MR77: Cycle One: Diamonds

[Illwei]

I was wrong, LG67 was my first. Idk why I forgot about it. 

@Hoid Slayer LG50? I was Village in that. Strange that you think you remember me for some reason tho! I haven't been around at all in a few years I believe. 

And while the tie rule makes the argument for exeing C1 obsolete, there are also many other reasons that we do. 

--

Anyways again, I don't think we should claim what we are trying to grab. I don't think it's explicitly harmful, but I also think we should grab items which give favor. Elims may try to grab those items as well so that they keep them away from the Merchants. 

[Ascended Grubberfly He/Him]

9 minutes ago, Illwei said:

You haven't played BOTC before, have you? 

No idea what that is.

 

10 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Anyways the tonal change is noted. 

Mine or the game in general?

 

10 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Also according to the rules, the rebuke isn't affected by the factional, only by the exe.

Wait. Can you explain that more, I'm a little confused by the terminology.

[Illwei]

Quote

Enmity = 1 + # exed Merchants - # exed Ghostbloods

There are two "daily" kills in this game

The Execution is the kill that we get to vote on- the "village's" Kill. 

The NK, Factional, Ghostblood's kill - This is the kill the Ghostbloods/Elims have every cycle. 

The Factional doesn't affect Emnity, only the Exe does. Them killing off more merchants, though favorable to them, does not affect the level of Emnity.

[Mint11 she/her]

16 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Wait @Mint11 how veteran are you?

uhh I'm not sure how many games I played in the olden days, but there's a master spreadsheet somewhere that tracks everyone's SE history. if "veteran" implies "skilled" though, that's kinda a sus designation

[Mystic He/Him]

2 minutes ago, Illwei said:

There are two "daily" kills in this game

The Execution is the kill that we get to vote on- the "village's" Kill. 

The NK, Factional, Ghostblood's kill - This is the kill the Ghostbloods/Elims have every cycle. 

The Factional doesn't affect Emnity, only the Exe does. Them killing off more merchants, though favorable to them, does not affect the level of Emnity.

@Archer, can you confirm this? That’s not how I interpreted that and I think that matters quite a bit 

edit: Illwei’s interpretation means that if a Shardbearer hits a Elim it doesn’t count towards emnity and that seems off to me

Edited yesterday at 01:51 AM by Mystic

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

11 minutes ago, Illwei said:

LG50? I was Village in that. Strange that you think you remember me for some reason tho! I haven't been around at all in a few years I believe. 

Nope, LG 104

And for the record, you were evil

1 minute ago, Mystic said:

@Archer, can you confirm this? That’s not how I interpreted that and I think that matters quite a bit 

I think Illwei’s right

The rules for Enmity specify executions

[Mystic He/Him]

1 minute ago, Hoid Slayer said:

I think Illwei’s right

The rules for Enmity specify executions

That incredibly nerfs shardbearers and allows for the play of Elims self NKing in order to make it so we don’t get the benifit of exing them

[Illwei]

4 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Nope, LG 104

Oh huh, 

I guess I don't have anything after AG10 logged in my spreadsheet. I don't remember that game. 

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

11 minutes ago, Mystic said:

That incredibly nerfs shardbearers and allows for the play of Elims self NKing in order to make it so we don’t get the benifit of exing them

Huh

That is… scary

[Illwei]

1 hour ago, Mystic said:

And no, I’m not, but I’m never sure C1. In this case I just didn’t see a reason to keep it there. My original plan was to do Hoid, and then once I’d gotten a better handle on the thread switch to someone else. I didn’t really learn much, it’s C1 after all, so I didn’t have anyone to switch to. And I was planning on taking it off anyways, I didn’t see a reason to not do that

Just clarifying: 

You voted him to get a reaction, and then took it off just because? before any reaction? 

What did you get out of voting for him, and what did you get out of taking the vote off? 

ED1T:

19 minutes ago, Mystic said:

That incredibly nerfs shardbearers and allows for the play of Elims self NKing in order to make it so we don’t get the benifit of exing them

I want to say:

No it doesn't nerf Shardbearers. They still kill. 

As I mentioned before, just because the Elims wincon is not to outnumber the Village does not mean it does not play into their wincon to kill the Villagers. 

Elims NKing anyone plays to their wincon. The more discussion we have the worse the Elims have it- and that's pretty much it. The more people to use items for Favour, the more people to discuss and talk and vote. The worse the ELims have it. 

Killing people doesn't take away from their wincon, or even stray from it. It is still directly beneficial.

Shardblades are also useful even moreso to the village, since the village having any sort of kill power that is not the Exe is beneficial so long as the user kills someone likely to be up for exe. Which is a play I recommend.

