The organization and power of Odium's army.

[Frustration]

They say that the fastest way to get threads doing battle analysis about Cosmere powers is to leave Frustration alone with time to think. I don't know if they actually say that, but it's probably true.

This will be a companion thread to both Frustration's Firepower Index, and The Hazekiller Coefficient. The difference is that this time I am analyzing a military structure rather than any particular individual.

As a quick recap for those who don't know Frustration's Firepower Index is a collection of threads analyzing the combat capabilities of various worlds and magic systems. The Hazekiller coefficient was an attempt to give ballpark estimates of the number of ordinary individuals needed to kill various invested individuals.

Originally this was just going to be about regals, but I've decided that it would be fun to do a full analysis of Odium's desolation armies, so before BAM took up the well of Control. I will go over each of the various units in Odium's army, and assign them a recommended strategy, as well as a Hazekiller coefficient. Some of this will involve mild amounts of speculation, so please bear with me.

 

The Unmade with few exceptions will not receive a hazekiller coefficient 

Spoiler

Ba-Ado-Mishram

It's hard to tell exactly what Mishram could do before she ascended, however we know she had the ability to heal warriors, which would enable them to continue fighting even after receiving terrible injuries.

Because of this her roll should be to locate important battles with strong fighters, particularly important fused or regals and continuously heal them so as to overcome the ability of the humans to kill them.

Hazekiller coefficient: Uncalculatable

 

Chemoarish

Obviously we don't know much about Chmoarish, but if you will allow me to theorize for a moment. Chemoarish is called the Dustmother, implying that she is capable of quite a bit of destruction. Now most often the Unmade don't do much themselves(if it weren't for Dai-Gonarthis), so I posit that she was capable of empowering either individuals or decay in some form so as to break things apart. Shouls that be the case then she should be used in any situation where destruction and siege equipment is required.

 

Dai-Gonarthis

Dai-Gonarthis is one of the more interesting Unmade for me as she has the ability to create elsegates, however the situations under which she can are so limited that it's rarely relevant. She was also somehow involved in the Scouring of Aimia, which likely didn't involve an Elsegate, so she can do other things.

 

Re-Shephir

 Re-Shephir's ability to create midnight essence makes her one of the most militarily significant of the unmade. She can create an unending wave of midnight horrors, to overwhelm anything. The strategy is simple, show up and unleash an army.

Hazekiller coefficient: Near-infinite

 

Sja-anat

In all honesty I consider Sja-anat to be one of the least impressive of the Unmade. Her ability to corrupt spren is interesting, but before the true desolation she could only corrupt lesser spren. She has the ability to make good spies as well as to rapidly communicate information. Her main role should be as an informant and a relay, collecting information and immediately reporting it to the forces most able to take advantage of it.

 

Yelig-nar

My personal favorite of the Unmade, Yelig-nar is perhaps the most individually dangerous of the Unmade, able to apply insane amounts of power in any particular fight. Anytime you need to break a defensive position, you send in Yelig-nar.

Hazekiller coefficient: add almost 400 to the host

 

Ashertmarn

While near mindless Ashertmarn possesses the ability to cause massive populations of entire cities to fall into riotous revelry, which can effectively destroy a city. However Radiants seem to be highly resistant to this. The most effective thing to do would be to target cities for weeks before attacking them as we saw in OB, or to stop them from reinforcing nearby locations.

 

Moelach

I actually still have no idea what this guy is supposed to do. He makes people dying speak about the future, but Odium can do that himself.  However Odium sent him to the shattered plains in WaT, so he must do something else.

 

Nergaoul

The thrill. Used correctly he can cause Odium's fighters to never break, or cause human forces to overcommit to a battle they have no way to win.

This technically could have a hazekiller bonus to thrill-lusted individuals but I'm not sure what.

 

Thunderclasts

These things can serve both as siege engines, walls/bridges, and as unstoppable offence, depending on the situation. Unfortunately there are only three of them.

Hazekiller coefficient: 4-5 thousand.

 

Fused

Spoiler

Heavenly Ones:

Heavenly Ones serve well as transportation, scouts. However their use as warriors is severely hampered by their insistence on 1v1 fighting. 

Hazekiller coefficient: 10

 

Devastating Ones:

We know next to nothing about them, but assuming their carapace breaks things apart on contact they should serve well as siege engines.

Hazekiller coefficient: ???

 

Flowing Ones:

 The Flowing Ones disappoint me, they are really rather weak, just ending up as faster warforms that can escape a grapple. I'd honestly rank some regals above them. However they do have their use, in that they can move freely in water or other terrain that would slow them down.

Hazekiller coefficient: 3-4

 

Magnified Ones:

Finally a Fused that lives up to their terrifying reputation. These can serve both as builders, defenders, and warriors. Their armor is enough to stop the vast majority of attacks, and their ability to create whatever weapon they so desire is insane.

Hazekiller coefficient: 2-3 hundred

 

Masked Ones: 

Masked Ones serve well as assassins, saboteurs, and spies. Their inability to replicate Radiant abilities, and the easy ability to prove that they aren't human via drawing blood or feeling their face greatly hinders their abilities.

Hazekiller coefficient: 2-3

 

Altered Ones:

Their ability to turn weapons that pierce them into harmless substances makes them largely immune to most bladed weapons, leaving blunt force the best way to deal with them. They are however best put to use as engineers, and builders.

Hazekiller coefficient: 4-5

 

Husked Ones:

Brandon did these guys dirty. The ability to teleport and instantly stab someone in the neck, allows you to easily infiltrate almost anywhere and win almost any 1v1, and escape from any situation. Easily one of the best powers.

Hazekiller coefficient: several hundred+

 

Deepest Ones:

They can go through stone, which is a cool way to escape and all, but it's not all that great when even mild planning from your opponents basically removes any advantage you had. They can serve as decent infiltrators and fighters, but not much else.

Hazekiller coefficient: 2-3

 

Focused Ones:

This in my mind is what all fused should have been. Powerful, terrifying, and unstoppable. Resistant to shardblades, and able to serve as anything from artillery to a formation breaker, to a 1v1 power fighter the Focused One can fill just about any role necessary for an army.

Hazekiller coefficient: 2-3 hundred  

 

Regals:

This is where I think that Odium's army really begins to take shape. Earlier units were for the most part unremarkable fighters that even mistings wouldn't struggle to take down with a few stellar standouts. Here however we begin to see the formation of an actual fighting force capable of taking over a world. I'd say that in the Desolations the regals were probably far more powerful than the fused, and might just have been enough to actually make Odium's forces a threat to the people of Roshar.

Spoiler

Stormform:

With the ability to electrocute anything they touch, and a good deal they can't Stormforms serve an incredible purpose in the Desolations for their ability to immobilize Radiants for the kill.

Spoiler

ShadowBlaze

If a gold Ferring got electrocuted, would he get paralyzed and/or heal and react normally?

Brandon Sanderson

So he gets electrocuted. You're asking does Cosmere healing prevent you from being stunned by a taser?

Huh, what a good question. I'm going to say, and I could contradict this, so this is Word of Brandon canon until I contradict it, you could still stun them with electrical stimulation of muscles, because it's not doing any harm and it's just how muscles normally work. So I think that's a good workaround.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Every battle anticipating Radiants should have several of these on standby. As well as their ability to attack at a distance and fry multiple enemies inside their armor at once. Their armor is almost as effective as plate, and they are easily as strong as 3-4 humans.

Hazekiller coefficient: around 12

 

Envoy form: 

Envoy's serve best as propogandists, interpreters, and potential codebreakers. They should rarely see frontline combat, however they can still fight if they need to.

Hazekiller coefficient: 2

 

Decayform:

Not much is known about these other than that the listeners are warned against them. The SARPG says they can drain vitality, but I'm highly skeptical of that.

 

Nightform:

Possessing the ability to see the future, however, it seems like more of the far future rather than something like atium, though that is a possibility. If they can't do an atium adjacent future sight I'm still not sure what purpose they have as Odium can see the future already.

Hazekiller coefficient: 2(if only prophetic foresight) 12+(if atium-like)

 

Smokeform:

This one is the one that most interests me, and we know next to nothing about them. All we know is that it's a form that "lies" is similar to human, or spren surges, and it is for slipping between men. Either it does exactly what Masked Ones do, or it allows them to turn invisible, or(and this might be my favorite) they can manipulate Connection to allow themselves to move unseen. Either way, it just shows how utterly pathetic the Masked Ones are.

 

Direform:

These are perhaps the single most offensively powerful of the regals, even stronger than several fused. In addition to their inbuilt obedience, Direform are stronger than any other regals, which are in turn stronger than warform, which itself is stronger than humans. I estimate that Direforms are easily 4-6 times stronger than humans, and are easily comparable to the Koloss of Scadrial. However, they also come with built in armor, which makes then incredibly difficult to kill. These should make up the vast majority of Odium's forces as basically every soldier could benefit greatly from being one.

Hazekiller coefficient: 6-10

 

Relayform:

Another form we know little about. The SARPG says that they're really fast, if so they shouldn't be used as scouts or messengers. Let the spren do that. Rather they should be a group of harriers, used to attack powerful radiants and retreat before they can be attacked in turn. In a group it would allow them to overpower their opponents easily.

Hazekiller coefficient: ???

Other singer forms exist, but really shouldn't be used, as forms of power are just better. If there aren't enough voidspren then warforms will suffice as weaker Direforms, however those warforms would make great hosts for Yelig-nar.

 

Overall rating: Odium's army is incredibly well rounded, having a decent capacity for just about everything. They do over rely on spies and informants, when they have plenty of ways to do just that. Odium instead should have invested more into leeching like abilities as the ability to counter other forms of investiture is severely lacking, and Raysium isn't near enough to make up for it. However I can confidently say that with the exception of Radiant forces this is by far the most dangerous army we have thus seen in the cosmere.

