[discuss] One Thousand Years, but who is counting?

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

So Dalinar lost the contest of champions, but I now question if he even could have won in a meaningful way. While Rayse might have accepted that 1000 years means the passage of time without intentionally messing with it, obviously Taravangian has no such scruples.

What would stop Taravangian from shoving a single Singer who was otherwise going to be turned into a Fused into the spiritual realm, cracking up that time dilation and pumping investiture that provides youth and the sustenance into the poor tortured soul, and then declaring that 1000 years have passed for someone? Seemingly nothing besides needing to come up with the idea.

Alternatively, what stops him from proposing a new calendar in which the "year" measures what is normally called a "day" and then simply leaving in what Dalinar thinks of as 1177 even if he lost?

To me, it seems as if dealing with Rayse was like dealing with some weird self-appointed villain who wanted to be defeatable (baffling that) while Taravangian operates on rules like international relationships: All parties to a contract must be able to enforce their terms themselves as there is no higher authority to act as a dispute resolution system beyond mediation the parties themselves agree to. Were Tanavast and Taravangian left to fight, I have to imagine Roshar would have just been devastated by their direct battle, as any the latter seems without concern for developing a reputation as impossible to form good faith agreements with.

I had once considered the idea of a possible future of the series where Jasnah swallows her pride and distaste for her enemy in order to try pursue her goal of the greater good; I thought she might eventually take up a position like Prime Minister for the large nation of Rosharans implied to be under the night of sorrow's cloud cover. I figured she would be better for the job than Battar and preventing people from starving to death or being killed with overwork on public projects is just a good thing to do, especially if it is done in a way that constrains Taravangian's ambitions. But this requires that Jasnah can form an agreement with Taravangian as to what her duties are and what she is not willing to do for him. Since Jasnah lacks a deterrent besides "your subjects will die" which seems meaningless; Many people die in wars, Taravangian says he cares, but his plan is a galactic crusade so fat lot that means.

Maybe this is what the Honor Child is for as a plot mechanism? Taravangian now has to explain any kind of word play to a child, who can theoretically... something if he goes too far? Leave? Kill him? Explode in a tantrum?

Anyway, what do people think of this speculation? Do words have meanings to which they are affixed, or are they simply tools shaped by those with the power to do so? Will Jasnah continue to be the most morally upright person on Roshar? 

[PanLin they/he]

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

So Dalinar lost the contest of champions

Did he? He avoided killing his grandson, refused to give Taravangian what he wanted, and used the Sunmaker's Gambit to slap a divine 'kick me' sign on Retribution's back. He took an impossible situation and still found a way to surprise a god and force Taravangian into a place of weakness.

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

While Rayse might have accepted that 1000 years means the passage of time without intentionally messing with it, obviously Taravangian has no such scruples.

What would stop Taravangian from shoving a single Singer who was otherwise going to be turned into a Fused into the spiritual realm, cracking up that time dilation and pumping investiture that provides youth and the sustenance into the poor tortured soul, and then declaring that 1000 years have passed for someone? Seemingly nothing besides needing to come up with the idea.

Alternatively, what stops him from proposing a new calendar in which the "year" measures what is normally called a "day" and then simply leaving in what Dalinar thinks of as 1177 even if he lost?

Nothing would technically stop any of this and Taravangian loves a good loophole, but where Rayse may have wanted to be free but was more respectful of the word of the law (or at least more predictable and stubborn), Taravangian wanted to remain bound so he could build up his power and experience as Retribution before the other Shards started acting against him. That's the whole reason Dalinar did what he did.

That said, I would expect that the oath would have specified '1000 Rosharan years' or something, although I don't have any evidence for that one!

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

To me, it seems as if dealing with Rayse was like dealing with some weird self-appointed villain who wanted to be defeatable (baffling that) while Taravangian operates on rules like international relationships: All parties to a contract must be able to enforce their terms themselves as there is no higher authority to act as a dispute resolution system beyond mediation the parties themselves agree to.

