The hazekiller coefficient

[KnightSkye Reforged They/Them]

12 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

I personally would count it as anything obtainable by the average person (ignoring money, connections, etc.) that doesn't invest said hazekiller (permanently), though of course it is a subjective metric. It's fine if you don't consider medallions, but they are actually technically fabrials (according to inworld arcanists).

 

Good point about fabrials, though I did mention fabrials in the context of roshar alone and only excluded medallions because they grant access to invested arts.

[NameIess]

21 hours ago, Frustration said:

That is a good point, I might over rely on Adolin and Dalinar. I'd say if they have horses, or the ability to bind the chains down that could be rather effective, but I honestly think that the strength of shardplate would make getting pinned down really difficult.

Yes, it would be difficult, but given that it can work against Shardbearers with support, I think that against an unsupported Shardbearer, with the added disadvantage of getting surrounded, it would be doable with the numbers I suggested.

21 hours ago, Frustration said:

As for Orders, I honestly can't think of a single order that I can consider to be of any lesser threat than the others. Bondsmiths of course being greater than the others.

Enlightened Truthwatchers, if we’re counting them, have no combat-focused powers other than perhaps extra-strong healing. Bondsmiths are quite dangerous, but given that they don’t get Shards (with the possible exception of Plate) and require touch to use their powers on people, I would put them below Shardbearers. Maybe 20 or so hazekillers? Even with unlimited investiture from perpendicularities, it doesn’t take too many people to hold a Bondsmith down and crush their skull with a hammer, stick an aluminum dagger or two  through their eyes, or use anti-investiture if that’s allowed.

As for which orders are more dangerous, Stonewards can sink the legs of large swathes of opponents into stone, especially at higher ideals. Windrunners and skybreakers can fly, making it almost impossible to pin them down. Edgedancers also have great mobility, and their ability to be frictionless makes using ropes against them far more difficult.

Compare this to Elsecallers. They have soulcasting, but the average Elsecallers won’t have Jasnah levels of competence. They can retreat to the Cognitive realm, but I would count that as a win for the Hazekillers. Aside from Soulcasting, which would be most useful against ropes and the like, they’re very similar to a Shardbearer, except with the extra advantages of Stormlight and living Shards. They can soulcast fire, perhaps turn a few weapons to smoke, but against aluminum-armored soldiers or soldiers with Half-shards, they’ll get surrounded and overwhelmed far quicker than a Windrunner, Skybreaker, Stoneward, or Dustbringer.

Also, on the Plate making Kaladin go faster, it would increase his terminal velocity, but lashing the extra mass would take extra Stormlight.

Edited January 13 by NameIess

[Qianweilian He/him]

18 minutes ago, KnightSkye Reforged said:

Good point about fabrials, though I did mention fabrials in the context of roshar alone and only excluded medallions because they grant access to invested arts.

I mean, do you count soulcasters as "allowed" fabrials? They aren't too different from medallions.

[Immortal Platypus]

9 minutes ago, NameIess said:

Also, on the Plate making Kaladin go faster, it would increase his terminal velocity, but lashing the extra mass would take extra Stormlight.

I expect it would take extra stormlight, but I don't know if it would be proportional. Lashing "aligned investiture" feels like it would be easier than lashing anything not aligned, to me at least

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

I expect it would take extra stormlight, but I don't know if it would be proportional. Lashing "aligned investiture" feels like it would be easier than lashing anything not aligned, to me at least

It’s a lot of extra mass and will only increase terminal velocity, not acceleration. So I think a second lashing on just Kaladin would be more efficient, or at least just similarly efficient.

[Immortal Platypus]

1 minute ago, NameIess said:

It’s a lot of extra mass and will only increase terminal velocity, not acceleration. So I think a second lashing on just Kaladin would be more efficient, or at least just similarly efficient.

Do you know if the Plate requires a Lashing to float or if it somehow attunes itself to it's wearer's gravity? Kal floating around Urithiru in Plate seems to imply it doesn't require a Lashing, but idk

[KnightSkye Reforged They/Them]

17 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

I mean, do you count soulcasters as "allowed" fabrials? They aren't too different from medallions.

I would not count them as allowed, since they grant direct access to an invested art. @Frustration does this seem fair?

6 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

Do you know if the Plate requires a Lashing to float or if it somehow attunes itself to it's wearer's gravity? Kal floating around Urithiru in Plate seems to imply it doesn't require a Lashing, but idk

I got the impression that living plate on its radiant acts kinda like a second skin in terms of surges: your surges read your plate as part of you. 

