Amaram and the ghostbloods (spoilers)

[lordofsoup]

The ghost bloods were trying to kill Amaram.  They wanted him dead so badly that they sent a shardbearer to do it.  After kaladin kills the shardbearer, the ghostbloods have to be pretty pissed, but what would prompt them to send a shardbearer to kill Amaram?  He is not even a highprince.

[11thorderknight]

We don't know....yet.

But...

One of the great things that an epic-scale series like SA or WoT allows is the in-depth development of multiple characters, many of whom can be in conflict with each other. BS has said, and shown, that he doesn't generally go for the stereotypically evil villain characters, instead preferring characters who think they are doing the right thing, but might be using evil means to do so (e.g. the Lord Ruler in Mistborn).

We know Amaram has a reputation for being a "good" lord, even among the commoners who don't hold lighteyes in high esteem. Indeed, it is Amaram's betrayal that leads Kaladin, who used to admire him, to start hating all lighteyes. Could it be that the reputation for honesty is not entirely undeserved?

On the battlefield, when Kaladin kills the Shardbearer, Amaram does not jump at the opportunity to take the Shards. Instead, he explains to Kaladin what they are, and that they belong to him. It's only after talking to Restares that he is convinced to steal them. Even then, he lets Kaladin live. Now, he obviously doesn't get the Medal of Honor for this....but if you look at it from his perspective, he is taking a needless risk in leaving Kaladin alive, because he feels guilty about what he did. Doesn't make it right, but it does show that he has a moral compass that points in the right direction.

So...the real question is: what is he involved in? Why do the Ghostbloods try to hard to kill him? Why did Gavilar think they also wanted him dead, and was therefore surprised by Szeth's admission that it was the Parshendi? What role does Sadeas (Amaram's highprince) have to do with this? Remember, Sadeas may easily have thought he was doing a necessary evil by betraying Dalinar (in order to rid the country of an unstable influence on the young king).

I see this plotline as having huge potential for a series-long conflict regarding "ends vs. means"....which, coincidentally, is the theme of the Knight's Radiant vows (journey before destination, etc).

Just sayin'.

[Earendil]

Sorry, I may be missing something obvious, but how do we know that the ghostbloods were behind the shardbearer at that battle?  Unless we see a tattoo on him somewhere, it's far more likely that the shardbearer was just another power hungry Alethi.  From what I remember, we've only seen two members of the ghostbloods - Kabsal and Shallan's father (plus, possibly, the named servant).  It wouldn't surprise me if there was a conspiracy to overthrow Amaram, but I don't recall any evidence that it was the ghostbloods.

[Andrew the Great he/him]

Shortly after Kaladin kills the Shardbearer, Amaram comes in and kills his men and sells Kaladin into slavery. As he's entering, this happens:

....why Thaidakar would risk this?" Amaram was saying, speaking in a soft voice. "But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We'll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?"

Thaidakar is the leader of the Ghostbloods, and the fact that he mentions them by name as well is interesting. Though we don't know for sure that it was them.

[Zas678 he/him]

Do we know that Thaidakar is the leader of the Ghostbloods? The only other time that I can find his name is during the Assassination.

You see, Gavilar suspects (in this order) Thaidakar, Restares, and Sadeas. He seems to hand off the Black Sphere to Szeth, hoping that "they won't get it", mentioning that it is "too late." Now what are these three up to? And why, three years later have they gotten involved with the attack on Ammaram (Thaidakar in the beginning, Restares in the Kaladin recommendation, and Sadeas because Amaram is his soldier)?

The only 2 things that I can think is the following:

Either Gavilar is not Ghostblood, and Thaidakar (as a ghostblood) sent the Shardbearer to attack Amaram because of his nobility, and Restares isn't with him,

Or,

Thaidakar, Restares, and (assumably) Sadeas are against the Ghostbloods, are fighting against them, and Gavilar got in the way/is a Ghostblood.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Do we know that Thaidakar is the leader of the Ghostbloods? The only other time that I can find his name is during the Assassination.

You see, Gavilar suspects (in this order) Thaidakar, Restares, and Sadeas. He seems to hand off the Black Sphere to Szeth, hoping that "they won't get it", mentioning that it is "too late." Now what are these three up to? And why, three years later have they gotten involved with the attack on Ammaram (Thaidakar in the beginning, Restares in the Kaladin recommendation, and Sadeas because Amaram is his soldier)?

The only 2 things that I can think is the following:

Either Gavilar is not Ghostblood, and Thaidakar (as a ghostblood) sent the Shardbearer to attack Amaram because of his nobility, and Restares isn't with him,

Or,

Thaidakar, Restares, and (assumably) Sadeas are against the Ghostbloods, are fighting against them, and Gavilar got in the way/is a Ghostblood.

5 years later, not 3.

And there's no need to limit yourself to two factions, Ghostblood and non-Ghostbloods. Gavilar, Sadeas, Thaidakar, and Restares could all be doing their own things. Gavilar probably saw himself as a threat to all of them.