This bit is true of all Shards anyway. They can bend rules, but the more severely they do so, the more they risk damage to themselves or the opening of weaknesses that can be exploited by other Shards. From the wiki:

Spoiler

Oaths

“For a deity, breaking a promise exposes them to destructive forces from others—and the magnitude of the broken promise often determines the severity of the consequence. ”

—Hoid^[97]

When a Vessel makes an oath, this oath becomes engraved into the Shard itself.^[23] As these oaths are put on the Shard itself, instead of the Vessel alone, they pass between Vessels when a Shard is passed on.^[23][37][46] A new Vessel would still be bound to oaths made by the previous Vessels, but would not be shackled by the spirit of the oaths, allowing them to explore loopholes.^[85] Lesser promises also have this distinction.^[97] Outside of oaths, they are allowed to lie.^[98]

These oaths can prohibit what actions a Shard, and thus the Vessel, is capable of making.^[99] For example, oaths restrict the actions Odium could make on Roshar, and left him unable to travel beyond the Rosharan system.^[37][83] Honor's power binds others more strongly into oaths compared to other Shards.^[37][71] Those Connected to a Shard, such as Fused, Heralds, or spren, can also be bound by the oaths of their Shards.^[46][29]

Breaking an oath can wound the Shard, and leave them open to attack.^[23][9][10] If a person breaks an oath made to a Shard, the Shard can fully retaliate without risking retribution from the other Shards.^[97] The Shard can also attempt to goad others into breaking their oaths with them.^[100] Shards can be released from their oaths if those they made them with (or in the case of other Shards, those who hold the power) agree to it.^[77][101]

 

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

Many people die in wars, Taravangian says he cares, but his plan is a galactic crusade so fat lot that means.

Taravangian does care, a hell of a lot! He just genuinely believes in the utilitarian approach that Jasnah thought she adhered to: actively sacrificing some lives and restricting everyone's freedom is a worthwhile cost to ensure order and safety for the majority, under Retribution's uncontested rule.

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

Maybe this is what the Honor Child is for as a plot mechanism? Taravangian now has to explain any kind of word play to a child, who can theoretically... something if he goes too far? Leave? Kill him? Explode in a tantrum?

Essentially, yeah. Exactly the same struggle that Tanavast faced with Honor, and that Harmony currently faces with Preservation and Ruin. Although, we've obviously seen some evidence that Honor might be maturing in its perspective on oaths.

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

Do words have meanings to which they are affixed, or are they simply tools shaped by those with the power to do so?

100% shaped. Perception is wildly important and powerful in the Cosmere.

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

Will Jasnah continue to be the most morally upright person on Roshar? 

Ehhh, I think even stating that Jasnah is the most morally upright person on Roshar is an interesting and subjective moral claim she certainly likes to think she is, but we saw in her debate with Taravangian that if she actually exemplified the moral code she aims for, she would agree with Taravangian on a lot of things. A big part of that scene was showing to us (and to everyone in that room) that, when Jasnah claims to prioritise utilitarianism, she's either on Taravangian's side or a hypocrite.

2 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I had once considered the idea of a possible future of the series where Jasnah swallows her pride and distaste for her enemy in order to try pursue her goal of the greater good; I thought she might eventually take up a position like Prime Minister for the large nation of Rosharans implied to be under the night of sorrow's cloud cover. I figured she would be better for the job than Battar and preventing people from starving to death or being killed with overwork on public projects is just a good thing to do, especially if it is done in a way that constrains Taravangian's ambitions.

I could see this happen, maybe if she abdicates the Alethi throne for Gavinor. Would be an interesting development of that debate to have Jasnah and Retribution in such close proximity to each other.

However, I think I'm inclined to believe that the Kholins will all try to stay safe in Urithiru for now (but Jasnah's always been a rebel, so who knows).

[Returned he/him]

I doubt we'll see trickiness like you describe (though I wouldn't bet much money on it!). My reasoning is mostly narrative-- there's no in-world reason why it should be impossible, especially given Taravangian's intelligence, craftiness, and lack of ethical/moral/philosophical restraint.

