Lightweaver illusions carry weight and mass?

[DoctaDajman]

It seems like Shallans illusions may have been able to physically clash with individuals. Is she soulcasting mass into the illusions some how?  

Can she create an illusionary floating weapon and have it fight and physically cut like a normal sword?  

Wouldnt that be the ultimate Roshar awakening? 

[Trusk'our he/him]

24 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

It seems like Shallans illusions may have been able to physically clash with individuals. Is she soulcasting mass into the illusions some how?  

Can she create an illusionary floating weapon and have it fight and physically cut like a normal sword?  

Wouldnt that be the ultimate Roshar awakening? 

You've read WaT, right?

Spoiler

Doing this just in case, but I'd assume that she couldn't just create floating objects unless they were mimicking the mass of something that could normally float. A cloud of smoke or steam should be able to float, but something as heavy as a sword would probably need a structure to hold it up.

The thing she does with this is called Substantiation, which appears to be a Resonant ability of Lightweaving and Soulcasting as far as I can tell. And she did have Radiant kill a Fused with a Substantiated sword, so I would say much of what you're thinking could be done, minus floating heavy objects. I'm assuming it must be heavily taxing on Investiture though, as it would be pretty busted otherwise.

 

[DoctaDajman]

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

You've read WaT, right?

  Reveal hidden contents

Doing this just in case, but I'd assume that she couldn't just create floating objects unless they were mimicking the mass of something that could normally float. A cloud of smoke or steam should be able to float, but something as heavy as a sword would probably need a structure to hold it up.

The thing she does with this is called Substantiation, which appears to be a Resonant ability of Lightweaving and Soulcasting as far as I can tell. And she did have Radiant kill a Fused with a Substantiated sword, so I would say much of what you're thinking could be done, minus floating heavy objects. I'm assuming it must be heavily taxing on Investiture though, as it would be pretty busted otherwise.

 

Nope. But If you wouldnt mind giving me a chapter I will check out the scene. Probably wont read it. Just want the magical highlights. 

[tigerwithanf]

this popped into my head b/c i just finished oathbringer
 

 

Spoiler

"The Voidbringers screamed, several lunging at the figures. Their weapons passed through the Light—but they met resistance. As if the Light were thick, like water. The Light reflected the blows, and the Voidbringers grew confused, their formation breaking."
and
"Jasnah leaned forward, watching the illusions. One of them, a version of Shallan in a scout’s uniform, actually caught a spear as it was thrust. The spear slowed as if pushed into a heavy bank of snow, and the illusion’s hand didn't pop. It held.

'You’re giving them mass,' Jasnah whispered. 'You’re Soulcasting the air into the shape of the Lightweaving.'"

the bold is b/c i searched this up

 

Edited March 2 by tigerwithanf
spelling

[Qianweilian He/him]

3 hours ago, tigerwithanf said:

"The Voidbringers screamed, several lunging at the figures. Their weapons passed through the Light—but they met resistance. As if the Light were thick, like water. The Light reflected the blows, and the Voidbringers grew confused, their formation breaking."
and
"Jasnah leaned forward, watching the illusions. One of them, a version of Shallan in a scout’s uniform, actually caught a spear as it was thrust. The spear slowed as if pushed into a heavy bank of snow, and the illusion’s hand didn't pop. It held.

'You’re giving them mass,' Jasnah whispered. 'You’re Soulcasting the air into the shape of the Lightweaving.'"

In Oathbringer, it says it turns out that Shallan wasn’t using Transformation for her illusions.

Quote

“It is well, Shallan,” Jasnah said. “I merely wanted to see, as it seemed you were Soulcasting to give your illusions weight. But then, concentrated Stormlight has a faint mass to it. Either way, up the steps, child.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (The Stormlight Archive, Book 3) (p. 1179). (Function). Kindle Edition. 

 

10 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Nope. But If you wouldnt mind giving me a chapter I will check out the scene. Probably wont read it. Just want the magical highlights.

10 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Nope. But If you wouldnt mind giving me a chapter I will check out the scene.

Also, browsing this forum while not being up to date on Stormlight on a thread about Radiant abilities (especially as far back as Oathbringer) is certainly a choice. It’s not something I would do, if I wanted to maintain any sort of narrative tension.

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, tigerwithanf said:

this popped into my head b/c i just finished oathbringer

Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read (whichever list is shorter). Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips.

