Stormlight to Breath Ratio: Official Answer

[Gamma Fiend]

So last month, I ordered a signed & personalized copy of Way of Kings off of Brandon's site, and I asked my question I've been wondering since the release of WoR:

 

Q: "What is the ratio of Stormlight to Breath?"

I received the book in the mail today and I have an answer! (Or most of one)


A: "Much more Stormlight, but most can't be used."

 

So it's nice to know that it requires "much" more Stormlight than breath for the Ratio, and the 'most can't be used' part seems to me like he's referring to spheres. Which also could make sense, as I doubt chips or clearmarks or what have you would be quite sufficient. I'm thinking at least Broams or maybe even Gemhearts! O.o

Of course, Broams or other highest-denomination spheres would seem most plausible, for Zahel being able to constantly stay refilled on stormlight. Unless he's just going off slaying chasmfiends during his free time. >.<

Edit: And the book is a First Edition! I requested for it, but didn't think they would still have any! Nifty!

Edit 2: Added picture!

Edited December 20, 2014 by Gamma Fiend

[Blaze1616]

I have a feeling that the "most can't be used" is in reference to a requirement to convert. For instance, if Vasher is trying to use Stormlight as his weekly Breath, he has to use 20 [units] of Stormlight. Of the 20 [units], though, 17 of them are consumed to fuel the conversion, and the last 3 are actually useable.

 

Great question!

[Pathfinder]

Since Kal and Szeth could absorb stormlight from a highstorm while it is happening to continually surgebind, wouldn't it make more sense for Zahel to stand outside during a storm to absorb as much stormlight as he needs rather than trying to get his hands on enough gems that have enough stormlight for him to absorb? Though during the weeping he would definitely need to stock pile. 

[Edgedancer]

Since Kal and Szeth could absorb stormlight from a highstorm while it is happening to continually surgebind, wouldn't it make more sense for Zahel to stand outside during a storm to absorb as much stormlight as he needs rather than trying to get his hands on enough gems that have enough stormlight for him to absorb? Though during the weeping he would definitely need to stock pile. 

Depends on wheter or not he can hold the Stormlight, if it leaks out of him just like it does with Kal and Szeth he won´t be able to hold it from one Highstorm to the next and he would glow, which is a pretty big give away.

[the winter system]

Maybe he's all cool and goes "Your light to mine, your light becomes mine," the same way he retrieves Breath?

[RawToast225]

People with extra breaths give off a sort of glow anyway. Vasher has had the 5 th heightening automatically, but he manages to hide it. He can probably hide his stormlight well enough.

[Edgedancer]

People with extra breaths give off a sort of glow anyway. Vasher has had the 5 th heightening automatically, but he manages to hide it. He can probably hide his stormlight well enough.

Breath tecnically doesn´t glow but creates an aura, Stormlight inherently glows, because its... well light, so unless Vasher can perfectly hold Stormlight, which I´m pretty sure he shouldn´t, there´s gonna be a glow. And I think he could only supress his divine Breath, afterall he still has an Aura later on, but I would have to check my sources again.

[Pathfinder]

Well there is mention in the book that voidbringers could hold stormlight perfectly. Although it is a stretch and there is absolutely no evidence to prove this, I think it could be a logical leap to say if Zahel/Vasher was knowledgeable enough about breaths to create nightblood and the overpowered lifeless (forgot what they were called), and was knowledgeable enough to worldhop AND convert the native power system to fuel him, then he would be knowledgeable enough to hold stormlight perfectly. But again, it is a leap of logic. 

[Edgedancer]

Well there is mention in the book that voidbringers could hold stormlight perfectly. Although it is a stretch and there is absolutely no evidence to prove this, I think it could be a logical leap to say if Zahel/Vasher was knowledgeable enough about breaths to create nightblood and the overpowered lifeless (forgot what they were called), and was knowledgeable enough to worldhop AND convert the native power system to fuel him, then he would be knowledgeable enough to hold stormlight perfectly. But again, it is a leap of logic. 

