Vessels Clashing Intents

[Trusk'our he/him]

I found it interesting to see how different Sazed and Taravangian are. I believe they are opposites in most ways.

Sazed is a humble guy. He doesn't really see himself as a big hotshot hero, and even after taking up the Ruin and Preservation he hesitates to take worshipers and be the focus of attention.

Spoiler

Steris had called the Path a simple religion. Perhaps it was. There was only one basic tenet: Do more good than harm. There were other aspects- the belief that all truth was important, the requirement to give more than one took. There were over three hundred examples listed in the Words of Founding, religions that could have been. Might have been. In other times, in another world.

The Path was to study them, learn from their moral codes, A few rules were central. Do not seek lust without commitment. See the strengths in all flaws. Pray and meditate fifteen minutes a day. And don't waste time worshiping Harmony. Doing good was the worship.

AoL, pg. 74

Spoiler

You've heard my voice; you've followed my Path.

"A few whispered words when I was in a moment of great stress, when I was gravely wounded," Wax said. "Words I've doubted ever since. This is different. This is. . . more real."

You need to hear it then, do you? the voice said. It sounded clear and ordinary as if someone normal, someone visible, sat there talking to him. Very well. I am Harmony, the Herro of Ages, once called Sazed. At the end of one world, I took upon myself, the powers of protection and destruction, and in so ding became the caretaker of the world to come. I am here, Waxillium, to tell you that you are not insane.

SoS, pg. 131

Taravangian, on the other hand, truly wants to be the top dog. He wants to be in charge and to be worshipped as a deity (not to mention that one of his immediate thoughts after achieving freedom from Honor's binding is to kill all Spren, as they might vaguely be able to pose a threat to him).

Spoiler

He fixated on the people working so hard to resist him. He saw their passion, their ingenuity, and loved it. He realized now why he questioned. There were two on this planet who, even as a divinity, he respected almost as equals. Jashan Kholin and Dalinar Kholin. If they opposed him, then. . . he questioned. For in his Ascension to godhood, he'd obtained a wisdom that eluded most mortals. A simple, reasonable precept: if someone you deeply respected disagreed with you, perhaps it was worth reconsidering.

That was when, for the first time, Taravangian legitimately wavered. This problem was not academic, and not one simply of passionate instinct. The question of opposing his friends cut to his very soul. For by its light, he saw that he had been lying , even to himself. 

Yes, it made sense to give the cosmere one god.

Yes, it was his passion to protect his people. 

Both were true, but they were not the actual reason he'd done any of this.

In that moment of uncertainty, Taravangian did what even gods struggled to do.

He saw the truth within himself, one he would never admit to any other being. Why conquer?

Because someday, someone would do it.

And he wanted to be that one.

The burden of a king was to make the difficult choices, and he'd done that for so many years. He longed to enjoy the rewards for those many painful sacrifices. He yearned to see what he could do, unhindered. What heights he could soar to, what accomplishments he- Taravangian, the greatest of me, now divine- could achieve. 

Conquest was not a need, but a want. And he was done denying himself the things he wanted.

WaT, pg. 678

Spoiler

He had other work to do. The highstorm was consumed by the Everstorm at his will, creating a ripple through nature- one he reveled in, causing the passage of time to warp around this world. He had won. Only his Light would be available to Roshar. Only his storm would make them bow down. 

A dark tempest that woold blanket the land. All would wither unless they used his Light to grow and thrive. They would have to rely on him for everything.

Now to deal with the spren, pieces of the old Honor. Remnants, dangling threads, and a possible problem in years to come. If he could be undermined, it would be by them. He breathed in, reaching to draw all spren- of Odium, and of Honor- to him.

WaT, pg. 1,296

Sazed highly values others' agency, so much so that he is eventually willing to let go of his Sword despite the looming threat of Retribution and Autonomy. He isn't perfect, what with the whole Bleeder scenario, but he does try.

Spoiler

He'd found peace in Elendel. He wouldn't return to the field because he wanted it or needed it. This time, he would go because he was needed.

