Magic systems worthy of Brandon

[Trizee]

As we all know, one of the best parts of Brandon's books are the original and cool magic systems he uses in them. So I was wondering- what other books have you read that have magic systems worthy of Brandon?

I've personally have found this only in Daviv Farland's Runelords, with the endowments system. Basically, you can give and endowment of a certain trait to someone, bt then you lose that trait. For example, if you give an endowment of glamour to somebody, he becomes increbidbly beautiful, but you become just as ugly. In the Runelords world, people use this to become superhumans.

So, do you agree with me about Runelords, and what other books have you read with awesome magic systems?

[Aethling]

I really liked the color based magic in The Black Prism. Instead of being catalyst like in Warbreaker, the colors themselves become physical and are used for everything from making grenades to building graceful structures. This is currently my favorite non-Sanderson.

Early on, Jordan is heading toward an elemental based magic in his Wheel of Time, but he veers away from it and goes to a more gender based one. The elemental system becomes submerged. They still talk of weaves, but the focus becomes lost (at least to me).

Elenium/Tamuli has a magic system where the powers come from gods through prayers.

Mazalan's magic comes from different warrens. It becomes something like a faucet you can tap into and let go. I have only read the first 2.5 so far, but it is intriguing.

The Sword of Truth series has additive and subtractive magic, but the main character that spends most of his time not being able to use his magic for one reason or another.

[Riddlesinthedark]

I love that Brandon Sanderson writes a sort of "Hard Fantasy", where magic systems are fairly rigid and outlined versus the more mysterious magic of Tolkein, the Narnia books, Harry Potter,co (maybe GoT?). Nothing against those, its nostalgic and traditional sort of witchcraft and wizardry realm, just diversity in the genre, imo.

In that vein, past authors who have had similar systems.

Le Guin, oldest laid-down magic system I've ever read. It might be because our hero is a wizard, versus other books where magic is around.

David Eddings, especially in the Belgariad. I felt like the Elenium/Tamuli was much less so, but YMMV.

Robert Jordan, Sex and mildly elemental based. Aethling, I think some of the lessening emphasis on elementals aspects was just power creep by the main POV characters.

That was just off the top of my head, surely many more.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Voldy

[Yados]

I've personally have found this only in Daviv Farland's Runelords, with the endowments system. Basically, you can give and endowment of a certain trait to someone, bt then you lose that trait. For example, if you give an endowment of glamour to somebody, he becomes increbidbly beautiful, but you become just as ugly. In the Runelords world, people use this to become superhumans.

You might want to reverse your wording in the title there as Farland was one of Sanderson's writing teachers at BYU.

[Cracknut]

Every magic system from Kingkiller Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss. Especially Sympathy.

Malazan's magic system looks pretty cool so far. Finished second book last week.

[JamesW]

Every magic system from Kingkiller Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss. Especially Sympathy.

Malazan's magic system looks pretty cool so far. Finished second book last week.

Malazan's magic system is very well thought out, however the limits of the power aren't as readily available to the reader to understand. I loved the books but I wouldn't say that the system is one that is "Worthy" of brandon, just because of the tendency for power creep among the users of the magic. Perhaps it's only because I have read the series in it's entirety twice that I feel that way. I will say that the different warrens having different abilities is very thorough, but the extent of what makes one "powerful" with those warrens isn't very well defined. You have characters like Mallet, who has access to Denul and can heal pretty well, but we know that Quick Ben also has access to that warren, but he isn't seen using it, yet is regarded as exceptionally powerful as mages go.

As a caveat to that statement, the magic of Otaratal is the most well thought out in my opinion. It has defined limits, explicit benefits and a cost (Monetary, the source being limited and controlled).

[Cracknut]

Malazan's magic system is very well thought out, however the limits of the power aren't as readily available to the reader to understand. I loved the books but I wouldn't say that the system is one that is "Worthy" of brandon, just because of the tendency for power creep among the users of the magic. Perhaps it's only because I have read the series in it's entirety twice that I feel that way. I will say that the different warrens having different abilities is very thorough, but the extent of what makes one "powerful" with those warrens isn't very well defined. You have characters like Mallet, who has access to Denul and can heal pretty well, but we know that Quick Ben also has access to that warren, but he isn't seen using it, yet is regarded as exceptionally powerful as mages go.

As a caveat to that statement, the magic of Otaratal is the most well thought out in my opinion. It has defined limits, explicit benefits and a cost (Monetary, the source being limited and controlled).

I don't know much about it yet so... Though what I liked most were Warrens. They're like alternate universes, except they represent only one part of real world(darkness, chaos, etc). It may be worldbuilding though. And I thought there was two types of magic. One that Priests use, that comes from their god, beliefs and prayers. Other one that comes from Warrens and is used by Mages. Or something like that...