[Qianweilian He/him]

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Thunderclasts

These things can serve both as siege engines, walls/bridges, and as unstoppable offence, depending on the situation. Unfortunately there are only three of them.

Hazekiller coefficient: 4-5 thousand.

I feel like a couple of at crews might be able to destroy one of these. Hammers are given as options to fight them.

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Husked Ones:

Brandon did these guys dirty. The ability to teleport and instantly stab someone in the neck, allows you to easily infiltrate almost anywhere and win almost any 1v1, and escape from any situation. Easily one of the best powers.

Hazekiller coefficient: several hundred+

I think the hazekiller coef is too high. While I'll agree the teleportation is awesome, it isn't instantaneous, and it is very investiture intensive. I think around 10 with guns is a reasonable amount.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Stormform:

With the ability to electrocute anything they touch, and a good deal they can't Stormforms serve an incredible purpose in the Desolations for their ability to immobilize Radiants for the kill.

  Reveal hidden contents

ShadowBlaze

If a gold Ferring got electrocuted, would he get paralyzed and/or heal and react normally?

Brandon Sanderson

So he gets electrocuted. You're asking does Cosmere healing prevent you from being stunned by a taser?

Huh, what a good question. I'm going to say, and I could contradict this, so this is Word of Brandon canon until I contradict it, you could still stun them with electrical stimulation of muscles, because it's not doing any harm and it's just how muscles normally work. So I think that's a good workaround.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Every battle anticipating Radiants should have several of these on standby. As well as their ability to attack at a distance and fry multiple enemies inside their armor at once. Their armor is almost as effective as plate, and they are easily as strong as 3-4 humans.

Hazekiller coefficient: around 12

Agree, but I suspect the paralysis may not work on Radiants. Stormlight is very specifically described as giving energy and restlessness, desiring action. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some intent property that allowed a radiant to bypass electrocution.

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Smokeform:

This one is the one that most interests me, and we know next to nothing about them. All we know is that it's a form that "lies" is similar to human, or spren surges, and it is for slipping between men. Either it does exactly what Masked Ones do, or it allows them to turn invisible, or(and this might be my favorite) they can manipulate Connection to allow themselves to move unseen. Either way, it just shows how utterly pathetic the Masked Ones are.

What, like a Gray Man from the Wheel of Time?

38 minutes ago, Frustration said:

However I can confidently say that with the exception of Radiant forces this is by far the most dangerous army we have thus seen in the cosmere.

I think it is even more powerful due to the sheer numbers and versatility. The Radiants' numbers never get that high, but you could theoretically have over a million stormforms or direforms, if Retribution makes more Voidspren.

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

However I can confidently say that with the exception of Radiant forces this is by far the most dangerous army we have thus seen in the cosmere.

Hmm, I don't know. . . a quarter of a million Ruin-controlled Koloss are pretty tough to beat.

Not to mention that more can be made as long as you can get more iron (or recycle spikes) and have more bodies.

[Frustration]

15 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I feel like a couple of at crews might be able to destroy one of these. Hammers are given as options to fight them.

They were also Dustbringer squires, so they can use division to start breaking the body apart, and hammers to complete the process.

15 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I think the hazekiller coef is too high. While I'll agree the teleportation is awesome, it isn't instantaneous, and it is very investiture intensive. I think around 10 with guns is a reasonable amount.

The humans of Roshar during the desolations didn't have guns. Really no one in the Cosmere did at that time.

15 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Agree, but I suspect the paralysis may not work on Radiants. Stormlight is very specifically described as giving energy and restlessness, desiring action. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some intent property that allowed a radiant to bypass electrocution.

See WoB, the muscles are moving, and doing so correctly.

15 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

What, like a Gray Man from the Wheel of Time?

Exactly like a Gray Man.

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Hmm, I don't know. . . a quarter of a million Ruin-controlled Koloss are pretty tough to beat.

Not to mention that more can be made as long as you can get more iron (or recycle spikes) and have more bodies.

A direform is just as strong if not stronger, while also being better armored, and far smarter. And you only need one Singer to make one, not five.

[Qianweilian He/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They were also Dustbringer squires, so they can use division to start breaking the body apart, and hammers to complete the process.

Still, I feel explosives could do it.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The humans of Roshar during the desolations didn't have guns. Really no one in the Cosmere did at that time.

I mean, both Taldain and Scadrial are candidates for having guns at the time. Maybe not the first desolation, but certainly some of the latter ones.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Still, I feel explosives could do it.

Again, no one on Roahar had explosives at that time. And stone is really hard to break apart without some form of penetration. You don't put dynamite next to a cliff, you dig a hole into the cliff and put the dynamite inside.

13 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

I mean, both Taldain and Scadrial are candidates for having guns at the time. Maybe not the first desolation, but certainly some of the latter ones.

No, gunpowder was a recent development on Scadrial when TLR took up the well of Acsension. That's over 3,000 years after the last desolation.

And while it's difficult to date White Sand(in which gunpowder was still in its infancy). Based on the fact that Autonomy is worried about Sacdrial's technological developments they can't be too far ahead.

And neither of those worlds is Roshar.

[Through the Living Potato He/Him]

On 5/21/2026 at 5:04 PM, Frustration said:

Masked Ones: 

Masked Ones serve well as assassins, saboteurs, and spies. Their inability to replicate Radiant abilities, and the easy ability to prove that they aren't human via drawing blood or feeling their face greatly hinders their abilities.

Hazekiller coefficient: 2-3

I feel as though Masked Ones are very situational. Yes, you can easily tell they aren’t human by touching them, but how often is someone going to do that? Now, if there were a large number of reported Masked Ones, yes there will likely be checks and tests, those will likely be limited to the middle and high class, with those beneath being too unimportant to check. So I think reasonably, the Masked Ones could infiltrate, say, a city by posing as a refugee in a large crowd, to lower the possibility of being caught. Then once inside, when checks are likely (as far as I’m aware) less common, they could impersonate someone more important, as to gain more information. And if caught, the masked ones could revert to their usual shifting form, which has been described as “unsettling” even to the Fused. Do they have much combat application? No. But that doesn’t seem to be why Odium made them. No, this has nothing to do with the “Power Level of Odium’s Army,” but I am saying they have their uses.

[Frustration]

On 5/22/2026 at 5:37 PM, Through the Living Potato said:

I feel as though Masked Ones are very situational. Yes, you can easily tell they aren’t human by touching them, but how often is someone going to do that? Now, if there were a large number of reported Masked Ones, yes there will likely be checks and tests, those will likely be limited to the middle and high class, with those beneath being too unimportant to check. So I think reasonably, the Masked Ones could infiltrate, say, a city by posing as a refugee in a large crowd, to lower the possibility of being caught. Then once inside, when checks are likely (as far as I’m aware) less common, they could impersonate someone more important, as to gain more information

I have to disagree, if I was planning to deal with them I would require everyone entering to undergo a face test, doubly so for any sort of high importance areas or people. It takes less than 5 seconds to test someone, and there's little reason not to. After a few months during wartime everyone gets used to starting conversations that way, and they lose all effectiveness.

[The White Drake]

I believe you massively undervalue some varieties of Fused. Without any Surges whatsoever, their extreme experience and capacity to heal should make just one an equal to ten men, and some of those Surges, while not necessarily the best in a 1v1, are nasty on the battlefield.

Flowing Ones: Far more than just fast warforms. They can apply their Surge to other objects, and so disable the movement of entire groups, making them easy prey. A single one could topple an entire cavalry charge.

Deepest Ones: Far harder to counter than you surmise. They can pick a target, ambush, kill, and withdraw. Then do it again, almost without limit. Men running around fighting for their lives are not able to keep an eye on the ground 24/7. Battle is chaos, so while a well-built, calm formation might handle them, there will always be somewhere they can find to kill.

Masked Ones: Similar to Deepest Ones. They can switch faces and knife soldiers from behind, then escape in the chaos and do it again. I really don't see how you can rate them at a 2-3 when we see one take down four guards without breaking a sweat. Both Masked Ones and Deepest Ones will work, in practice, like Husked Ones, getting a kill or two before fleeing away and then repeating the whole cycle.

Heavenly Ones: The fact that they were raiding Kholinar's walls for weeks and never lost a single member tells you ten soldiers won't get a kill on one of these. They only fight 1v1 in the air. They're fine striking at ground troops, and can drop rocks for aerial attacks as powerful as catapult stones.

Altered Ones: Blunt force will hardly work when they can turn the weapon not just to something not sharp, but actual dust. Practically unkillable so long as they have Voidlight, and we see the sorts of things Transformation can do in battle when Jasnah fights. Dozens of oil-drenched burning enemies is only one example.

Frankly I cannot see any situation where your average Misting could beat any of these at all, save for a Coinshot against a Masked One with a serious terrain advantage (plenty of anchors, and no cover for the Masked One or people to imitate).

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I believe you massively undervalue some varieties of Fused. Without any Surges whatsoever, their extreme experience and capacity to heal should make just one an equal to ten men, and some of those Surges, while not necessarily the best in a 1v1, are nasty on the battlefield

I don't think you understand the purpose of the Hazekiller coefficient(fair as I described it in another thread).

It's not about the battlefield necessarily. It's to decide how many prepared individuals are needed to equal any particular foe. More of a unit of measurement than of battlefield impact. Thus I do not consider their ability to support or be supported by allies in the hazekiller coefficient. This applies to all of your further objections.

However even then I still will disagree and say that I am if anything being generous to the Fused here.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Flowing Ones: Far more than just fast warforms. They can apply their Surge to other objects, and so disable the movement of entire groups, making them easy prey. A single one could topple an entire cavalry charge.

A lot of your objections are about using external applications of the surges which they rarely use(we haven't seen it since OB), and even when they do they don't have the voidlight to do it often, or over large areas as would need to be the case here. What you describe is far closer to what an edgedanncer could do than a flowing one.

