The organization and power of Odium's army.

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

Because it's the simplest reasonable solution. Before your proposal, the only alternative I saw offered was 'they can't', which we know is wrong. Even your proposal is based on conjecture. Doing it like Radiants is the most likely way, as Fused are Radiant analogs.

This is no less conjecture. Radiants and Fused certainly are analogues, but to suggest that they are similar in many (though not all) ways and so must be similar in this one, additional way isn't much of an argument. Especially when we know that they differ in other ways, such as unlimited passive benefits and no (or negligible) Voidlight loss, so they aren't 1:1 analogues. Again, I'm not ruling out the similar method, only indicating that we don't have any specific evidence in favor of it, either. I am in a state of equipoise.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

Yeah, you did. I meant examples of Fused when they should have used their Surges in external ways, but didn't. Heavenly Ones rarely are close to anything to Lash, and we see very little of many other Brands fighting.

Every fight they've lost, then. Which is really the same list as I offered before, but perhaps especially in WaT. The Fused we're most familiar with have some options: Heavenly Ones could lash boulders as artillery, Masked Ones could sow confusion with free-ranging illusions, etc. The types we're less familiar with were almost certainly present in those WaT battles, but they either didn't use their external powers or their external powers weren't enough to win. Every tactic that makes Surges useful for Radiants in combat should also apply to the Fused with those same Surges, plus the Fused have far more experience, knowledge, and subtlety surrounding their powers.

It is possible that the books simply omit instances of them using their powers externally, maybe to hold those details back until later books. There is a frustrating amount of that. Possible, and maybe even likely, as we similarly don't see a lot of the powers from Radiant orders that haven't been featured prominently. But the Fused lost those battles regardless, despite their greater skill, so their Surges may not be as devastatingly effective as suggested. But maybe that's an army composition issue more than anything else, it's not like we got a ton of information on the troop ratios.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

Demand? I didn't have the book, so I asked if anyone else did. I don't get where you found the idea that I was somehow forcing others to research my claims for me. When no-one stepped up, I went and laid hands on a copy. I fail to see how you can take 'if anyone can provide the exact text, that would be much appreciated' as some sort of demand and 'poor form'.

You say I presented my claim to strongly, but I did state it was secondhand. I was not, as you said, 'passing on things I heard wherever as an argument', which is where I take umbridge. Your statement was very aggressive and accusatory.

My comment was related to advancing the citation as decisive evidence without having, or having seen, the reference. "This book definitely states this, right here on these pages, therefore you must accept my conclusion" is too strong an assertion in such a case. Making that assertion while also asking someone else to provide the reference is the part that's poor form, and acknowledging that you hadn't actually seen the referenced material (quite a bit later, no less) doesn't really address that.

Your original statement was "The Stormlight World Guide states it, on pages 208-209. The same guide states Deepest Ones can manipulate stone like Stonewards. The lore in it and other RPG books is considered fully canon". Compare that with something like "I saw a reference that suggests there is an entry on page 209 of the Stormlight World Guide indicating that Fused can use Surges externally, but I haven't seen it myself/don't have the book handy to get the exact text. Can anyone verify, and post the reference if possible?". The former is generally not that well received here, and the latter much more so.

It's mildly similar to the earlier comment "I've seen statements that they [Singer gemhearts] are quite small, so small they are often not spotted among Singer remains.". I responded that I'd never seen such a statement and asked if you were aware of any I could take a look at, and it turns out there weren't any. The WoB we were both referencing said nothing at all about gemheart size and was specifically about something else, and that something else explained why the gemhearts were often missed. The size piece was invented from information not in the reference, the explanation the reference provided was missed, and then the reference was cited as though it specifically supported the initial comment. It's not a big deal, and I like getting into the weeds of details of the Cosmere books and tracking down information that is proven, theorized, wildly guessed at, or anything else. That's why I'm here. It's easy and common to overstate things, especially in a contentious thread. I simply find it more productive to nail down references early and reason from there, and when there is uncertainty or vagueness of evidence it's good to present that upfront, too, for the same reasons. When I'm unsure about what a reference specifically says or means, which happens often enough, I try to mention it immediately instead of assuming and committing to the assumption. It's about bringing the most reliable information to the surface as effectively as possible, not being as correct over others as possible as quickly as I can manage. For me it's about that, at least.

Take umbrage with whatever you find appropriate, but you claimed definitive proof without having seen that proof, which is the opposite of text-based discussions. Coppermind references are often good, but not perfect. Of course, take any approach to posting on the forum that you like.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

We know they can and we know they have notable Light. So, from my point of view, it is theories on limitations to them performing external feats that need evidence, not the other way around.

From my point of view: Fused can use Surges externally: Fact. Fused have a notable amount of Light: Fact. Fused have some other limitation: Theory.