"Final time?" Wax said.

"I promise," Harmony said. "Final time."

. . .

God could have spoken into Wax's head because of the spike. But he had- by Wax's request- vowed never to do so, unless asked. He said he wouldn't even watch.

. . .

He turned over the card that Death had given him. It was from Harmony. 

I've heard distressing things, Waxillium Ladrian, that you've been worrying about. I would like to promise you something. With all the essence and axi of my being, I declare this.

No one else moves you.

Your life is yours.

And you have my deepest apologies that I had an hand in teaching you otherwise.

TLM, pgs. 137, 499

Sazed admits he has limitations and makes mistakes. Meanwhile, Taravangian just wants to rub in his superiority and gloat over his victories when he has the opportunity.

Spoiler

She used to be of Preservation. She has moved to being of Ruin. Both are needed.

"Murderers are needed," Wax said flatly.

Yes. No. The potential for murderers is needed. Waxillium, I- the personality you speak to- agree with you indignation. But the powers that I am, the essence of my self, cannot allow me to take sides.

Already I fear that I have made things too easy for me. This city, the perfect climate, the ground that renews. . . You were to have the radio a century ago, but you didn't need it, so you didn't strive for it. You ignore aviation, and cannot tame the wilds because you don't care to study proper irrigation or fertilization.

"The. . . radio? What is that?"

You don't explore, Harmony continued, ignoring Wax's confusion. Why would you? You have everything you want here. You've barely progressed technologically from what I gave you in the books. Yet others, who were nearly destroyed. . . 

I made a mistake with you, I now see. I still make many. Does that ruin your faith, Waxililium? does it worry you that your God is fallible?

"You never claimed to be infallible, so far as I remember."

No. I did not.

SoS, pgs. 134-135

Spoiler

"I thought," she said to Taravangian, wiping her eyes, "that you went with Fen."

"I can do both," he said. "I am God."

"There is no God."

"Even still, you insist?" Taravangian asked, his tone lightly amused. He settled down, and a chair formed from black smoke for him. He put his hand to the side, and his slender golden scepter appeared, letting him balance his hand atop it like a cane. "After what you've seen? After being so resoundingly outmatched?"

. . .

"I have agents on the Thaylen Council too," Taravangian noted. "Connections that go back to my mortal days, when several of them were part of the Diagram. You and your uncle consistently ignored the council and focused on Fen alone, though she is not an absolute power in this city. Even you, Jasnah, who speak of equality and a representative government, ignored the elected officials today, arguing with me on Fen's behalf only. Yet that council is what you claim to want for your people."

"They're an oligarchy," she said. "Not what I want for Alethkar at all."

"So you focus on the dictator instead?" Taravangian shook his head. "It was an oversight. Admit it. You should have invited them to this meeting."

"It was a mistake," Jasnah whispered, backing up to a the wall, watching the Deepest Ones and preparing her Stormlight.

"You needn't worry," Taravangian said, waving for the Fused to vanish into the stones. "My point is, I did have a plan for conquering this city. My friends on the council had removed the aluminum paneling in one section. During a recess they would have left, and would have returned to find- as planned- their colleagues murdered. Four would have survived, all loyal to me, and the minimum number required to manage the government."

"Fen could have-"

"Fen would have been arrested," Taravangian snapped. "She has been ignoring the council too much- and there are legitimate worries that she was overstepping her authority. My four would have immediately instigated a tribunal against her, temporarily relieving Fen of power. She'd likely have won the resulting trial, but in the meantime this city would have turned to me."

Taravangian stood, and suddenly seemed enormous. Filling the room. Beyond. The walls fading, all other sights vanishing. As if Jasnah was on an endless dark plain, with only the god Taravangian- his face suddenly more skeletal, his eyes recessed, golden light rising around him- standing before her. 

"I always had this city in hand," he said. "However, they will be ruled better if they join me willingly. I have them now. More, I have you, Jasnah. Finally admitting the truth."