 

51 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Also, browsing this forum while not being up to date on Stormlight on a thread about Radiant abilities (especially as far back as Oathbringer) is certainly a choice. It’s not something I would do, if I wanted to maintain any sort of narrative tension.

 

The OP has been very open about liking Roshar as a setting, but not enjoying the Books during and after Oathbringer - that's why they ask so many Roshar questions and ask for spoilers to answer them. 

20 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

It seems like Shallans illusions may have been able to physically clash with individuals. Is she soulcasting mass into the illusions some how?  

Can she create an illusionary floating weapon and have it fight and physically cut like a normal sword?  

Wouldnt that be the ultimate Roshar awakening? 

It is like a Reverse Lashing (WaT Spoilers):

Spoiler

An interaction of two surges making an ability unique to a single Order of Radiant. Just a Adhesion and Gravitation are both used to accomplish a Reverse Lashing, Lightweaving and Transformation (not Soulcasting, which is only one part of Transformation) are both used in Substantiation (implied to require fourth oath to use correctly)
WaT Ch 9:

Quote

“You should fear me most of all,” the Heavenly One said. “I am Abidi the Monarch. I will rule this world, and I shall keep the Lightweavers. To bleed for me when…” He frowned as the little cavern started to glow. Light reflecting in each bead.

Light coming from Shallan’s eyes.

Radiant formed behind the Heavenly One, made of Stormlight, her head nearly brushing the roof. As Shallan imagined her: Taller than Shallan, stronger, with powerful biceps and a thick neck from extensive training. Hair in a braid, rather than Shallan’s messy, fraying bun. Strong—of a different genre of strength than Shallan—with a Shardblade in hand.

Abidi the Monarch laughed. “An illusion?” he said. “You think I’ll be distracted by something unreal?”

He continued laughing until the Shardblade speared him from behind, spilling orange blood on his fine white outfit.

Real blood. From a real wound. He gasped, looking down.

“Reality,” Shallan hissed, “is what I decide it to be.”

WaT Ch 11:
 

Quote

Abidi the Fused loomed over Shallan, gaping at the sword through his chest. Radiant pulled it free, then swung for his head. Despite the wound, he had the presence of mind to duck forward and tumble over Shallan, then skidded to a stop and spun as his wound resealed. Unfortunately, Radiant hadn’t managed to hit him in the gemheart or sever his spine—the two cleanest ways to kill a Fused.

He took her in, then glanced at Radiant—made physical—his eyes narrowing as he hummed to a discordant rhythm. “You have learned substantiation? I thought your kind had forbidden that skill. Odium will need to know.” He dove through the bead wall, vanishing.

 

Hope that helps

Edited March 3 by Treamayne
SPAG

[DoctaDajman]

58 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

In Oathbringer, it says it turns out that Shallan wasn’t using Transformation for her illusions.

 

Also, browsing this forum while not being up to date on Stormlight on a thread about Radiant abilities (especially as far back as Oathbringer) is certainly a choice. It’s not something I would do, if I wanted to maintain any sort of narrative tension.

I appreciate the concern. 

I have been on the forums for a few years and have voiced my opinions and dislike of the SA for all narrative reasons. The only investment I have in the franchise is the magic. So when spoiler season is gone I feel quite free to ask for spoilers in the general cosmere discussion. 

You dont have to worry about protecting me from myself. If I ask for spoilers its because I really dont care what happens narritively.  I just come for the magic system. 

@Treamayne

Thanks for the snip. I imagine I will eventually get to listening to it in its entirety. For now its one scene at a time. 

I really really enjoyed the Vasher Vs Kal scene in RoW. One day folks... one day I may sit through the books in their entirety. 

Edited March 3 by DoctaDajman

[Qianweilian He/him]

53 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I appreciate the concern. 

I have been on the forums for a few years and have voiced my opinions and dislike of the SA for all narrative reasons. The only investment I have in the franchise is the magic. So when spoiler season is gone I feel quite free to ask for spoilers in the general cosmere discussion. 

You dont have to worry about protecting me from myself. If I ask for spoilers its because I really dont care what happens narritively.  I just come for the magic system. 

Fair enough. I personally dislike spoilers, but I can understand how others would have a different perspective. 

