Why didn't they...? (WaT)

[Xabben]

So, Im in the 79 chapter of WaT, just when they discover that the army that is supposedly coming to invade Thaylen City is fake. In that moment, Jasnah decides to send most troops from Thaylen City to the Shattered Plains, as sending them to Azimir is impossible due to the Oathgate not working for them. However, this is totally stupid. You have a group of soldiers that can LITERALLY fly to their destination. Why not send a small group of Windrunners to Urithiru, and then make them fly to Azimir? In fact, a single Windrunner would be enough to heavily increase the winning probabilities of the coallition forces in Azimir. There isn't a single reason that justifies not doing that...

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, Xabben said:

So, Im in the 79 chapter of WaT, just when they discover that the army that is supposedly coming to invade Thaylen City is fake. In that moment, Jasnah decides to send most troops from Thaylen City to the Shattered Plains, as sending them to Azimir is impossible due to the Oathgate not working for them. However, this is totally stupid. You have a group of soldiers that can LITERALLY fly to their destination. Why not send a small group of Windrunners to Urithiru, and then make them fly to Azimir? In fact, a single Windrunner would be enough to heavily increase the winning probabilities of the coallition forces in Azimir. There isn't a single reason that justifies not doing that...

I don't remember the details now and I don't think it was explained in the book, but I think that there are several reasons for that. Firstly, it obviously takes time to fly there, but there is also the matter of Stormlight. Without flying with the Highstorm, they would need to have a considerable amount of Stormlight and take large gemstones to store it, which probably was the main reason why they didn't send anyone flying to Azimir. I don't remember when was the last Highstorm, but it's likely that they were running low on Stormlight, so sending Windrunners that far away would be too big of a drain on their investiture reserves. Also remember, when in OB Kaladin went home, he took the royal gem reserves full of Stormlight with him, but he still ran out of light short of his destination - and he was alone. Those gemstones were probably already in use now and Stormlight was carefully managed, so sending even a small squad of Radiants to Azimir was out of the question. Secondly, there is also the fact that Odium's army in Azimir was made mostly of regular Singers, with very little Fused, while on the Shattered Plains they were facing off 1000 Fused, Unmades and even more - they were desperately in need of Radiants there. I think that's why they didn't send anyone to Azimir.

[Xabben]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't remember the details now and I don't think it was explained in the book, but I think that there are several reasons for that. Firstly, it obviously takes time to fly there, but there is also the matter of Stormlight. Without flying with the Highstorm, they would need to have a considerable amount of Stormlight and take large gemstones to store it, which probably was the main reason why they didn't send anyone flying to Azimir. I don't remember when was the last Highstorm, but it's likely that they were running low on Stormlight, so sending Windrunners that far away would be too big of a drain on their investiture reserves. Also remember, when in OB Kaladin went home, he took the royal gem reserves full of Stormlight with him, but he still ran out of light short of his destination - and he was alone. Those gemstones were probably already in use now and Stormlight was carefully managed, so sending even a small squad of Radiants to Azimir was out of the question. Secondly, there is also the fact that Odium's army in Azimir was made mostly of regular Singers, with very little Fused, while on the Shattered Plains they were facing off 1000 Fused, Unmades and even more - they were desperately in need of Radiants there. I think that's why they didn't send anyone to Azimir.

The distance between Urithiru and Azimir is pretty small. I don't think that sending a single radiant would make a difference for the stormlight reserves. Regarding the need of radiants in the Shattered Plains, do you really think that sending 100 radiants vs sending 98 would be really an advantage in practice? On the other hand, sending 2 vs 0 could be the difference between maintaining or losing control over the entire Azir empire, precisely because the singers don't have many fused in Azimir.

Edited 2 hours ago by Xabben

[The White Drake]

They did. Some Windrunners show up at the end, after the city has already fallen. Can't recall if they were from the Mink's ferry force or Thaylenah though.

[alder24]

36 minutes ago, Xabben said:

The distance between Urithiru and Azimir is pretty small. I don't think that sending a single radiant would make a difference for the stormlight reserves.

I beg the differ, the book begs the differ as there was a moment when someone, somewhere was worried they will run out of Stormlight. They were also worried at the very beginning of the book, knowing that if Dalinar loses himself in the SR, his Radiants would be left without his ability to replenish Stormlight, which was a big deal. So throughout the book there was a constant concern about how much Stormlight they have left.

Sending a few Radiants 1200 km away would put a considerable strain on their light reserves. And we're not talking about just one or two people, you need to send their squires too because they are useless without their knight, so we're talking about a small group of Radiants. How will you send them even if you can spare them light, if you have no large gemstones capable of storing that light? Travelling such a large distance with a group of people would be a significant drain on their Stormlight reserves, which could be used much better fighting Fused instead. 