WaT, pgs. 1,126, 1,127-1,128

Taravangian is so obsessed with control that he wants to shackle all beings under his rule. He can't even let poor dead Dalinar go, even as a dead man.

Spoiler

"So I change the systems," he said. "I strike down the warlords who hoard resources? I force them to shar, to not hurt one another. I make pain impossible."

"And in so doing. . ."

"I create a country where there are no consequences. Is that so bad?"

"You tell me," she said in her infuriatingly calm way.

Yes, it would be bad. He could see all the permutations of time, as well as attempts by other Shards like himself to do this very thing. By directly intervening on such a granular level, he risked creating a society where no one learned, and where civilization did not progress. By supernaturally forbidding warlords, he would also stifle scientists and artists. By removing the capacity for violence, he would also remove the capacity for mercy.

. . .

"There is a spectrum of choice that can be allowed," he said. "No society can persist with complete freedom, and growth can happen within limits. I can make it so that free will exists to an acceptable degree, while also preventing famines."

WaT, pgs. 125, 126

Spoiler

His anger at Dalinar surged again, a tempest of flame and ire. Dalinar. Dalinar had stolen centuries from him! No more planning, no more careful manipulation. Dalinar. . . 

Dalinar did still exist.

Taravangian reached out and found something lingering on the other side: Dalinar's soul Infused with power, unable to pass on yet. The part of a person that remained, briefly, before entering the Beyond. Taravangian seized it, and if fell into his power.

For Dalinar Kholin was an oathbreaker.

YOU REALIZE I CAN NOW DO WITH YOU WHAT I WILL, Taravangian said to him. I COULD TORTURE YOU FOR ETERNITY, DALINAR. YOU REALLY THINK YOUR SACRIFICE WAS WORTH THE COST?

Rippling through the soul of his rival, a question. What is my life worth?

NOTHING, ANYMORE. DALINAR, YOU ARE NOTHING.

If so, then I trade it for everything. Taravangian. . . I call that a bargain.

Taravangian raged, furious that Dalinar refused to let him gloat. Yet he would not be goaded; he would control this power. Taravangian still had uses for Dalinar. His broken oaths put his soul in Taravangian's hands, and he would make an Unmade from him. Make him. . .

Dalinar's soul slipped away from him. Stretched. and vanished into the Beyond. Taravangian scrambled to hold it, but like water through fingers, he could not.

I really want to see a meeting between these two. Preferably ending with Discord smiting Tetribution silly, but I'll take what I can get from a philosophical debate.

 

As a bonus topic that is related to Sazed's standing as an amazing dude (and that Taravangian is crem), I would like to bring up a theory of mine. I believe that Bavadin is terrified of Sazed. Not Harmony per se, due to it's conflicting Intents, but Sazed himself.

Her philosophy is quite Dominion-ish, with her being a very controlling person. She doesn't seem terribly well aligned with her Shard's Intent, at least not perfectly in my opinion.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/551-youtube-spoiler-stream-7/#e17055

Questioner

Was Autonomy's Intent changed after fighting Dominion? Is there any Dominiony bit to Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

Autonomy, the Vessel always had a bit of a Dominion-ish feel. So yes, but it's not from the fight specifically.

Spoiler

"That's part of what I hate about Autonomy. She claims she wants everyone to be individual. Gives them each a little house that is distinctive from the others, but only in a way that fits her plan, her desires. It's fake individualism. A corporate uniqueness. Like an advertisement telling people to go their own way, be their own person- by buying this product like everyone else."

TLM, pg. 150

I think that she fears Sazed in the same way Rayse feared Ba-Ado-Mishram. He fulfills her Shard's Intent better than she does, and it might very well choose his will over her own when push comes to shove. Maybe even abandon her for him altogether.

There's also the whole technological progress thing, which is definitely a factor for her attempted invasion of Scadrial, but I don't think it's the only reason.

Edited January 5 by Chaos

[Frustration]

Another exceptionally well put together analysis and theory my friend, absolutely stellar.