Even accepting that they could do this, that still only leaves them on the ground, and without any particular injury. While a Flowing one has great maneuverability, they lack any real offensive power.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Deepest Ones: Far harder to counter than you surmise. They can pick a target, ambush, kill, and withdraw. Then do it again, almost without limit. Men running around fighting for their lives are not able to keep an eye on the ground 24/7. Battle is chaos, so while a well-built, calm formation might handle them, there will always be somewhere they can find to kill.

They also have no carapace other than on their privates, and with the exception of a few clawed ones we saw in WaT they lack weapons. Sure they can grab someone's leg, but that doesn't equal a kill. And while their opponents can wear armor and protect themselves, the deepest ones are vulnerable and can quite easily be cut apart.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Masked Ones: Similar to Deepest Ones. They can switch faces and knife soldiers from behind, then escape in the chaos and do it again. I really don't see how you can rate them at a 2-3 when we see one take down four guards without breaking a sweat. Both Masked Ones and Deepest Ones will work, in practice, like Husked Ones, getting a kill or two before fleeing away and then repeating the whole cycle.

They took down four guards who didn't even know they existed. In RoW it's mentioned that they do little more than sabotage their supplies in other locations, as basic precautions make them almost a non-issue.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Heavenly Ones: The fact that they were raiding Kholinar's walls for weeks and never lost a single member tells you ten soldiers won't get a kill on one of these. They only fight 1v1 in the air. They're fine striking at ground troops, and can drop rocks for aerial attacks as powerful as catapult stones.

The wall guard also didn't lose anyone. The attacks were not meant to be to the death, merely to break morale, and thus do not serve as a good basis. They also don't drop rocks as they don't have the voidlight necessary for so many lashings.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Altered Ones: Blunt force will hardly work when they can turn the weapon not just to something not sharp, but actual dust. Practically unkillable so long as they have Voidlight, and we see the sorts of things Transformation can do in battle when Jasnah fights. Dozens of oil-drenched burning enemies is only one example.

If they can soulcast objects outside of their body it will consume their voidlight which they don't have the ability to spare. And even if they did have the easy ability to do so simply covering the weapon in something non-soulcastable like aluminum will do the job just fine.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Frankly I cannot see any situation where your average Misting could beat any of these at all, save for a Coinshot against a Masked One with a serious terrain advantage (plenty of anchors, and no cover for the Masked One or people to imitate).

Well considering that 11/16 mistings have powers that are almost if not completely useless in battle you are correct, just not in the way you think.

[The White Drake]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

A lot of your objections are about using external applications of the surges which they rarely use(we haven't seen it since OB), and even when they do they don't have the voidlight to do it often, or over large areas as would need to be the case here. What you describe is far closer to what an edgedanncer could do than a flowing one.

We only see a Flowing One once. However it does indeed use an external application, showing that they can, and we have no reason to believe they would be less efficient at it than Edgedancers. I have no idea where you got the idea that they 'don't have the voidlight'- a Fused's ability to carry infused sphere is identical to that of a human. By all logical reasoning, they should perform such feats as well as or even better than (due to superior expertise) an Edgedancer.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They also have no carapace other than on their privates, and with the exception of a few clawed ones we saw in WaT they lack weapons. Sure they can grab someone's leg, but that doesn't equal a kill. And while their opponents can wear armor and protect themselves, the deepest ones are vulnerable and can quite easily be cut apart.

The floor is their armor. They can emerge only when they have the drop on someone, arguably making them the hardest to kill of all the Fused. No carapace and limited Light make them vulnerable if caught, but you need to catch them first.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They took down four guards who didn't even know they existed. In RoW it's mentioned that they do little more than sabotage their supplies in other locations, as basic precautions make them almost a non-issue.

Only one guard was killed by surprise. Even without any battlefield conditions, any Fused is still an impossibly experienced, enhanced, healing elite.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The wall guard also didn't lose anyone. The attacks were not meant to be to the death, merely to break morale, and thus do not serve as a good basis. They also don't drop rocks as they don't have the voidlight necessary for so many lashings.

Didn't lose anyone? We see a man get pinned to the wall and thrown off it, and Kaladin requests to go help the wounded. We also see in Wind and Truth that they do indeed drop rocks- Adolin comments on the blast patterns of them doing so. They can carry Light just like Radiants do, and Kaladin has enough to throw a giant boulder and then some.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

If they can soulcast objects outside of their body it will consume their voidlight which they don't have the ability to spare. And even if they did have the easy ability to do so simply covering the weapon in something non-soulcastable like aluminum will do the job just fine.

Once again, why are you assuming Fused have less Voidlight than Radiants? They should have just as much and be even more efficient with it. Only Husked Ones and Deepest Ones are limited in their ability to carry gemstones. And Ralkalest is rare and expensive in the current era. A counter, but not a 'you don't matter anymore' one.

A lot of your reasoning is based off the assumption Fused have limited Light, but where does this assumption come from?

Edited Monday at 11:51 PM by The White Drake

[Frustration]

55 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

A lot of your reasoning is based off the assumption Fused have limited Light, but where does this assumption come from?

The fact that they simply don't carry it.

With the exception of Lezian the Fused never inhale Voidlight from gemstones. When Kaladin fights the one in RoW and wounds them to the point that they can't heal with the voidlight they have he simply lets them go. If they carried voidlight that fused could simply have resupplied and joined the fight again, but they didn't. Instead they remained in battle with no extra voidlight the entire time.

And if they could use voidlight the way you suggest we should see it within the books, they should actually fight the way the Radiants do, because with the exception of the magnified, husked and focused ones, the Radiant surges are just better. However this does not happen. We don't see Deepest ones manipulating rocks, we don't see Masked ones causing flashbangs, we don't see Altered ones creating massive bubbles of oil and burning armies with them.

55 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

We only see a Flowing One once. However it does indeed use an external application, showing that they can, and we have no reason to believe they would be less efficient at it than Edgedancers. I have no idea where you got the idea that they 'don't have the voidlight'- a Fused's ability to carry infused sphere is identical to that of a human. By all logical reasoning, they should perform such feats as well as or even better than (due to superior expertise) an Edgedancer.

On a single gemstone, not on an entire battlefield, and again, even assuming they could do so, that doesn't kill anyone, and they lack stopping power.

55 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

The floor is their armor. They can emerge only when they have the drop on someone, arguably making them the hardest to kill of all the Fused. No carapace and limited Light make them vulnerable if caught, but you need to catch them first.

They have to leave the stone to be any threat, just grabbing their legs does them no good.

And it doesn't take a lot to be threatening with a weapon, even an unprepared swing could easily take their arm off.

Spoiler

https://odysee.com/@Shadiversity:d/medieval-swords-are-way-more-deadly-than:7

 

55 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Only one guard was killed by surprise.

Yes, and the others had no idea what they were fighting.

55 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Didn't lose anyone? We see a man get pinned to the wall and thrown off it, and Kaladin requests to go help the wounded. We also see in Wind and Truth that they do indeed drop rocks- Adolin comments on the blast patterns of them doing so. They can carry Light just like Radiants do, and Kaladin has enough to throw a giant boulder and then some.

I will have to reread that section of WaT, but if I recall correctly those were rocks they carried, not boulders they had lashed.

59 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

And Ralkalest is rare and expensive in the current era. A counter, but not a 'you don't matter anymore' one.

The Azish have enough to cover the entire palace room with it, and soulcasting makes it really cheap and available.

[The White Drake]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The fact that they simply don't carry it.

With the exception of Lezian the Fused never inhale Voidlight from gemstones. When Kaladin fights the one in RoW and wounds them to the point that they can't heal with the voidlight they have he simply lets them go. If they carried voidlight that fused could simply have resupplied and joined the fight again, but they didn't. Instead they remained in battle with no extra voidlight the entire time.

What. You think the Voidlight a Fused can hold in itself can allow regeneration from multiple Shardblade wounds? We know for a fact they can breath in Voidlight and that they can carry it. The damage dealt to get past a Heavenly One's healing doubtless included enough to get them to use up that which they carry, same as harming Radiants. Nothing ever says they do not carry it, so you're going to need to back up your claim with more than it not being a focus. Them not doing so would be ridiculous. I would think them doing so is so obvious it doesn't even need mentioning- and the fact that it is called out Husked Ones cannot, something which wouldn't be bothered with if none of them did, backs this up. Nor did that Fused you reference remain in the battle as you claim.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

And if they could use voidlight the way you suggest we should see it within the books, they should actually fight the way the Radiants do, because with the exception of the magnified, husked and focused ones, the Radiant surges are just better. However this does not happen. We don't see Deepest ones manipulating rocks, we don't see Masked ones causing flashbangs, we don't see Altered ones creating massive bubbles of oil and burning armies with them.

We DO see it within the books. We do, in fact, see Altered Ones using Transformation exactly the way combat Soulcasters do. We see Heavenly Ones Lash other people and Deepest Ones use their Surge to make things slippery in exactly the same way Edgedancers do. It is confirmed Masked Ones can make external illusions. It is confirmed Deepest Ones can manipulate rock exactly like Radiants. These are not just a 'suggestions'- it is a fact that they are capable of all this.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

On a single gemstone, not on an entire battlefield, and again, even assuming they could do so, that doesn't kill anyone, and they lack stopping power.

A dozen men slipping around on the ground can be killed easily, and as for stopping power, it has the greatest literal stopping of all, preventing enemy movement.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They have to leave the stone to be any threat, just grabbing their legs does them no good.

And it doesn't take a lot to be threatening with a weapon, even an unprepared swing could easily take their arm off.

Does no good? The tendons are down there, and a man with a cut tendon is out of the fight, and possibly his career as a soldier.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I will have to reread that section of WaT, but if I recall correctly those were rocks they carried, not boulders they had lashed.

