Unoathed vs. Mistborn

DoctaDajman · December 21, 2025

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

As for his shard shield again, he can only protect himself from one angle. Whereas a Mistborn can make attack from several angles, so the shield is as good as useless.

Plot armor aside if Kal is capable of making the perfect shot to hit a person in plate in one place not perfected by armor as an ordinary man. Then surely a Mistborn is capable of a similar feat with far less plot armor. Coinshots are deadly accurate.

Wax doesn’t need Duriluim he has all the power he needs. Thanks to his metal minds to bury the unoathed under debris. Maybe the unoathed could survive a literal building falling on him but he would be trapped

I used to be 100% mistborn in these situations. But shards block the lines for steel and iron. A mistborn cant pull anything into the unoathed because they will never be able to access lines that belong to objects behind the unoathed. If the unoathed can face the mistborn and track it then they can use a shardshield and I honestly dont even think duralumin enhanced cannonball shots are going to crack a sliver of honor.

I believe the Unoathed also can hear the living plate and blade/ shield / whatever speaking to them... so it is unlikely the mistborn is going to get some angel that the unoathed is unprepared for because they are literally surrounded and protected by spren capable of communicating the mistborns position to the man inside the suit.

If a building toppled onto the shardbearer there isnt a huge worry. It may be time consuming, but their kit is built for magically cutting through the debris and moving it. Shardplate strength is easily 3x what even flared pewter is.

Again, I love the mistborn and I am always rooting for them in these situations but we arent talking about dead shards here. The mistborn is fighting an army of lesser spren whose only job is protecting the unoathed and they are fighting the unoathed themselves plus a greater spren who is indestructible within the physical realm and capable of severing souls with a touch.

Mistborn vs full shardbearer is a lot different topic. One that the mistborn stands a far greater chance at winning.

But unoathed arent wearing dead plate and using deadeye blades. These spren are once again cooperative and living that they use. Totally different ballgame and I fear for my mistborn friends.

1 hour ago, Cosmer said:

But he gets 1 coin lodged or pinned correctly, increases weight, and sends the SB flying…repeat.

I am very biased with Wax…might be my favorite character so forgive me a blind spot. But he could level cities before any Lerasium upgrade.

I feel this. I think Wax is built well to survive for a while against the unoathed (we keep saying shardbearer but again these arent your typical shardbearers. They have living plate and blade which is, honestly epic). Iron feruchemy synergy with steel is great. Good enough to take out Adolin with living plate and blade? I doubt it. Shardshield likely wont break even to wax.

I am happy to see Adolin get a bit of love in all of this and an upgrade. Dude hasnt leveled up in 5 books really so it was dang time.

Immortal Platypus · December 21, 2025

8 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

That can’t be right I’m pretty sure there’s a literal wob that says this. I don’t have a printed copy of the book so I can’t look up these pages can someone else I am certain that nowhere in all storm like does it ever betray stormlight as in increasing strength. Energy yes but not strength.

I looked through every WOB with the "stormlight" tag, and there were no WOBs that say that. In fact, there was only one that mentioned strength at all. I did however, find one not tagged with "stormlight", but from my POV it also seems to support the position that stormlight enhances strength.

Spoiler

NotBurtReynolds

Can Stormlight give enough extra strength that a humanoid could use a Shardbow w/out Plate?

Brandon Sanderson

Not normally.

General Signed Books 2018 (Feb. 21, 2018)

"not normally" to me implies that it does give some strength or Brandon would've just said that stormlight doesn't give strength. It also implies there is a way to get more from it.

TheDanfromSpace

Could Dalinar lift stones of equivalent weight to the statue [in Thaylen City]? Assuming enough Stormlight. Or was that extra strength part of his Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

You are correct--Dalinar could not lift stones of equivalent weight in other circumstances.

General Reddit 2020 (March 5, 2020)

I can't tell if that means his stormlight granted some strength but not enough without some Bondsmithy shenanigans or if it means he couldn't have lifted them without stormlight

Quote

If In The unoathed rearrange his armor then that would leave him vulnerable on some part of his body. the perfect opening for a Mistborn I could see tricking a unoathed to do just that.

I don't think there's a world where the Mistborn tricks an Unoathed into rearragning their armor into an inferior setup. How would they even do that? The Unoathed knows they need to protect the vitals, anything else they can potentially sack.

Quote

Plot armor aside if Kal is capable of making the perfect shot to hit a person in plate in one place not perfected by armor as an ordinary man. Then surely a Mistborn is capable of a similar feat with far less plot armor. Coinshots are deadly accurate.

again, the person was distracted, and I'm still pretty sure Unoathed/living Plate can seal the eye slit and they can still see.