 

I completely overlooked the possibility of Sazed better fitting Autonomy than Bavadin, that actually might explain why she's going after him instead of some of the other shards.

[Chaos he/him]

Hey there, I did change this topic title so it wasn't so clear Sazed and Taravangian ascended. Though those are definitely out of spoiler period, let's not put big spoilers in topic titles. But this topic title is a bit worse because of it, so apologies there.

[Returned he/him]

Interesting angles! I, too, like the idea of Sazed and Taravangian meeting and interacting. One of the key dimensions of that matchup is that the coming of Retribution undercuts one of Sazed's disadvantages, namely his lack of experience with his Shards. They are also unique as bearers of combined Shards and so comparing them will give us a lot more information on what issues are unique to each vessel, which are due to mismatches/synergies between specific Shards forced together, and which are more functions of bearing two Shards at all. Sazed's inability to act as he'd like due to his Shards' uneasy balance would also provide an interesting contrast to Taravangian's attitude that he is forced to act even outside of his self-styled theme of retribution.

On the other hand I don't think that Bavadin is necessarily aligned poorly with Autonomy's Intent. I can see why people feel that she is overbearing, but I see her current state as more about maintaining her own independence above all others-- she needs to be the most autonomous. "A dual-Shard-bearing vessel forces me to plan in ways that account for the danger they pose to me, which limits my freedom to act as I want to, therefore Sazed needs to be dealt with; he's consuming my own autonomy, which is my very essence and nature!". Even the activities that suggest she is controlling others might be viewed in a similar context, sort of like the old question of if a free person can be permitted to choose to be a slave. Which is more free, a restriction on choosing to be a slave (preserving your autonomy from a situation in which you have less of it, even if you choose it) or having the freedom to make a choice that obviates your future freedoms?

Whether you are moved by that argument or not, Autonomy isn't the same as independence, nor is it the same as having unlimited options. If I'm in a McDonald's restaurant, I'm not any less autonomous because I can only choose from the menu items McDonald's sells instead of a Whopper or a sub sandwich or spaghetti. Despite what the TLM quote suggests, I've never felt that Autonomy (the Shard) was particularly associated with individualism, although I appreciate why people tend to read that into it.

I'm definitely open to the idea that Bavadin isn't fitting well with Autonomy, but also concerned about concluding that she is because a particular inflection of autonomy is unpalatable to us. I have theorized that some of Sazed's issues have come from emphasizing the Preservation-aspects of his Shard and then "dumping" the Ruinous aspects in unsustainable ways. Your post has made me wonder if some of Autonomy's creation of avatars might serve a similar purpose: she's "dumping" more mainline autonomous stuff in order to offset/relieve pressure from her less well-aligned behaviors.

[Schizoposting]

6 hours ago, Returned said:

On the other hand I don't think that Bavadin is necessarily aligned poorly with Autonomy's Intent. I can see why people feel that she is overbearing, but I see her current state as more about maintaining her own independence above all others-- she needs to be the most autonomous. "A dual-Shard-bearing vessel forces me to plan in ways that account for the danger they pose to me, which limits my freedom to act as I want to, therefore Sazed needs to be dealt with; he's consuming my own autonomy, which is my very essence and nature!". Even the activities that suggest she is controlling others might be viewed in a similar context, sort of like the old question of if a free person can be permitted to choose to be a slave. Which is more free, a restriction on choosing to be a slave (preserving your autonomy from a situation in which you have less of it, even if you choose it) or having the freedom to make a choice that obviates your future freedoms?

Whether you are moved by that argument or not, Autonomy isn't the same as independence, nor is it the same as having unlimited options. If I'm in a McDonald's restaurant, I'm not any less autonomous because I can only choose from the menu items McDonald's sells instead of a Whopper or a sub sandwich or spaghetti. Despite what the TLM quote suggests, I've never felt that Autonomy (the Shard) was particularly associated with individualism, although I appreciate why people tend to read that into it.

