Qianweilian He/him Posted January 3 Posted January 3 There's always another secret. Theory is as stated in the title, specifically through Margel, Spook's mother. First let's start off with the assumption that Rashek has had children, which is confirmed by a couple of WoBs. Quote Questioner Does the Lord Ruler have children? Brandon Sanderson So, I've been dodgy about this before, but the answer is yes, the Lord Ruler did have children. I don't think I've-- I've strongly hinted at it, and so I think people basically know. But yes, he did... But it is children. Ad Astra 2017 (May 5, 2017) Quote Questioner So did the Lord Ruler ever have children? Brandon Sanderson Did the Lord Ruler ever have children? Yes he did. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) Quote Questioner Did the Lord Ruler ever have any children? Brandon Sanderson Yes, he did. Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 22, 2017) Quote Little Wilson Have we seen any of them [Rashek's children] in Era 2? Brandon Sanderson Any of the Lord Ruler's descendents? Little Wilson Yes. Brandon Sanderson Yes... Little Wilson Where? Brandon Sanderson It is not necessarily... Um... I'm not gonna answer that. Zas678 Is it-- Are they just descendants in the same way that, you know, after two thou-- after thirteen hundred years they're all descendants? Brandon Sanderson You will-- They're not all, but there's a lot of them, percentage-wise. So it's not like you're... Zas678 Specially just kind of... Brandon Sanderson You're looking for something that's not really there. I'll go ahead and tell you that. There are descendants of the Lord Ruler. But it's not like they have some secret coven or anything like that. At least-- Zas678 The Illuminati! Brandon Sanderson At least, you know, there are-- there are-- How should I say? It's not outside of reason that there are people who are descendants of the Lord Ruler who are part of a coven or something. But you know what I'm saying? Zas678 Yeah, it's not like... super secret magic power society. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, mhm. Zas678 There could be a group of people who are like, "We're so much better." Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016) Quote Argent Did the Lord Ruler have children? Either as Rashek or as the Sliver of Infinity? Brandon Sanderson Yes. /r/books AMA 2015 (May 29, 2015) Quote Questioner How many times did Rashek fall in love? Brandon Sanderson RAFO! YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025) This at least presents the possibility that Spook is related to TLR, but I still have more evidence. The RAFOs on seeming innocent questions suggest that some big knowledge about Rashek is yet to be revealed. We know that Allomancy runs in Spooks family, with his uncle being a coppercloud and possibly more empowered relatives: Quote "Problems like his run in the family, they do," another man said. The room grew quiet. They all knew about Spook's family. HoA pg 198 Continuing the Allomantic side of things, we know that many Inquisitors were able to pierce copperclouds (see below), yet Clubs' (Spook's uncle) coppercloud is never penetrated throughout TFE. Spook is also Clubs' "best" tineye, which feels odd considering how Tin merely enhances senses. It feels like most of them would have approximately equal abilities. It would make sense that they would have a higher level of ability than regular mistings, suggesting a powerful ancestor. (Perhaps the most powerful mistborn ever...) Of course, most of this evidence is fairly circumstantial, not indicative of anything by itself. Now, I'd like to make a genetic argument. Spook and TLR share many physical traits. TLR is tall, dark (haired), and handsome. Spook is also thin and tall, even at 14. Quote Handsome, with jet black hair and pale skin, the Lord Ruler was tall, thin, and confident. And he was young—younger than Vin would have expected, even younger than Kelsier. TFE pg 571 Quote Thin, tall, and awkward-looking, he was dressed in gray clothing. He was perhaps fourteen, though his height might have made him look older than he was. TFE pg 109 We also know that most Terris are tall and thin, if Spook has some Terris heritage, it would explain his build. Quote Rashek is a tall man—of course, most of these Terrismen are tall. TFE pg 128 Quote Hand on his gun, Waxillium sauntered up to the bar. The barkeep was a tall man who looked to have some Terris blood in him, from that willowy build... SoS Prologue (Don't have pg #'s available rn) Most of this is relatively minor in and out of itself, but they all add together in an interesting way. There's a lot we don't know about Spook, from his time with gangs (learning what is now High Imperial), to his time with Clubs, and most importantly, after the Catacendre. 3
TwinStorm He/Him Posted January 3 Posted January 3 I really like this theory his grandfather also had noble blood according to the Coppermind, the key being that the grandfather is not noble in himself, but descended from one
Qianweilian He/him Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 15 minutes ago, TwinStorm said: his grandfather also had noble blood We know the grandfather can't be TLR (probably great grandfather or older) because we have it confirmed that we haven't met any of his children and Margel is onscreen in HoA.