Quote

Wax doesn’t need Duriluim he has all the power he needs. Thanks to his metal minds to bury the unoathed under debris. Maybe the unoathed could survive a literal building falling on him but he would be trapped

not a chance. Even if he got buried under a building, his tool kit gets him out easy. and if he got trapped, Wax would also be trapped. Plus, where in the world is this building coming from, they're fighting in an arena of sorts. also, please see my retort against wax's metalminds/chances in a fight below.

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Fair enough, but I was mainly talking about durability anyways I don’t see any references through enhancing that. I’m not sure how much of a strength boost baseline pewter gives you, but I would assume it was probably above 2x no it will definitely have to be above 2X. There’s no way vin could casually use a kollos sword in one hand, even with twice her strength. So again, my point stands it does not compare. It grants no durability, and doesn’t grant nearly the same level of strength, even if it does grant some.

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says that burning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

3 hours ago, Cosmer said:

But he gets 1 coin lodged or pinned correctly, increases weight, and sends the SB flying…repeat.

I am very biased with Wax…might be my favorite character so forgive me a blind spot. But he could level cities before any Lerasium upgrade.

1. Where is he supposed to lodge a coin? in the chinks in the Plate? Those don't exist. Pin it against the Unoathed's chest? All he has to do is slice through the allomantic line with his Blade (accidentally or intentionally, and I bet if he does it once, the blade spren will be able to tell that it killed/damaged something (though that is entirely unsupported by evidence, it just feels to me like something that would happen)) or turn in a circle because Plate blocks allomantic lines. I'm sure there are other ways to stop that too.

2. He won't be able to throw the Unoathed around repeatedly, especially not without throwing himself around. He needs to give himself a ton of weight to be equal to the Unoathed, let alone heavier, let alone heavier enough to casually throw around the Unoathed. Feruchemy gives diminishing returns, so he's going to burn through his stores really, really, really fast. Depending on the size/number/fullness of his metalminds, he might not even be able to throw the Unoathed effectively once. Remember, even if he can throw the Unoathed, unless he significantly outweighs them (which is really hard) he's also going flying, and he doesn't have anywhere near the protection that Plate offers.

Spoiler

Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Edited December 21, 2025 by Ookla the Inactive
formatting

Cosmer · December 21, 2025

@Ookla the Inactive again if this is being played out on the shattered plains, Mistborn or Wax lose for sure. No anchors.

However…if they’ve got anchors to push against the weight isn’t an issue. Wax’s weight then becomes just a nice to have as he’s moving around between anchors.

IMO Cutting the steel lines is nice in theory…in practice, I imagine it’s much harder when you’re getting hit hard in the chest with a ton of force.

Immortal Platypus · December 21, 2025

1 hour ago, Cosmer said:

@Ookla the Inactive again if this is being played out on the shattered plains, Mistborn or Wax lose for sure. No anchors.

However…if they’ve got anchors to push against the weight isn’t an issue. Wax’s weight then becomes just a nice to have as he’s moving around between anchors.

IMO Cutting the steel lines is nice in theory…in practice, I imagine it’s much harder when you’re getting hit hard in the chest with a ton of force.

even if they have anchors, the weight is a huge issue. The mistborn/wax could literally kill themselves trying to push the Unoathed they weigh so much. You seem to be forgetting that all the force that Pushing still follows newton's 3rd law, that for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Say the Mistborn has a building behind them they're using to anchor themselves, and say they also have a coin pushed on the Unoathed's chest that they're using to try to throw them around with. It's not as though the building itself is Pushing on the coin, all the force needs to come from the Mistborn, meaning their body needs to be able to sustain the massive amount of force that the Unoathed is taking. My explanation of this was really poor, so sorry if you don't understand it, but the basic idea is that by the time the Mistborn has enough force to meaningfully move the Unoathed, that same force would crush them. They don't have anywhere near the mass to sustain a push like that.

Also, I'd still like to hear your ideas for how the Mistborn is going to consistently push the Unoathed? I still think it can't be lodging, so it would have to be just pushing a coin (or several) against the chest and pinning it there with a Push. I still don't think this works, as the coins would largely have to be centered which is hard to do, and then if the Unoathed turns to the side the coins fly off, possibly irretrievably because the Mistborn can't pull them through the Unoathed.

It would be harder in practice, but with the guiding of a sprenblade, I think it's possible. I don't think they're getting hit in the chest with enough force for it to matter without the Mistborn killing themselves.