Judging from Amaram's words, Thaidakar and Restares are against each other. Amaram reports to Restares, and since Sadeas is Amaram's Highprince, Sadeas might be with Restares as well. Restares might not be a real name either, I think it could be Taravangian's code name.

[hoser he/him]

Interesting question. For me the precursor question is: what are the Ghostbloods trying to achieve?

What do we know about the Ghostbloods?

1. As discussed above, Amaram seems to know about them and thinks they are led by Thaidakar
   
2. Gavilar thinks Thaidakar is the most likely person to try to have him assassinated
   
3. Amaram seems to think that they are behind the attack on him, so I guess the dead Shardbearer has a Ghostblood tattoo
   
4. They may be behind the campaign to make Shallan's father a Highprince.
   
5. They may have provided Shallan's father with a Shardblade and a Soulcaster and they have presumably provided the Shardbearer Kaladin killed with his Shardblade and Shardplate.
   
6. Through Kabsal, they have tried to kill Jasnah, which seems like it could have a hugely destabilizing effect
   

In this thread CabbageHead makes an interesting point about motivation to kill Amaram. Basically, it could destabilize Sadeas and the Alethi kingdom.

Interestingly, Kabsal may reveal the view point of the Ghostbloods. He portrays an ardent, which may or may not be part of his cover, but I think he may also represent part of the Ghostblood point of view. I am struck by the conversation he has with Shallan in Chapter 45. Talking to Shallan about Jasnah, he says:

"She's trying to prove that the Voidbringers weren't real. ... a fabrication of the Radiants. ... that the devotaries - and Vorinism - are a gigantic fraud. ... Haven't we been scourged enough?" Kabsal said, eyes angry. " ... Yet this is real. It's all real, and they ignore us and -"

He cut off suddenly, glancing at her, lips tight, jaw clenched. She'd never seen such fervor, such fury from the pleasant ardent. She wouldn't have thought him capable of it.

"I'm sorry," he said, ...

For someone trying to be trusted enough to poison Jasnah, this is not a clever thing to say. It could therefore be what he really believes. If he believes this and joined the Ghostbloods, they presumably believe in the Desolations and are trying to do something about them. It also opens up the possibility that the Ghostbloods are involved with Vorinism more deeply. They could also be another group trying to pull a Taravangian.

I don't think that they are the same as Taravangian's group because we know what Taravangian does to those they have a problem with. They just seem to be studying Jasnah, presenting her with not-strong Taravangian and contriving situations to get her to Soulcast even though they have Soulcasters of their own. I don't see evidence that Taravangian's group wanted to kill Jasnah at the point that Kabsal was trying.

The Ghostbloods seem to be concerned with upcoming Desolations, want to destabilize Alethkar (Amaram and Jasnah assassination attempts, suspected in Gavilar's) and want to plant their own highprince in Jah Keved. To answer the original question, they seem to be a competing group trying to destabilize Alethkar, similarly to Taravangian, possibly with some Vorin basis.

The Shardbearer enters a fight between Hallaw and Amaram. Hallaw is Alethi, likely from Vamah, possibly Aladar. Does the highprince of wherever Hallaw is from have Ghostblood support or is he likely to be succeeded by Hallaw (and might Hallaw have Ghostblood support)?

[Chicken]

I'm pretty sure I haven't seen anyone around here mention this so I'd like to mention that there's also Oldbloods somewhere in Roshar. It's a blink and miss, you only get a single chance to catch it:

The war room door was open, and Teleb—highofficer on duty—saluted as Dalinar entered. Teleb was a straight-backed man with light green eyes. He kept his long hair in a braid and had a blue tattoo on his cheek, marking him as an Oldblood.

So, Oldbloods are a group of whatevers that's identified by a tattoo on a cheek, much like Ghostbloods and their tattoo. And the name similarity is too much to ignore. Plus Dalinar knows they exist and doesn't seem particularly concerned that one of his highest officers is one.

My pet idea is that there's a bunch of known Somethingbloods around and Ghostbloods named themselves after those, especially if those Whateverbloods are a religious/political thing that ties into Ghostbloods' goals. There's nothing to support this idea, but it would kinda strengthen the speculation that Ghostbloods could be a religion based affair.

...

Also, the speculation that Teft is somehow tied to Ghostbloods could actually turn out to be true. Teft betrayed Envisagers and thinks they don't exist anymore, but he doesn't have to be correct in his assumption. Some Envisagers could've survived and formed Ghostbloods. Teft is 40ish I think, and my impression is that Teft's betrayal happened when he was young (teen or tween). That leaves plenty of time for stuff to happen. Also also, there must have been something to betray Envisagers "to". That could be the rival secret organization aka "Taravangianbloods". OTOH Envisagers' belief in Radiants would clearly be quite threatening to mainstream Vorinism so it might've been ardentia that hit them.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

On a different, yet related topic, what is Restares, the second most likely person to have staged a murder attempt on Gavilar, doing advising Amaram, who isn't even a highlord?