Absence of evidence is certainly not evidence of absence, if you'll forgive a hackneyed phrase. But it's not evidence of presence either. That the Fused have some sort of limitation on their external use of Surges is conjecture is absolutely true. That the Fused often use their Surges externally and regularly carry extra gemstones to replenish their Light, but we just haven't ever seen any of that, is also conjecture. Not too parsimonious, either. That doesn't mean that it's incorrect or that you can't or shouldn't commit to it, but it maybe isn't surprising that others aren't persuaded by one conjecture in the same way that you are not persuaded by another.

Edited Tuesday at 11:59 PM by Returned

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Not what I was asking, sorry.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Yeah, you did. I meant examples of Fused when they should have used their Surges in external ways, but didn't. Heavenly Ones rarely are close to anything to Lash, and we see very little of many other Brands fighting.

Ah, I see.

Sure

1. The Masked One in OB should have used a flashbang to get rid of Chiri-Chiri
2. Deepest Ones in Urithiru should have sunk the soldiers feet into the stone rather than trying to grab them
3. Raboniel should have sealed the pillar off with stone in case the humans made it through the hallway at that same time
4. When Raboniel was infusing the nodes with voidlight she should have made a stone barrier to block Kaladin and continue infusing the nodes. She even had the voidlight on hand to make it happen
5. Wood shouldn't block the Deepest Ones in WaT, especially during the battle of Narak when they were trying to get into Narak 3 to get the Radiant's stormlight.
6. Deepest Ones should sink the defenders into the stone in WaT, even if the stonewards could dig them out, it would force them to use what little stormlight they had, while Deepest Ones could refuel easily from regals the plateau over.
7. Deepest Ones should have tried fighting the stonewards to weaken the walls they used to protect themselves from the Focused ones in WaT for the same reason. However all they did was enter the walls and try to attack from there.
8. Deepest Ones or Altered Ones should have tried making bridges between the plateaus
9. Abidi shouldn't have needed to steal the soulcaster in WaT to make a barrier of bronze. Either Deepest Ones making a stone barrier, or Altered ones with steel or stone should have been enough.
10. Flaming oil shouldn't have been a problem for the singers in Azimir, as they could turn it to water or sand.
11. Masked Ones should have been creating illusory armies all over the place in WaT. In particular the ships being sent to Theylenah failed because no Masked One was making illusory people inside of them, but Azimir and Narak should have had them as well.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Dalinar, in his own words, 'shrugged off a lost arm like a stubbed toe'. It didn't take very long at all. Armor is certainly useful, but it can fail, and then you're dead. It might surpass a lesser form of healing, but Light healing is incredibly powerful.

I recall Voidlight healing being slower from the RoW first chapters, but I suppose I should double check that.

However even if it only takes 5 seconds to regrow an arm, that's still five times longer than the opponent needs to cut off another one, or their head.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

The body glows because it holds Voidlight, just as a Radiant glows from holding Stormlight. Holding the Light is what provides the healing, strength, speed, etc.

I only recall the bodies of Heavenly Ones glowing, but that's because they are always using lashings

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

But only ever once the Fused were sealed.

Once they could stop coming back, but the Heralds often left without all of the Fused dying first.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

How can you consider that the stat block? It's clearly a lore blurb, outside the block. Details on how they serve Odium, saying they're unsettling, a Dawnchant translation of the name, certainly can't be. The canon policy, to my understanding, is thus: mechanics are not canon, specific events (because players can effect them) are not, the rest is. That text is clearly not mechanics. Right beside the stat block is a traditional place to put lore for creatures in many RPG books.

It includes tactics and similar strategies. While Brandon has said that the lore is accurate he hasn't listed what lines are considered lore or not. I'd consider the first few chapters of the world guide to be lore, but once the stat blocks start I consider it all mechanics.

[The White Drake]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

This is no less conjecture. Radiants and Fused certainly are analogues, but to suggest that they are similar in many (though not all) ways and so must be similar in this one, additional way isn't much of an argument. Especially when we know that they differ in other ways, such as unlimited passive benefits and no (or negligible) Voidlight loss, so they aren't 1:1 analogues. Again, I'm not ruling out the similar method, only indicating that we don't have any specific evidence in favor of it, either. I am in a state of equipoise.

I recognize this, but with a lack of evidence either way, the more likely one to me seems to be simply inhaling it.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

My comment was related to advancing the citation as decisive evidence without having, or having seen, the reference. "This book definitely states this, right here on these pages, therefore you must accept my conclusion" is too strong an assertion in such a case. Making that assertion while also asking someone else to provide the reference is the part that's poor form, and acknowledging that you hadn't actually seen the referenced material (quite a bit later, no less) doesn't really address that.