I also believe Elims will not NK themselves. This would be a silly play. There is likely 3 of them, since there is a thief. maybe 4 but that sure feels pushing it with the Emnity factor. They will not be killing themselves unless it's a game-winning play at that exact moment, which I find very unlikely. 

A kill NOT in the hands of the village as a whole is a net loss for the village. Even a kill in the hands of a single villager is swingy at best. 

Edited yesterday at 02:12 AM by Illwei

[Mystic He/Him]

4 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Just clarifying: 

You voted him to get a reaction, and then took it off just because? before any reaction? 

What did you get out of voting for him, and what did you get out of taking the vote off? 

Pretty much yeah

I was going to take the vote off anyways, and I didn’t see a reason to change that even though I didn’t have an idea of who to change my vote to

And yeah, I didn’t really get a reaction from him, but my plan was to change the vote as soon as I had a better idea of what was happening. I wasn’t going to get a reaction either way 

[Archer he/him]

25 minutes ago, Mystic said:

@Archer, can you confirm this? That’s not how I interpreted that and I think that matters quite a bit 

edit: Illwei’s interpretation means that if a Shardbearer hits a Elim it doesn’t count towards emnity and that seems off to me

Enmity is calculated based on exes only. The Enmity announced at the start of the round is the amount villagers need to match or exceed to pass that round.

[Illwei]

Huh, fura is in your sig, hoid? 

Anyways Hoid and Mystic are likely unpartnered(as Elims) atm. 

Mystic's vote on them most likely would not have been removed if they were Elims. 

Right now I am leaning Hoid as a Villager, which wouldn't guarantee anything else, but I do think Mystic is Leaning on the Elim side. Their reluctance to want to place another vote, plus their removal of Hoid is relevant to my suspicion. 

[Mystic He/Him]

2 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Huh, fura is in your sig, hoid? 

Anyways Hoid and Mystic are likely unpartnered(as Elims) atm. 

Mystic's vote on them most likely would not have been removed if they were Elims. 

Right now I am leaning Hoid as a Villager, which wouldn't guarantee anything else, but I do think Mystic is Leaning on the Elim side. Their reluctance to want to place another vote, plus their removal of Hoid is relevant to my suspicion. 

I think you’d prefer me thinking that who I’m voting could be Elim over just throwing out a vote 

[Illwei]

1 minute ago, Mystic said:

I think you’d prefer me thinking that who I’m voting could be Elim over just throwing out a vote 

Well you'd think wrong!

[Mystic He/Him]

Just now, Illwei said:

Well you'd think wrong!

That’s a different playstyle than I’m used to, huh 

Interesting

[Ascended Grubberfly He/Him]

I don't really have a read on people, but I think Hoid is probably fine. Unless he's just playing me.

@CoderDrag0n8 Coder Whats up in CoderLand?

[Qianweilian He/him]

51 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Referencing something with “I’ve seen” when it happened like a week ago is crazy

(don't mention the part where we also entirely forgot to submit a nk)

45 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Anyways again, I don't think we should claim what we are trying to grab. I don't think it's explicitly harmful, but I also think we should grab items which give favor. Elims may try to grab those items as well so that they keep them away from the Merchants. 

I disagree. Receiving/not receiving an item could potentially become a very good source of information and analysis. It would also help us not waste favor.

31 minutes ago, Mystic said:

That incredibly nerfs shardbearers and allows for the play of Elims self NKing in order to make it so we don’t get the benifit of exing them

So, while I do think a missing nk could happen, I really doubt this will. It would require a very weird situation where someone is almost guaranteed to be exed, but not for a cycle.

23 minutes ago, Illwei said:

There is likely 3 of them, since there is a thief.

I wonder if it might be worth trying to team with the thief. Maybe later when there's fewer people involved.

8 minutes ago, Mystic said:

I think you’d prefer me thinking that who I’m voting could be Elim over just throwing out a vote 

There's not much we can do this cycle other than test reactions and throw out votes.

Anyway, just on vibes really, I'm leaning v! Hoid, v!Grub, e!Myst, and unsure about Illwei.

3 minutes ago, Ascended Grubberfly said:

@CoderDrag0n8 Coder Whats up in CoderLand?

He's coding, obviously.

[Ascended Grubberfly He/Him]

1 minute ago, Qianweilian said:

He's coding, obviously.

Probably coding an ORV fangame, or something. All love Coder! 

[Illwei]

@Ascended Grubberfly Are you able to pinpoint anything specific you like about hoid? 

 

17 minutes ago, Mystic said:

That’s a different playstyle than I’m used to, huh 

I typed out a whole paragraph, but, i think i'll just respond with:

Haha. I get that a lot :P.

ED1T: 

@Qianweilian can you talk about your read on Mystic at all? 

Edited yesterday at 02:44 AM by Illwei

[Ascended Grubberfly He/Him]

Just now, Illwei said:

@Ascended Grubberfly Are you able to pinpoint anything specific you like about hoid? 

