga have come on-stage already, I wouldn't read too much into that detail just yet. He may well be meant to give it to somebody else.

[Shivertongue]

I was trying to just be silly and supportive of loony theories. Sorry about it coming off too weird.

It's not that it came off too weird, it's that you didn't present it in the proper "loony theory" format. I was convinced that you honestly believed what you were saying, and not that you were positing something you knew to be absurd.

Don't feel bad; it takes a lot of practice and dedicated effort. One cannot just throw something crazy out into the ocean of tiny glass beads and expect it to turn into a elephant-salmon. Loony theorizing is serious business, and it isn't for everyone.

[Aeshdan]

Loony theorizing is serious business, and it isn't for everyone.

It's been ahobby of mine for some time, even on this forum. Witness my theory that Navani is really *Ssssssh*.

[Patillian]

"She carried a concealed weapon that she hadn't used. She felt foolish for not even getting it out that night." p560

"...Before she could consciously think of what she was doing, she was struggling with her sleeve, trying to get the Soulcaster out. It was the only thing she had resembling a weapon. No, that was stupid. She didn't know how to use it. She was helpless. Except... Storms! she thought, frantic. I can't use that. I promised myself. She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act." p643, both hardcover

Also I'll eat my numbered first edition if Shallan did not kill her father. The theme is repeated so often, unless they are obtusely subtle, with nary an example of misdirection. It might have been partly accidental, but she did one or several actions that lead directly to her father's death/murder. (Not that I mourn him, its obvious that he was incredibly abusive to his kids)

I just read the book for the third time and noticed that Shallan had a Shardblade. The above quotes are very clear I think, and I wondered how I missed it the first time. However, there is one more quote even earlier that first clued me in. It is pg 151 in the paperback edition. It is immediately after Shallan's second attempt to become Jasnah's ward when Jasnah is impressed by her letter and promises to accept Shallan at a later date after she gets more training. Shallan stops in a garden spot right outside the Conclave to think about how she can't wait that long and her past.

"As always, thinking of her father made her ill, and the pain started to constrict her chest. She raised her freehand to her head, suddenly overwhelmed by the weight of House Davar's situation, her part in it, and the secret she now carried, hidden ten heartbeats away."

I was startled to see this obvious reference, and it made those later references with the thugs in the alley and the creepy, twisty-head spren stand out even more.

It also mentions in the preceding paragraph that her oldest brother had "vanished" a year ago and that her father had "declared him dead." That wording, "declared," specifically implies the father has knowledge of what happened. I think that the oldest son was involved in some sort of trade/cost for either/or the soulcaster or Shardblade. I also think Shallan somehow killed her father and then inadvertently claimed the Shardblade that appeared in an attempt to hide the evidence.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Patillian

[Senor Feesh]

I just read the book for the third time and noticed that Shallan had a Shardblade. The above quotes are very clear I think, and I wondered how I missed it the first time.

I also didn't notice these until my second read-through. That first quote 'a secret hidden ten heartbeats away', I think is easy to miss as at this point in the story we have limited experience of Shardbearers (I think we've only seen Szeth's PoV, and I don't recall now if that sequence mentions the ten heartbeats required to summon, at least not explicitly - I'd have to read the passage again).

[CrazyRioter]

um...Dalinar and Adolin both had POVs, and the ten heartbeats thing was mentioned very early in Dalinar's POV chapters.

[name_here]

IIRC, the entire first part, the one with the death quotes, contained no Dalinar or Adolin chapters at all. I am entirely certain Kaladin's first bridge run happened before any of their chapters, because I know I hadn't reached details on gemhearts at that point, and gemhearts are mentioned in the very first chunk of Dalinar/Adolin chapters, that being the Chasmfiend hunt. Shallan's whole becoming Jasnah's ward drama happens before that point in the book.

[Zas678]

It also mentions in the preceding paragraph that her oldest brother had "vanished" a year ago and that her father had "declared him dead." That wording, "declared," specifically implies the father has knowledge of what happened. I think that the oldest son was involved in some sort of trade/cost for either/or the soulcaster or Shardblade. I also think Shallan somehow killed her father and then inadvertently claimed the Shardblade that appeared in an attempt to hide the evidence.

My idea is that the brother isn't vanished- he's the Shardbearer that Kaladin killed. The timeline matches up, and there's Ghostblood involvement in both cases. Plus, I think this is the "Adonalsium-like death" that we fans could figure out. Someone's got an official theory on it. I'll see if I can find it.

Here it is! It's Cheese Ninja's theory.

[Observer]

Ah yes, I was wondering when that theory would return to the playng field. I like the idea of him being the Shardbearer, and it further connectes the story characters through Ghostblood interests.

[HokieBry]

A few people in this thread have theorized about how Shallan's family's Soulcaster was sheared/broken. The type of break in the Soulcaster makes it sound like it could have come from a Shardblade. What people have surmized is that Shallan's father had a Blade, and it fell out of his hand and sheared through the Soulcaster. I just finished a re-read of the book, and if my memory serves me correctly, didn't Shallan mention that her father's advisor (I forget his name) was the one who used the Soulcaster?

[name_here]

No, he knew how to, or at least claimed he did. Her father actually had it on him.