Your original statement was "The Stormlight World Guide states it, on pages 208-209. The same guide states Deepest Ones can manipulate stone like Stonewards. The lore in it and other RPG books is considered fully canon". Compare that with something like "I saw a reference that suggests there is an entry on page 209 of the Stormlight World Guide indicating that Fused can use Surges externally, but I haven't seen it myself/don't have the book handy to get the exact text. Can anyone verify, and post the reference if possible?". The former is generally not that well received here, and the latter much more so.

It's mildly similar to the earlier comment "I've seen statements that they [Singer gemhearts] are quite small, so small they are often not spotted among Singer remains.". I responded that I'd never seen such a statement and asked if you were aware of any I could take a look at, and it turns out there weren't any. The WoB we were both referencing said nothing at all about gemheart size and was specifically about something else, and that something else explained why the gemhearts were often missed. The size piece was invented from information not in the reference, the explanation the reference provided was missed, and then the reference was cited as though it specifically supported the initial comment. It's not a big deal, and I like getting into the weeds of details of the Cosmere books and tracking down information that is proven, theorized, wildly guessed at, or anything else. That's why I'm here. It's easy and common to overstate things, especially in a contentious thread. I simply find it more productive to nail down references early and reason from there, and when there is uncertainty or vagueness of evidence it's good to present that upfront, too, for the same reasons. When I'm unsure about what a reference specifically says or means, which happens often enough, I try to mention it immediately instead of assuming and committing to the assumption. It's about bringing the most reliable information to the surface as effectively as possible, not being as correct over others as possible as quickly as I can manage. For me it's about that, at least.

Take umbrage with whatever you find appropriate, but you claimed definitive proof without having seen that proof, which is the opposite of text-based discussions. Coppermind references are often good, but not perfect. Of course, take any approach to posting on the forum that you like.

Why are you pressing so hard on the 'you claimed it to firmly' front when I literally told you it was secondhand? I mean... look at your own post.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Making that assertion while also asking someone else to provide the reference is the part that's poor form

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Compare that with something like "I saw a reference that suggests there is an entry on page 209 of the Stormlight World Guide indicating that Fused can use Surges externally, but I haven't seen it myself/don't have the book handy to get the exact text. Can anyone verify, and post the reference if possible?". The former is generally not that well received here, and the latter much more so.

Your example of what you think I should have said literally includes the very thing you attack as poor form. I don't even know what you want at this point.

We're arguing over an argument about an argument at this point, and I don't think it's going anywhere.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The Masked One in OB should have used a flashbang to get rid of Chiri-Chiri

I don't believe we've ever seen Illumination used for a flashbang. It may not be known technique.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Deepest Ones in Urithiru should have sunk the soldiers feet into the stone rather than trying to grab them

Point.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Raboniel should have sealed the pillar off with stone in case the humans made it through the hallway at that same time

She could have just been waiting, but also point.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

When Raboniel was infusing the nodes with voidlight she should have made a stone barrier to block Kaladin and continue infusing the nodes. She even had the voidlight on hand to make it happen

She didn't mind getting slowed down. She wanted more time to study.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Wood shouldn't block the Deepest Ones in WaT, especially during the battle of Narak when they were trying to get into Narak 3 to get the Radiant's stormlight.

It's the same Surge, so it seems logical that the same limitation (having trouble with formerly living things), would apply however you use it.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

• Deepest Ones should sink the defenders into the stone in WaT, even if the stonewards could dig them out, it would force them to use what little stormlight they had, while Deepest Ones could refuel easily from regals the plateau over.
• Deepest Ones should have tried fighting the stonewards to weaken the walls they used to protect themselves from the Focused ones in WaT for the same reason. However all they did was enter the walls and try to attack from there.
• Deepest Ones or Altered Ones should have tried making bridges between the plateaus

They may have (though the thicker walls were advantageous for Deepest Ones). We don't see enough of them actually fighting to tell- only clips.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

• Abidi shouldn't have needed to steal the soulcaster in WaT to make a barrier of bronze. Either Deepest Ones making a stone barrier, or Altered ones with steel or stone should have been enough.
• Flaming oil shouldn't have been a problem for the singers in Azimir, as they could turn it to water or sand.

They were said not to have many Fused. We don't see any Altered Ones on that front. Most of their Fused come in reinforcements later, so stealing and using the Soulcaster could very well have simply been more expedient.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Masked Ones should have been creating illusory armies all over the place in WaT. In particular the ships being sent to Theylenah failed because no Masked One was making illusory people inside of them, but Azimir and Narak should have had them as well.

There aren't enough Masked Ones for the fleet sent at Thaylenah. But I do vaguely recall a mention of a battalion being lost at Narak because Masked Ones made an illusion that sent them running over into chasm. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: Shoot. I don't have my copy of Wind and Truth on hand. This will have to be memory-supported only until tomorrow.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I recall Voidlight healing being slower from the RoW first chapters, but I suppose I should double check that.