Frustration Posted January 3 Posted January 3 I suppose it's a possibility that TLR is somewhere in spooks ancestry, but I doubt it's recent enough to have a real influence. Spoiler Chaos You have said the fandom puts too much emphasis on the Lord Ruler's children. Is that because the Lord Ruler suppressed his ability to pass on his abilities to them? Brandon Sanderson No. Chaos Brandon, that makes no sense. What? Now I'm even more upset. It's actually my fault, 'cause I keep telling people that the Lord Ruler's kids should be important, so you can blame me. Brandon Sanderson People can be important and not be cosmere-relevant. Chaos Yeah, but they'd be like super-powerful Mistborn! Brandon Sanderson Yes, who died nine hundred years ago! Chaos But he spent so much time getting Feruchemy away from Allomancy! Brandon Sanderson Yeah, that's true. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/369/#e11711 1
Hoid Slayer He/Him Posted January 3 Posted January 3 Wait up, correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t all Allomancers descended from the Lord Ruler? Like who else took Lerasium? I’m probably wrong
Schizoposting Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) It's almost certainly true that Spook is descended from Rashek, just like Vin, Kelsier, or Wax. In fact, almost everyone with noble blood is descended from the Lord Ruler. Suppose that he had two children, and each of his descendants has an average of two children of their own every 20 years. That would mean that over the span of 1000 years, he would have ~2^50 descendants... which is many orders of magnitude higher than the total population of the Final Empire. Obviously, this calculation is flawed, because at a certain point, Rashek's descendants would have to start having children with each other, which would make the number of his descendants asymptotically approach the total population of the Final Empire. It's the same way that basically every person with European ancestry is probably descended from Muhammad or Ramesses II. So, there is absolutely nothing meaningful about this relation, even though it almost certainly exists. Edit: @Qianweilian, this ancestry would have zero genetic impact on Spook, since even a great grandparent can be expected to only contribute about 1/8 of a person's genome. And if Rashek was closely related to Spook, then we'd expect him to be a very powerful allomacer. Edited January 3 by Schizoposting 1
Returned he/him Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said: Wait up, correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t all Allomancers descended from the Lord Ruler? Like who else took Lerasium? I’m probably wrong Rashek gave his strongest supporters lerasium after his ascension, and they were the original high nobility and the first mistborn/allomancers (as we know them, allomancy existed but worked differently before this event). Presumably Rashek's descendants would also be likely to be powerful allomancers for the same reasons, but the original nobility and (modern-style) allomancers did not have any relation to Rashek beyond him favoring them. Edited January 3 by Returned 3
Hoid Slayer He/Him Posted January 3 Posted January 3 4 minutes ago, Returned said: Rashek gave his strongest supporters lerasium after his ascension, and they were the original high nobility and the first mistborn/allomancers (as we know them, allomancy existed but worked differently before this event). Presumably Rashek's descendants would also be likely to be powerful allomancers for the same reasons, but the original nobility and (modern-style) allomancers did not have any relation to Rashek beyond him favoring them. Ahh ok thanks
Qianweilian He/him Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 39 minutes ago, Schizoposting said: In fact, almost everyone with noble blood is descended from the Lord Ruler. What I'm assuming is a more recent relation. I should have been clearer about the level of familiarity I thought was plausible. 40 minutes ago, Schizoposting said: And if Rashek was closely related to Spook, then we'd expect him to be a very powerful allomacer. Spook is a very powerful allomancer. While a lot of his ability is from his savantism, he was Club's best tineye (autocorrected to ribeye) even before Kelsier died and he became a savant. As I mentioned in the original post, Clubs probably is too.