It's a really specific mode of plot development but also one that's not only already been done but governed two of the longest Cosmere books. I don't think it was especially well received by fans (in the sense that I haven't seen people loving it and demanding more, though it's not necessarily hated), so I don't think Sanderson will go back to that well. The idea of making a contract irrelevant through formless trickery would make all of the time spent on it in the books a waste. Binding promises are also one of the only constraints we see on Shards at all, so removing that constraint brings in a lot of problems regarding why Shards don't just smite their enemies or directly enforce their will, but we still need at least a fig leaf or two to maintain that constraint. Cosmere stories have often been about flipping the game, refusing to accept the rules your more-powerful-than-you antagonists impose and playing a game you could win instead. Taravnagian seems like the kind of opponent who will require that approach.

But most of all I predict that Shards are going to recede from the main stage for a while. Odium, Cultivation, and Honor were very major characters/forces in SA arc 1 amid rampant magic power inflation, and I have a feeling (feeling only!) that those things are going to be deflated for a while and so dealing directly with Shards and Shards directly managing events will both become rarer. Taravangian will abide by reasonable definitions of contract terms while working to develop his indirect instruments of power, like his armies.

Internal tension with Honor is one mechanism for enforcing this (his substance and power will be hampered if half of his divinity rebels), and the other major one is the poorly-defined vulnerability imposed when a Shard breaks a promise. Shards still do the latter when they think it's worth the risk or cost (see Preservation), so I expect we'll see Taravangian in that position at some point, but the absence of other Shards on Roshar plus the time dilation suggest to me that we won't be dealing with that piece for a while. The remaining constraint, dealing with Honor's perspective and opinions, will hamstring Taravangian's ability to capriciously interpret things for his own convenience. We've already seen him do that as Odium, and SA has made a big deal about how Honor used to be ultra-focused on the technical letter of promises, but now is changing. I think you're right that this will be Honor's role in the story for a while. Taravangian will be canny and push his boundaries but, by his nature as a holder of Honor, won't be able to flat-out cheat in ways like you describe.

I don't think that Jasnah is particularly more morally upright than the other major characters in SA. It's easier for us to think about her ethics because she's so rational and deductive that she thinks through those ethics in advance of being faced with specific challenges. We can examine and consider her ideas in isolation, whether or not we agree with them or think they can be applied well. Most of the SA characters follow vibes, in the sense that they encounter situations, feel things about those situations, and then try to figure out explanations for why those feelings are correct. I suppose we can consider Jasnah's approach to be similar, with the extra bit that her feelings suggest rational evaluation.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

Sorry @PanLin but this style of sentence by sentence response in a forum post is something like nauseating for me to read. I am not saying your ideas are bad, but I believe that forums which forbid this practice as a moderation decision are more pleasing by far.

@Returned On your idea that it would, I think the smiting of Hoid as Wit was the turning point for this. It does seem like Retribution will need to abide by some iteration of a reading of the contract that Dalinar might have accepted as long as he was Honor or Honor's Champion. I agree that Dalinar probably meant to include the contract for the contest of champions when he renounced all of his oaths, that contract is oath-shaped.

I further believe that the matter which will secure a world where Shard interfere less will be the limiting of access to the cognitive and obviously spirit realms along with the emergence of deterrents. It is presumably not that hard for a Shard to limit access to their own worlds on those two fronts, outside of zones of control or local avatars/large Splinters of other Shards, though Taravangian does have The Sibling as a potential issue on the large Splinter front and Roshar. There is also Tanavast's vision of Surgebinding destroying Roshar to consider: If that is possible then sending agents to do the same to another world seems a possibility. This dreadful vision that destroyed the old order of the Knights Radiant would simply be the ultimate sanction of Retribution's knights. On the opposite side of the balance of terror would be the Scadrian H-Bomb. The H is for Harmonium, which, when split in large enough amounts, detonates with world ending potential. The world of mist that will be seen by Retribution when he is out of timeskip jail might be able to launch a missile at Roshar that would threaten to destroy Retribution's base of power and well of control and maybe even endanger his own life, but with a risk that the warhead detonation will destroy Harmony too.

These two threats, Surgebinders who can end worlds and metal devices which can end worlds, can act as the basis for a Cosmere of deterrence. People are not smote nor worlds blasted because no one is in a position to do so and profit from it.