However even if it only takes 5 seconds to regrow an arm, that's still five times longer than the opponent needs to cut off another one, or their head.

You can keep moving though.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I only recall the bodies of Heavenly Ones glowing, but that's because they are always using lashings

I thought it was all of them. Hmm.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Once they could stop coming back, but the Heralds often left without all of the Fused dying first.

That would be impossible. They'd have to kill them all very rapidly. But they did always do it after a particularly huge battle, maximizing the number of dead Fused at the time of their return to Braize.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It includes tactics and similar strategies. While Brandon has said that the lore is accurate he hasn't listed what lines are considered lore or not. I'd consider the first few chapters of the world guide to be lore, but once the stat blocks start I consider it all mechanics.

That just doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, it's literally called a 'lore blurb', containing things like a Dawnchant name translation that can't possibly be mechanical. I suspect our views are irreconcilable on this point.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Every fight they've lost, then. Which is really the same list as I offered before, but perhaps especially in WaT. The Fused we're most familiar with have some options: Heavenly Ones could lash boulders as artillery, Masked Ones could sow confusion with free-ranging illusions, etc. The types we're less familiar with were almost certainly present in those WaT battles, but they either didn't use their external powers or their external powers weren't enough to win. Every tactic that makes Surges useful for Radiants in combat should also apply to the Fused with those same Surges, plus the Fused have far more experience, knowledge, and subtlety surrounding their powers.

It is possible that the books simply omit instances of them using their powers externally, maybe to hold those details back until later books. There is a frustrating amount of that. Possible, and maybe even likely, as we similarly don't see a lot of the powers from Radiant orders that haven't been featured prominently. But the Fused lost those battles regardless, despite their greater skill, so their Surges may not be as devastatingly effective as suggested. But maybe that's an army composition issue more than anything else, it's not like we got a ton of information on the troop ratios.

My view is on that second paragraph, as I have said. We only even see a Masked One once. One minor quibble: Heavenly Ones do use aerial rocks as artillery strikes, though we don't know if the stones themselves are Lashed or simply carried.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Absence of evidence is certainly not evidence of absence, if you'll forgive a hackneyed phrase. But it's not evidence of presence either. That the Fused have some sort of limitation on their external use of Surges is conjecture is absolutely true. That the Fused often use their Surges externally and regularly carry extra gemstones to replenish their Light, but we just haven't ever seen any of that, is also conjecture. Not too parsimonious, either. That doesn't mean that it's incorrect or that you can't or shouldn't commit to it, but it maybe isn't surprising that others aren't persuaded by one conjecture in the same way that you are not persuaded by another.

Correct. But what is not conjecture is they are capable of it.

(By which I mean external use of Surges and having a notable amount of Light. The 'carry and draw from gemstones' bit is still muddled).

Edited yesterday at 01:42 AM by The White Drake

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

I don't believe we've ever seen Illumination used for a flashbang. It may not be known technique.

We haven't, but if you have the ability to make it for over seven thousand years you probably should have figured it out.

14 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

She didn't mind getting slowed down. She wanted more time to study.

True, but she also wanted to win.

15 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

They were said not to have many Fused. We don't see any Altered Ones on that front.

We didn't see any on that front, but between Azimir and Narak there should have been several. And Azimir did have several fused, we see Taln killed dozens of them.

16 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

There aren't enough Masked Ones for the fleet sent at Thaylenah.

How so? You only need one per ship if they can make external illusions as easily as Lightweavers, and there were plenty of Skybreakers to get them there.

17 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

But I do vaguely recall a mention of a battalion being lost at Narak because Masked Ones made an illusion that sent them running over into chasm. I'll see if I can find it

That would be interesting

[The White Drake]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

We haven't, but if you have the ability to make it for over seven thousand years you probably should have figured it out.

Maybe, but our world spent thousands of years at more or less the same technological level. Do we even know if a illusion flashbang is possible?

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

We didn't see any on that front, but between Azimir and Narak there should have been several. And Azimir did have several fused, we see Taln killed dozens of them.

More Fused were arriving over time as reinforcements.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

How so? You only need one per ship if they can make external illusions as easily as Lightweavers, and there were plenty of Skybreakers to get them there.

That fleet was supposedly carrying tens of thousands of troops. With only 4,000 Fused total, and 9 Brands, if every last Masked One were sent there, each one would need to make illusions of roughly a hundred singers 24/7. I believe around half of Fused are mad, so half the number avaliable and thus double how many illusions each Masked One needs to make. Even if viable, that's a huge investment, when civilians in uniforms worked pretty well, and Odium wanted his Invested at Narak. As is, the fake attack on Thaylenah cost him practically nothing.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

That would be interesting

Alas, in case you missed my edit, I don't have the book right now, so finding it will need to wait until tomorrow at least.