[NameIess]

51 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

Do you know if the Plate requires a Lashing to float or if it somehow attunes itself to its wearer's gravity? Kal floating around Urithiru in Plate seems to imply it doesn't require a Lashing, but idk

Kal had infinite Towerlight in Urithiru, so that’s no indication of efficiency. It is possible that Plate gets automatically lashed without the Radiant’s conscious effort, but we don’t have any indication that it does so without costing Stormlight.

[QuantumAce]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, @Frustration, but the point was to try to find a relatively common term to discuss relative power level in the Cosmere - the Hazekiller coefficient and I want to go back to that rather than fighter jet edge cases.

Thank you. While an interesting rabbit trail, I don't think a fighter jet aligns with the original intent of the thread. 

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

In my opinion, defining the Hazekiller Coefficient based on the existing is clever because in a way it's describing the capability of the local normal population to suppress a given Invested art.

That is a great place to start. Helps steer things in more of a practical direction. For most settings we have enough examples of invested individuals vs relatively well trained locals to extrapolate an arena/duel style competition. 

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

As for things like Malwish Medallions, Honorblades, or other equipment that grants Invested abilities, just give them their own coefficient assuming a normal user. That's the point of comparing these, right?

Are you saying that if an honorblade could defeat 10 "standard hazekillers" (trained Rosharan soldiers that have seen shards and radiants in battle), then a team of 1 honorblade and 10 standard hazekillers would have an equal score to 20 standard hazekillers?

[Immortal Platypus]

39 minutes ago, NameIess said:

Kal had infinite Towerlight in Urithiru, so that’s no indication of efficiency. It is possible that Plate gets automatically lashed without the Radiant’s conscious effort, but we don’t have any indication that it does so without costing Stormlight.

I seem to recall him floating before the suppressor was turned off, or at least seeing someone mention it. Did that happen? I thought it did, but the more I think about it, the less sure I am.

1 hour ago, KnightSkye Reforged said:

I would not count them as allowed, since they grant direct access to an invested art. @Frustration does this seem fair?

I got the impression that living plate on its radiant acts kinda like a second skin in terms of surges: your surges read your plate as part of you. 

That could be true, I'm not sure

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Immortal Platypus said:

I seem to recall him floating before the suppressor was turned off, or at least seeing someone mention it. Did that happen? I thought it did, but the more I think about it, the less sure I am.

I think so, but I would assume he just instinctually lashed the Plate along with himself.

[Immortal Platypus]

1 hour ago, NameIess said:

I think so, but I would assume he just instinctually lashed the Plate along with himself.

I feel like he would notice it costing extra stormlight, even if it was just a small amount

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, @Frustration, but the point was to try to find a relatively common term to discuss relative power level in the Cosmere - the Hazekiller coefficient and I want to go back to that rather than fighter jet edge cases. If everyone will indulge me for a few minutes, let's try to put this into hypothetical in-world context to see if the majority agrees about a few aspects to this coefficient and how or why it might be useful. Let's say that you are a Cosmere aware analyst with the Ghostbloods and you've been given the task to estimate relative strength of position between the various worlds and factions. The various Invested combantants make this harder, but spy reports (i.e. you read the books) let you know about their general abilities and numbers. You devise the "Hazekiller Coefficient" and crunch some numbers and need to explain to Kel what it does and doesn't calculate.

 In my opinion, defining the Hazekiller Coefficient based on the existing is clever because in a way it's describing the capability of the local normal population to suppress a given Invested art. A foreigner could come, look into the options available, and with a bit of research and procurement work be approximately as effective as the local Hazekillers - in addition to their own powerset. Look at Mraise acquiring and practicing with Anti-Light. If it came to war, hopefully this would let you generally calculate how many troops to field and supply on a foreign front. It also helps with calculation somewhat generally defines the "arena" that we're throwing regular people at these invested combatants - it's where we might expect the Invested user to operate.

From this standpoint, it seems reasonable to assign a couple coefficients to the same powerset depending on circumstance. For example, a Era 1 Rioter would have a higher coefficient than a Era 2 or 3 Rioter after aluminum becomes ubiquitous - or in otherwords when a foreigner is coming to make trouble in Scadrial, they'll have an easier time in later eras than earlier ones - which is kind of the point of these vs match ups. Making distinctions of this nature encourages people to consider the details a bit more. As for things like Malwish Medallions, Honorblades, or other equipment that grants Invested abilities, just give them their own coefficient assuming a normal user. That's the point of comparing these, right?