[Returned he/him]

You've mentioned Awakening a few times in non-Nalthian contexts across a few threads. I think that the key element of Awakening is the endowment aspect: you have extra power (Breaths), give that power some intention and guidance (Intent and the Command), and then the power moves into an object that tries to express that intention and guidance. Lightweaving, even the the potentially mass-granting kind, is sort of the opposite: you have the idea of seeming to do something, you Connect with that idea, and then create a phantasm that expresses the idea with which you've connected. It's not clear that the faint mass of a Lightwoven illusion can be used to do much of anything; the only example we have is the vague sensation in an observer of the illusion being struck.

Even if we were to grant that the illusions can interact with real objects directly, it's the difference between pushing your intentions and power into another thing which might fail to carry out your objective and creating an illusion that can't do anything other than what you want it to seem like it's doing. Awakening is transitive: it absolutely requires an object, but can do all sorts of things from that starting point. Lightweaving does not require an object, and in a lot of ways couldn't use one even if it were available.

I'll agree that we haven't seen anywhere close to the limit of what Lightweaving can do, but it is distinct from Awakening in this regard and I'm hesitant to suggest that they overlap here, even though so many Cosmere magics do overlap with one another quite a bit. It's not clear that anything like the flexibility that creates an autonomous being, like Nightblood or Azure's sword, is achievable through Lightweaving. I will be disappointed if Lightweaving leads to "conjure a self-aware, self-determining being from nothing without anything beyond Investiture and Intention" being available to anyone with sub-Shardic power and knowledge, though a good story around that could be pretty interesting.

Edited March 3 by Returned

[DoctaDajman]

7 hours ago, Returned said:

You've mentioned Awakening a few times in non-Nalthian contexts across a few threads. I think that the key element of Awakening is the endowment aspect: you have extra power (Breaths), give that power some intention and guidance (Intent and the Command), and then the power moves into an object that tries to express that intention and guidance. Lightweaving, even the the potentially mass-granting kind, is sort of the opposite: you have the idea of seeming to do something, you Connect with that idea, and then create a phantasm that expresses the idea with which you've connected. It's not clear that the faint mass of a Lightwoven illusion can be used to do much of anything; the only example we have is the vague sensation in an observer of the illusion being struck.

Even if we were to grant that the illusions can interact with real objects directly, it's the difference between pushing your intentions and power into another thing which might fail to carry out your objective and creating an illusion that can't do anything other than what you want it to seem like it's doing. Awakening is transitive: it absolutely requires an object, but can do all sorts of things from that starting point. Lightweaving does not require an object, and in a lot of ways couldn't use one even if it were available.

I'll agree that we haven't seen anywhere close to the limit of what Lightweaving can do, but it is distinct from Awakening in this regard and I'm hesitant to suggest that they overlap here, even though so many Cosmere magics do overlap with one another quite a bit. It's not clear that anything like the flexibility that creates an autonomous being, like Nightblood or Azure's sword, is achievable through Lightweaving. I will be disappointed if Lightweaving leads to "conjure a self-aware, self-determining being from nothing without anything beyond Investiture and Intention" being available to anyone with sub-Shardic power and knowledge, though a good story around that could be pretty interesting.

I appreciate how you break down awakening. I guess in my mind I have oversimplified it so much that it isnt fair to the Nalthian version of the types of biochromatic entities. 

I know that nothing on Roshar is making awakened objects where these things that were dead or inanimate are now acting on their own due to some form of endowed power. We know true awakened objects even have the capacity to see and sense the world around them. Im certainly not suggesting that Vivenna's cloak is achievable by anything Roshar. 

I am finding plausible ways to create, through surges, scenes that I envisioned would only be possible through awakening and I guess that is why I so often use the term awakening or pseudo awakening for.  

For example... Im now introducing my kid to all of the marvel movies, and while this is likely a lame example I am a total nerd and this imagery is stuck! The Doc Ock or iron Spider arms. For a long time I thought 20,000+ breaths was the only way it would ever happen through cosmere magic. To have extra long arms pop up around the user and carry them around as well as shield or attack enemies would be epic. But the 9th heightening to awaken metal is unachievable I dont even feel good about assigning it to a character in my own mind. 

So awakening from that sense... having 4 extra limbs made of metal or rope that are capable of being controlled and moved around. Ironically I think, in this sense, the evil Doc Ock where the arms take over is far more of a risk with traditional awakening because if you awaken metal it becomes alive and sentient and has its own ideas and will... the only thing that stops Nightblood from destroying half of the population over night is that he has to be held to do so. How would you control truely awakened Doc Ock arms? 