Edited 22 hours ago by The White Drake

[Returned he/him]

45 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Why are you pressing so hard on the 'you claimed it to firmly' front when I literally told you it was secondhand? I mean... look at your own post.

You made the definitive claim initially, with the citation. Some 15 hours and two posts later you mention that it was secondhand. It's the initial piece, the definitive claim based on a reference which you had not read and with no indication that you hadn't read it yourself, that is the issue for the reasons I described. I don't see that I'm pressing it particularly hard, but you are repeatedly saying that you presented the qualification that you had only gotten the information secondhand. This would be relevant to what I'm saying if it had taken place at least alongside the initial claim. It's admirable that you did add the qualification later, but the better time to indicate that you had not personally seen the reference would have been when you first invoked it as definitive evidence of what you were saying.

48 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Your example of what you think I should have said literally includes the very thing you attack as poor form. I don't even know what you want at this point.

I tried to make it clear with your initial comment contrasted with the second, gentler example. The example I gave did not assert that your position was definitely correct because of this reference that you were personally familiar with, but instead stated what you believed the correct conclusion to be, why you believed it, and the valuable information that you had not actually seen the reference and did not have access to it, and were therefore asking someone if they could provide it. "This seems to answer the question, but I can't check it myself, could someone help check so that we can all know if it answers the question?" is different from "I'm right, you're wrong, the proof is exactly here... [someone challenges the reference]... oh, I've never seen it and am not providing it, will someone else provide it to prove me right, which I am, see my earlier post?". Without the "I'm right, you're wrong, here's the proof" piece when you have not seen the proof there would be no issue at all.

It seems like you saw the citation on Coppermind, presented it as decisive and reliable evidence because you trusted the citation, then when someone pushed back admitted that you hadn't actually read the reference and weren't sure the citation was accurate or said precisely what you claimed, and asked for someone else to check it. You then got hold of the reference yourself and posted it, which is great, and the whole forum is better off for it. But suggesting that you were upfront about not being sure of the reference, or that you did not deploy it without having actually read it, plainly misrepresents the record. It's not a huge deal, but it really seems like that's what happened and when you post about your umbrage of my "accusatory" tone and incredulity about what might be better forum practice I'll explain further. Which is exactly what's happened.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

My view is on that second paragraph, as I have said. We only even see a Masked One once. One minor quibble: Heavenly Ones do use aerial rocks as artillery strikes, though we don't know if the stones themselves are Lashed or simply carried.

100% possible, and a very reasonable piece of context to bring in I'm glad that you have brought it up and emphasized it. As for the artillery I'll have to re-read, is that in WaT? That's the SA book I've read the least, so my casual recall is poorest for it among the others.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

Correct. But what is not conjecture is they are capable of it.

(By which I mean external use of Surges and having a notable amount of Light. The 'carry and draw from gemstones' bit is still muddled).

I completely agree on both counts. I got a strong impression from your posts that you were arguing that they definitely do because they must and are capable of it, specifically rejecting that other considerations might be at play.

[The White Drake]

3 hours ago, Returned said:

You made the definitive claim initially, with the citation. Some 15 hours and two posts later you mention that it was secondhand. It's the initial piece, the definitive claim based on a reference which you had not read and with no indication that you hadn't read it yourself, that is the issue for the reasons I described. I don't see that I'm pressing it particularly hard, but you are repeatedly saying that you presented the qualification that you had only gotten the information secondhand. This would be relevant to what I'm saying if it had taken place at least alongside the initial claim. It's admirable that you did add the qualification later, but the better time to indicate that you had not personally seen the reference would have been when you first invoked it as definitive evidence of what you were saying.

Granted, first would have been best.

3 hours ago, Returned said:

I tried to make it clear with your initial comment contrasted with the second, gentler example. The example I gave did not assert that your position was definitely correct because of this reference that you were personally familiar with, but instead stated what you believed the correct conclusion to be, why you believed it, and the valuable information that you had not actually seen the reference and did not have access to it, and were therefore asking someone if they could provide it. "This seems to answer the question, but I can't check it myself, could someone help check so that we can all know if it answers the question?" is different from "I'm right, you're wrong, the proof is exactly here... [someone challenges the reference]... oh, I've never seen it and am not providing it, will someone else provide it to prove me right, which I am, see my earlier post?". Without the "I'm right, you're wrong, here's the proof" piece when you have not seen the proof there would be no issue at all.