Allow me to reference my original claim.

'and can drop rocks for aerial attacks as powerful as catapult stones.'

I don't know why you assumed they were Lashed (though they may have been to make them easier to carry), but you are arguing against a position I don't even hold, and that doesn't change the lethality in any case.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The Azish have enough to cover the entire palace room with it, and soulcasting makes it really cheap and available.

You have some exaggeration there. Soulcasting makes it affordable enough nations can afford protected rooms, but they hardly make anything 'cheap and available' on a large scale. If they did, there would be serious inflation with anything they could make, and we know there isn't, since they can still be used to make valuable mineral deposits. Fused are armed with Ralkalest weapons, and, as is relevant to your original claim, hazekillers may be, but it's not something the common foot soldier will have. Besides, they can still heal and transform the air and terrain.

Edited Tuesday at 01:26 AM by The White Drake

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

What. You think the Voidlight a Fused can hold in itself can allow regeneration from multiple Shardblade wounds? We know for a fact they can breath in Voidlight and that they can carry it. The damage dealt to get past a Heavenly One's healing doubtless included enough to get them to use up that which they carry, same as harming Radiants. Nothing ever says they do not carry it, so you're going to need to back up your claim with more than it not being a focus. Them not doing so would be ridiculous. I would think them doing so is so obvious it doesn't even need mentioning- and the fact that it is called out Husked Ones cannot, something which wouldn't be bothered with if none of them did, backs this up.

@The White Drake you've been in this community for 11 days, so I'm going to assume you just aren't used to this yet. However your tone is quite aggressive an accusatory here, and I'd like to ask you to please be mindful of that.

Addressing your point: Yes I am aware that shardblade wounds require a lot of voidlight to heal, however the fused should be able to find another fused who is carrying voidlight to heal up. Exactly what Kaladin or any other Windrunner would do in this situation. And no Husked ones specifically not being able to carry voidlight is important as unlike the other Fused they use up their voidlight. Which doesn't make sense to me as the entire point of the Fused is that they don't consume voidlight when using their normal surges, but whatever. Which works perfectly fine with my model.

9 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

We do, in fact, see Altered Ones using Transformation exactly the way combat Soulcasters do.

The only time I can think of is Raboniel soulcasting a spear once it had pierced her side, but if you're thinking of something else I'd like to hear it.

11 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

It is confirmed Masked Ones can make external illusions. These are not just a 'suggestions'- it is a fact that they are capable of all this, and do it.

Where do we see them do that?

11 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

A dozen men slipping around on the ground can be killed easily, and as for stopping power, it has the greatest literal stopping of all, preventing enemy movement.

Hunting down one of them gives the others the ability to escape the slicked ground and stand up, armor allows the one on the ground great survivability, and all of that uses up voidlight.

13 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

oes no good? The tendons are down there, and a man with a cut tendon is out of the fight, and possibly his career as a soldier.

What are they cutting their tendons with? As far as I can tell only a subset of Deepest Ones have claws, the ones we saw in RoW had normal hands, fingernails can be painful but won't cause real damage.

And even basic armor like gambeson makes that far more difficult even for the subset of deepest ones that have claws.

14 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Allow me to reference my original claim.

'and can drop rocks for aerial attacks as powerful as catapult stones.'

I don't know why you assumed they were Lashed (though they may have been to make them easier to carry), but you were arguing against a position I didn't even hold, and that doesn't change the lethality in any case.

My apologies, I misunderstood you.

While yes dropped stones are good, they have no aiming, and are thus well suited to stationary targets or structures, not mobile soldiers.

15 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

You have some exaggeration there. Soulcasting makes it affordable enough nations can afford protected rooms, but they hardly make anything 'cheap and available' on a large scale. If they did, there would be serious inflation with anything they could make, and we know there isn't, since they can still be used to make valuable mineral deposits. Fused are armed with Ralkalest weapons, and, as is relevant to your original claim, hazekillers may be, but it's not something the common foot soldier will have. Besides, they can still heal and transform the air and terrain.

Again, I am going based off of Hazekillers, not just the normal soldier, and yes even a normal soldier can get some.

As we see in WoK soulcasters can make entire buildings, only a single aluminum block that big gives you more than enough material to make a mace for your common foot soldier.

[The White Drake]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

@The White Drake you've been in this community for 11 days, so I'm going to assume you just aren't used to this yet. However your tone is quite aggressive an accusatory here, and I'd like to ask you to please be mindful of that.

Your name is proving accurate, what can I say. Apologies.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Addressing your point: Yes I am aware that shardblade wounds require a lot of voidlight to heal, however the fused should be able to find another fused who is carrying voidlight to heal up. Exactly what Kaladin or any other Windrunner would do in this situation. And no Husked ones specifically not being able to carry voidlight is important as unlike the other Fused they use up their voidlight. Which doesn't make sense to me as the entire point of the Fused is that they don't consume voidlight when using their normal surges, but whatever. Which works perfectly fine with my model.

Other Fused do use up their Voidlight- just not for internal applications. We see them apply it in ways that expend it a number of times. I stand by that you will need hard evidence they don't carry Light.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The only time I can think of is Raboniel soulcasting a spear once it had pierced her side, but if you're thinking of something else I'd like to hear it.

She also Soulcast something poisonous to blow into his face. The only time we ever see an Altered One use her powers (save for the huge outlier, corrupting the Sibling), and she's doing it just like a Radiant.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Where do we see them do that?

The Stormlight World Guide states it, on pages 208-209. The same guide states Deepest Ones can manipulate stone like Stonewards. The lore in it and other RPG books is considered fully canon.

I did originally think some Fused were innately different in how they could use their Surges, but it appears I was mistaken. Their different uses just come from incredible expertise.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What are they cutting their tendons with? As far as I can tell only a subset of Deepest Ones have claws, the ones we saw in RoW had normal hands, fingernails can be painful but won't cause real damage.

And even basic armor like gambeson makes that far more difficult even for the subset of deepest ones that have claws.

Those ones did have claws, or at least nails they were cutting people's throats with. Armor doesn't help when they strike a vulnerable spot, such as the tendon.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

My apologies, I misunderstood you.

While yes dropped stones are good, they have no aiming, and are thus well suited to stationary targets or structures, not mobile soldiers.

They have from-high-above aiming, which isn't much good against a single squadron, but works just fine in a full battle.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Again, I am going based off of Hazekillers, not just the normal soldier, and yes even a normal soldier can get some.

As we see in WoK soulcasters can make entire buildings, only a single aluminum block that big gives you more than enough material to make a mace for your common foot soldier.

Yet they never do. Your point about the quantity Soulcasters can produce is valid, so perhaps there is another reason- Ralkalest is not very good as a metal. Breaks easily, lacks weight, and so forth. Even just a coating might break off if you hit something hard with it. Perhaps we don't see legions with it for the same reason Era 1 mistborn guards still have metal armor- it's not worth the lessened effectiveness against regular troops when you can arm just Invested response squads with it.

Edited Tuesday at 01:49 AM by The White Drake

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Other Fused do use up their Voidlight- just not for internal applications. We see them apply it in ways that expend it a number of times.

Other than a few limited times in OB, I can't think of any.

11 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

She also Soulcast something poisonous to blow into his face. The only time we ever see an Altered One use her powers (save for the huge outlier, corrupting the Sibling), and she's doing it just like a Radiant.

Not really. Those were both substances inside of her body, nothing outside of it. Both fit quite nicely into a model where they either cannot or do not use their surges externally.

12 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

The Stormlight World Guide states it, on pages 208-209. The same guide states Deepest Ones can manipulate stone like Stonewards. The lore in it and other RPG books is considered fully canon.

I did originally think some Fused were innately different in how they could use their Surges, but it appears I was mistaken. Their different uses just come from incredible expertise.

While the lore is canonical the statblocks and mechanics are not.

Quote

Precise gameplay details are not where you should look for canonical content. Roleplaying games must balance simulation, narrative, and gameplay. Certain details, like the duration or Investiture costs of a particular Surgebinding technique, have been gamified to streamline your experience at the table.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/brotherwise/the-stormlight-archive-rpg/posts/4168574

There are a number of outright untrue mechanics, especially when it comes to surges. Making fire from soulcasting is not harder than making any other essence, soulcasting stone is harder than living beings etc. etc.

37 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Those ones did have claws, or at least nails they were cutting people's throats with. Armor doesn't help when they strike a vulnerable spot, such as the tendon.

If you fight people who attack your legs not wearing armor on your legs is a bad idea. Gambeson is a historical armor made out of linen. It's good enough to stop swords dead. No reason at all for everyone to not wear it.

[The White Drake]

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Other than a few limited times in OB, I can't think of any.

Any external use expends Voidlight.

I was looking for something else, but found this WoB.

Argent

I've been trying to figure out how the Fused and the Regals get their Voidlight. Heavenly Ones seem to be able to levitate indefinitely unless they heal, which presumably expends their Light. But then the Pursuer needs to go get spheres. And then there's the Song of Prayer, which I don't understand at all.

Brandon Sanderson

All of the Fused have an active and an inactive way to use their Voidlight. For some of them, one is way more dramatic than the other. So you should be watching for the different brands of Fused to each have that. If they don't use it actively, they get a passive effect. And if they do use it actively, it runs out. So watch for that with them.

They each only have one power, as opposed to Knights Radiant, but they have the staying power of consistency depending on what they are.

The Song of Prayer. Let's just say that Odium likes his Fused being reliant upon him. Does that make sense?

Argent

I think it does. My assumption has been that anyone can just sing the song and ask for Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is true, because most of the time he's not going to be paying direct attention, and it's just going to... yeah.