Notes about this design of the coefficient:

• The coefficient is not an apples to apples comparison. It's not supposed to be exactly, it's supposed to assume you are going to deal with someone on their turf / or who has resources or equipment from their home planet that you could conceivably acquire from them.
  • It also assumes that you have been decently prepared enough to know what you're dealing with and at least took a look at how the locals deal with the problem. 
• Don't lean too hard on adding coefficients together - because someone is going to look at this and mention Hemalurgy. It probably works to an extent, but this is definitely one of those times when the sum of the parts do not equal the whole.
• It is not rigorous. It's subjective. Probably don't get too hung up on the numbers and allow for a ballpark range. 
• Give it as much leeway as you might as an actual analyst or tactician. In the words of Wayne, "You can beat anybody, so long as you don't let them fight back properly." 

I will note that this changes the idea slightly from "how strong is this power" to "how difficult is it to take this power down with what should be expected to be on hand". It's less about dogpiles and cage matches and more about how the different planetary factions will think about bringing the war to the enemy.

Thoughts?

How are you better at explaining my own ideas than I am?

That's actually perfect.

Quote

As for things like Malwish Medallions, Honorblades, or other equipment that grants Invested abilities, just give them their own coefficient assuming a normal user

Well @Immortal Platypus and @KnightSkye Reforged I'd say something like this here, with Medallions or surge fabrials they can effectively be counted as allomancers/squires with some tweaks, and so I'd say that whether you consider them to be uninvested individuals in their own right, just to keep the math simple we can consider them as modified versions of the original Invested individuals with their own coefficient of Hazekillers.

5 hours ago, NameIess said:

Yes, it would be difficult, but given that it can work against Shardbearers with support, I think that against an unsupported Shardbearer, with the added disadvantage of getting surrounded, it would be doable with the numbers I suggested.

Well I don't know so much about working against supported shardbearers. It seems that unless they have a shardbearer or invested individuals themselves they don't seem to try chains or nets too often. I see it more as a way to interrupt a shardbear so that your fighter has an advantage, more than a win condition on its own.

8 hours ago, NameIess said:

Enlightened Truthwatchers, if we’re counting them, have no combat-focused powers other than perhaps extra-strong healing.

True, though I honestly don't know where to put them. They kind of exist in their own category to me.

8 hours ago, NameIess said:

Bondsmiths are quite dangerous, but given that they don’t get Shards (with the possible exception of Plate) and require touch to use their powers on people, I would put them below Shardbearers. Maybe 20 or so hazekillers? Even with unlimited investiture from perpendicularities, it doesn’t take too many people to hold a Bondsmith down and crush their skull with a hammer, stick an aluminum dagger or two  through their eyes, or use anti-investiture if that’s allowed.

 Yes but unlike Elsecallers it's really easy for them to slip back and forth to the CR, so they could grab someone and dip and then mess with their Connection until they obey the Bondsmith and then do it again.

Not to mention they have full lashings, which really allow for a lot of battlefield control when you are on the ground.

8 hours ago, NameIess said:

Compare this to Elsecallers. They have soulcasting, but the average Elsecallers won’t have Jasnah levels of competence. They can retreat to the Cognitive realm, but I would count that as a win for the Hazekillers. Aside from Soulcasting, which would be most useful against ropes and the like, they’re very similar to a Shardbearer, except with the extra advantages of Stormlight and living Shards. They can soulcast fire, perhaps turn a few weapons to smoke, but against aluminum-armored soldiers or soldiers with Half-shards, they’ll get surrounded and overwhelmed far quicker than a Windrunner, Skybreaker, Stoneward, or Dustbringer.

Perhaps not as skilled as Pozen, but I don't think Jasnah is entirely off the table. True she has almost ten years of experience by the end of the books, but she also had to teach herself a lot of that.

I don't think it would be too difficult to imagine them performing Jasnah's oil trick from RoW where they turn the air to oil and then burn it.

 

[Isilel]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't think it would be too difficult to imagine them performing Jasnah's oil trick from RoW where they turn the air to oil and then burn it.

 

Or into a poisonous gas, which would likely be easier. Aluminium-armored troops still need to breathe, a Radiant, who has stormlight, doesn't. Besides, there is no reason to assume that all Elsecallers would be as bad with Transportation as Jasnah currently is.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

Or into a poisonous gas, which would likely be easier. Aluminium-armored troops still need to breathe, a Radiant, who has stormlight, doesn't.