It seems like you saw the citation on Coppermind, presented it as decisive and reliable evidence because you trusted the citation, then when someone pushed back admitted that you hadn't actually read the reference and weren't sure the citation was accurate or said precisely what you claimed, and asked for someone else to check it. You then got hold of the reference yourself and posted it, which is great, and the whole forum is better off for it. But suggesting that you were upfront about not being sure of the reference, or that you did not deploy it without having actually read it, plainly misrepresents the record. It's not a huge deal, but it really seems like that's what happened and when you post about your umbrage of my "accusatory" tone and incredulity about what might be better forum practice I'll explain further. Which is exactly what's happened.

Your issue is... my posting style is assertive? And, double-check the record, NOBODY challenged the reference (only a statement about canon policy in general).

Paragraph two: I suggest you go back and check that record over again. There was one point of 'pushback' to my claim (which I countered separately), and no reference to the book nor any request for the text. I would have had no reason to admit it was secondhand. And you're somehow trying to paint me as some sort of deceiver for it, and using toxic wording to boot. I mean, just look at this line you wrote as if coming from me.

'oh, I've never seen it and am not providing it, will someone else provide it to prove me right, which I am, see my earlier post?'

See my ACTUAL post

'I note, however, that I am getting this information secondhand. If someone could provide the exact text, that would be much appreciated.'

See how it's aggressive and accusatory? I might even say it's starting to get toxic. I must ask you to stop such behavior before we need a moderator.

Frankly this whole subject seems detrimental to continue, and is derailing things. This post addresses it more than the actual topic. Give it one more post if you must (for I know you collect last words like badges of honor (probably no one will get that reference but I couldn’t resist)), then we ought to shut it down.

3 hours ago, Returned said:

100% possible, and a very reasonable piece of context to bring in I'm glad that you have brought it up and emphasized it. As for the artillery I'll have to re-read, is that in WaT? That's the SA book I've read the least, so my casual recall is poorest for it among the others.

It's in WaT. Adolin arrives outside the dome to witness the aftermath, and there is a remark in the text about blast patterns showing Fused dropped rocks from high above.

3 hours ago, Returned said:

I completely agree on both counts. I got a strong impression from your posts that you were arguing that they definitely do because they must and are capable of it, specifically rejecting that other considerations might be at play.

I was arguing that they either do, or, if having the capability and choosing not to use it, it must be because they don't need to and so shouldn't be considered so much weaker because of it. Remember the whole thing was a point about them being worth more than a handful of hazekillers.

 

Update: Doing more research, it seems external Lashings do use up Heavenly One Light quickly (Sigzil in WaT chapter 67). This doesn't make sense to me since they must have plentiful Light to heal from Shardblade wounds, but perhaps their external efficiency is simply terrible.

4 hours ago, The White Drake said:

But I do vaguely recall a mention of a battalion being lost at Narak because Masked Ones made an illusion that sent them running over into chasm. I'll see if I can find it.

I searched all the Sigzil POVs and didn't find it, so it seems I was mistaken. I did find a statement that Masked Ones 'mostly' just change their own features. It seems evidence is piling up that some limitation keeps external powers being used much by the Fused (though I hold the lore blurbs as canon, and thus still assert they could do so in emergencies.)

Edited 20 hours ago by The White Drake

[Jult]

On 6/22/2026 at 10:25 PM, Frustration said:

While the lore is canonical the statblocks and mechanics are not.

Quote

Precise gameplay details are not where you should look for canonical content. Roleplaying games must balance simulation, narrative, and gameplay. Certain details, like the duration or Investiture costs of a particular Surgebinding technique, have been gamified to streamline your experience at the table.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/brotherwise/the-stormlight-archive-rpg/posts/4168574

I'd interpret this quote more as Brotherwise saying they had to assign numbers to things for the sake of the game - not that they're straight-up inventing abilities that Fused shouldn't canonically have.

e.g. In the game, Heavenly Ones have Lashings. And they're limited to 30 feet of movement. I'd assume it's canon that they have Lashings; the non-canon bit is the 30-foot limit.

Also, since Breathing Voidlight has come up a bunch:

Quote

Each stat block provides unique actions, free actions, and/or reactions for that adversary. Adversaries can also use the actions, free actions, and reactions listed in chapter 10 of the Stormlight Handbook; for example, any adversary can (and often should) use the Move action, the Gain Advantage action, and the Reactive Strike reaction. Rosharan adversaries with an Investiture pool can also use the Breathe Stormlight, Enhance, and Regenerate actions from chapter 5 of the Stormlight Handbook (though Fused and Regal characters breathe Voidlight from their infused spheres, not Stormlight).

-Stormlight World Guide

 

On 6/22/2026 at 10:25 PM, Frustration said:

There are a number of outright untrue mechanics, especially when it comes to surges. Making fire from soulcasting is not harder than making any other essence, soulcasting stone is harder than living beings etc. etc.