 

Unfortunately he doesn't state if they carry or not, but I am afraid it demolishes your dynamic of non-Light-expending Fused. We also have WoBs stating Fused have less access to Investiture than Radiants of the Fourth Ideal, implying they do have as much as Radiants as lower Ideals. The only way I can see that working is if they carry. I suppose they could just be able to hold an insane amount, but that still means they don't have a lack of Light, which was my original point.

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not really. Those were both substances inside of her body, nothing outside of it. Both fit quite nicely into a model where they either cannot or do not use their surges externally.

The sword turned to dust 'as it struck her', so it may not have cut deep enough to truly be inside her body. Besides which, we know they (most Fused in general) can. The model you propose does not seem to fit with what we see in the books, the lore from the RPG, or the few WoBs I've found related thus far (though I haven't found much as of yet in that last category). Can you tell me where you got said model from?

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

While the lore is canonical the statblocks and mechanics are not.

Quote

Precise gameplay details are not where you should look for canonical content. Roleplaying games must balance simulation, narrative, and gameplay. Certain details, like the duration or Investiture costs of a particular Surgebinding technique, have been gamified to streamline your experience at the table.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/brotherwise/the-stormlight-archive-rpg/posts/4168574

There are a number of outright untrue mechanics, especially when it comes to surges. Making fire from soulcasting is not harder than making any other essence, soulcasting stone is harder than living beings etc. etc.

I am aware. The things I pointed out do not appear to fall into that category. It is worth noting the same book calls out Magnified Ones and Husked Ones as unable to use their Surge like Radiants do, as an exception to a general rule.

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If you fight people who attack your legs not wearing armor on your legs is a bad idea. Gambeson is a historical armor made out of linen. It's good enough to stop swords dead. No reason at all for everyone to not wear it.

I am no armor expert, so I will yield this. Still, they are pretty nasty on a battlefield, where they can strike with surprise at will. Thousands of years of experience should leave them good at finding weak spots in armor. But against hazekillers, not so simple.

Edited Tuesday at 02:55 AM by The White Drake

[Returned he/him]

I hope you don't mind me cutting in, but a few things I believe are true about the Fused and Voidlight might be useful (and if I'm mistaken, correction would be welcome):

1. Fused all have large gems inside of their bodies at all times: their gemhearts
2. These gemhearts seem to have some role in the use of their powers (I think in WaT Adolin damages Abidi by nicking or cracking his gemheart, preventing him from flying... I might be misremembering details though)
3. Resupplying Voidlight is much easier than Stormlight. Just perform the Song of Prayer and then you're all set-- no need to wait for another Highstorm or Dalinar-created perpendicularity. I'm not sure what's involved in the song, and it seems like you can't just hum it while fighting (else Lezian would never need to run off), but Fused will never find themselves low on power during something like the Weeping
4. Singer gemhearts do not appear to leak Investiture as Radiants' bodies and regular gemstones do, though that conclusion seems implausible to me. It seems more likely that it depletes very slowly and is so easy to refill that they effectively don't run out. But maybe that's not the answer and Voidlight is simply different from Stormlight in this way (I think I remember reading that Voidlight inherently leaks more slowly)

1 and 2, together, suggest that the gemheart can and does hold Voidlight, and Singer gemhearts are larger than what we see in spheres so they can probably hold a lot. That always-available store, along with 3 and 4, seriously cuts down on the need to carry backup gems. Healing is nice, but they're immortal anyways, and outside of that I'm not sure we've ever seen a Fused suffer from lack of Light or fail to have enough to do anything they want to do. I agree that it's not definitive, but it is suggestive that we've literally never seen a Fused draw Voidlight from a gemstone or even hold or carry such a gem. Despite striking down many Fused and Singer soldiers, I don't believe any of the Radiants had ever seen Voidlight until it happened on-screen in... I forget the first appearance (Kholinar, in Oathbringer?).

There is also an endurance angle. Radiants get worn out from channeling too much Light, though the amount they can wield increases as they progress through the Oaths. If we accept that Fused have access to about as much Investiture as a 3rd-Oath Radiant they can probably do a lot with it, but blasting magic around may not be the best use of their capacities. Even the Heralds didn't rely only on their ability to project magic back when they were fueled directly by Honor. Fused are physically more powerful than humans, much older and far more experienced, and get passive Investiture benefits constantly and with no particular cost. Trying to fight like a Radiant might be playing to their limitations rather than their advantages, especially if it tires them.

Finally, Stormlight is easy to accumulate, or at least it used to be. Anyone with gems, even uncut ones, just exposes them to a Highstorm and they fill up. Voidlight is only granted from Odium, and he seems like he likes having his Fused dependent on him and obedient. He may not permit large-scale storage of Voidlight. That, or some other orthogonal reason, might explain why we don't see Fused carrying Voidlight, whether or not they could use it in this way.

[The White Drake]

10 hours ago, Returned said:

Singer gemhearts are larger than what we see in spheres

Where do you draw this information from? I've seen statements that they are quite small, so small they are often not spotted among Singer remains.

10 hours ago, Returned said:

Healing is nice, but they're immortal anyways, and outside of that I'm not sure we've ever seen a Fused suffer from lack of Light or fail to have enough to do anything they want to do. I agree that it's not definitive, but it is suggestive that we've literally never seen a Fused draw Voidlight from a gemstone or even hold or carry such a gem. Despite striking down many Fused and Singer soldiers, I don't believe any of the Radiants had ever seen Voidlight until it happened on-screen in... I forget the first appearance (Kholinar, in Oathbringer?).

We know they can draw Light from them because of Lezian doing just that, and he also sees El holding what he thinks is just a normal Voidlight gem and doesn't comment on it (except to demand to be given the Light). Normally breathing in Light isn't a very visual thing, so it makes sense we wouldn't see anything if a Fused just pulled some from gemstones they were carrying. Since we know they can both hold and draw from such gemstones, and have as much Investiture as Radiants that do carry, I believe we will need something definitive to state they don't carry.

10 hours ago, Returned said:

Fused are physically more powerful than humans, much older and far more experienced, and get passive Investiture benefits constantly and with no particular cost.

This is half my frustration with Frustration. He claims, for example, that Flowing Ones are just 'faster warforms', and that some Fused are weaker than Regals, assigning them hazekiller coefficients of 2-3, when even without any Surges every Fused is a superhuman, incredibly elite regenerating soldier.

10 hours ago, Returned said:

There is also an endurance angle. Radiants get worn out from channeling too much Light, though the amount they can wield increases as they progress through the Oaths. If we accept that Fused have access to about as much Investiture as a 3rd-Oath Radiant they can probably do a lot with it, but blasting magic around may not be the best use of their capacities. Even the Heralds didn't rely only on their ability to project magic back when they were fueled directly by Honor. Fused are physically more powerful than humans, much older and far more experienced, and get passive Investiture benefits constantly and with no particular cost. Trying to fight like a Radiant might be playing to their limitations rather than their advantages, especially if it tires them.

I would suggest that this makes them even more dangerous. Since we've established they have the Light of a 3rd Ideal Radiant, if they can win without using any of it up, that doesn't mean they have a lack of Light that limits them, as Frustration is saying, or inability to use it externally. Rather that they are so good they don't need to.

10 hours ago, Returned said:

Resupplying Voidlight is much easier than Stormlight. Just perform the Song of Prayer and then you're all set-- no need to wait for another Highstorm or Dalinar-created perpendicularity. I'm not sure what's involved in the song, and it seems like you can't just hum it while fighting (else Lezian would never need to run off), but Fused will never find themselves low on power during something like the Weeping

Hardly an everyday occurrence, but I do recall during the battle at the Shattered Plains, Leshwi stated Odium was offering his power to all there, and hovered off the ground mere seconds later. So at least when Odium wills it specifically, it can be replenished at rapid rates.

13 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I am aware. The things I pointed out do not appear to fall into that category. It is worth noting the same book calls out Magnified Ones and Husked Ones as unable to use their Surge like Radiants do, as an exception to a general rule.

I note, however, that I am getting this information secondhand. If someone could provide the exact text, that would be much appreciated.

[Frustration]

14 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Any external use expends Voidlight.

Yes I'm aware, but other than in OB we never see them do that.

14 hours ago, The White Drake said:

We also have WoBs stating Fused have less access to Investiture than Radiants of the Fourth Ideal, implying they do have as much as Radiants as lower Ideals. The only way I can see that working is if they carry. I suppose they could just be able to hold an insane amount, but that still means they don't have a lack of Light, which was my original po

I'm assuming you're referring to this one

Spoiler

Questioner

Suppression fabrials. They don't work above the Fourth Ideal for Radiants, but they work on all Fused. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

Fused have, in general, a smaller amount of Investiture—or access to a smaller amount of Investiture—than a Radiant of those oaths. That's the dividing line that you can use to figure that out.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

That's not about the amount they hold, that's the investiture within their souls. At fourth ideal Kaldin would be immune to suppressor fabrials whether he was holding stormlight or not.

14 hours ago, The White Drake said:

The sword turned to dust 'as it struck her', so it may not have cut deep enough to truly be inside her body.

Just like with allomancy, as long as a little of it is inside, the whole thing counts as inside.

14 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I am aware. The things I pointed out do not appear to fall into that category. It is worth noting the same book calls out Magnified Ones and Husked Ones as unable to use their Surge like Radiants do, as an exception to a general rule.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

I note, however, that I am getting this information secondhand. If someone could provide the exact text, that would be much appreciated.

I'm assuming you're sourcing this from the coppermind. Beware, Ruin's influence is all over there, and may lead you astray.

The pages you sited earlier were the Fused stat blocks, not the worldbuilding and lore pages.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

Where do you draw this information from? I've seen statements that they are quite small, so small they are often not spotted among Singer remains.

Spheres are only a couple of mg, with even Broams only being 400mg. A gemheart is multiple times larger.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

This is half my frustration with Frustration. He claims, for example, that Flowing Ones are just 'faster warforms', and that some Fused are weaker than Regals, assigning them hazekiller coefficients of 2-3, when even without any Surges every Fused is a superhuman, incredibly elite regenerating soldier.