Edited August 21, 2012 by 213

[JamesW]

Every form of magic in the series (Barring Otaratal) is based in the warrens. There are theories espoused by certain characters within the novels as to the origin of the warrens, but they are oft disputed or misinterpreted. Without going into spoilers, I'll let you know that each god (or most of the gods) is the "king" or lord over a particular warren. Each god is attuned to that warren, and the means of access is varied. In the first book we meet Hairlock, who traverses the warrens and basically goes insane because of his dabbling in chaos. Characters can physically enter the warrens, which are realms in and of themselves. They can also channel the power of the warren, basically opening the warren and allowing some of the power to flow through them (This is how the illusionists create illusions, and how healers access Denul, or how some mages channel fire in attacks).

I don't believe that priests have a separate type of magic, they just ascribe the power they access via warren to that given to them by their god. Some gods don't allow people to access their warren, though some can do it anyways. The relationship between priests and their gods is explored a great deal later on in the series, and is more of a compact between the two (Midnight Tides to be exact).

[Cracknut]

Every form of magic in the series (Barring Otaratal) is based in the warrens. There are theories espoused by certain characters within the novels as to the origin of the warrens, but they are oft disputed or misinterpreted. Without going into spoilers, I'll let you know that each god (or most of the gods) is the "king" or lord over a particular warren. Each god is attuned to that warren, and the means of access is varied. In the first book we meet Hairlock, who traverses the warrens and basically goes insane because of his dabbling in chaos. Characters can physically enter the warrens, which are realms in and of themselves. They can also channel the power of the warren, basically opening the warren and allowing some of the power to flow through them (This is how the illusionists create illusions, and how healers access Denul, or how some mages channel fire in attacks).

I don't believe that priests have a separate type of magic, they just ascribe the power they access via warren to that given to them by their god. Some gods don't allow people to access their warren, though some can do it anyways. The relationship between priests and their gods is explored a great deal later on in the series, and is more of a compact between the two (Midnight Tides to be exact).

I had idea of gods being 'kings of warrens' but I wasn't sure because there are gods like Rope and I'm not sure what kind of Warren God of Assassin would have. Especially if Shadow and Death both have been taken... Warren of Assassins? Nah, I'll find out that myself. Thanks.

[Observer]

Every magic system from Kingkiller Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss. Especially Sympathy.

+1 for Kingkiller! I love to think of the reaction of people when they see the "NO SYMPATHY" signs...

[Tamzin Ashevai]

There aren't any other magic systems worthy of Brandon's. Of all the fantasy fiction series I've read (and those I've yet not), Brandon's systems of magic have been and remain the most innovative of any author I've read. I look forward to new plant life, new spren! I look forward to new languages and translations! I look forward to the increased explanations of controversial characters like Szeth, etc.! As I've stated previously, I can hardly wait for the next installment of The Stormlight Archive!

Edited September 12, 2012 by Tamzin Ashevai

[MasterGhandalf]

Hmmm... Brandon is basically the king of "hard" magic systems, I would say, but there are several writers working right now who are doing somewhat similar things. Seconding Weeks and Rothfuss, and Erikson's warrens are definitely cool (though I wish, as with so much about his books, that he wasn't so apparently allergic to explaining things rather than having the reader figure everything out). Jim Butcher has some cool ones, particularly Furycrafting from his Codex Alera books, and if I can bring in a YA author, Garth Nix is very good at this too (love his interpretation of necromancy in his Old Kingdom series).

[TalenelStonesiniew]

Erickson's magic system is undervalued here. It is more subtle than just warrens. Later on you learn about the Holds. In addition, there are Elder Warrens which are immune to the affects of Otataral. In addition, you have the warlock based magic as first laid out in Chain of Dogs, which is really a more elemental/shamanistic/spiritbinding form of magic. The solution to keeping Chaos at bay by Anamander Purrake/Draconus is pretty elegant. Last but not least, you have the Soultaken and the D'ivers as well as the unique properties of both Icarium and Karsa Orlong.

[skaa]

One of my favorite hard scifi authors, John C. Wright, once diverted from his usual genre and wrote a fantasy trilogy called Chronicles of Chaos. The magic system is pretty complex. Each magic user belongs to one of six races that determine what kind of magic the person can use:

• The Dark are intuitive magic users whose abilities are powered by their desires. They can gain superhuman strength just by willing it, for example, and can even transform into animals. The Dark are strong against the Nameless but are weak against the Fallen.
   
• The Fallen are spell casters who can summon spirits to do their bidding. Their magic is non-intuitive, and they have to study their art (e.g. read grimoires, learn magic rituals, memorize the True Names of things, etc.) before they can use it. The Fallen see the Dark as just another race of spirits and could therefore control them using spells, but they are powerless against the purely mechanical Lost.
   