We know that there are better ways to hold Stormlight than the human body, for example gemhearts. However Breath is already "sticky" by nature, so I don´t think the process of becoming Returned would do anything to improve your capability to hold Stormlight to a perfect level, it might increase it and from what we know the glow of Stormlight might still pierce his skin, even if he can hold it, at least that would explain why full Radiants still glow brightly, still both of those are only guesses. Not sure if technique alone could help with holding Stormlight, if the vessel is imperfect.

 

You mean Kalad´s phantoms, the bones encased in stone armor?

Edited December 17, 2014 by Edgedancer

[Pathfinder]

Yep, it has been a very long time since I read warbreaker, so I could be remembering that Vasher was the one that made them incorrectly. We did not know that other power systems could be powered by other power systems on other worlds till WoB that told us as much, so there is not anything conclusive saying that having a expansive knowledge of investiture and how it works would not enable Vasher from finding a way to hold stormlight perfectly in his body, but we also have absolutely nothing saying that it could. Just a thought to throw out there. 

Edited December 17, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Redbird]

As a returned, he is a splinter of endowment, so maybe that allows him to hold storm light in better than someone with less innate investiture.

[WeiryWriter]

As a returned, he is a splinter of endowment, so maybe that allows him to hold storm light in better than someone with less innate investiture.

 

Technically this is incorrect, as a Returned he /holds/ a Splinter of Endowment, in the form of his divine Breath.

[gjustice99]

So how do we measure stormlight? Is there a unit of measurement for measuring it?

[Voidus]

So how do we measure stormlight? Is there a unit of measurement for measuring it?

Denomination of spheres would be the closest but even then we don't know how accurate it is.

[Paragrin]

And what I really want to know is whether there's more Light in a broam, or a broam's worth of chips.

[sanderfan]

I don't really know, but I feel like there'd be more in a broam's worth of chips. I'll try to explain.

So we know that cut gems hold more stormlight for longer than uncut gems. From the two seconds of research I did, I think one factor might be surface area. I'm assuming cut gems would have more surface area than uncut ones, and if that's completely wrong, ignore the rest of this post.

Anyway, I think it's also safe to assume that a broam's worth of chips have more surface area than the broam itself, and if we say the amount of stormlight a gem can hold is directly related to the surface area of the gem, then we could conclude that  a broam's worth of chips would hold more stormlight than a broam due to the difference in surface area, or at least hold the same amount of stormlight longer.

(I did next to zero research on this, so please tell me if I totally messed something up)

[Gamma Fiend]

This is where Sizgil was smashing his head into a chasm wall, trying to figure out how to measure stormlight. How much of a difference does the size of the gem in the middle matter for how much stormlight there is? What about the leak-rate of stormlight? How can we measure how much stormlight a sphere loses over time?

I was kind of hoping to get a number for the Ratios, but figured that was way too much to actually expect, because if we could get a solid ratio number, then that would really help understand the differences between other forms of Investiture.

Also, I do fear that we may need to find a way to quantify stormlight before we can even try getting a number for breath equivalent. So we need to start determining what type of Units we want to measure stormlight in. (I have seen a couple discussions about this going on already, but since this thread is sort of related, I wouldn't mind if the conversation continued spilling over in here.

 

@Blaze: That's a good interpretation of what Brandon might mean there. It would make sense that a majority of the Investiture would end up getting used or wasted in the conversion process of turning it from Stormlight into Breaths.

I guess the question I should have asked was how much Stormlight does Zahel need to consume every week to stay alive.

[Moogle]

Regarding gem cut, I don't think it's about surface area. The gem cut determines what sort of spren you can capture inside a gem, based on the pattern Stormlight makes when filtered through it. The gem cut may also influence the clarity of the gem - the more "pure" and clear the gem is, the more Stormlight it can hold. (A gemstone with a perfect canonical color is equivalent to a perfect alloy from Mistborn.)

 

As to the "most can't be used comment", I don't think it has to do with converting Stormlight to Breath. If this were how Vasher were powering himself, he'd a) have an easy way to become the God King and wouldn't still be on Roshar, since he dislikes it more than Nalthis. He'd just become a second God King, and every thousand years or so take a quick vacation to Roshar. (To save space I won't go crazy on Realmatic speculation.)