Nitpicking · December 22, 2025

9 hours ago, Immortal Platypus said:

Also, I'd still like to hear your ideas for how the Mistborn is going to consistently push the Unoathed? I still think it can't be lodging, so it would have to be just pushing a coin (or several) against the chest and pinning it there with a Push. I still don't think this works, as the coins would largely have to be centered which is hard to do, and then if the Unoathed turns to the side the coins fly off, possibly irretrievably because the Mistborn can't pull them through the Unoathed.

If I was a Coinshot and knew about Plate in advance I'd bring along some chains. They're a liability when fighting other Metalborn, but against one of the Unoathed they'd be super useful.

bmcclure7 · December 22, 2025

17 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

I used to be 100% mistborn in these situations. But shards block the lines for steel and iron. A mistborn cant pull anything into the unoathed because they will never be able to access lines that belong to objects behind the unoathed. If the unoathed can face the mistborn and track it then they can use a shardshield and I honestly dont even think duralumin enhanced cannonball shots are going to crack a sliver of honor.

I believe the Unoathed also can hear the living plate and blade/ shield / whatever speaking to them... so it is unlikely the mistborn is going to get some angel that the unoathed is unprepared for because they are literally surrounded and protected by spren capable of communicating the mistborns position to the man inside the suit.

If a building toppled onto the shardbearer there isnt a huge worry. It may be time consuming, but their kit is built for magically cutting through the debris and moving it. Shardplate strength is easily 3x what even flared pewter is.

Again, I love the mistborn and I am always rooting for them in these situations but we arent talking about dead shards here. The mistborn is fighting an army of lesser spren whose only job is protecting the unoathed and they are fighting the unoathed themselves plus a greater spren who is indestructible within the physical realm and capable of severing souls with a touch.

Mistborn vs full shardbearer is a lot different topic. One that the mistborn stands a far greater chance at winning.

But unoathed arent wearing dead plate and using deadeye blades. These spren are once again cooperative and living that they use. Totally different ballgame and I fear for my mistborn friends.

I feel this. I think Wax is built well to survive for a while against the unoathed (we keep saying shardbearer but again these arent your typical shardbearers. They have living plate and blade which is, honestly epic). Iron feruchemy synergy with steel is great. Good enough to take out Adolin with living plate and blade? I doubt it. Shardshield likely wont break even to wax.

I am happy to see Adolin get a bit of love in all of this and an upgrade. Dude hasnt leveled up in 5 books really so it was dang time.

What evidence do you have for this?

Immortal Platypus · December 22, 2025

10 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

If I was a Coinshot and knew about Plate in advance I'd bring along some chains. They're a liability when fighting other Metalborn, but against one of the Unoathed they'd be super useful.

yes, if you knew about plate in advance. I could see that being useful, but you're still not going to be heavy enough to throw around the Unoathed, and chains will only restrict their movement so much. It would, however, be better than nothing.

Frustration · December 22, 2025

On 12/21/2025 at 1:21 AM, bmcclure7 said:

8 feet is impressive to a normal human that compared to what a Mistborn is capable of not really a Mistborn is capable going much higher.

8 Rosharan feet, closer to 9 Imperial(US) feet.

Then you add the reach of the shardblade on top of that, so an extra 7 feet. While mistborn CAN get more than 16 feet in the air they need a larger anchor than a coin to do that.

Quote

If In The unoathed rearrange his armor then that would leave him vulnerable on some part of his body. the perfect opening for a Mistborn I could see tricking a unoathed to do just that.

You can't kill them immediately by having them expose their arm.

But they can save themselves from potential death by exposing their arms to protect their chest.

Quote

Plot armor aside if Kal is capable of making the perfect shot to hit a person in plate in one place not perfected by armor as an ordinary man. Then surely a Mistborn is capable of a similar feat with far less plot armor. Coinshots are deadly accurate.

Eyeslits in normal armor are only 3-4mm wide.

Hitting that with a coin, which has to be angled the correct way or it won't fit through is beyond human.

And Kaladin was beginning to form his bond as we can see from the flashbacks at the end of the book Syl has been following him around for awhile and sticking things together.

On 12/21/2025 at 6:11 AM, Cosmer said:

But he gets 1 coin lodged or pinned correctly, increases weight, and sends the SB flying…repeat.

Plate armor is rounded so the coins will slide off before launching the Unoathed, and even if they didn't, under Rosharan gravity plate weighs 100 stones. Assuming that Rosharan weight measurements aren't larger even though all their other measurements are that puts shardplate under Scadrian gravity at 2000 pounds.

