The sibling (WaT conversation)

[Keke They/he]

okay so im reading WaT and in chapter 23 rushu is talking to sibling and says that sibling is neither male nor female. And i find this entire conversation (though it’s only a few words) to be fascinating because… is he canonically nonbinary? Or agender? I think agender would fit better but like… does anyone have any WoB about this?

Edited May 11 by Keke

[PanLin they/he]

6 minutes ago, Keke said:

okay so im reading WaT and in chapter 23 rushu is talking to sibling and says that sibling is neither male nor female. And i find this entire conversation (though it’s only a few words) to be fascinating because… is he canonically nonbinary? Or agender?

yep! I mean, that conversation you're quoting is in itself canonical evidence that the Sibling is non-binary. Gender is a purely social construct, and the Sibling clearly doesn't feel like they're either male or female, hence: non-binary / agender.

 

Technically, all parshendi are non-binary because their society recognises 4 genders, so an agender parshendi would technically be non-quarternary instead (but agender is probably cleaner).

[Keke They/he]

1 minute ago, PanLin said:

yep! I mean, that conversation you're quoting is in itself canonical evidence that the Sibling is non-binary. Gender is a purely social construct, and the Sibling clearly doesn't feel like they're either male or female, hence: non-binary / agender.

 

Technically, all parshendi are non-binary because their society recognises 4 genders, so an agender parshendi would technically be non-quarternary instead (but agender is probably cleaner).

Yay!! 
i love seeing the rep in all these books. From depression to gay (though I haven’t reached Renarins part yet.) and I’m pretty sure I read about a trans coded character before but I don’t remember who. 

[Verdance he/him]

I headcanon the Sibling as agender

[Clarkmon22 He/Him]

1 hour ago, Keke said:

Yay!! 
i love seeing the rep in all these books. From depression to gay (though I haven’t reached Renarins part yet.) and I’m pretty sure I read about a trans coded character before but I don’t remember who. 

there was some radiant who's body like "healed" into their spiritual sense of self, which was another biological sex. so yeah if youre a radiant you don't need a transition surgery.

[Verdance he/him]

10 minutes ago, Clarkmon22 said:

there was some radiant who's body like "healed" into their spiritual sense of self, which was another biological sex. so yeah if youre a radiant you don't need a transition surgery.

That would be better actually 

also the thing Yumi did to Nikaro

[Keke They/he]

24 minutes ago, Verdance said:

I headcanon the Sibling as agender

Lets gooo

11 minutes ago, Clarkmon22 said:

there was some radiant who's body like "healed" into their spiritual sense of self, which was another biological sex. so yeah if youre a radiant you don't need a transition surgery.

Guys its settled instead of getting surgery ill just become a knight radiant, much cheaper.

[PanLin they/he]

37 minutes ago, Keke said:

Guys its settled instead of getting surgery ill just become a knight radiant, much cheaper.

There are some really interesting WoBs building on this idea, and inspired by the fact that singers can basically change their form at will. Sanderson has also said a few times that he wants to include more queer characters, he just wants to make sure he does it right.

You can find them all with this search query: https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=transgender (I'm conscious we're in the Stormlight forum, so just be careful of spoilers if you haven't read the other Cosmere books!). The first WoB below is spoiler-free if you're up to date on Stormlight:

Spoiler

R'Shara

Would Stormlight healing, Progression, or Feruchemical gold healing count as some of the ways that a transgender person could change their body to match their identity?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Those would work. In fact, that's kind of the main way that you would make that happen. Injections of Investiture making the body match the Spiritual and Cognitive.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Minor spoilers for Warbreaker:

Spoiler

Kogiopsis

Since Returned come back as kind of an idealized form of themselves, if somebody was transgender in their original life would they Return as the sex they had been assigned the first time or the gender they identified as?

Brandon Sanderson

I would think that a transgendered person could definitely come back as how they identify. Perception is very important in these sorts of things. It would really depend on the person, but yes.

Words of Radiance Portland signing (March 7, 2014)

Minor spoilers for Mistborn:

Spoiler

Questioner

How come you don't have any gay, lesbian, or transgender characters in your books?

Brandon Sanderson

I do! This one [Shadows of Self] actually has one. Ranette is lesbian. Let's see, transgender is awkward because I have the kandra who are kind of no-gender and both, that doesn't really count, but it's kind of me testing the waters and seeing whether I can write someone who has fluid gender and not be offensive with it, does that make sense? So keep an eye on what I do with the kandra through the books. The other gay person is Drehy from Bridge 4, he's based on my good friend Ryan Dreher who is gay, and so you will see his husband appear in the series eventually as well, but we really haven't talked about that one yet, there really hasn't been an opportunity, but Ranette we've talked about and it becomes more and more obvious as we talk about it in the books.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

Spoiler

Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Which is all to say that various applications of Investiture seem to hint that we might see a rise in transhumanism and other forms of radical self-expression in the future of the Cosmere, let alone just gender non-conformity.