 

I think it might have something to do with how Stormlight leaks, but Breath doesn't really leak in the same sense, but I'm not sure. When you Lash an object, Stormlight leaks from it, but when you Awaken an object, it can keep going for (effectively for the purposes of discussion) forever.

 

It may also have to do with the inefficiency of powering one system with a differing Investiture. For example, Ruin could power Allomancy, but Preservation was better at that. Breath may be particularly awful/good at powering other systems, and Stormlight not. (Or vice versa?)

 

This is particularly cryptic, even by Brandon standards.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Incheoul]

It makes sense to measure by spheres IMO. Yes, it's not entirely accurate, but neither is breath. The innate breath from every single person from nalthais is not exactly the same. The heightenings are just rough estimations of how much breath it would take.

[Blaze1616]

I do not think knowledge alone could cause Vasher to be better at holding Stormlight. He is still human, and all humans, that we have seen, have not been capable of holding Stormlight perfectly. It probably has to do with the species'/individual's make-up, which in the Cosmere means their Spiritual aspect (I do not think it is Cognitive); their sDNA in particular. This could mean Vasher is more efficient at holding Stormlight due to holding the splinter, but I do not think that is the case, because Moogle's scenario of Vasher taking "vacations" to Roshar would actually be plausible then.

 

As to the "most can't be used comment", I don't think it has to do with converting Stormlight to Breath. If this were how Vasher were powering himself, he'd a) have an easy way to become the God King and  wouldn't still be on Roshar, since he dislikes it more than Nalthis. He'd just become a second God King, and every thousand years or so take a quick vacation to Roshar. (To save space I won't go crazy on Realmatic speculation.)

 

I do not find your proposed scenario very plausible unless Vasher is capable of perfectly holding Stormlight. As we all know, Stormlight leaks. Even if Vasher absorbs an entire Highstorm's worth of Stormlight, and we assume he is more efficient, but not perfectly efficient, at holding the Stormlight, I do not think it would last him all that long. I am confident that he would lose more per week than he "eats," probably even more per day. 

 

But even if such a plan were plausible, he would still be stuck on Roshar. Stormlight, as has been pointed out, is actually light. The aura one gets from achieving the Tenth Heightening is not an actual glow, but a color bending aura [source]. If he were to return to Nalthis with his huge stockpile, he'd be an anomaly, because he would actually be glowing. In fact, unless there is a planet other than Roshar where people have the ability to glow, he is stuck on Roshar, or risks being feared/worshiped. 

 

Even on Roshar, though, it is unusual for someone to glow, so he would need to be in seclusion if he felt he needed to hold large quantities, and that is assuming he can get access to such a large quantity. Stockpiling gems would be odd, and standing in a Highstorm is deadly (even if he can survive, we saw what happened to Mr. Stormblessed's PR when he survived). It is simply much easier to deal with small quantities of Stormlight every week, and to hold a job in which he has easy access to such quantities, even during the Weeping.

 

 

It may also have to do with the inefficiency of powering one system with a differing Investiture. For example, Ruin could power Allomancy, but Preservation was better at that. Breath may be particularly awful/good at powering other systems, and Stormlight not. (Or vice versa?)

 

I would argue that this is, essentially, what it means for the extra Stormlight to be a "fuel" or "cost" to convert, you are merely calling it an inefficiency.

 

One possibility that no one has mentioned is that there might be different types of Stormlight that we don't know about, similar to how there are two types of Breath. If you interpreted "most can't be used" as "most [stormlight] can't be used," it would seem he is referring to there being different kinds of Stormlight. I find it a highly unlikely possibility, though.

 

 

It makes sense to measure by spheres IMO. Yes, it's not entirely accurate, but neither is breath. The innate breath from every single person from nalthais is not exactly the same. The heightenings are just rough estimations of how much breath it would take.

 

I think that using spheres is far more inaccurate than the unit of Breath. Given the drastic amount of variables, I don't think it is a plausible unit at all.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Blaze1616

[Incheoul]

What other practical way is there to measure stormlight in world?

[Pathfinder]

Well my line of reasoning was that since he needs to "eat" breath, he would go out into a storm, absorb stormlight, most lost in conversion, with the remaining held perfectly to sustain him X number of breaths till he has to go back out into the storm due to what he consumed. If we are assuming a lot is lost in the conversion process, then it would be difficult to maintain his disguise, and go around stealing or draining spheres all around him near constantly. I realize all I say is conjecture, and if there are in book points that would dispute that, I will totally go along with it. I was just writing this to hopefully further clarify my initial statement. 