Soulcasting fire in the game isn't any harder than the other essences in terms of DC tests or Investiture cost. You just gain access to the Talent for Soulcasting Fire later than the other essences. I'd call that harder to learn, but not harder to execute once you know how to do it. Not sure we've seen enough Soulcasting in the books to know if this is the case.. But Shallan turned an entire ship into water and then shortly after failed to make a small stick into fire. So, I don't think it's unreasonable to say there could be some trick to flamecasting.

There's also a scene in OB where Jasnah Soulcasts pitch all over a Fused and then lights it. Which is cool, but also weird since she could Soulcast him into fire without the middle step (which she has done before to the muggers in WoK). I feel like this could also imply a trickiness to flamecasting.

The Soulcasting stone thing is sometimes true based on RoW Ars Arcanum (which you directed me to last time this came up):

Quote

...as stone is often among the most difficult of materials to work with in Soulcasting - even more difficult than living being depending on those beings' emotional, mental, and spiritual states.

But Brandon hasn't exactly been consistent on this:

Quote

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

<I cut the rest for length, they start talking about Mistborns - Jult>

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

[Frustration]

42 minutes ago, Jult said:

I'd interpret this quote more as Brotherwise saying they had to assign numbers to things for the sake of the game - not that they're straight-up inventing abilities that Fused shouldn't canonically have.

e.g. In the game, Heavenly Ones have Lashings. And they're limited to 30 feet of movement. I'd assume it's canon that they have Lashings; the non-canon bit is the 30-foot limit.

That's one way to interpret it.

Another would be that while they may have the ability to preform lashings on objects it's difficult for them, or otherwise restrictive to the point that they don't.

42 minutes ago, Jult said:

Also, since Breathing Voidlight has come up a bunch:

Quote

Each stat block provides unique actions, free actions, and/or reactions for that adversary. Adversaries can also use the actions, free actions, and reactions listed in chapter 10 of the Stormlight Handbook; for example, any adversary can (and often should) use the Move action, the Gain Advantage action, and the Reactive Strike reaction. Rosharan adversaries with an Investiture pool can also use the Breathe Stormlight, Enhance, and Regenerate actions from chapter 5 of the Stormlight Handbook (though Fused and Regal characters breathe Voidlight from their infused spheres, not Stormlight).

-Stormlight World Guide

 

That one is purely mechanics, and one that isn't even consistent in the RPG as those actions do not appear in the stat blocks.

42 minutes ago, Jult said:

Soulcasting fire in the game isn't any harder than the other essences in terms of DC tests or Investiture cost. You just gain access to the Talent for Soulcasting Fire later than the other essences. I'd call that harder to learn, but not harder to execute once you know how to do it. Not sure we've seen enough Soulcasting in the books to know if this is the case.. But Shallan turned an entire ship into water and then shortly after failed to make a small stick into fire. So, I don't think it's unreasonable to say there could be some trick to flamecasting.

In WoK page 501 Jasnah soulcasts fire with enough precision to burn words onto a page when she runs out of ink.

42 minutes ago, Jult said:

There's also a scene in OB where Jasnah Soulcasts pitch all over a Fused and then lights it. Which is cool, but also weird since she could Soulcast him into fire without the middle step (which she has done before to the muggers in WoK). I feel like this could also imply a trickiness to flamecasting.

Or that Fused are invested enough that she can't soulcast him directly, or that it's more effective to cover multiple enemies in oil rather than just soulcasting one of them into fire, as she burn that entire part of the battle field.

42 minutes ago, Jult said:

The Soulcasting stone thing is sometimes true based on RoW Ars Arcanum (which you directed me to last time this came up):

Quote

...as stone is often among the most difficult of materials to work with in Soulcasting - even more difficult than living being depending on those beings' emotional, mental, and spiritual states.

But Brandon hasn't exactly been consistent on this:

Quote

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

<I cut the rest for length, they start talking about Mistborns - Jult>

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

True, but Books trump WoBs

13 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Maybe, but our world spent thousands of years at more or less the same technological level. Do we even know if a illusion flashbang is possible?

Society and individuals are quite different.

As for can you flashbang? Yes, brightlight and loud noise will work, and you can do them, especially the light

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

[Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation]

But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. 

The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016)

 

13 hours ago, The White Drake said:

That fleet was supposedly carrying tens of thousands of troops. With only 4,000 Fused total, and 9 Brands, if every last Masked One were sent there, each one would need to make illusions of roughly a hundred singers 24/7. I believe around half of Fused are mad, so half the number avaliable and thus double how many illusions each Masked One needs to make. Even if viable, that's a huge investment, when civilians in uniforms worked pretty well, and Odium wanted his Invested at Narak. As is, the fake attack on Thaylenah cost him practically nothing.

It cost him Narak. The goal was to draw away Radiants and other armed forces from other battle fronts, which failed.