I'm definitely open to the idea that Bavadin isn't fitting well with Autonomy, but also concerned about concluding that she is because a particular inflection of autonomy is unpalatable to us. I have theorized that some of Sazed's issues have come from emphasizing the Preservation-aspects of his Shard and then "dumping" the Ruinous aspects in unsustainable ways. Your post has made me wonder if some of Autonomy's creation of avatars might serve a similar purpose: she's "dumping" more mainline autonomous stuff in order to offset/relieve pressure from her less well-aligned behaviors.

Autonomy, at least as it's interpreted by Bavadin, is essentially the shard of hyper-capitalism:

Quote

Autonomy is ultimately an Intent about individualism, self-actualization, and creative self-expression.^[4][9] Furthermore, she promotes survival of the fittest and the competitive exclusion principle; she also supports the application of these ideas not just to nature, but to the social structures of sapient beings.^{[4][10][11][12]} As a believer in survival of the fittest, she believes that it is through struggle and defying the odds that a person, or a people, reach their full potential.

But capitalism necessitates winners and losers—what Schumpeter called "creative destruction"—not to mention that it's an anti-egalitarian system, one which can lead to staggering levels of inequality. Therefore, according to this interpretation, there is no contradiction between Autonomy's intent and her attempts to "out compete" the other shards; on the contrary, they go hand in hand.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

On 1/5/2026 at 12:12 PM, Returned said:

I'm definitely open to the idea that Bavadin isn't fitting well with Autonomy, but also concerned about concluding that she is because a particular inflection of autonomy is unpalatable to us. I have theorized that some of Sazed's issues have come from emphasizing the Preservation-aspects of his Shard and then "dumping" the Ruinous aspects in unsustainable ways. Your post has made me wonder if some of Autonomy's creation of avatars might serve a similar purpose: she's "dumping" more mainline autonomous stuff in order to offset/relieve pressure from her less well-aligned behaviors.

Fascinating.  I never saw Sazed as emphasizing the Preservation-aspects of his shard.  I see Preservation as sameness of past, present, and future, and Ruin as difference between past, present, and future; which would make creation, improvement, growth, healing, and learning Ruin-aspects just as much as destruction, worsening, withering, breaking, and forgetting are; because every end is a beginning and every beginning is an end. 

For one thing, he changed Scadrial to the point of being almost unrecognizable as what it was before (yes, this was a change back to how it had been, but two changes don't make a preservation).  For another, the Wax and Wayne books are all about change and progress, which I see as Ruin-aspects.  In the conversation quoted above, Sazed laments about how the people of the Elendel Basin aren't changing/progressing fast enough, and how he sees what he did earlier as a mistake that he now understands as a mistake.

I think back to the constancy and so-called 'primitiveness' of the Terris back when they were the people of Preservation, and find parallels with Rashek's admiration of Khlennium and sense of disappointment with his own people.  I see Sazed questioning his earlier thoughts and wonder if this is how Shards align their bearers to their Intents, if such a process is what happened to Ati.

I kind of think that the main Preservation-aspect that Harmony not-sure-what-verb-goes-here might be prevention (which is a sameness of past, present, and future, since the thing does not happen), and that that prevention is mostly done to himself.

So, I've theorized the exact opposite: that some of Sazed's issues have come from emphasizing the Ruin-aspects of his Shard and then "dumping" the preservationist aspects.

After all, there's no reason why discordance is necessarily change-themed and no reason why concordance is necessarily stasis-themed, a dissonant pair of tones can be sustained just as long as a harmonious pair of tones.

[Nitpicking]

Brandon made it very clear that Creation requires both Ruin and Preservation. If only Sazed had chosen that aspect when he took up both Shards. (Of course, presumably he would then have needed help from Virtuosity, Shard of artistic excellence. I wonder if Virtuosity was Splintered at the time of the Catacendre.)