Also, I don't think the Kabsal quote describes the motivation of the Ghostbloods. I think it describes Kabsal's motivation - the reason he became part of the organization.

[fiveAM he/him]

I'm pretty sure I haven't seen anyone around here mention this so I'd like to mention that there's also Oldbloods somewhere in Roshar. It's a blink and miss, you only get a single chance to catch it:

So, Oldbloods are a group of whatevers that's identified by a tattoo on a cheek, much like Ghostbloods and their tattoo. And the name similarity is too much to ignore. Plus Dalinar knows they exist and doesn't seem particularly concerned that one of his highest officers is one.

My pet idea is that there's a bunch of known Somethingbloods around and Ghostbloods named themselves after those, especially if those Whateverbloods are a religious/political thing that ties into Ghostbloods' goals. There's nothing to support this idea, but it would kinda strengthen the speculation that Ghostbloods could be a religion based affair.

...

Also, the speculation that Teft is somehow tied to Ghostbloods could actually turn out to be true. Teft betrayed Envisagers and thinks they don't exist anymore, but he doesn't have to be correct in his assumption. Some Envisagers could've survived and formed Ghostbloods. Teft is 40ish I think, and my impression is that Teft's betrayal happened when he was young (teen or tween). That leaves plenty of time for stuff to happen. Also also, there must have been something to betray Envisagers "to". That could be the rival secret organization aka "Taravangianbloods". OTOH Envisagers' belief in Radiants would clearly be quite threatening to mainstream Vorinism so it might've been ardentia that hit them.

I like your idea on the connections between the Ghostbloods and Oldbloods. LIke you said, Oldbloods are known, but Ghostbloods are obviously much more secretive. Their name itself makes that apparent too "ghost". Now, though we don't know exactly what the Oldbloods are, and whether they do have a connection Vorinism, but it seems very possible, it brings up interesting ideas. Like BS has said, its not about having traditional evil people but people with different ways of doing things that end up conflicting, even if the goal is the same. From Kabsal's conversation with Shallan, it would appear that they're purpose isn't simply to cause chaos and destabilize, but like Taravangian says to Szeth in the end, they're trying to organize humanity to fight the Voidbringers in their own way.

I don't know if Taravangian is a part of the Ghostbloods, he seems to be of a leadership person, a person in charge, but Thaidakar seems to be the leader of the Ghostbloods. However, I could totally see Taravangian being a part of the Ghostbloods in order to manipulate them, just as he's fooling everyone else with his sporadic intelligence, my bet is that if Taravangian is in the Ghostbloods, the Ghostbloods don't know about Szeth.

So, so far it seems like, Dalinar, Ghostbloods, and Taravangian are 3 forces who seem to have the same goal: organize humanity to fight the Voidbringers, but are obviously doing it each in their own ways, which seem to foreshadow major conflicts between them. This is just guessing but i have a feeling that Elhokar's wife is going to become a bigger character in the next books, i mean she's keeping Alethkar together (possible connection to Amaran) not to mention Taln is (last seen) there. So possibly 4 difference forces.

*note I don't know how the Envisagers are going to play into this, but i don't think (or rather i hope) they are separate from the Ghostbloods and Vorinism (as a religion) groups. I've always though them to be a secret society made by the Radiants. Maybe the last Radiants saw their powers disappearing/going whack, and created a little group sort of like the Society of the Second Dawn from The Night Angel Trilogy (sort of), and their mission was to teach the new Surgebinders how to use their powers with the knowledge that was passed down. But i do think the Engisagers aren't completely wiped out and they'll slowly come into play

[name_here]

It seems unlikely Taravangian is a Ghostblood, because he didn't assist in the assassination attempts on Jasnah.

However, he could be running the same plan. Specifically, I think the Ghostbloods, the Parshendi, and Team Taravangian all intend to trigger a bunch of wars so the full military might of Roshar will be already moblized when the Desolation hits, and then they can say, "Hey, look, Voidbringers. Ceasefire and team up on them?"

The Parshendi, however, managed it better by getting a very large army engaged in low-intensity conflict for a long period in a reasonably defensible area.

[hoser he/him]

I like where this speculation is leading.

I offer another thought that may help season this stew. We know of three "guilds" that train their members independantly, communicate, keep records and work across nations: the healers, the ardents and the stormwardens. It seems clear to me that the healers are being used for intelligence purposes and to support Taravangian's efforts. Could the stormwardens and/or ardents be used similarly? If so, could there be an association between the mysterious Restares and the stormwardens? The ardents and the Ghostbloods? The three guilds seem like they would be useful for anyone wanting to expand their influence.

Shallan's family seems about as unholy as imaginable, but the ardents seem like they could have access to some of the missing Blades and Plate.

Sir Read-a-Lot pointed out that Restares seems too important to be hanging out with Amaram, but the stormwarden with Amaram could easily be helping Amaram communicate via spanreed or some other mechanism with Restares.