36 minutes ago, Xabben said:

Regarding the need of radiants in the Shattered Plains, do you really think that sending 100 radiants vs sending 98 would be really an advantage in practice? On the other hand, sending 2 vs 0 could be the difference between maintaining or losing control over the entire Azir empire, precisely because the singers don't have many fused in Azimir.

I do agree, having a few Radiants in Azimir would have been a huge help, but in the end it didn't happen. Maybe I just don't remember and there was an explanation of this somewhere in the book, which we both simply missed.

Edited 1 hour ago by alder24

[Returned he/him]

The conditions of the fight in Azimir don't really favor Windrunners. It's a confined space in the Oathgate complex, and lots of cover in the city streets if/when the fighting spills outside of that. The Shattered Plains are basically the opposite, lots of open ground with no cover from above along with broken terrain and huge chasms, plus plenty of Heavenly Ones for coalition forces to contend with. While I agree that Windrunners are valuable war assets and would make a difference in Azimir I think that you are dramatically overestimating how useful they would be in there, especially compared with the other theater. Maybe I'm not seeing your argument, though. What is your reasoning for why one or two would be so important in Azimir? Is it just that they're Radiants who could get there in time?

The Stormlight reserves are too important to brush off, I think. There is a limited amount of it to work with for all coalition forces across all fronts, they can't easily get more, it's expensive to move, and sending enough for a Windrunner or two to reach Azimir and also fuel their operations there means it can't be available anywhere else. Its distribution in WaT was likely thought out very carefully to handle things like healing soldiers, powering Radiants, and similar. Running out in one place could be catastrophic, and for a couple of Windrunners to be useful in Azimir they'd need a good amount just to convey their advantages.

It might have been a good idea, but it's far from an obviously ideal plan with zero considerations that might point in a different direction.

[Xabben]

13 minutes ago, Returned said:

The conditions of the fight in Azimir don't really favor Windrunners. It's a confined space in the Oathgate complex, and lots of cover in the city streets if/when the fighting spills outside of that. The Shattered Plains are basically the opposite, lots of open ground with no cover from above along with broken terrain and huge chasms, plus plenty of Heavenly Ones for coalition forces to contend with. While I agree that Windrunners are valuable war assets and would make a difference in Azimir I think that you are dramatically overestimating how useful they would be in there, especially compared with the other theater. Maybe I'm not seeing your argument, though. What is your reasoning for why one or two would be so important in Azimir? Is it just that they're Radiants who could get there in time?

The Stormlight reserves are too important to brush off, I think. There is a limited amount of it to work with for all coalition forces across all fronts, they can't easily get more, it's expensive to move, and sending enough for a Windrunner or two to reach Azimir and also fuel their operations there means it can't be available anywhere else. Its distribution in WaT was likely thought out very carefully to handle things like healing soldiers, powering Radiants, and similar. Running out in one place could be catastrophic, and for a couple of Windrunners to be useful in Azimir they'd need a good amount just to convey their advantages.

It might have been a good idea, but it's far from an obviously ideal plan with zero considerations that might point in a different direction.

The entire army in Azimir only had two shardbearers. Sending two radiants with shardblades would multiply the probabilities of avoiding the invasion. It's not their powers, is the fact that they have nearly divine weapons.

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I beg the differ, the book begs the differ as there was a moment when someone, somewhere was worried they will run out of Stormlight. They were also worried at the very beginning of the book, knowing that if Dalinar loses himself in the SR, his Radiants would be left without his ability to replenish Stormlight, which was a big deal. So throughout the book there was a constant concern about how much Stormlight they have left.

Sending a few Radiants 1200 km away would put a considerable strain on their light reserves. And we're not talking about just one or two people, you need to send their squires too because they are useless without their knight, so we're talking about a small group of Radiants. How will you send them even if you can spare them light, if you have no large gemstones capable of storing that light? Travelling such a large distance with a group of people would be a significant drain on their Stormlight reserves, which could be used much better fighting Fused instead. 

I do agree, having a few Radiants in Azimir would have been a huge help, but in the end it didn't happen. Maybe I just don't remember and there was an explanation of this somewhere in the book, which we both simply missed.

Is the distance between Urithiru and Azimir really 1200 km? According to the map, I would say that it's much closer to 200 km, or something like that...

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Xabben said:

Is the distance between Urithiru and Azimir really 1200 km? According to the map, I would say that it's much closer to 200 km, or something like that...

Here's the interactive map, where you can measure distances with a tool in the bottom right corner: https://roshar.17thshard.com/#/en-US