If the rosharan units of weight are greater that's 2200 pounds. That's without the person inside, which I'll assume to be 180 pounds due to their abnormal height.

So between 2180-2380 pounds. Wax has to tap close to 10× his weight just to be equal. Not even to throw them like dolls, just to be equal.

Then if they slam their blade into the ground they have an anchor too.

10 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

What evidence do you have for this?

Which part?

bmcclure7 · December 22, 2025

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

8 Rosharan feet, closer to 9 Imperial(US) feet.

Then you add the reach of the shardblade on top of that, so an extra 7 feet. While mistborn CAN get more than 16 feet in the air they need a larger anchor than a coin to do that.

You can't kill them immediately by having them expose their arm.

But they can save themselves from potential death by exposing their arms to protect their chest.

Eyeslits in normal armor are only 3-4mm wide.

Hitting that with a coin, which has to be angled the correct way or it won't fit through is beyond human.

And Kaladin was beginning to form his bond as we can see from the flashbacks at the end of the book Syl has been following him around for awhile and sticking things together.

Plate armor is rounded so the coins will slide off before launching the Unoathed, and even if they didn't, under Rosharan gravity plate weighs 100 stones. Assuming that Rosharan weight measurements aren't larger even though all their other measurements are that puts shardplate under Scadrian gravity at 2000 pounds.

If the rosharan units of weight are greater that's 2200 pounds. That's without the person inside, which I'll assume to be 180 pounds due to their abnormal height.

So between 2180-2380 pounds. Wax has to tap close to 10× his weight just to be equal. Not even to throw them like dolls, just to be equal.

Then if they slam their blade into the ground they have an anchor too.

Which part?

1. it’s a good thing. We’re talking about a Mistborn not a human they aren’t limited to what is humanly possible.

2. Keyword there is kill them immediately. Let me introduce you to something called blood loss.

3. Why are you limiting them to just coins? Even if this took Place in a Rosharain city there should still be plenty of metal around

4. I was responding to someone else’s comment that fight or blade could block blue steal lines

@Frustration

I was just in another discussion where it was pointed out a copper cloud should block a shard blade/plate from being summoned according to wobs so this fight actually might be over or actually begun in the right circumstances

Edited December 22, 2025 by bmcclure7

Frustration · December 22, 2025

13 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. it’s a good thing. We’re talking about a Mistborn not a human they aren’t limited to what is humanly possible.

As in no human, not even one who is a mistborn can pull it off.

14 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. Keyword there is kill them immediately. Let me introduce you to something called blood loss.

And how is blood loss from the arms more beneficial to the mistborn than a shot at the abdominal cavity and the important organs that are stored there?

15 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. Why are you limiting them to just coins? Even if this took Place in a Rosharain city there should still be plenty of metal around

In the OP I said this takes place in an arena. Not a city, no ambient metal to take advantage of.

16 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. I was responding to someone else’s comment that fight or blade could block blue steal lines

Shards are highly invested enough that they wouldn't be able to pull on obj3cts through the plate.

And sharblades can cut steel lines

Spoiler

Oneyespike (paraphrased)

Can a Shardblade interrupt iron or steel lines?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*after mulling it over a bit, he was very interested in this question* "It would be theoretically possible, because steel lines manifest themselves on the Spiritual Realm. Also, there are other things that can cut/interfere with steel lines."

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/70/#e2796

bmcclure7 · December 22, 2025

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

As in no human, not even one who is a mistborn can pull it off.

And how is blood loss from the arms more beneficial to the mistborn than a shot at the abdominal cavity and the important organs that are stored there?

In the OP I said this takes place in an arena. Not a city, no ambient metal to take advantage of.

Shards are highly invested enough that they wouldn't be able to pull on obj3cts through the plate.

And sharblades can cut steel lines

Hide contents

Oneyespike (paraphrased)

Can a Shardblade interrupt iron or steel lines?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*after mulling it over a bit, he was very interested in this question* "It would be theoretically possible, because steel lines manifest themselves on the Spiritual Realm. Also, there are other things that can cut/interfere with steel lines."

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/70/#e2796

1. keyword there is theoretically possible.

2. I was just in another discussion where it was pointed out a copper cloud should block a shard blade/plate from being summoned according to wobs so this fight actually might be over or actually begun in the right circumstances.

3. Why would an arena not have metal?

4. Sure it’s not more beneficial, but it’s still beneficial. My decapitation is more beneficial to my opponent than a my cut. But 1000 cuts will still kill me just to same.

DoctaDajman · December 22, 2025

22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. I was just in another discussion where it was pointed out a copper cloud should block a shard blade/plate from being summoned according to wobs so this fight actually might be over or actually begun in the right circumstances.