• The Lost are basically self-learning artificially-intelligent robots with telekinetic powers. They can manipulate the forces of nature and can even modify their techno-organic bodies, but these abilities need to be learned first (just like the Fallen). They consider the Fallen's spirits to be just glorified voice-activated appliances that they can forcibly disable. The Lost are bound by the laws of Classical Mechanics, though, and are incapable of handling the incredibly complex powers of the Nameless.
   
• The Nameless are multi-dimensional beings that can intuitively extend their bodies into any number of spatial dimensions (although it gets more difficult the higher they go). They can also sense and manipulate abstract concepts like free-will, purpose, usefulness, and moral obligations. The Nameless can directly manipulate three-dimensional physical objects (e.g. the bodies of the Lost) through higher dimensions, but they lose all multi-dimensional powers when confronted by the Dark.
  
  The first four races above are called the Houses of Chaos. There are two other races that have a hybrid sort of magic:
   
• The Phaeacians combine the powers of the Dark and the Lost. They have a limited power to change certain details of the past. They can also detect when they are being watched, no matter what method was used.
   
• The Olympians combine the powers of the Fallen and the Nameless to manipulate fate. Each Olympian has total control of one aspect of the future (e.g. Mavors, the God of War, can dictate the result of any battle, and can never lose in direct combat). They can also locate and monitor any person that becomes entangled into one of their prophetic declarations.

What I like about this magic system is how it connects magic with philosophy. Each of the four Houses of Chaos represent a certain paradigm of thought. The Dark think they are omnipotent and that reality is just an illusion. The Fallen believe both in the spiritual and physical realms, and that all living things (including spirits) are bound by metaphysical laws. The Lost only believe in the deterministic physical laws of Newtonian Physics, having an utterly materialist philosophy. The Nameless, able to create their own metaphysical laws and exist in their own physical dimension, are complete relativists.

In the story, the main characters learn to advance in their magical skill by getting advice from the paradigm that defeats theirs. For example, a Lost character teaches a Fallen character how to treat spirits as computers: once he learns the "machine language" for all these "computers," he can directly control any spirit with ease. Basically, the main characters help each other out to become the best in their respective magical paradigms, which I think is pretty cool.

As I said, it's a bit complicated, and it sometimes feels like you're reading science fiction (especially when the Lost and the Nameless characters start talking), but I loved it. The reason why I like Mistborn so much is that the interaction between the three philosophically-different Metallic Arts kinda reminds me of this series.

Edited May 26, 2013 by skaa

[Cracknut]

Erickson's magic system is undervalued here. It is more subtle than just warrens. Later on you learn about the Holds. In addition, there are Elder Warrens which are immune to the affects of Otataral. In addition, you have the warlock based magic as first laid out in Chain of Dogs, which is really a more elemental/shamanistic/spiritbinding form of magic. The solution to keeping Chaos at bay by Anamander Purrake/Draconus is pretty elegant. Last but not least, you have the Soultaken and the D'ivers as well as the unique properties of both Icarium and Karsa Orlong.

+1 for D'ivers. Erickson's magic system is awesome but he can't be compared to Sanderson IMO. Erikson has a lot of stuff going on but he's magic systems lack exact rules and limitations.

[Salmakia]

The magic system/s in the Kingkiller Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss is very interesting! It's been a while since I read one of the two books, but I remember one system being based on two objects, which were linked together. The stronger the link (e.g. a candle and fire, both of which have a flame) the more effective the spell was. The caster of the spell could manipulate what happened to the second object by affecting the state of the first - after creating a link between the two, of course.

[Spreadness]

There aren't any other magic systems worthy of Brandon's. Of all the fantasy fiction series I've read (and those I've yet not), Brandon's systems of magic have been and remain the most innovative of any author I've read. I look forward to new plant life, new spren! I look forward to new languages and translations! I look forward to the increased explanations of controversial characters like Szeth, etc.! As I've stated previously, I can hardly wait for the next installment of The Stormlight Archive!

you need to read runelords.

I just halfway through the first book, and I'm telling you (as a brandon sanderson fan!) - in terms of magic system and it's implications over the world/settings, I've NEVER read anything close to what I'm reading now. especially the implications/consequences of that magic. thus said, I'm by no means saying that this book is better then the way of kings (its not...) but there are some pretty insane ideas weaved in there.

moreover: judging from the fact that the sum of all men was published in 1998, and that farland was sanderson's writing teacher - I can see where sanderson's seed for the allomancy (and especially ferochemy) came from. you guessed it - from farland. there is also one scene with the main antagonist - raj ahten - which blew my mind away, and in a part of that scene he slaps some poor queen and demolish half of her face before sending her crushing through the window, already dead from the runelord's mighty slap (you remember when the runelord first met kelsier...? ).