Honestly, no. I don't know if he genuinely though no exe was good, or if he is trying to be goody goody with anyone. I suppose saying I have no reason to exe him is more accurate.

[Qianweilian He/him]

3 minutes ago, Illwei said:

@Qianweilian can you talk about your read on Mystic at all? 

So I have to go to bed and can't say a ton more, but I feel like he's trying too hard to push a certain image. Something feels off.

[Illwei]

4 minutes ago, Ascended Grubberfly said:

Honestly, no. I don't know if he genuinely though no exe was good, or if he is trying to be goody goody with anyone. I suppose saying I have no reason to exe him is more accurate.

I think that was a thought I had as well - I have him and you unpartnered for this reason. I did think it could be a possibility of him trying to buddy up to you, or to try and sow a little discord.

I do think you are village at the moment - you not trying to play the un-knowledgable newbie as you could have, and also attacking hoid in a way for agreeing with you is a good look for you. An Elim would be a little less happy to go after someone for copying them, instead most likely using it as an opportunity to get closer with them. 

@Qianweilian I would love to hear more about what image you feel he's trying to push when you've come back

EDIT: when you've slept on it

Edited yesterday at 02:50 AM by Illwei
sounds better ngl

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

31 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Huh, fura is in your sig, hoid? 

I have some SE people in there

I think I asked him to be my Shardbuddy after we yapped together in a dead doc for like a 100 pages (spoiler - I had way too much free time on my hands, and every assumption I made was wrong)

33 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Right now I am leaning Hoid as a Villager

Well thank you

I’m not sure I can say the same, to be honest

Elims definitely want someone to control the thread but if I was in a different mood I’d be doing that too

I was gonna get some PMs up tonight be I really am too tired, it’s been a long day

See you all in the morning, when I will also have to figure out what the flip to do with my action

[The Unknown Character he/him]

3 hours ago, Illwei said:

I'm going to just put the whole "do we kill" debate that always happens to bed. I'm not going to justify it right now, but for this game specifically.

Ties are broken randomly. If people were to all agree - including ghostbloods - that we wouldn't vote? The tie of 13 votes would be broken, and someone would die- yet we would have no control over it. 

@Ascended Grubberfly @Hoid Slayer

So Grub- if you were to abstain as a protest of voting someone out completely, you are saying a couple of things with that action (intended or not): 

1) It matters not to you who does die, in a pool of 13. 
 - This is pretty self-explanatory, since in a game like this voting is one of the only ways you have to solidly communicate and take action. Sure there are other actions, but eh. 
2) You think other people can make better decisions than you. Someone is going do die regardless. 
 - Regardless of your assumptions or feelings, if you are a Merchant, then in your eyes there is only one confirmed Merchant - Yourself. 
 - You not voting means that the vote is comprised of only those who you do not know the alignment of for certain. 
 - Therefore not voting implies that you are okay with the Ghostbloods being the deciding voice in the Exe. 

--

@Qianweilian 

If I'm honest it's because you asked why you were being voted on. 

If I'm being dishonest? Then it's probably because I'm the only one allowed to have a "wei" in their name, or something. 

--

@The Unknown Character

I don't see why coordinating actions is important. The only thing that should be said aloud in my mind is making sure that whoever has a (the?) letter of endorsement saves it. Also that people should obviously go for the Favourable Items when trying to grab new things from the ship. Again someone correct me if I am misinterpreting the rules here somehow.  

There are ways to replenish Favourable Items, and I don't see the need. Is it possible that somehow no one uses anything tonight? I suppose. But it's unlikely that we trigger the Rebuke this early and I find it unlikely that we would use  up all favorable items doing so. 

I do believe that historically I clash a little with TUO, but I may be wrong about that. So forgive me if my vote of 

The Unknown Character

Is at all premature. 

This is based on the fact that when looking through the thread he seems to come to the conclusion that "everyone" is talking about not to coordinate.
In fact the only person to say that we shouldn't was me, and not a single person agreed with me as far as I can see. Hoid's first post was about how we might want to coordinate, and even in his response to me he didn't agree or disagree one way or another. 

A misinterpretation of the thread is not something worth voting on, but what is happening here is a higher fixation on someone who has posted twice rather than the rest of the thread. If anything, the thread is dominated by the "should we even have an exe" discussion, but instead he doesn't comment on that being the "crazy" part of thread. 

ED1T: 

Adding onto this: I forgot to mention that this also builds on his entrance into thread: Where he noted simply that he existed and would come back later. Check ins such as those are easy ways for Elims to feel like they are contributing to thread existing without having to say much. It's a way to keep promising more that they don't always follow up with. 

Vague negative read on Hoid for now simply because of how amiable he does seem to every comment. 