While he wanted his soldiers in Narak, flying a few Masked ones wouldn't have taken much time, and adding a few illusions would have kept the deception going longer. Simply putting stationary illusions on gemstones would have worked, which we know Lightweavers can do, especially where we know voidlight is easy to get and leaks much slower from gemstones.

With that you only need one Masked one per ship, or maybe even less if that's all they do, along with some regals to refill the voidlight.

Even if that only held the forces in Theylenah for another day or so that would probably have won Narak.

Edited 11 hours ago by Frustration

[Jult]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

That one is purely mechanics, and one that isn't even consistent in the RPG as those actions do not appear in the stat blocks.

That's the point of that paragraph. It's saying "we didn't copy and paste these to 500 stat blocks, but assume adversaries can do the following". You won't see any of those abilities on any stat block by design. Because they're universal.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

In WoK page 501 Jasnah soulcasts fire with enough precision to burn words onto a page when she runs out of ink.

I don't know what you're trying to demonstrate with this. I said it's just as easy to execute as the others, just probably trickier to learn. Maybe because fire is a bit unique in physical makeup? Or because most Cognitive aspects don't want to be fire? Either way I'd hope she mastered it by then. I believe she's already spoken the 4th Ideal at that point.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Or that Fused are invested enough that she can't soulcast him directly, or that it's more effective to cover multiple enemies in oil rather than just soulcasting one of them into fire, as she burn that entire part of the battle field.

Yeah, it might be that he's Invested. Good point. It was not multiple enemies though. Just one dude. She even politely cleaned up the pitch after (lol). I think there's another scene in RoW where she might do what you're describing. But I was referencing this one:

Spoiler

"Mother", Jasnah called, approaching where Fen and Navani stood by the guard post. "You need to rally the troops within the city and clear the enemy inside."

"We are working on it," Navani said. "But - Jasnah ! In the air -"

Jasnah raised an absent hand without looking, forming a wall of black pitch. A Fused crashed through it, and Jasnah Soulcast a flick of fire, sending the thing screaming and flailing, burning with a terrible smoke.

Jashan Soulcast the rest of the pitch on the wall to smoke, then continued forward.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

True, but Books trump WoBs

Agreed. But even the book says living things can be more difficult than stone depending on their mental state. I guess all I'm saying is that calling the RPG rules "outright untrue" is a bit harsh seeing as we don't have particularly detailed descriptions of how these things work in the books. We've got like 2 sentences from Khriss - who is also not infallible. 

[Frustration]

48 minutes ago, Jult said:

Yeah, it might be that he's Invested. Good point. It was not multiple enemies though. Just one dude. She even politely cleaned up the pitch after (lol). I think there's another scene in RoW where she might do what you're describing. But I was referencing this one:

Ah, I was thinking about the battle scene in RoW, where she turns all the air in the vicinity into oil, including inside people's mouths before lighting it.

[The White Drake]

6 hours ago, Jult said:

I'd interpret this quote more as Brotherwise saying they had to assign numbers to things for the sake of the game - not that they're straight-up inventing abilities that Fused shouldn't canonically have.

e.g. In the game, Heavenly Ones have Lashings. And they're limited to 30 feet of movement. I'd assume it's canon that they have Lashings; the non-canon bit is the 30-foot limit.

Exactly. Mechanics are, well, mechanical.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Society and individuals are quite different.

As for can you flashbang? Yes, brightlight and loud noise will work, and you can do them, especially the light

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

[Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation]

But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. 

The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016)

 

Still doesn't seem unreasonable to me that they wouldn't have figured it out. It's obvious to us because we know about them already. A technique that may seem obvious in retrospect but is to outside the box for someone to come up with easily.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

It cost him Narak. The goal was to draw away Radiants and other armed forces from other battle fronts, which failed.

While he wanted his soldiers in Narak, flying a few Masked ones wouldn't have taken much time, and adding a few illusions would have kept the deception going longer. Simply putting stationary illusions on gemstones would have worked, which we know Lightweavers can do, especially where we know voidlight is easy to get and leaks much slower from gemstones.

With that you only need one Masked one per ship, or maybe even less if that's all they do, along with some regals to refill the voidlight.

Even if that only held the forces in Theylenah for another day or so that would probably have won Narak.

One Masked One a ship is still a lot of Masked Ones, when there are enough ships to carry tens of thousands of troops. We don't know what the exact capacity of each vessel was, but that's tens of Masked Ones at the least, several hundred at the most, when there are only a couple hundred in existence grand total. Singer civilians in warform and uniform were enough to imitate troops, so I'm not sure why making the troops fully illusory would help either.

Also, the goal of drawing forces away didn't fail. It wasn't as effective as it could be, but an army remained in Thaylenah and the Radiants only were reassigned late in the fighting. Odium did win Narak militarily, just got outsmarted. Sigzil knows he can't hold even before the Listeners come into play.