Strength is not the end all be all. A lot of the reason I give Stormforms and direforms superior rankings to fused is that they have armor, which is far more important than just strength. And for all of their talk the Fused have not been shown to be particularly skilled in combat.

Edited Tuesday at 05:35 PM by Frustration

[Returned he/him]

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Where do you draw this information from? I've seen statements that they are quite small, so small they are often not spotted among Singer remains.

Rough estimates of the scale from other Rosharan creatures and the estimates of chip/mark/broam sizes from the Coppermind, and descriptions of spheres in the books. My understanding of the Singer gemhearts is that they are cloudy and colored similarly to bone (Oathbringer, I-7, page 833) and grow in the sternum (see WoB, below)-- they specifically look like bone and are incorporated into bone. This is more than sufficient to explain why they aren't spotted, without any assertions about their size being tiny. They're also mostly useless (except to the living Singer for whom it's a body part), so there wouldn't be much cause for anyone to bother extracting or even looking for them. I don't recall seeing any statement on Singer gemheart size being particularly small, perhaps you could share your citations on this?

WoB citation on Singer gemheart appearance:

Spoiler

Questioner

I was wondering, in Stormlight, what kind of gem the [singer] gemhearts were, or do they just, do they hold Stormlight well?

Brandon Sanderson

So, this is a good question. This is one that people have been asking me since the first book, if they had one, and I've finally kind of confirmed it in book three. So the reason people don't think [singers] have a gemheart is it is milky white, and looks like bone.

Questioner

But aren't their bones red?

Brandon Sanderson

Their bones, well-- Their bones are red-- not completely. If you're going to pull out the bone, what you're going to see-- I'll explain it in the next book. So what you're going to do is, if you break open the bone, you're going to find this white-- It's not marrow but it is, yeah I guess it's marrow. Anyway at the center kind of in their sternum there is a gemheart there, but it is fused to the bone and it is grown into the bone, and you have to kind of snap it open and find it inside, and it kind of just looks like marrow, but there's a gemheart in there. And it kind of relates to some stuff in Dragonsteel that I'm not gonna get into. But you'll see in the next books. But there's a good reason people just don't think that [singers] have a gemheart. 

Questioner

So they must not glow much then, I'm assuming.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, well, it's surrounded by bone. So it's a different special thing. We'll bring it out in the following books. It might not be the next one.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

We know they can draw Light from them because of Lezian doing just that, and he also sees El holding what he thinks is just a normal Voidlight gem and doesn't comment on it (except to demand to be given the Light). [...]Since we know they can both hold and draw from such gemstones, and have as much Investiture as Radiants that do carry, I believe we will need something definitive to state they don't carry.

I reviewed (quickly) the section of RoW that I thought most likely to show Lezian drawing the Light from gems, but if there is an on-screen case of Lezian drawing Light I missed it (or I could be looking at totally the wrong section). The best I found was a description, from Raboniel, that Lezian was recharging from spheres he'd hidden in the tower (RoW, page 710). Interestingly, Raboniel describes this process as infusion, similar to what we see with charging spheres and fabrials. If there is another reference to Lezian drawing Light, especially seeing him do it in a Radiant-like fashion, could you share the citation? Apologies if you already did so upthread and I missed that, too.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

This is half my frustration with Frustration. He claims, for example, that Flowing Ones are just 'faster warforms', and that some Fused are weaker than Regals, assigning them hazekiller coefficients of 2-3, when even without any Surges every Fused is a superhuman, incredibly elite regenerating soldier.

I read this as disagreeing with Frustration's hazekiller coefficient scale and not an argument that Fused carry infused gemstones with them (just confirming, as in my previous post I suggested this as a reason Fused were less likely to carry gemstones).

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I would suggest that this makes them even more dangerous. Since we've established they have the Light of a 3rd Ideal Radiant, if they can win without using any of it up, that doesn't mean they have a lack of Light that limits them, as Frustration is saying, or inability to use it externally. Rather that they are so good they don't need to.

They don't necessarily have the Light a 3rd-Ideal Radiant has, an amount which varies as they draw and use it. They have Investiture on par with such a Radiant, which is more about how much Light they can hold and use, as well as the efficiency with which they use it. If a Fused really does store their Voidlight in their gemheart, then the amount of Light they carry with them will be capped at the amount the gemheart can hold whereas a Radiant can draw the Light of lots of gems at once, including very large ones, and store it (poorly) in their body.

We already know that Fused can use Light externally (from a WoB and a handful of examples), but we don't see them do so very often. They can't be so good that they don't need it, as the Fused have lost every Desolation ever. So if they aren't using their Surges externally that seems unlikely to be the reason. When we see them fail so much on screen, the idea that they are declining to use their Surges externally suggests that they: 1. would not be effective enough to tip the balance; and/or 2. have some other limitation on their use which causes them to hold back. Lack of replacement Light, whatever the specific reason, would explain 2. If it's 1, then that seems detrimental to your position.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Hardly an everyday occurrence, but I do recall during the battle at the Shattered Plains, Leshwi stated Odium was offering his power to all there, and hovered off the ground mere seconds later. So at least when Odium wills it specifically, it can be replenished at rapid rates.

Another argument against the need to carry infused gems with them, though I maintain that high throughput of Light has serious, battle-relevant costs which might argue against frequent magic use.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I note, however, that I am getting this information secondhand. If someone could provide the exact text, that would be much appreciated.

If you're going to demand citations (which is certainly fair here), it would be a good idea not to simply pass on secondhand things you've heard from wherever as argumentation. The Cosmere RPG books are a source which is worth referencing, but if that's the only citation for a conclusion that is otherwise not in evidence and fits poorly with more canonically clear information (book appearance, explanation, or WoB) it's a conditional and tenuous conclusion at best, even with a citation.

Edited Tuesday at 06:22 PM by Returned

[The White Drake]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Yes I'm aware, but other than in OB we never see them do that.

The fighting styles may not lead to it much, but when a Heavenly One did get grappled by what it thought was a random guard, it didn't hesitate to Lash him. By and large we simply don't see many Brands of Fused fight, and those that do have fighting styles where this wouldn't come up much.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's not about the amount they hold, that's the investiture within their souls. At fourth ideal Kaldin would be immune to suppressor fabrials whether he was holding stormlight or not.

Fair. Still, they can heal from multiple Shardblade wounds, which means they must have quite a bit.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Just like with allomancy, as long as a little of it is inside, the whole thing counts as inside.

Yes, I was postulating she may have transformed it the instant it touched her skin, before it actually cut.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Spheres are only a couple of mg, with even Broams only being 400mg. A gemheart is multiple times larger.

That depends entirely on the size of the creature in question.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Strength is not the end all be all. A lot of the reason I give Stormforms and direforms superior rankings to fused is that they have armor, which is far more important than just strength. And for all of their talk the Fused have not been shown to be particularly skilled in combat.

The powerful healing Light offers should offset that lack of armor. As for skill, they are considered the match of Radiants despite having only half the surges and no shapeshifting weapons. The Stormfather said 'even before they learned to wield the Surges, men could not fight them'.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Rough estimates of the scale from other Rosharan creatures and the estimates of chip/mark/broam sizes from the Coppermind, and descriptions of spheres in the books. My understanding of the Singer gemhearts is that they are cloudy and colored similarly to bone (Oathbringer, I-7, page 833) and grow in the sternum (see WoB, below)-- they specifically look like bone and are incorporated into bone. This is more than sufficient to explain why they aren't spotted, without any assertions about their size being tiny. They're also mostly useless (except to the living Singer for whom it's a body part), so there wouldn't be much cause for anyone to bother extracting or even looking for them. I don't recall seeing any statement on Singer gemheart size being particularly small, perhaps you could share your citations on this?

WoB citation on Singer gemheart appearance:

It was that WoB, on the logic you can't hide something to large in there, camouflaged or no. But if we have scales from other creatures, that beats that. Besides which, the whole issue is moot as a Fused's entire body can hold Light.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

I reviewed (quickly) the section of RoW that I thought most likely to show Lezian drawing the Light from gems, but if there is an on-screen case of Lezian drawing Light I missed it (or I could be looking at totally the wrong section). The best I found was a description, from Raboniel, that Lezian was recharging from spheres he'd hidden in the tower (RoW, page 710). Interestingly, Raboniel describes this process as infusion, similar to what we see with charging spheres and fabrials. If there is another reference to Lezian drawing Light, especially seeing him do it in a Radiant-like fashion, could you share the citation? Apologies if you already did so upthread and I missed that, too.

I didn't say on-screen. I said he did, which we know is the case because he is stated to do so multiple times. He also demands the Voidlight from a gemstone El is holding. I don't see how you could think he's incapable of breathing in Light from spheres.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

I read this as disagreeing with Frustration's hazekiller coefficient scale and not an argument that Fused carry infused gemstones with them (just confirming, as in my previous post I suggested this as a reason Fused were less likely to carry gemstones).

Correct. They are two different points, one about the relative Light held by a Fused, the other about their ability to fight without Surges.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

They don't necessarily have the Light a 3rd-Ideal Radiant has, an amount which varies as they draw and use it. They have Investiture on par with such a Radiant, which is more about how much Light they can hold and use, as well as the efficiency with which they use it. If a Fused really does store their Voidlight in their gemheart, then the amount of Light they carry with them will be capped at the amount the gemheart can hold whereas a Radiant can draw the Light of lots of gems at once, including very large ones, and store it (poorly) in their body.

We already know that Fused can use Light externally (from a WoB and a handful of examples), but we don't see them do so very often. They can't be so good that they don't need it, as the Fused have lost every Desolation ever. So if they aren't using their Surges externally that seems unlikely to be the reason. When we see them fail so much on screen, the idea that they are declining to use their Surges externally suggests that they: 1. would not be effective enough to tip the balance; and/or 2. have some other limitation on their use which causes them to hold back. Lack of replacement Light, whatever the specific reason, would explain 2. If it's 1, then that seems detrimental to your position.