There is a WoB that says you cant summon a blade while a leecher is touching you. That probably works with armor too.

However copper doesnt impact other people outside of it. Even at its best use it protects only the user from specific invested attacks. It may stop people from hearing pulses but I dont think it is going to stop shard summoning at all as the only thing I have seen on that was in regards to Chromium use not copper.

I believe coppercloud could make spren act strange to an extent but once the spren are present enough to be forming shards I dont think it would have much effect. I would place the burden of proof for it happening on the other side for that though.

Edit:

This does not even say that the shardbearer would desummon the shard if a leecher grabed them. Investiture resists investiture I dont even think a leecher could stop the unoathed from swapping weapon forms so long as the shardplate was between the leecher and the unoathed.

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Leecher was holding a Shardbearer and burning [chromium], would the Shardbearer be able to summon their Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

Spoiler

Questioner

If you were a Leecher, could you destroy a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to RAFO that for now, let's just say that it would be incredibly difficult if it were possible, and I'm not going to even say if it is. But that kind of power...

Questioner

Let's just say they were burning duralumin as well.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that the Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer, but... This type of thing is not unheard of in the Cosmere. The larkin, the Leechers, and Nightblood all have a similar sort of thing going on. Destroying a Shardblade would be really hard. And Investiture resists other forms of Investiture, so.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5023

22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. Sure it’s not more beneficial, but it’s still beneficial. My decapitation is more beneficial to my opponent than a my cut. But 1000 cuts will still kill me just to same.

I imagine the plate would be able to tamponade fairly well small cuts. Even if you lost a leg or an arm I think the armor would be able compensate. Not necessarily healing you but compression and prosthetic all in one.

I just dont know that a mistborn is getting through the plate at all. Duralumin steel is your only bet and long term I think it opens the mistborn up to much to use it. Especially if the unoathed can swap shardblade into a shield... or even use the flat of the blade to block it.

I am super curious to know if we have seen a shardblade, dead or alive, die away or disappear following any sort of attack, especially kinetic.

Its really just that these shards are alive and able to self regenerate... the mistborn is cooked 9/10 times. The lucky eyeslit shot is its only real chance.

22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. Why would an arena not have metal?

This is another part of why they lose 9/10. This arena is absolutely set in the unoathed's favor. I dont think they need it because I think even in a city block the mistborn will lose due to running out of resources.

Once upon a time the argument was that you crack the plate and then hide until it leaks all of the stormlight. Or you crack it and leech it quickly. But it isnt happening against living plate connected directly to the Spiritual Realm. The mistborn has to break and shatter enough of the plate in a single attack to cripple it. I dont see it happening even if a building fell on top of the unoathed. Eventually the mistborn in an arena will run out of metals. Then they are a sitting duck. The best they can do is hide.

Put this in another scenario and it could be different. It is odd to limit a mistborn to 16 metals, some of which were not available until guns were, but no access to atium or guns.

Give the mistborn a fire arm and atium and suddenly you can swap that to 9/10 for the mistborn as they would know where there eyeslit was going to be all the time.

But in this arena, any arena without firearms and atium I think the living shards with connection to the spirit realm win the vast majority of the time.

Edited December 22, 2025 by DoctaDajman

bmcclure7 · December 22, 2025

14 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

There is a WoB that says you cant summon a blade while a leecher is touching you. That probably works with armor too.

However copper doesnt impact other people outside of it. Even at its best use it protects only the user from specific invested attacks. It may stop people from hearing pulses but I dont think it is going to stop shard summoning at all as the only thing I have seen on that was in regards to Chromium use not copper.

I believe coppercloud could make spren act strange to an extent but once the spren are present enough to be forming shards I dont think it would have much effect. I would place the burden of proof for it happening on the other side for that though.

Edit:

This does not even say that the shardbearer would desummon the shard if a leecher grabed them. Investiture resists investiture I dont even think a leecher could stop the unoathed from swapping weapon forms so long as the shardplate was between the leecher and the unoathed.

Reveal hidden contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Leecher was holding a Shardbearer and burning [chromium], would the Shardbearer be able to summon their Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

If you were a Leecher, could you destroy a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to RAFO that for now, let's just say that it would be incredibly difficult if it were possible, and I'm not going to even say if it is. But that kind of power...

Questioner

Let's just say they were burning duralumin as well.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that the Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer, but... This type of thing is not unheard of in the Cosmere. The larkin, the Leechers, and Nightblood all have a similar sort of thing going on. Destroying a Shardblade would be really hard. And Investiture resists other forms of Investiture, so.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5023

I imagine the plate would be able to tamponade fairly well small cuts. Even if you lost a leg or an arm I think the armor would be able compensate. Not necessarily healing you but compression and prosthetic all in one.