[Blaze1616]

What other practical way is there to measure stormlight in world?

 

Exactly. There really isn't, in my opinion. I personally like luminescence, but the problem with that is whether there is a threshold, and if the luminescence increases with each unit of Stormlight (it might not is the issue). The purest way to measure, as with any of the magic systems, is based on raw investiture, but we simply can't do that given the current books, nor is that possible in world until they become very Realmatically aware.

 

The reason using chips won't work is because the gems within the currency are not standard. They could all have different cuts, and as a result each hold varying amounts of Stromlight. No two diamond chips are the same. If Roshar were advanced enough to have standardized the currency it would be the perfect way to measure, but there is no evidence suggesting that they have, and given their technology level I do not think they even have the capability to.

 

I have a feeling though that your post meant that if there is no better way, we default to the use of currency. Perhaps that is the case, but I feel that if we can't be more precise, we should not bother until we can. I think that using gems is simply too imprecise, that it is not worth our effort. We need more scientific data from Brandon, which I believe we will get once Sigzil starts testing his Squire powers.

[Moogle]

I do not find your proposed scenario very plausible unless Vasher is capable of perfectly holding Stormlight. As we all know, Stormlight leaks. Even if Vasher absorbs an entire Highstorm's worth of Stormlight, and we assume he is more efficient, but not perfectly efficient, at holding the Stormlight, I do not think it would last him all that long. I am confident that he would lose more per week than he "eats," probably even more per day.

 

Perhaps you're misinterpreting what I mean - I mean, the Stormlight literally becomes Breath. Vasher takes Stormlight, and converts it into Breath. Breath does not leak, so he can slowly convert more and more Stormlight into permanent Breath (except for the Breath he eats). I don't think this is possible, for the reasons given in my post.

 

But even if such a plan were plausible, he would still be stuck on Roshar. Stormlight, as has been pointed out, is actually light. The aura one gets from achieving the Tenth Heightening is not an actual glow, but a color bending aura [source]. If he were to return to Nalthis with his huge stockpile, he'd be an anomaly, because he would actually be glowing. In fact, unless there is a planet other than Roshar where people have the ability to glow, he is stuck on Roshar, or risks being feared/worshiped.

 

Stormlight is gas, actually:

Q:  I know that there's three sorts of forms that magic presents itself in, the liquid and the solid and air. What would Breath be?

A:  Breath is definitely like Mist, it is in the form of the air.

Q:  And is Stormlight the same?

A:  Stormlight is the same. Good questions!

(source)

 

The aura you get from Stormlight is said to be the Stormlight leaking from your skin, so it's not an actual glow. Breath, too, is not an actual glow. When Vin takes in the mists, the mists begin to leak from her skin too. This is a common pattern; when you take in gaseous Investiture, it leaks from your skin.

 

If he returned to Nalthis with a hundred thousand "Breaths" converted from Stormlight, he could just hide them like he hides his Divine Breath.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Blaze1616]

 

Perhaps you're misinterpreting what I mean - I mean, the Stormlight literally becomes Breath. Vasher takes Stormlight, and converts it into Breath. Breath does not leak, so he can slowly convert more and more Stormlight into permanent Breath (except for the Breath he eats). I don't think this is possible, for the reasons given in my post.

 

...

 

Stormlight is gas, actually

 

...

The aura you get from Stormlight is said to be the Stormlight leaking from your skin, so it's not an actual glow. Breath, too, is not an actual glow. When Vin takes in the mists, the mists begin to leak from her skin too. This is a common pattern; when you take in gaseous Investiture, it leaks from your skin.

 

If he returned to Nalthis with a hundred thousand "Breaths" converted from Stormlight, he could just hide them like he hides his Divine Breath.

 

I did completely misinterpret you. My apologies. Unfortunately for me, that misinterpretation caused me to write a long post for no reason, haha. Anyways, the concept of actually changing the form of investiture is an interesting one, though like you I do not think that's what is happening.