Who are all the new players and how long have you been playing? Not necessary to answer me, I just worry about pushing too hard on anyone that might make them shrink back when people are being mildly pretty vocal in thread so far. 

Hi Illwei, I missed you

I just reread to check, there were definitely less people than I thought, but I interpreted Hoid as being anti-coordination, and no one was pro-coordination. That is also exactly the same as the number of people against the exe (Grub and kinda Hoid)

I think we're both fixating, you just chose to fixate on something different so you inflated your fixation's importance mentally

I chose not to engage with the exe discussion cause it always goes the same way and I wouldn't have been saying anything new

I'm going to include a profile of what comes to mind for all the players at the bottom of this post 

3 hours ago, Mystic said:

Oh, he asked for someone else to get the  treasure

That means he’s not an officer. He then asked if there was someone who could get it. If he was Elim he’d (most likely*) have a teammate who’d have coached him better.

Plus he probably would’ve had a teammate who could use it.

To me there’s quite a few things that wouldn’t make sense if he was Elim. Plus this is his first game, so I’m discounting him trying for a derp clear

Especially after last game, I don't think lack of coaching is a good reason to derp clear. Elim docs just be inactive sometimes. 

He also could have already decided to do something else with his action but still be an officer. It's unlikely but possible

2 hours ago, Mint11 said:

we definitely need to kill someone. if we only ex someone when we're confident they're a ghostblood, that means we don't get much information this cycle. if we don't get much information, we won't be able to work out who's a ghostblood. it'll just be a never ending cycle. the lynch gives us too much information for us to give it up

calculation for enmity is 1 + # exed Merchants - # exed Ghostbloods, so we can reasonably assume that the enmity for this cycle will be 1+1-0 = 2

we need at least two favor to counteract that, so yeah, I'd agree with using treasure if you can. as for coordination, there's a risk of elims strategizing the kill or the use of a painrial to get people to lose items, if they know who has what or who can do what. coordination via PMs can probably give us some fun mind games chaos though

famous last words...

 

@Stardust noticed you haven't chimed in yet. what are your thoughts on action coordination for the village?

 

also hi @Illwei I think I've seen you around before? but I don't think we've played together? it's been a long time though, so I may have forgotten. but I'm not a new player, just a returning one

Wouldn't it just be one this cycle? Cause no one is dead? @Archer?

Or is it calculated after the exe for some reason?

Player profile (this is just what comes to my head immediately, sorry if I forget something)

1. @Hoid Slayer as Y, an inexperienced sailor with a positive attitude and a secret. 

Nicknamed Hoid (or Slayerman ) has been around for a decent bit, knows what he's doing. 

2. @Stardust

Nicknamed Star, was Through the Living Star until recently. Pretty new but is getting into the swing of things. People don't seem to care as much these days, but Star is about at the point where we'd stop being worried about killing them early.

3. @The Unknown Character

Incredible at the art of deduction, never an elim, and I hear he's devastatingly handsome

In all seriousness, I'm probably less active than you (Illwei) would remember, though that might change after I leave for Fargo. 

4. @Wahrheitswächter as Ralm the Thaylen Merchant, and Babsk of Essyn, bearing a mistspren, trinkets, and secrets. 

Pretty medium experience for this crew I think. And an excellent co-GM I should add

5. @coco.pudding as Essyn, a Thaylen apprentice looking to prove herself worthy of her family name (which is secret).

A bit more experienced than Wahr (I think), and has scared me with her elim skills a few times. More likely to be an elim when she seems village than the other way around tbh

6. @Mystic as Fickle

A bit less experienced than Wahr I think, pretty solid grasp of the game though

7. @Through the Living Hopper as 1. 

Hopper (formerly That One Worldhopper) is getting fairly experienced. He knows what's going on

8. @Ascended Grubberfly as Darak the Reshi returning home who secretly helped draft pre-written boasts. 

Brand new to SE, first game

9. @Mint11 as Shejun

Returning player as you've noted, joins fairly inconsistently so has only been back for a handful of games

10. @Qianweilian

Generally called Qian. A bit less experienced than Myst I think, just came off an elim game where they did will but not particularly notably so 

11. @CoderDrag0n8 as X, the retired sailor brought along for his experience and his secret weapon. 

Normally called CD or Coder. Probably a few games past when we historically would have been worried about exing him early

12. @Illwei

Illwei is a very experienced player, has been in and out of SE, but plays(played?) a lot on Mafia Universe, which is much more hard core than here, hence the intensity 

13. @|TJ|

Experienced player, has been around longer than me (my first game was run by him actually)

This was nice, helped me sort out my own thoughts about everyone

Edit: Very ninja'd  but tbh I don't really have anything to say in response to any of that so see you in the morning 

Edited yesterday at 03:02 AM by The Unknown Character