[Returned he/him]

I don't think that Discord is any less stable of a Shardic inflection than Harmony, so I agree there. But to my mind the stagnation of the Elendel Basin (and Scadrial more broadly) is the lesser of the the two major, in-world elements of the slant towards Preservation: Sazed had hoped for steady progress, but made the initial state post-Catacendre too easy and abundant and so the opposite happened: things (like people and organizations) have been mired in sameness and sluggish to develop. That static state is now breaking down in ways Sazed seems not to want (the rise of the Set and their methods, Malwish hawkishness). I can see @Aliroz-The-Confused's perspective that the stagnation is the dumping of Preservation aspect into the world, especially as Sazed did not expect it (though it's not clear to me if it upsets him or just surprises him).

The other, and greater, symptom of stagnation I see is Sazed's own desire to be and remain Harmony, along with his persistent inability to act. It's been clear for a while that Harmony isn't working, whatever the specific reasons, which led to a shift towards the end of that state as he transitions (or has transitioned) to Discord. That transition represents the ruin of Sazed's goal which he has tried to accomplish for centuries.

Those ideas lead me back around to @Trusk'our's OP here. Whether or not Bavadin is meshing well with Autonomy, is Sazed well aligned with his Shard at this point? The advent of Discord might fit the pattern of Shards overwhelming their vessels, and the combined Shard's nature and preferences are still pretty mysterious to us. Maybe, even if Sazed isn't a better vessel for Autonomy than Bavadin, he might need another Shard to address his own problems. I can see that making the others nervous. In any case, if Sazed is a bad fit for the Preservation-Ruin Shard the consequences seem very rapid compared to others we've seen. The Shards we know for sure have had this problem held their powers and acted for millennia while Sazed has endured for only a few centuries.

I kind of hope that isn't it. We've already had that play out at least three times we know of: Tanavast, Ati, and Rayse, along with a smattering of short-term Shardholders like Vin, Kelsier, and Dalinar. I'm not excited about central conflicts all being too similar and this one might be played out. Then again, there could be new and interesting angles which haven't ripened yet in the arc of Cosmere stories.

Edited January 7 by Returned

[Jult]

Taravangian and Sazed have been on my mind a lot lately as well. I'm very eager to see more of Tetribution just so we can compare him to Harmony to get a better understanding of what comes naturally as part of being a dishardic entity and what is unique to Sazed's situation. Most notable to me: will Taravangian get a 'shadow self' like Sazed? Or is Sazed's shadow a consequence of how he manages his Shards?

On 1/5/2026 at 1:20 PM, Trusk'our said:

I think that she fears Sazed in the same way Rayse feared Ba-Ado-Mishram. He fulfills her Shard's Intent better than she does, and it might very well choose his will over her own when push comes to shove. Maybe even abandon her for him altogether.

I agree that Sazed is a very autonomous person. I can't think of a stronger showing of autonomy (lowercase A) than taking on 2 Shards and not being immediately dominated by their Intents.

The idea of being aligned to Autonomy is a weird catch-22 situation to me. If you're perfectly in sync with Autonomy, then are you even acting autonomously anymore? It feels to me like it would be an impossible Intent to please while you are holding it. And a very easy Intent to please when it is observing you. A part of me wonders if that's related to why Bavadin has isolated herself so much. Maybe Autonomy is very easily attracted to new hosts, so she tries not to expose it to too many new options? But you can't hide something as big as Harmony.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

14 hours ago, Returned said:

I kind of hope that isn't it. We've already had that play out at least three times we know of: Tanavast, Ati, and Rayse, along with a smattering of short-term Shardholders like Vin, Kelsier, and Dalinar. I'm not excited about central conflicts all being too similar and this one might be played out. Then again, there could be new and interesting angles which haven't ripened yet in the arc of Cosmere stories.

I, on the other hand, find it fascinating, and would rather read about the Cosmere's gods than its mortals.  It varies from person to person, of course, but I'm hoping for a lot more of this.

[Returned he/him]

15 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I, on the other hand, find it fascinating, and would rather read about the Cosmere's gods than its mortals.  It varies from person to person, of course, but I'm hoping for a lot more of this.