Can you point to some times they failed to do so? We see very little of most Brands of Fused fighting, which makes this difficult to prove. Also, the Desolations were so close 9 out of 10 people were dead from a single one, and the Fused were so scary losing the Heralds to seal them was a necessary tradeoff for mankind's victory, every single time.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

If you're going to demand citations (which is certainly fair here), it would be a good idea not to simply pass on secondhand things you've heard from wherever as argumentation. The Cosmere RPG books are a source which is worth referencing, but if that's the only citation for a conclusion that is otherwise not in evidence and fits poorly with more canonically clear information (book appearance, explanation, or WoB) it's a conditional and tenuous conclusion at best, even with a citation.

Which is why I asked for someone to provide the specific text. The fact that I am not the original source of the claim does not make the claim somehow irrelevant, and I will thank you not to insult me by claiming I 'passed on secondhand things heard from wherever' when I checked to see that the original claim was cited, stated it was secondhand, and asked if anyone could help verify it, with a specific page number to look at.

It certainly does not seem to fit poorly to me- we see multiple Brands of Fused use their powers externally like Radiants several times. They use the same Surges as Radiants, so it rather seems that we would need some evidence indicating they can't, rather than that they can.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

The pages you sited earlier were the Fused stat blocks, not the worldbuilding and lore pages.

I have found a copy of the book. It is, in fact, from a lore blurb right beside the statblock, not a purely mechanical game function. Tis canon.

Last sentence- 'they can use the Surge in nearly all the same ways as Radiants', not just 'they can change their own appearance'. There is a similar line for Deepest Ones: 'in addition to using Cohesion like a Radiant'.

Thus we know for a fact that they can, and we know for a fact that they have at least enough Light to heal multiple Shardblade wounds, which is a significant amount.

Edited Tuesday at 07:45 PM by The White Drake

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

It was that WoB, on the logic you can't hide something to large in there, camouflaged or no. But if we have scales from other creatures, that beats that. Besides which, the whole issue is moot as a Fused's entire body can hold Light.

We don't know a ton of specifics about Singer physiology, but you could easily fit something the size of a golf ball in that area, possibly even something as large as a tennis ball without much fuss (especially accounting for the larger statures of Rosharans compared to Earthlings). Either would be massively larger than the gemstones set into spheres. We don't have very reliable scales for gemheart to creature size, it's very rough estimation.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

I didn't say on-screen. I said he did, which we know is the case because he is stated to do so multiple times. He also demands the Voidlight from a gemstone El is holding. I don't see how you could think he's incapable of breathing in Light from spheres.

I'm not saying that the Fused have no way to get Voidlight from a gemstone into their own bodies. What I'm saying is that we have no particular reason to think that they breathe it in as Radiants do. It's definitely a possibility, maybe even likely. But by this statement from you it seems that we don't have any in-text indication that the mechanism is the same. It could be something like the transfer of Light from one gemstone to another via sound coaxing it on, as artifabrians do, for example. That's infusion of Light but not via breathing it in.

If nothing else it seems like Lezian's process may take longer than just inhaling, given Kaladin's brief dialogue with Raboniel while Lezian is away recharging, but I wouldn't stake too much on that. I don't see how you can be so certain in your assertion of the mechanism, and so absolute your rejection of even the possibility that it's different. As I said previously, if you have a citation of someone describing a Fused taking in Voidlight like a Radiant takes in Stormlight, that would help.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

Can you point to some times they failed to do so? We see very little of most Brands of Fused fighting, which makes this difficult to prove. Also, the Desolations were so close 9 out of 10 people were dead from a single one, and the Fused were so scary losing the Heralds to seal them was a necessary tradeoff for mankind's victory, every single time.

Every Desolation, with the later ones being particularly relevant (human knowledge, technology, and industry were badly degraded by the time of Aharietiam, when 9 in 10 dead was the casualty rate, while the Fused were more experienced than ever before). Multiple engagements between Heavenly Ones and Windrunners from RoW. Azir and the Shattered Plains in WaT. "Close loss" isn't very impressive if we're granting that the Fused are so much better than human soldiers, especially if they are also blasting external magic everywhere with ample Voidlight to power it. Maybe I've misunderstood what you're asking (particularly the "times they failed to do so"), if so please let me know.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

Which is why I asked for someone to provide the specific text. The fact that I am not the original source of the claim does not make the claim somehow irrelevant, and I will thank you not to insult me by claiming I 'passed on secondhand things heard from wherever' when I checked to see that the original claim was cited, stated it was secondhand, and asked if anyone could help verify it, with a specific page number to look at.

It certainly does not seem to fit poorly to me- we see multiple Brands of Fused use their powers externally like Radiants several times. They use the same Surges as Radiants, so it rather seems that we would need some evidence indicating they can't, rather than that they can.

Of course the claim is not irrelevant just because you aren't the original source, but the lack of the cited reference makes it less useful as evidence of a claim which you are making very strongly. The issue is that the specific text is important when it is both the source and only evidence for the claim. Were I to say "I saw someone say that page 387 of Oathbringer explicitly states that Fused can't use their Surges externally", everyone would disagree-- even if assertion about Fused were true, that reference doesn't exist and so the citation cannot offer anything to anyone. Without checking the cited source myself I would not want to advance such a strong assertion based only on that citation, especially if I had not read Oathbringer at all. The RPG books as sources do seem to be harder and less common to cite, for a variety of reasons, for whatever that's worth.

Asserting something without a citation is fine in discussion, especially if you think you recall something without remembering exactly where you might have seen it or what exactly it said, but it is poor form to demand that others provide citations for their own arguments as well as yours. I don't see that it's insulting to say that your assertion is based on a reference you did not provide and that you heard about secondhand when you, yourself, mention both of those things. You seem awfully certain of the what the referenced material may (or may not) provide, and as it sounds like you haven't read that material yourself (it wouldn't be secondhand if you had) your certainty that the reference is both correct and what you present it to be seems a bit strong. Not too strong to be why you have reached a conclusion, but too strong to expect others to accept it as evidence. "This book on this page definitely says this, I think" might lead to a more measured assertion than "this conclusion is indisputably correct". It doesn't even seem like it matters, as external use of Surges by Fused is conclusively proven via two other avenues mentioned in this thread. Whether or not the Masked Ones and Deepest Ones can use their powers in exactly those ways seems tangential, unless I'm misunderstanding why they were brought up.

We have consistent evidence from multiple scenes that the Fused don't use the Surges externally very often, at least in the Final Desolation's various conflicts, despite obviously being able to use them that way. There is almost certainly a reason for that even though we don't know specifically what it is. We know that there are some differences between how Radiants and Fused use their Lights and Surges but that the Surges themselves are the same. We also know from observation that Radiants use their Surges very frequently, sometimes definitively in combat, while Fused do not use them as often in the same ways. We hear a lot about Radiants carrying infused spheres with them to fuel those Surges, and running out of Light is frequently a problem for them, while we don't hear about those things for the Fused. The Fused are not so skilled that they can easily win without their Surges, as evidenced by their frequent defeats, and so if they could use their Surges more often and that would help them to win there must be some reason that they don't.

Maybe the Fused carry sacks of infused spheres into battle and are constantly using their Surges externally, and the books simply never describe it in any way. Maybe the reason is something else. Maybe that reason involves re-infusing themselves being more difficult or slower than it is for Radiants, or maybe there is some other limitation on their external use of Surges. The evidence you've presented on why we should reject possibilities other than the first one is not persuasive to me thus far.

Edited Tuesday at 09:02 PM by Returned

[Frustration]

31 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

The fighting styles may not lead to it much, but when a Heavenly One did get grappled by what it thought was a random guard, it didn't hesitate to Lash him. By and large we simply don't see many Brands of Fused fight, and those that do have fighting styles where this wouldn't come up much.

Heavenly ones are the only ones I can think of where it wouldn't be more effective. Deepest ones should never try and grab people, just sink them up to their ankles in the stone, that's way better. They should have been able to get inside of the storerooms in Narak 3 as well, as they could have turned the wood into paste with their voidlight.

38 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Yes, I was postulating she may have transformed it the instant it touched her skin, before it actually cut.

Ah, I see.

41 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

The powerful healing Light offers should offset that lack of armor.

Not necessarily, because while yes they can heal from a lot of damage as we have seen that doesn't entirely negate the effects. Abidi would have been able to fly during WaT if he had had better armor. Additionally as we saw with Shallan, healing doesn't remove a weapon that gets lodged inside of you, so your healing is spent while you still die. Armor is just better.

Additionally while you can heal from damage that takes time, and as the video I linked earlier shows removing limbs, or even cutting people in half with a good weapon is startlingly easy.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

As for skill, they are considered the match of Radiants despite having only half the surges and no shapeshifting weapons.

Considered, but not shown to actually be that dangerous. Adolin is able to kill them with just his normal weapons in the CR. And even just with what people say we know that the humans have killed Fused using sticks.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

The Stormfather said 'even before they learned to wield the Surges, men could not fight them'.

If by before they could wield surges includes before half of them got stripped of carapace armor I would agree. Fighting them without steel would be suicide.

51 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Besides which, the whole issue is moot as a Fused's entire body can hold Light.

That's not so clear

Spoiler

Fantastic-Eggplant-9

It's stated that the Fused can hold Voidlight nearly indefinitely. Does this mean their gemhearts are perfect gems?

Brandon Sanderson

So, kind of. It does not necessarily mean that, how about that. But a similar mechanic is happening.

Fantastic-Eggplant-9

Is this why they are so strict with how they handle their dead?