 

[Keke They/he]

27 minutes ago, PanLin said:

There are some really interesting WoBs building on this idea, and inspired by the fact that singers can basically change their form at will. Sanderson has also said a few times that he wants to include more queer characters, he just wants to make sure he does it right.

Im actually so excited to see more of them. 

 

28 minutes ago, PanLin said:

You can find them all with this search query: https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=transgender (I'm conscious we're in the Stormlight forum, so just be careful of spoilers if you haven't read the other Cosmere books!). The first WoB below is spoiler-free if you're up to date on Stormlight:

  Reveal hidden contents

R'Shara

Would Stormlight healing, Progression, or Feruchemical gold healing count as some of the ways that a transgender person could change their body to match their identity?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Those would work. In fact, that's kind of the main way that you would make that happen. Injections of Investiture making the body match the Spiritual and Cognitive.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Minor spoilers for Warbreaker:

  Reveal hidden contents

Kogiopsis

Since Returned come back as kind of an idealized form of themselves, if somebody was transgender in their original life would they Return as the sex they had been assigned the first time or the gender they identified as?

Brandon Sanderson

I would think that a transgendered person could definitely come back as how they identify. Perception is very important in these sorts of things. It would really depend on the person, but yes.

Words of Radiance Portland signing (March 7, 2014)

Minor spoilers for Mistborn:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

How come you don't have any gay, lesbian, or transgender characters in your books?

Brandon Sanderson

I do! This one [Shadows of Self] actually has one. Ranette is lesbian. Let's see, transgender is awkward because I have the kandra who are kind of no-gender and both, that doesn't really count, but it's kind of me testing the waters and seeing whether I can write someone who has fluid gender and not be offensive with it, does that make sense? So keep an eye on what I do with the kandra through the books. The other gay person is Drehy from Bridge 4, he's based on my good friend Ryan Dreher who is gay, and so you will see his husband appear in the series eventually as well, but we really haven't talked about that one yet, there really hasn't been an opportunity, but Ranette we've talked about and it becomes more and more obvious as we talk about it in the books.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

  Reveal hidden contents

Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Which is all to say that various applications of Investiture seem to hint that we might see a rise in transhumanism and other forms of radical self-expression in the future of the Cosmere, let alone just gender non-conformity.

 

LETS OGOOOO

[Verdance he/him]

I would like to see how brandon handles writing a definitively trans character 

[Keke They/he]

48 minutes ago, Verdance said:

I would like to see how brandon handles writing a definitively trans character 

Yesss, i know Brandon has expressed like worry in writing them as he doesnt wanna be offensive or anything, which makes sense and is lowkey super sweet cause its fairly easy to write a bad character. 

[Aeoryi she/her]

1 hour ago, Keke said:

Yesss, i know Brandon has expressed like worry in writing them as he doesnt wanna be offensive or anything, which makes sense and is lowkey super sweet cause its fairly easy to write a bad character. 

he takes a lot of care writing characters that don't necessarily embody him accurately, more than a lot of authors really. It's kinda what makes the characters feel more real. 

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, Keke said:

I’m pretty sure I read about a trans coded character before but I don’t remember who. 

Ral-Na - one of the kings of the Reshi Isles, introduced on WoR and verified Trans in Dawnshard Ch 3:

Spoiler

Lopen took the hand.

“Before you take me down,” Talik said, “I have a . . . somewhat delicate question for you. Our king, who is one of my parents, has undergone some unusual physical changes lately. They have transformed him in dramatic ways, and at first we thought it was a gift of our god, as he was not born looking as he does now. We now realize this transformation is in relation to a spren he has been seeing. It is why he agreed to make this long trip.”

“Your king is Radiant!” Lopen said. “What kind?”

“He can make the very air seem to catch flame,” Talik said. “And sees a spren that burns through the inside of objects in curious treelike patterns.”

“Dustbringer,” Lopen said. “We’ve been hoping to find some more. Look, this is great. But don’t talk to the ones we already have, all right? It’s complicated, but we’d love to see you figure your own way, without anyone interfering.”

“I do not understand.”

“I don’t really either,” Lopen said. “Have your king talk to Dalinar about it, all right? But don’t tell anyone else. It’s politics. The annoying kind.”

“There’s another kind?”

Lopen grinned. “I like you, velo.” 

WoBs: 

Spoiler

Quote

Headpat_Thot

The Reshi King from Rysn's interlude is probably trans. This statement is based on a few points

1: Everybody but Rysn (who's whole thing is that she's extremely green and unaware of the world) uses He/Him pronouns to refer to the reshi king.