I'd be interested in more depth, but not simply more instances. We'll see what we get.

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 1/5/2026 at 12:09 PM, Chaos said:

Hey there, I did change this topic title so it wasn't so clear Sazed and Taravangian ascended. Though those are definitely out of spoiler period, let's not put big spoilers in topic titles. But this topic title is a bit worse because of it, so apologies there.

Ah, that's a good idea. It totally didn't cross my mind- I usually just think about the spoiler period and the correct forum, but I will keep that in mind for future posts.

On 1/5/2026 at 11:36 AM, Frustration said:

Another exceptionally well put together analysis and theory my friend, absolutely stellar.

Thanks!

On 1/5/2026 at 12:12 PM, Returned said:

On the other hand I don't think that Bavadin is necessarily aligned poorly with Autonomy's Intent. I can see why people feel that she is overbearing, but I see her current state as more about maintaining her own independence above all others-- she needs to be the most autonomous. "A dual-Shard-bearing vessel forces me to plan in ways that account for the danger they pose to me, which limits my freedom to act as I want to, therefore Sazed needs to be dealt with; he's consuming my own autonomy, which is my very essence and nature!". Even the activities that suggest she is controlling others might be viewed in a similar context, sort of like the old question of if a free person can be permitted to choose to be a slave. Which is more free, a restriction on choosing to be a slave (preserving your autonomy from a situation in which you have less of it, even if you choose it) or having the freedom to make a choice that obviates your future freedoms?

That's a good take on her disposition I think, but I don't believe that the Shard itself is 100% aligned with such a personality.

I say this because a Shard is not really about the Vessel getting the end of the Shard's goals, they're the dealer. For example, Ruin isn't gonna try to end its Vessel despite being about destruction, and Preservation isn't really aligned with saving itself over its creations/others.

I think the Shard Autonomy would be more about preserving or granting people autonomy in their lives. But, that's just me going off my gut feelings for the most part.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/189-rfantasy-ama-2011/#e4034

Chaos

It's a little odd that Preservation would inherently give up its power to fuel Allomancy, because you'd think he would preserve himself, you know? Does that make sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, or Cultivation is about growing herself.

I like to think a Shard's Intent is more like being a ruler and trying to enforce a certain lifestyle and environment for its subjects.

 

On 1/5/2026 at 12:12 PM, Returned said:

Whether you are moved by that argument or not, Autonomy isn't the same as independence, nor is it the same as having unlimited options. If I'm in a McDonald's restaurant, I'm not any less autonomous because I can only choose from the menu items McDonald's sells instead of a Whopper or a sub sandwich or spaghetti. Despite what the TLM quote suggests, I've never felt that Autonomy (the Shard) was particularly associated with individualism, although I appreciate why people tend to read that into it.

I'm definitely open to the idea that Bavadin isn't fitting well with Autonomy, but also concerned about concluding that she is because a particular inflection of autonomy is unpalatable to us.

I'll definitely admit that my perception of this whole deal with Bavadin is pretty solidly influenced by how I, personally, would try to filter Autonomy's Intent and how I view the word and its meaning.

I do think that you can have autonomy working with or under someone else, but only if you give that alliance or subordinance to that individual/organization of your own free will. I don't think that Bavadin filters Autonomy under this definition very well, since she's trying to force her Intent on everyone and build societies as she sees fit without their say so.

That's just my own two clips though, and it could very well be that the Shard of Autonomy doesn't care about this interpretation very much.

[Returned he/him]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I'll definitely admit that my perception of this whole deal with Bavadin is pretty solidly influenced by how I, personally, would try to filter Autonomy's Intent and how I view the word and its meaning.

I do think that you can have autonomy working with or under someone else, but only if you give that alliance or subordinance to that individual/organization of your own free will. I don't think that Bavadin filters Autonomy under this definition very well, since she's trying to force her Intent on everyone and build societies as she sees fit without their say so.

That's just my own two clips though, and it could very well be that the Shard of Autonomy doesn't care about this interpretation very much.