Brandon Sanderson

It is part of why. You are picking up on the right foreshadowing that I have seeded into the books.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

Can you point to some times they failed to do so?

Sure

1. Failed to take Theylanah
2. Failed to take Herdaz for a year despite Herdaz not having Radiants
3. Failed to make any significant headway after a year of fighting
4. Failed to hold Southern Makabak
5. Failed to hold Urithiru
6. Failed to Take Azimir

They aren't very good at winning.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

and the Fused were so scary losing the Heralds to seal them was a necessary tradeoff for mankind's victory, every single time.

That's what the books say, but not what the books show.

Not that I consider losing ten people to be a high price to pay, especially as they'll be back.

However despite the number of desolations every single one was won by humans.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

I have found a copy of the book. It is, in fact, from a lore blurb right beside the statblock, not a purely mechanical game function. Tis canon.

Last sentence- 'they can use the Surge in nearly all the same ways as Radiants', not just 'they can change their own appearance'. There is a similar line for Deepest Ones: 'in addition to using Cohesion like a Radiant'.

Thus we know for a fact that they can, and we know for a fact that they have at least enough Light to heal multiple Shardblade wounds, which is a significant amount.

Yes I'm aware of that section, I still consider that a part of the stat block and non-canonical.

4 minutes ago, Returned said:

We have consistent evidence from multiple scenes that the Fused don't use the Surges externally very often, at least in the Final Desolation's various conflicts, despite obviously being able to use them that way. There is almost certainly a reason for that even though we don't know specifically what it is. We know that there are some differences between how Radiants and Fused use their Lights and Surges but that the Surges themselves are the same. We also know from observation that Radiants use their Surges very frequently, sometimes definitively in combat, while Fused do not use them as often in the same ways. We hear a lot about Radiants carrying infused spheres with them to fuel those Surges, and running out of Light is frequently a problem for them, while we don't hear about those things for the Fused. The Fused are not so skilled that they can easily win without their Surges, as evidenced by their frequent defeats, and so if they could use their Surges more often and that would help them to win there must be some reason that they don't.

^ This. Those are my thoughts exactly.

[The White Drake]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

If nothing else it seems like Lezian's process may take longer than just inhaling, given Kaladin's brief dialogue with Raboniel while Lezian is away recharging, but I wouldn't stake too much on that. I don't see how you can be so certain in your assertion of the mechanism, and so absolute your rejection of even the possibility that it's different. As I said previously, if you have a citation of someone describing a Fused taking in Voidlight like a Radiant takes in Stormlight, that would help.

Because it's the simplest reasonable solution. Before your proposal, the only alternative I saw offered was 'they can't', which we know is wrong. Even your proposal is based on conjecture. Doing it like Radiants is the most likely way, as Fused are Radiant analogs.

 

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Every Desolation, with the later ones being particularly relevant (human knowledge, technology, and industry were badly degraded by the time of Aharietiam, when 9 in 10 dead was the casualty rate, while the Fused were more experienced than ever before). Multiple engagements between Heavenly Ones and Windrunners from RoW. Azir and the Shattered Plains in WaT. "Close loss" isn't very impressive if we're granting that the Fused are so much better than human soldiers, especially if they are also blasting external magic everywhere with ample Voidlight to power it. Maybe I've misunderstood what you're asking (particularly the "times they failed to do so"), if so please let me know.

Yeah, you did. I meant examples of Fused when they should have used their Surges in external ways, but didn't. Heavenly Ones rarely are close to anything to Lash, and we see very little of many other Brands fighting.

 

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Of course the claim is not irrelevant just because you aren't the original source, but the lack of the cited reference makes it less useful as evidence of a claim which you are making very strongly. The issue is that the specific text is important when it is both the source and only evidence for the claim. Were I to say "I saw someone say that page 387 of Oathbringer explicitly states that Fused can't use their Surges externally", everyone would disagree-- even if assertion about Fused were true, that reference doesn't exist and so the citation cannot offer anything to anyone. Without checking the cited source myself I would not want to advance such a strong assertion based only on that citation, especially if I had not read Oathbringer at all. The RPG books as sources do seem to be harder and less common to cite, for a variety of reasons, for whatever that's worth.

Asserting something without a citation is fine in discussion, especially if you think you recall something without remembering exactly where you might have seen it or what exactly it said, but it is poor form to demand that others provide citations for their own arguments as well as yours. I don't see that it's insulting to say that your assertion is based on a reference you did not provide and that you heard about secondhand when you, yourself, mention both of those things. You seem awfully certain of the what the referenced material may (or may not) provide, and as it sounds like you haven't read that material yourself (it wouldn't be secondhand if you had) your certainty that the reference is both correct and what you present it to be seems a bit strong. Not too strong to be why you have reached a conclusion, but too strong to expect others to accept it as evidence. "This book on this page definitely says this, I think" might lead to a more measured assertion than "this conclusion is indisputably correct". It doesn't even seem like it matters, as external use of Surges by Fused is conclusively proven via two other avenues mentioned in this thread. Whether or not the Masked Ones and Deepest Ones can use their powers in exactly those ways seems tangential, unless I'm misunderstanding why they were brought up.

Demand? I didn't have the book, so I asked if anyone else did. I don't get where you found the idea that I was somehow forcing others to research my claims for me. When no-one stepped up, I went and laid hands on a copy. I fail to see how you can take 'if anyone can provide the exact text, that would be much appreciated' as some sort of demand and 'poor form'.

You say I presented my claim to strongly, but I did state it was secondhand. I was not, as you said, 'passing on things I heard wherever as an argument', which is where I take umbridge. Your statement was very aggressive and accusatory.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

We have consistent evidence from multiple scenes that the Fused don't use the Surges externally very often, at least in the Final Desolation's various conflicts, despite obviously being able to use them that way. There is almost certainly a reason for that even though we don't know specifically what it is. We know that there are some differences between how Radiants and Fused use their Lights and Surges but that the Surges themselves are the same. We also know from observation that Radiants use their Surges very frequently, sometimes definitively in combat, while Fused do not use them as often in the same ways. We hear a lot about Radiants carrying infused spheres with them to fuel those Surges, and running out of Light is frequently a problem for them, while we don't hear about those things for the Fused. The Fused are not so skilled that they can easily win without their Surges, as evidenced by their frequent defeats, and so if they could use their Surges more often and that would help them to win there must be some reason that they don't.

Maybe the Fused carry sacks of infused spheres into battle and are constantly using their Surges externally, and the books simply never describe it in any way. Maybe the reason is something else. Maybe that reason involves re-infusing themselves being more difficult or slower than it is for Radiants, or maybe there is some other limitation on their external use of Surges. The evidence you've presented on why we should reject possibilities other than the first one is not persuasive to me thus far.

My reasoning on external applications is simple: We don't have consistent evidence they don't use them externally much, because we just don't see very much of most Fused fighting. Magnified Ones and Husked Ones are the exception to being able to use them externally, and Heavenly One combat styles favor keeping distance over close-in Lashing (but the one time one was grappled, it did Lash it's enemy). The other Brands we barely see fight. We've seen one Flowing One in action once, in a situation where effecting the area would be useless. We've seen one Altered One fight once. We've seen a single melee attack from a Focused One. We've never seen a Masked One in the vicinity of any enemy, or a Devastating One at all. The only Fused I can say we've ever seen not apply their Surges externally when they should have is the Deepest Ones in Urithiru when the counterattack was headed down the steps.

We know they can and we know they have notable Light. So, from my point of view, it is theories on limitations to them performing external feats that need evidence, not the other way around.

From my point of view: Fused can use Surges externally: Fact. Fused have a notable amount of Light: Fact. Fused have some other limitation: Theory.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Heavenly ones are the only ones I can think of where it wouldn't be more effective. Deepest ones should never try and grab people, just sink them up to their ankles in the stone, that's way better. They should have been able to get inside of the storerooms in Narak 3 as well, as they could have turned the wood into paste with their voidlight.

I wouldn't say 'never'- it did seem effective. But you have a point.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Not necessarily, because while yes they can heal from a lot of damage as we have seen that doesn't entirely negate the effects. Abidi would have been able to fly during WaT if he had had better armor. Additionally as we saw with Shallan, healing doesn't remove a weapon that gets lodged inside of you, so your healing is spent while you still die. Armor is just better.

Additionally while you can heal from damage that takes time, and as the video I linked earlier shows removing limbs, or even cutting people in half with a good weapon is startlingly easy.

Dalinar, in his own words, 'shrugged off a lost arm like a stubbed toe'. It didn't take very long at all. Armor is certainly useful, but it can fail, and then you're dead. It might surpass a lesser form of healing, but Light healing is incredibly powerful.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

That's not so clear

The body glows because it holds Voidlight, just as a Radiant glows from holding Stormlight. Holding the Light is what provides the healing, strength, speed, etc.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Sure

1. Failed to take Theylanah
2. Failed to take Herdaz for a year despite Herdaz not having Radiants
3. Failed to make any significant headway after a year of fighting
4. Failed to hold Southern Makabak
5. Failed to hold Urithiru
6. Failed to Take Azimir

They aren't very good at winning.

Not what I was asking, sorry.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

That's what the books say, but not what the books show.

Not that I consider losing ten people to be a high price to pay, especially as they'll be back.

However despite the number of desolations every single one was won by humans.

But only ever once the Fused were sealed.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Yes I'm aware of that section, I still consider that a part of the stat block and non-canonical.

How can you consider that the stat block? It's clearly a lore blurb, outside the block. Details on how they serve Odium, saying they're unsettling, a Dawnchant translation of the name, certainly can't be. The canon policy, to my understanding, is thus: mechanics are not canon, specific events (because players can effect them) are not, the rest is. That text is clearly not mechanics. Right beside the stat block is a traditional place to put lore for creatures in many RPG books.

Edited Tuesday at 10:17 PM by The White Drake