2: When Rysn first meets the king, She genders him as a man, until she notices that he has breasts. This suggests that he has taken measures to present more masculine.

3: When Rysn refuses to call the king "king" his son loses his temper and tries to send her away. Up until then, he had been firm, but that was the point where he outright tells her to leave.

There is one line in the text where The king's son says "gender is irrelevant" in response to a question Rysn has about the king's gender.

I will say that this was written before the Author stopped using Gender and Sex interchangeably according to the WoB database.

Beyond that, I doubt the language they were speaking (thaylen) would have a robust understanding of sex and gender.

Credar

/u/mistborn was this your intention with the scene if you can confirm it? Or was it more the Egyptian style Hatshepsut-like others are mentioning?

Brandon Sanderson

I love Hatshepsut as an interesting quirk of history, and have long thought about ways to incorporate something similar. I did have that partially in mind when I was writing this, but more in the way that the culture was trying to understand him, rather than his own view of himself.

The king sees himself as male, and wishes to be treated that way--not just in title. In fact, in the coming months, you will see this character again briefly in some scenes I've already written, if you keep an eye out.

<edited for length and relevance> General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 12, 2020)

Quote

pelolep

So the Reshi King canonically trans, right? I was hoping so when he was first mentioned, and I know it's been asked before if a trans Radiant would "heal" towards their true gender.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And this is what happened.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

Hope that helps

Edited May 12 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Keke They/he]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Ral-Na - one of the kings of the Reshi Isles, introduced on WoR and verified Trans in Dawnshard Ch 3:

  Reveal hidden contents

Lopen took the hand.

“Before you take me down,” Talik said, “I have a . . . somewhat delicate question for you. Our king, who is one of my parents, has undergone some unusual physical changes lately. They have transformed him in dramatic ways, and at first we thought it was a gift of our god, as he was not born looking as he does now. We now realize this transformation is in relation to a spren he has been seeing. It is why he agreed to make this long trip.”

“Your king is Radiant!” Lopen said. “What kind?”

“He can make the very air seem to catch flame,” Talik said. “And sees a spren that burns through the inside of objects in curious treelike patterns.”

“Dustbringer,” Lopen said. “We’ve been hoping to find some more. Look, this is great. But don’t talk to the ones we already have, all right? It’s complicated, but we’d love to see you figure your own way, without anyone interfering.”

“I do not understand.”

“I don’t really either,” Lopen said. “Have your king talk to Dalinar about it, all right? But don’t tell anyone else. It’s politics. The annoying kind.”

“There’s another kind?”

Lopen grinned. “I like you, velo.” 

WoBs: 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hope that helps

Its so peak

Edit i was doing research and apparently the entire race of parshendi are ace

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9317

Edited May 12 by Keke

[Verdance he/him]

9 hours ago, Keke said:

Its so peak

Edit i was doing research and apparently the entire race of parshendi are ace

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9317

I mean, technically? Except in mateform, their gender is irrelevant. 

[Nitpicking]

7 hours ago, Verdance said:

I mean, technically? Except in mateform, their gender is irrelevant. 

The Coppermind says Singers can reproduce in any form, but usually do it in mateform. After all, the Parshendi (slaveform) reproduce.

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

The Coppermind says Singers can reproduce in any form, but usually do it in mateform. After all, the Parshendi (slaveform) reproduce.

That sounds like a misreading of this WoB:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 19, 2015)

 

Related:

Quote

BartimaeusTrilogyFan

Have you included (or do you potentially intend to include) any asexual characters in your published works? Asexual characters don't seem to be very common in fiction, and I'm sure it would be fantastic for people that identify as such to feel in any way represented by one of your characters!

Brandon Sanderson

I originally conceived the asexual nature of most Parshendi (from the Stormlight Archive) forms after reading a very thought-provoking article written by someone asexual. The idea of a primarily asexual race was a fascinating idea to me, and you will see this more in future books.

RobotAztec

can somene be born half-parshnedi or maybe even half-spren??

Brandon Sanderson

The Horneaters and the Herdazians are both descendants of Parshendi/human interbreeding.

Spren do not reproduce biologically. As such, the term "half-spren" is basically meaningless. You could argue that the Parshendi, when bonded to spren, are part spren--as are many creatures on Roshar, if they have a spren symbiosis.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 17, 2015)

 

There is a huge difference between "not only mateform"' and "every form." We know that most forms are Malen/Femalen; while, at least, Mateform and Slaveform are Male/Female. There are likely other Male/Female Singer forms. But then, asexual does not mean "incapable of reproduction" either.

The answer we have not yet received explicitely is if Malen and Femalen genders are capable of reproduction for Singers - or only Male and Female genders.

Edited May 13 by Treamayne
SPAG