Also, I give Jasnah a huge amount of credit for accomplishing what she has within her actions. Yes, she has killed people but I believe her actual harms, instead of simply devised potentials, are all done to people who have decided to try to kill her before she hurt any of them herself; this is forgiving her for benefiting from the structural harms of being a Kholin. I do not think there is such a thing as an ethical warrior noble family. Yet I personally accept that she cannot be otherwise and I believe she has been immensely responsible with power. She is not a saint. Maybe Kaladin or Adolin will actually deliver more people from the very real unfreedom and suffering and do it without the disreputable steps that Jasnah has taken. But until then, and honestly maybe even after, I will be a huge fan of Jasnah as a moral character. Maybe it is simply responsible to have a plan to kill everyone you meet?

[PanLin they/he]

@ParaTulip thanks for responding regardless! Personally, I'm very much on the other side of the fence there  I find going back and forth with one unbroken mini-essay at a time overwhelming and prone to missing interesting topics. Different strokes for different folks.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 3/11/2026 at 12:34 PM, ParaTulip said:

I had once considered the idea of a possible future of the series where Jasnah swallows her pride and distaste for her enemy in order to try pursue her goal of the greater good; I thought she might eventually take up a position like Prime Minister for the large nation of Rosharans implied to be under the night of sorrow's cloud cover. I figured she would be better for the job than Battar and preventing people from starving to death or being killed with overwork on public projects is just a good thing to do, especially if it is done in a way that constrains Taravangian's ambitions. But this requires that Jasnah can form an agreement with Taravangian as to what her duties are and what she is not willing to do for him. Since Jasnah lacks a deterrent besides "your subjects will die" which seems meaningless; Many people die in wars, Taravangian says he cares, but his plan is a galactic crusade so fat lot that means.

I'd say that Retribution has left, meaning that Jasnah will find nobody to negotiate with. On the side of the Singers you may argue that either The Nine or El are in charge. Nor would I assume that the awakened Singers are ready to let the Fused rule forever. In fact, them growing up faster than humans there will be a new generation, which has never known slavery, very soon. And let's not forget that Ba-Ado-Mishram is free now. I doubt that she's entirely happy that Taravangian is human.

Yet none of them will put a human in an overall position of power. Hence I think it is more likely that Jasnah will kind of form an organization like - for lack of a better comparison - the Justice League, The Watchmen or Professor Xavier's school in order to be a reminder that the humans have some muscle, if the terms of the treaty are violated or humans are mistreated too badly.
But she will not want to keep fighting, if she can avoid it. What would she fight for? How would she do that? At least a sizable minority among the people in Urithiru and - more important - among the Knights Radiant will consider themselves defeated and hence bound by the terms of a peace treaty. She'd fracture the Knights Radiant even more.
Smuggling people out into the lands allied to Retribution, but still under human control (she will cooperate with Queen Fen), get more budding Radiants to Urithiru, explore the wider Cosmere for allies, negotiate with the Unmade and improve relations with the Spren including Wind and Truth will all help to improve their position rather than restart a hopeless war.

 

On 3/11/2026 at 2:40 PM, PanLin said:

Did he? He avoided killing his grandson, refused to give Taravangian what he wanted, and used the Sunmaker's Gambit to slap a divine 'kick me' sign on Retribution's back. He took an impossible situation and still found a way to surprise a god and force Taravangian into a place of weakness.

For the Cosmere as a whole you can argue that. For human Rosharans, well, no. They are bearing the costs of Dalinar's solution.

If you were an Alethi refugee in Urithiru, you'd see your homeland lost, your relatives toiling under Fused overlords, you or your close relatives may have bled or even died in the war, yet Dalinar refused to kill his grandson who had taken up arms against the realm and even mankind? While you were on the frontlines fighting other humans on Odium's side who were merely following orders? Go to a widow with small children whose husband fell at Narak and tell her that it is good that Dalinar avoided killing his grandson. They will consider this a defeat and even a betrayal.

Aladar and Teshav outright say it to Renarin and Jasnah's face. About their father respectively uncle. To people who could materialize a blade they have no defense against. Jasnah herself believes him to have failed. She needs to keep things together. She may see herself forced to put the blame on Dalinar.