Schizoposting Posted January 3 Posted January 3 1 minute ago, Qianweilian said: What I'm assuming is a more recent relation. I should have been clearer about the level of familiarity I thought was plausible. Spook is a very powerful allomancer. While a lot of his ability is from his savantism, he was Club's best tineye (autocorrected to ribeye) even before Kelsier died and he became a savant. As I mentioned in the original post, Clubs probably is too. The problem is that positing that Rashek is Spook's great-grandfather, creates more problems than it solves. The specific things that you noted are completely circumstantial and can be easily explained away; contrawise, it's implausible that nobody would be aware of this close relation—any child of the Lord Ruler would be a big deal, and people would almost certainly keep track of them and their immediate descendants. I think what a lot of fans forget when it comes to plot twists, is that they should serve some purpose; from a narrative perspective, Spook being Rashek's descendant would serve no purpose other than cheap shock value—which would be bad writing.
Qianweilian He/him Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 1 minute ago, Schizoposting said: people would almost certainly keep track of them and their immediate descendants. Really? It would be fairly easy to disappear said children. No one counts the skaa. Even if they were placed as a noble, it would be fairly easy for the Steel Ministry to fabricate records. Even if everyone knew this child's ancestry, then the memory would vanish within a generation unless they created a new Great House. 5 minutes ago, Schizoposting said: Spook being Rashek's descendant would serve no purpose other than cheap shock value—which would be bad writing. Unless the Lord Mistborn knew his the Bands of Mourning worked and how they were drained. He was older than 15 when the Catacendre occurred, then ruled a 100 years after as the Lord Mistborn, and then stepped down. Civilization was built up from the ground and he lived to (at least) 115? Spook clearly had some source of longevity and we know he was working with Kelsier, so he probably had access to them. I think it could tie some things together.
Schizoposting Posted January 3 Posted January 3 21 minutes ago, Qianweilian said: Really? It would be fairly easy to disappear said children. No one counts the skaa. Even if they were placed as a noble, it would be fairly easy for the Steel Ministry to fabricate records. Even if everyone knew this child's ancestry, then the memory would vanish within a generation unless they created a new Great House. You can always come up with some sort of ad hoc explanation to hand wave away any and all issues, but this leads to an ever more convoluted theory to solve a non-existent problem. You can certainly believe whatever you wish, but I don't see what this is supposed to add to our interpretation of the Cosmere. 27 minutes ago, Qianweilian said: Unless the Lord Mistborn knew his the Bands of Mourning worked and how they were drained. He was older than 15 when the Catacendre occurred, then ruled a 100 years after as the Lord Mistborn, and then stepped down. Civilization was built up from the ground and he lived to (at least) 115? Spook clearly had some source of longevity and we know he was working with Kelsier, so he probably had access to them. I think it could tie some things together. I'm sorry but this is an example of the problem with the emphasis on "lore"; I am discussing the narrative and thematic purposes of a twist.
Returned he/him Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) 10 hours ago, Qianweilian said: Really? It would be fairly easy to disappear said children. No one counts the skaa. Even if they were placed as a noble, it would be fairly easy for the Steel Ministry to fabricate records. Even if everyone knew this child's ancestry, then the memory would vanish within a generation unless they created a new Great House. This is probably what happened with the descendants that we already know exist, but even less involved. Given how he ruled, I think it very unlikely that the Lord Ruler (in that mode or as Rashek pre-ascension) would acknowledge his offspring after the ascension. Even though the Lord Ruler's control of information was very tight I don't think that there would even be records of this in the first place. He wouldn't have much use for official descendants given that he intended to rule forever. I don't think that Spook is meaningfully related to Rashek, however. It's not that it's impossible or anything, I just don't see much reason to think that he would be nor what the significance would be. Being tall isn't very strong evidence on its own, and everything about him post-Catacendre I would probably attribute to Sazed. I am curious about what effects, if any, holding a Shard (even temporarily) would have on the vessel's descendants. The effects of having burned lerasium were pretty meaningful over generations. I wonder what a closer relationship with the Lord Ruler might involve, Spook or otherwise. Stronger allomantic potential, more investiture, latent Feruchemy? Edited January 4 by Returned