That's honestly one of my preferred strategies for Elsecallers, specifically something like mustard or phosgene gas, which would just kill everyone except the radiant. However Roshar doesn't have access to too many toxic gases at the moment, so I think Truthberry smoke would be the most helpful, but I think oil would be better for the moment.

[Qianweilian He/him]

22 hours ago, Frustration said:

I think Truthberry smoke would be the most helpful, but I think oil would be better for the moment.

For Rosharans, I think blackbane would be more effective. Although, it might be harder to make into gas. Other than soulcasting, hazekillers could probably use it in darts to try and drain their Stormlight (not applicable for 4th+ ideal).

[Frustration]

39 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

For Rosharans, I think blackbane would be more effective. Although, it might be harder to make into gas.

That's more of what I was looking for. Blackbane is most effective as a gum injected into the bloodstream, I doubt the smoke from it would be very potent, though it would be worth it for an elsecaller to experiment.

41 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Other than soulcasting, hazekillers could probably use it in darts to try and drain their Stormlight (not applicable for 4th+ ideal).

That's honestly a pretty good idea.

[Qianweilian He/him]

37 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's honestly a pretty good idea.

Thanks.

Anyway, I had more ideas. You could modify one of Ranette's shrapnel rounds and fill it with blackbane and aluminum dust. We know that aluminum in a wound interferes with healing it, (see below) so it would be difficult to resolve it. The blackbane, although it's effectiveness would probably be reduced, would induce paralysis that would be hard to deal with as long as the aluminum exists in the wound. It being a bullet allows our hazekillers to break through shardplate (eventually, see below) without getting painfully close to their shardblade.

Quote

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thugs?

It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of...?

There is some weird interaction but...

Kurkistan

In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers.

Footnote: Referring to AoL sample chapter commentary.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Thanks.

Anyway, I had more ideas. You could modify one of Ranette's shrapnel rounds and fill it with blackbane and aluminum dust. We know that aluminum in a wound interferes with healing it, (see below) so it would be difficult to resolve it. The blackbane, although it's effectiveness would probably be reduced, would induce paralysis that would be hard to deal with as long as the aluminum exists in the wound. It being a bullet allows our hazekillers to break through shardplate (eventually, see below) without getting painfully close to their shardblade.

This is actually my preferred anti-radiant tactic now, especially since the aluminum has an aura disruption affect.

Spoiler

Questioner

Is aluminum shielding from emotional Allomancy strictly line of sight? So, can someone in the basement bypass somebody’s aluminum hat on the first floor

Brandon Sanderson

No, they could not. You just put enough aluminum there and it disrupts.

Questioner

So it disrupts like a field.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

[Qianweilian He/him]

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

This is actually my preferred anti-radiant tactic now, especially since the aluminum has an aura disruption affect.

Given this strategy comboed with preferably a squad of hazekillers armored with aluminum trained to work together, I think we can knock down the required # of hazekillers. For convenience, I'm going to call these doug rounds, as they allow even the average Doug to take down a Radiant. Also House Venture employed hazekillers and Douglas Venture exists.

Quote

Elantrian: Given the overwhelming force displayed by elantrians I have to place this number somewhere in the low thousands, they simply have far too much power that cannot be countered without magic.

Mistborn: Eight hazekillers almost beat Kelsier who was one of the strongest Mistborn alive, now he was intentionally holding back but I'd say it's not much of a stretch to say that 10 is a good number.

Feruchemist: This one is actually very easy, just take the amount of storage and boom you get the number of hazekillers

Sandmasters: Kenten repeatedly struggled with between 4-5 opponents

Awakeners: This one is actually pretty hard as the number of breaths changes the effectiveness as does their preparation. Bare minimum assuming they can make lifeless the number of hazekillers equals the number of breaths.

Shardbearers: Most battles in the books show shardbearers with support but Helaran shows us what they can do unsupported. Easily close to 2-3 hundred.

Twinborn: too much variability to say.

Forgers: Shai using stamps could beat 6 skeletals with a lot of preparation

Radiants: by oath level

1. Probably 5-6
2. Easily dozens
3. See Szeth easily over 300, I'll say close to 400
4. Easily low thousands
5. Too little information

Aetherbound: Probably close to the same for Sandmasters 4-5

My analysis

Spoiler

Elantrians: This is too hard to say for sure. Without surprise, it could range from ten to thousands. Assuming the Elantrian has prep time, this is probably around several hundred to thousands.

Mistborn: The doug rounds don't actually change this much, probably still at around 10.

Feruchemist: Gold healing is less useful now, so depending on the storage, I would say it varies from about 3 to over 20.