But if Tension is able to cause a steel rod or cables to undulate and be controllable by the users mind that achieves the same goal. If lightweaving a disguise around myself that looks like arms and suddenly that lightweaving carries mass then I can use those arms in the same way, again maintaining control. 

So yeah. It probably isnt fair to classify this as awakening. Nothing is being awakened and given life. But the manipulation and control you have over it has me very excited. 

It still makes me feel icky that they are surges. Roshar gets all of the good stuff. 

I can make a doc ock inspired character that wont lose control of its arms, doesnt cost 20,000 lifetimes worth of resources, and can heal instantly from getting their throat slit or having their tongue cut out. 

As much as awakening is still likely my favorite system, this just outshines it and bonding a spren is far more likely than getting a medium cities worth of people to hand over their life force. 

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

I appreciate how you break down awakening. I guess in my mind I have oversimplified it so much that it isnt fair to the Nalthian version of the types of biochromatic entities. 

It's really just my own way of thinking about the powers, not something that is definite or official. And there is something here-- in Oathbringer Shallan's illusions outside of Thaylen City seem to be better than the plainer automatons she creates in Shadesmar (the ones Adolin hides among before getting skewered). But it seems implausible that she's personally directing each one in any meaningful way. I wouldn't be surprised to find something along the line of an Awakened illusion, or an illusion with much deeper and richer capabilities, at some point. Now that we know Awakened metalminds exist the scope of what the magic systems do is much expanded, and the increasing focus on external, self-directing uses of those powers seem to be a big focus.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

But if Tension is able to cause a steel rod or cables to undulate and be controllable by the users mind that achieves the same goal. If lightweaving a disguise around myself that looks like arms and suddenly that lightweaving carries mass then I can use those arms in the same way, again maintaining control. 

I do not think Tension or Lightweaving could achieve either of those effects. Not at the scale of your example (four indepentantly functioning limbs). Shallan could not Sustantiate a Lightweaving with anything more complex than "pretend to chop" and they cannot react to the world around them. The Primary advantage that Awakening has is that the Type 3 BioChromatic Entity has it's own (borrowed) "Sapience" and can act (and react) independantly to the world around it - Warbrekaer Ch 55:

Spoiler

An arrow snapped against the stone beside her, making her jump. Several guards below had bows.

Colors! she thought, pulling herself up to the next block. She heard a whoosh behind her, and cringed, feeling as if she should have been struck, but nothing happened. She pulled herself up onto the block, then twisted around.

She could just barely see a corner of her cloak holding an arrow. She started, grateful that she had Awakened it. It dropped the arrow, then returned to normal.

Handy, that, she thought, climbing up the last block. By the time she got on top of it, her arms were sore. Fortunately, her Awakened fingers were still gripping as well as ever. She took a deep breath, then began to climb straight up the upper wall of the black fortress, using the carvings as handholds.

Vivenna did not have to see the arrow for the cloak to catch it - and that level of awareness is not present any Surges we know of so far. Also:

3 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

For a long time I thought 20,000+ breaths was the only way it would ever happen through cosmere magic. To have extra long arms pop up around the user and carry them around as well as shield or attack enemies would be epic. But the 9th heightening to awaken metal is unachievable I dont even feel good about assigning it to a character in my own mind. 

So awakening from that sense... having 4 extra limbs made of metal or rope that are capable of being controlled and moved around. Ironically I think, in this sense, the evil Doc Ock where the arms take over is far more of a risk with traditional awakening because if you awaken metal it becomes alive and sentient and has its own ideas and will

We do not know for certain this would be the result. Keep in mind that Vasher and Shashara specifically Intended to create a Type 4 BioChromatic Entity. We have no evidence that a Type 3 Awakening with metal or stone is not possible. In fact, the existence of Kalad's Phantoms heavily implies you can create Type 3s from inorganic material (because it was two separate awakenings - note 1) - so you would have a result more like a normal awakening, but from inorganic material. 

• Note 1: A 50-breath lifeless skeleton and the Type 3 Awakening of the stone scupture in which they were housed.  That was the whole point of Peacegiver's treasure, the breath necessary to re-animate the Phantoms with a Type 3 Command, then use the lifeless commands on the skeleton to control them.

Edited March 3 by Treamayne
SPAG