alder24 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 21 hours ago, Qianweilian said: There's always another secret. Theory is as stated in the title, specifically through Margel, Spook's mother. First let's start off with the assumption that Rashek has had children, which is confirmed by a couple of WoBs. This at least presents the possibility that Spook is related to TLR, but I still have more evidence. The RAFOs on seeming innocent questions suggest that some big knowledge about Rashek is yet to be revealed. We know that Allomancy runs in Spooks family, with his uncle being a coppercloud and possibly more empowered relatives: Continuing the Allomantic side of things, we know that many Inquisitors were able to pierce copperclouds (see below), yet Clubs' (Spook's uncle) coppercloud is never penetrated throughout TFE. Spook is also Clubs' "best" tineye, which feels odd considering how Tin merely enhances senses. It feels like most of them would have approximately equal abilities. It would make sense that they would have a higher level of ability than regular mistings, suggesting a powerful ancestor. (Perhaps the most powerful mistborn ever...) Of course, most of this evidence is fairly circumstantial, not indicative of anything by itself. Now, I'd like to make a genetic argument. Spook and TLR share many physical traits. TLR is tall, dark (haired), and handsome. Spook is also thin and tall, even at 14. We also know that most Terris are tall and thin, if Spook has some Terris heritage, it would explain his build. Most of this is relatively minor in and out of itself, but they all add together in an interesting way. There's a lot we don't know about Spook, from his time with gangs (learning what is now High Imperial), to his time with Clubs, and most importantly, after the Catacendre. Brandon basically keeps telling us in those WoBs that yes, Rashek had kids, but they are not that important and by now half of Scadrial can be considered his descendants simply due to how diluted his blood is. It's similar to how there are millions of people related to Genghis Khan, but just because they are related to the great conqueror doesn't mean they are important now after hundreds of years. If Spook was directly and closely related to Rashek, his Allomancy would be off the charts. Rashek's power exceeded even that of Lerasium Mistborns as he gave it himself using the power of the Well. If Rashek was Spook grandfather or something like that, Spook would be stronger with tin than Eland was. Yet he was a normal tineye. His skill came not from raw power but from lots and lots of practice. And he could practice safely under Clubs protection. That's all. It's possible that Clubs either got lucky and avoided Inquisitors all this time, or he was a savant and could resist their double bronze. Also, even though Inquisitors can pierce Copperclouds, the pulse they hear is faint so they would have to get close to Clubs to sense their pulses. That explains why he wasn't caught by them all those years - he wasn't relying on his copper alone, he had a legitimate business and the crew always made sure to lose anyone following them before going back. TFE ch 30&31: Quote Then, oddly, she thought she sensed something. An Allomantic pulse in the night. Faint. Hidden. But enough. [...] But suddenly, as she focused harder, something else drew her attention. A more familiar rhythm, coming from Kelsier. It was faint, difficult to feel over the pulsing of her own heartbeat. It was a bold beat, and quick. Brandon also confirmed that we haven't seen any of Rashek's kids in books and we've seen Spook parents on pages so they can't be his kids. His kids are more important to the plot to end the Final Empire Rashek once had than to the events of Era 1. And RAFO's don't have to mean that there is some hidden secret there, simply that Brandon is not ready to canonise it yet. I'm more interested in Lutha: Spoiler Argent There seems to be a certain parallel between the naming of Elendel and Luthadel. If the former is named after Elend, is the latter named after somebody called Lutha? Luthad? Who is (was?) that? Brandon Sanderson Good Question! Yes, there is a person this city is named after. But I'm not ready to give specifics. /r/books AMA 2015 (May 22, 2015) Spoiler Questioner You've mentioned that the Lord Ruler had children? Have we been introduced to any of them in the books? Brandon Sanderson No. Questioner Interesting. But they're out there? Brandon Sanderson Well, they were. It's been a while... Descendants, potentially. You have not met any of the Lord Ruler's children. Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018) Spoiler Questioner Who is the Lord Ruler’s child/children? Brandon Sanderson People are searching a little too hard for this, he had several, they mixed with the population. There might be specific individuals who claim heirship and things like that but it’s not like there’s one hidden person among the population, does that make sense? Even those who claim heirship may not have any more blood than a lot of other people. I think this is one where fans have latched onto it a little too strongly and I need to let them know they can back off, there’s not a big secret for them to be hunting. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) Spoiler Chaos Did the Lord Ruler's children have something to do with the Lord Ruler's plot to once "give up" in the Final Empire? Brandon Sanderson Yes. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015)
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