I just dont know that a mistborn is getting through the plate at all. Duralumin steel is your only bet and long term I think it opens the mistborn up to much to use it. Especially if the unoathed can swap shardblade into a shield... or even use the flat of the blade to block it.

I am super curious to know if we have seen a shardblade, dead or alive, die away or disappear following any sort of attack, especially kinetic.

Its really just that these shards are alive and able to self regenerate... the mistborn is cooked 9/10 times. The lucky eyeslit shot is its only real chance.

This is another part of why they lose 9/10. This arena is absolutely set in the unoathed's favor. I dont think they need it because I think even in a city block the mistborn will lose due to running out of resources.

Once upon a time the argument was that you crack the plate and then hide until it leaks all of the stormlight. Or you crack it and leech it quickly. But it isnt happening against living plate connected directly to the Spiritual Realm. The mistborn has to break and shatter enough of the plate in a single attack to cripple it. I dont see it happening even if a building fell on top of the unoathed. Eventually the mistborn in an arena will run out of metals. Then they are a sitting duck. The best they can do is hide.

Put this in another scenario and it could be different. It is odd to limit a mistborn to 16 metals, some of which were not available until guns were, but no access to atium or guns.

Give the mistborn a fire arm and atium and suddenly you can swap that to 9/10 for the mistborn as they would know where there eyeslit was going to be all the time.

But in this arena, any arena without firearms and atium I think the living shards with connection to the spirit realm win the vast majority of the time.

Let me send you the link to the discussion one sec

The basic argument, we know that a copper cloud would have an effect on spren so if it’s strong enough to have an effect on spren then it is strong enough to have an effect on shard blade

Immortal Platypus · December 22, 2025

18 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. keyword there is theoretically possible.

2. I was just in another discussion where it was pointed out a copper cloud should block a shard blade/plate from being summoned according to wobs so this fight actually might be over or actually begun in the right circumstances.

3. Why would an arena not have metal?

4. Sure it’s not more beneficial, but it’s still beneficial. My decapitation is more beneficial to my opponent than a my cut. But 1000 cuts will still kill me just to same.

1. no, the keyword there is possible. That means it could happen, so at some point the mistborn is going to get a big surprise when their push-line just disappears. I also wonder what effects that would have on the mistborn/coin/other anchor because if the steel-lines are manifest on the SR, then killing that manifestation would likely have some effect. My guess is it would be primarily to the anchor and not the Mistborn, but who knows?

2. for that to work, you'd have to keep a coppercloud up around the entire fight, including at the very beginning. From the OP, it seemed to me that both appear, ready to go. For example, the Unoathed has their armor on and Blade out, while the Mistborn has already consumed their metals and neither are surprised at the other one. It's unfair to say that the Mistborn would be ready with their metals while saying the Unoathed wouldn't be ready with their toolkit. In addition, it seemed to me that the general consensus there is that it wouldn't stop shards from manifesting, especially not living ones.

3. it might have some, but trace metals are hard to push on and get any sort of powerful thrust from

4. The armor likely helps with minor (or even major) wounds, and before you get to that point you have to crack and shatter the plate, and good luck with that without using duralumin (which makes you much more vulnerable).

4 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I am super curious to know if we have seen a shardblade, dead or alive, die away or disappear following any sort of attack, especially kinetic.

the closest we've seen is Nightblood chipping an honorblade, but if the Mistborn could push a coin against the shardblade hard enough they might be able to disarm the Unoathed temporarily.

Quote

Give the mistborn a fire arm and atium and suddenly you can swap that to 9/10 for the mistborn as they would know where there eyeslit was going to be all the time.

I think the dimensions of one of the bullets might even be too big to fit through the eye slit, depending on how big it is and how big the bullets are. Eye slits are depicted as very narrow, and we are talking about relatively primitive guns.

Also, it is confirmed that living/Unoathed Plate doesn't need the eye slit. from Adolin POV WAT page 1230

Quote

With the whole helm transparent, he didn't need an eyeslit.

DoctaDajman · December 22, 2025

3 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

The closest we've seen is Nightblood chipping an honorblade, but if the Mistborn could push a coin against the shardblade hard enough they might be able to disarm the Unoathed temporarily.

I think the dimensions of one of the bullets might even be too big to fit through the eye slit, depending on how big it is and how big the bullets are. Eye slits are depicted as very narrow, and we are talking about relatively primitive guns.