We're all guessing, so your clips are worth at least as much as mine! I like the angle you bring up with the WoB, I think I get too wrapped up in the names the Shards carry. Now you've got me wondering about a Shard's own native disposition, the vessel's interpretation, and a sentient Shard's... combination of those, I guess? Independent Honor was a very tantalizing thing to tease at the end of WaT. I wonder if the fused Shards retain much of their original independence. We'll probably see more of Sazed's situation before we learn a lot more about Taravangian's. Do you think that Preservation and Ruin were subsumed in their combination? Might Honor's semi-independence complicate such a thing?

[Trusk'our he/him]

15 minutes ago, Returned said:

I wonder if the fused Shards retain much of their original independence. We'll probably see more of Sazed's situation before we learn a lot more about Taravangian's. Do you think that Preservation and Ruin were subsumed in their combination? Might Honor's semi-independence complicate such a thing?

If you mean Ruin and Preservation being subsumed into Harmony meaning that they no longer have a distinct Identity and Intent, then no, they're still separate on some level, though intermingled enough that separating would take some effort despite their opposing nature.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/368-skyward-san-diego-signing/#e12351

Questioner

If Sazed got bored one day, could he split the two Shards he has?

Brandon Sanderson

Read And Find Out.

Questioner

So for right now, there are fifteen Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Right now, there are sixteen Shards, but fifteen Vessels. Well, not even that, 'cause, you know.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190-rfantasy-ama-2013/#e4115

Thanatos17901

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

If you mean they're subsumed as in their own potential for independent personalities is smooshed by becoming part of Harmony, then I'd also say no. I have a(n excited) feeling that Sazed's shadow could be a personification of Ruin, assuming it's gaining a mind of it's own. Or, maybe it's like an Avatar comprised of Harmony's excess Ruin.

If you didn't mean either, than it appears I am incapable of basic interpersonal observation.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

I don't see Honor as developing a personality so much as accreting something that appears to resemble a personality but is actually the result of layered damage.  In other words, Honor's bearers tortured it and broke it until it learned how to scream.  I just wanna hug that poor philosophical concept and promise it that I'll find it a good bearer who won't be a promise-breaking piece of garbage until it can go back to existing as a conceptual overlay of fundamental truth and stop mimicking aware existence just to get people to figure out that violating its fundamental purpose causes it strain.

Edited January 8 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Returned he/him]

I think you're interpreting my ramblings correctly. Since Preservation and Ruin are fused together (they can't just spontaneously split, they're stably one thing which happens to have two distinct components) they either have some combined identity or they're separate but handcuffed together and have to learn to live with each other. The WoB stating that Sazed would drop Harmony if he died suggests to me that it tilts a little bit more towards the former but still has a substantial amount of the latter. Certainly the sixteen aspects weren't so distinct back when they were all a part of Adonalsium, since we know that Adonalsium could have been split into totally different Shards instead of the ones we know.

That leads to my follow-up question of what the effects might be if Sazed were to be aligned better with one of Harmony's component's intent over the other. They're intermingled enough that it doesn't seem like the more poorly-aligned component can buck the vessel in the same way that Honor did with Tanavast, nor overwhelm the vessel as Ruin did with Ati or (to a perhaps lesser extent) Odium did with Rayse. That's the heart of my Ruin-dumping idea, though evidence for it is still scant. The idea of a Ruinous avatar forming, something that expresses ruin in the short term but might do the work to tear Ruin out of Harmony in the longer term, is also an intriguing idea. Circling around to the original post once again, maybe that's even Autonomy's angle (whether or not it is also Bavadins): the Shards shouldn't be stuck with human vessels that constantly impinge on what they fundamentally are.

As for Honor developing a personality I was referring more to the comments Sanderson has made that enough Investiture, left unbound to a vessel for long enough, will start to develop its own sapience. WaT expressed that Honor had developed in that direction to at least some degree and for that reason, which was suggested as a wrinkle Taravangian might ultimately have to deal with.