 

[Left]

you need to read runelords.

I just halfway through the first book, and I'm telling you (as a brandon sanderson fan!) - in terms of magic system and it's implications over the world/settings, I've NEVER read anything close to what I'm reading now. especially the implications/consequences of that magic. thus said, I'm by no means saying that this book is better then the way of kings (its not...) but there are some pretty insane ideas weaved in there.

moreover: judging from the fact that the sum of all men was published in 1998, and that farland was sanderson's writing teacher - I can see where sanderson's seed for the allomancy (and especially ferochemy) came from. you guessed it - from farland. there is also one scene with the main antagonist - raj ahten - which blew my mind away, and in a part of that scene he slaps some poor queen and demolish half of her face before sending her crushing through the window, already dead from the runelord's mighty slap (you remember when the runelord first met kelsier...? ).

I remember feeling the same way when I read The Sum of All Men. It was really a great book, and the magic was very well done for the most part( I didn't like the elemental magic very much). I felt like the sequels all went downhill though.

[HelloMyNameIsDrBloodborne]

I know people don't really look upon the Inheritance Cycle very highly, but it was probably the first fantasy series I read where the magic seemed like it had rules and limitations and seemed like there was a kind of natural science behind it.

[Ookla the Absent]

The order/chaos based system from L.E. Modesitt's Saga of Recluse

[DSC01]

I only read the first Recluce book and don't really remember how the magic works, but I remember that the magic in Imager is fairly well described. I liked the first three books, but when I found out that the next volume jumps back in time several hundred years, I decided not to bother (this is the same reason I lost interest in Recluce, where the first book is basically the last, chronologically). The magic system isn't as intricately detailed as in a Sanderson book, but it does have consistent rules and limitations.

 

I'm sure it's not news to many of you here that Brian McClellan has some very Sanderson-esque magic in his Powder Mage trilogy, which he certainly must have learned under Brandon's tutelage in his writing classes. It's a fairly entertaining series, but it really isn't as good as anything in the Cosmere.

 

I echo a number of suggestions, above, that the magic in Lightbringer is the closest you'll find to one of Sanderson's magic systems. I know that most of Brent Weeks' fans are all about Night Angel, but I didn't like that trilogy nearly as much as Lightbringer (which I will hopefully continue to like when the the last book comes out).

[Left]

I only read the first Recluce book and don't really remember how the magic works, but I remember that the magic in Imager is fairly well described. I liked the first three books, but when I found out that the next volume jumps back in time several hundred years, I decided not to bother (this is the same reason I lost interest in Recluce, where the first book is basically the last, chronologically). The magic system isn't as intricately detailed as in a Sanderson book, but it does have consistent rules and limitations.

I'm sure it's not news to many of you here that Brian McClellan has some very Sanderson-esque magic in his Powder Mage trilogy, which he certainly must have learned under Brandon's tutelage in his writing classes. It's a fairly entertaining series, but it really isn't as good as anything in the Cosmere.

I echo a number of suggestions, above, that the magic in Lightbringer is the closest you'll find to one of Sanderson's magic systems. I know that most of Brent Weeks' fans are all about Night Angel, but I didn't like that trilogy nearly as much as Lightbringer (which I will hopefully continue to like when the the last book comes out).

The prequel Imager series is actually very very good. It's actually all one tale, so it doesn't feel so bouncy like Recluse. The magic actually becomes both more mystical and physics based, which I thought was pretty cool.

[DSC01]

Yeah, I've considered picking it up recently. When I had just finished the first trilogy, I was turned off by it.  

[Ookla the Absent]

Yeah, Recluse is very bouncy, and I've only read a half dozen or so books in it, but those that I have read were quite good and were interesting in that they "bounced" to historical points referenced in other books and tie together fairly well.

Also, because of their bounciness, you aren't stuck reading them in order, and reading them out of order can lent quite different perspectives.

[DSC01]

The Long Price Quartet has an interesting magic system. Is it "worthy of Brandon"? That's not really an easy question to answer because it's so different. I think it fits because you really begin to believe that this magic system should work. 

 

The magic is all done by beings called Andat, who are abstract concepts made flesh by poet-sorcerers. The poet-sorcerers have to create a lengthy spell, of sorts, that perfectly expresses the concept entire (in a special magical language, if I recall correctly), then recite that perfectly. If successful, the Andat will manifest as something that looks human and will be bonded to the poet-sorcerer who summoned it. The Andat themselves hate being physical and want to go back to being ideas, but they're stuck until the poet-sorcerer dies without passing his bond to another. They are used according to to their abilities by the societies they're in. For example, there is an Andat named Seedless who is mostly used to get seeds out of cotton, but he is also a military deterrent because if anyone attacks them, he can make everyone and everything in their country sterile (his real name means "removing the part which continues").