Also, it is confirmed that living/Unoathed Plate doesn't need the eye slit. from Adolin POV WAT page 1230

Yeah they may lose a sword from just the torque on the wrist, even with plate, following the flat of a blade catching a duralumin push. The shield would likely not as they are designed to be held onto and the mechanics would be different in handheld.

A primitive gun, even with a larger round would likely be more effective against the eyeslit as they shot softer lead. The larger bullet covers more surface area as it hits and what is hitting the eyeslit would likely shear away and puncture the eyes and face behind it.

Good point on sealing the helm. Translucent armor makes this an even stranger fight for the mistborn because it would be even stranger to see someone not wearing visible armor absorbing shots and disrupting steel lines.

Immortal Platypus · December 23, 2025

20 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

A primitive gun, even with a larger round would likely be more effective against the eyeslit as they shot softer lead. The larger bullet covers more surface area as it hits and what is hitting the eyeslit would likely shear away and puncture the eyes and face behind it.

an interesting idea, you might be right. Fortunately, there's no need for the eyeslit so this wouldn't come into play

Quote

Good point on sealing the helm. Translucent armor makes this an even stranger fight for the mistborn because it would be even stranger to see someone not wearing visible armor absorbing shots and disrupting steel lines.

minor correction: what we see in the book is transparency exclusively from the inside, but it's quite possible that they could make the Plate translucent from the outside too.

DoctaDajman · December 23, 2025

11 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

an interesting idea, you might be right. Fortunately, there's no need for the eyeslit so this wouldn't come into play

minor correction: what we see in the book is transparency exclusively from the inside, but it's quite possible that they could make the Plate translucent from the outside too.

Could they make small, tiny pores? Like my shoes that allow my feet to breathe?

Sealing the suit seems legit but a person shouldnt be forced to hold their breath the whole time they are fighting.

I imagine shardplate does breathe in some way... even with the power armor esq strength enhancements you still are exerting yourself to an extent and would need to breathe. I hate rebreathing hot breath even under the blankets. I have to assume there is ventilation of sorts in there as well.

Frustration · December 23, 2025

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. keyword there is theoretically possible.

We see Nightblood cut Ishar's Connection lines in RoW, this fits in nicely with what we know.

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. I was just in another discussion where it was pointed out a copper cloud should block a shard blade/plate from being summoned according to wobs so this fight actually might be over or actually begun in the right circumstances.

I pointed out there why it would not work, and this would require the mistborn to drink metals, close the distance and burn before the Unoathed summoned.

Given that they can summon instantly there's no reason for this to come into play.

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. Why would an arena not have metal?

Why would it?

The entire point is that it's a "fair ground" so to speak, neither side impeded or aided by the terrain.

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. Sure it’s not more beneficial, but it’s still beneficial. My decapitation is more beneficial to my opponent than a my cut. But 1000 cuts will still kill me just to same.

Your initial post was that the Mistborn could have them move armor strategically. Considering breaking armor requires at least 2 duralumin shots, so 2/3 of the Mistborn's steel is used by the time that happens.

43 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Could they make small, tiny pores? Like my shoes that allow my feet to breathe?

Sealing the suit seems legit but a person shouldnt be forced to hold their breath the whole time they are fighting.

I imagine shardplate does breathe in some way... even with the power armor esq strength enhancements you still are exerting yourself to an extent and would need to breathe. I hate rebreathing hot breath even under the blankets. I have to assume there is ventilation of sorts in there as well.

Jasnah says that plate ventilates so it probably would work just fine.

Immortal Platypus · December 23, 2025

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

Could they make small, tiny pores? Like my shoes that allow my feet to breathe?

Sealing the suit seems legit but a person shouldnt be forced to hold their breath the whole time they are fighting.

I imagine shardplate does breathe in some way... even with the power armor esq strength enhancements you still are exerting yourself to an extent and would need to breathe. I hate rebreathing hot breath even under the blankets. I have to assume there is ventilation of sorts in there as well.

yes, another slightly earlier Adolin quote says so. WAT 1230

Quote

... air began to flow up through his armor, refreshing him.

Nitpicking · December 23, 2025

It's odd to say the conditions are meant to be fair, then give the Unoathed hundreds of pounds of god metals (shardblades and Plate are made of god metals) and the mistborn none.

Frustration · December 23, 2025

14 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

It's odd to say the conditions are meant to be fair, then give the Unoathed hundreds of pounds of god metals (shardblades and Plate are made of god metals) and the mistborn none.

...

That's part of being an unoathed.

If they didn't have the Shards they're just a human.