Sandmasters: Would aluminum even affect sand? Aluminum is inert, but it doesn't drain investiture like silver does. Either way, I will break with @Frustration and instead go for about 20 if on Taldain (infinite sand), 10 otherwise. The sand armor mentioned earlier is interesting.

Awakeners: Awakening isn't incredibly combat focused like some of these are. I would say this depends enough on breath count and the environment to be unreliable.

Shardbearer: Depends on how close the Shardbearer is to the rest of them, but I guess somewhere from 10 to 20, narrowing down to less with snipers with doug rounds.

Twinborn: Again, too much variability, but double steel, probably best combat combo against doug rounds, would probably take around 15.

Forgers: Too dependent on the individual and prep time.

Radiants:

1. 1-3, not too many.

2. 3-8

3. 8-25

4. 25-60

5. We don't know enough about how they're different from 4th ideal

Aetherbound: Probably around 10, mayber 15

 

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Thanks.

Anyway, I had more ideas. You could modify one of Ranette's shrapnel rounds and fill it with blackbane and aluminum dust. We know that aluminum in a wound interferes with healing it, (see below) so it would be difficult to resolve it. The blackbane, although it's effectiveness would probably be reduced, would induce paralysis that would be hard to deal with as long as the aluminum exists in the wound. It being a bullet allows our hazekillers to break through shardplate (eventually, see below) without getting painfully close to their shardblade.

I don't think that would work that way. 

Aluminum dust would prevent only healing near it (even with field effect, which seems to be extremely short ranged), however it wouldn't get absorbed the way blackbane would. And once absorbed, it would no longer be near aluminum, and so healing would take over.

Edit:

Quote

Mistborn: The doug rounds don't actually change this much, probably still at around 10.

Just use aluminum rounds and you are basically near 1-3, like with 1st Oath Radiant, as Mistborn are even more fragile, even if they are a bit more agile.
At least for base 8 metals.

Edited January 15 by therunner

[Qianweilian He/him]

28 minutes ago, therunner said:

which seems to be extremely short ranged

We don't really need that long of a range. Scadrians only wear aluminum lined hats, not helmets, yet it covers their entire head. In the context of a bullet wound, mere inches would be more than enough to block healing of the blackbane gum.

31 minutes ago, therunner said:

And once absorbed, it would no longer be near aluminum, and so healing would take over.

If the blackbane makes it into the blood, then aluminum likely does as well. It's certainly not an instant kill weapon, except by virtue of being a bullet, but getting pumped full of dozens of them could certainly kill a radiant.

[therunner he/him]

36 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

We don't really need that long of a range. Scadrians only wear aluminum lined hats, not helmets, yet it covers their entire head. In the context of a bullet wound, mere inches would be more than enough to block healing of the blackbane gum.

Except it is clear that aluminum doesn't disrupt healing in several cm radius around itself, nor does it block or interfere with steel lines or other Investited objects in such a radius.

Otherwise you wouldn't have to stab Radiant or Fused with aluminum, just have them near it, and nothing like that was ever described.

Aluminum possibly disrupting cognitive powers with certain field effect does not mean it also block healing in same radius.

EDIT: 
E.g. Aluminum doesn't block Returned from coming back to life, they would just be alive but with the wound

Quote

Argent

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

Argent

Different way then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

36 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

If the blackbane makes it into the blood, then aluminum likely does as well. It's certainly not an instant kill weapon, except by virtue of being a bullet, but getting pumped full of dozens of them could certainly kill a radiant.

Merely being in blood wouldn't cause paralysis, meaning blackbane has to be further absorbed by the body.
Where aluminum dust won't be able to follow.

Edited January 15 by therunner

[Frustration]

I'd agree with @therunner that just adding aluminum would not make it that much deadlier. However I think it would still be useful in slowing the radiant down, as based on how long it took(shoot what was Lady Sadeas's first name again?) to die it appears to be a very fast acting neurotoxin. It likely would heal quickly as the aluminum and blackbane separated, but it could be a form of quick but temporary paralysis.

 

@Qianweilian I have to disagree with those numbers for fourth ideal Radiants however, yes Wax can break plate in 2-3 shots, but Wax can also tap Iron and burn steel to get more power out of his shots.

[Qianweilian He/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

yes Wax can break plate in 2-3 shots, but Wax can also tap Iron and burn steel to get more power out of his shots.

Yeah, sure. I wasn't trying to get an exact count so much as trying to show that you can pump a shardbearer full of lead.