DoctaDajman · December 23, 2025

7 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

It's odd to say the conditions are meant to be fair, then give the Unoathed hundreds of pounds of god metals (shardblades and Plate are made of god metals) and the mistborn none.

One could say that it isnt fair to put a person born magical against a person who only has magical armor and sword.

The systems are meant to be different. If atium were allowed there would likely be a lot different outcomes. Atium is gone though.

I dont think being in a city block with thousands of anchors would make a difference. It would just lead to the combatants having a small skirmish and then the mistborn realizing they need to hide and try to assassinate the unoathed when their guard is down.

And that is how Brandon has talked about Kel vs Kal matchups... from the point of view that a mistborn is not an overt soldier or duelist on the same level as a shardbearer or radiant. The books were written to reflect this. Roshar is high fantasy armies clashing from the start. Every bit of magic is meant for battle field control.

Mistborn just arent. Mistborn was meant to be Oceans 11 meets magic not Braveheart or Troy. They have 18 magic powers we know of right now and only 4 of those are outright meant for offensive fighting prowess... pewter, steel, iron, and atium. The books highlight all of the metals to an extent but they are used to help the mistborn in every avenue of life.

Unoathed have magical armor and swords. 1 purpose. Killing hordes on the battlefield. Not born with magic to help them in life.

Mistborn are beneficiary to being a demigod on the battlefields of medieval times surrounded by armor on a battlefield, and technology is already out pacing them. Dont be mad that a magical suit of armor and blade outclass them in an arena when they already are susceptible to aluminum bullets at home.

They just arent the same. What tastes more like an apple, an orange or an apple? Right?

The mistborn doesnt win the battle in the arena against a prepared Unoathed. They win by soothing their way into the courts and then steelpushing and Ironpulling their way to the unoathed bedroom and night and leveraging pewter to blitz the unoathed in their sleep before they can react.

It is what the systems are created for.

This is why any comparison between the planets themselves have to consider modern conventional weapons against magical suits of armor as well. If shardplate gets crippled against 5.56 rounds and the Scadrians dont have to bust out 50cal machine guns to deal with it... then the complaint can be the other way and Roshar is completely outclassed.

As it is the systems arent meant to be balanced and the fight is set in an arena that forces the 2 to actually fight. Why? Because they mistborn would choose to not fight and run instead once they realized their steelpushes didnt hurt the shardbearer. The mistborn is in a great position to get in and get out. But why would they choose to get back in once they saw their main attack was useless? And if the mistborn ever chose to go in for a melee attack they would likely learn the hardway what the shardblade does.

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

...

That's part of being an unoathed.

If they didn't have the Shards they're just a human.

Bingo. Honestly. The Unoathed are what I needed to get stoked about Roshar again. A part of the system that isnt suffering from infinite powercreep.

Immortal Platypus · December 23, 2025

3 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Bingo. Honestly. The Unoathed are what I needed to get stoked about Roshar again. A part of the system that isnt suffering from infinite powercreep.

slightly more powercrept than Shardbearers, significantly less than radiants

DoctaDajman · December 23, 2025

4 hours ago, Immortal Platypus said:

slightly more powercrept than Shardbearers, significantly less than radiants

Exactly. Here is the trick. I have often believed that a mistborn could beat 90% of 2nd ideal radiants, touch them, leech them, beat them to death. But the blade of the 3rd ideal swings it into the radiants favor 90% because the mistborn can no longer safely touch the radiant to leech and they will infinitely heal. Adding plate from the 4th ideal I think takes them to a place where even a fullborn would struggle.

While a shardbearer loses to the mistborn because they have no healing and no surges and the plate will leak after long enough. The first duralumin steel push gets the plate leaking and then stay in the air until the plate locks up.

But the Unoathed are so interesting. They have no healing for themselves but their shards are all living and plugged directly into the recharging station that is the Spiritual realm. So if the mistborn could get through it they would probably win because there is no healing for the Unoathed. But with their armor having continuous auto healing that is infinite, although probably not enough to maintain through all hits in a short timeframe, I dont see a single round of duralumin pushed steel doing the job.

And as I have said, if they turned blade into a tower shield, I literally dont see a way for the mistborn to even crack the plate. I dont think a duralumin steel assisted cannonball would be enough to break a shardshield. I think it is going to have to come down to some kind of anti-investiture.

Myst · December 23, 2025

11 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Exactly. Here is the trick. I have often believed that a mistborn could beat 90% of 2nd ideal radiants, touch them, leech them, beat them to death. But the blade of the 3rd ideal swings it into the radiants favor 90% because the mistborn can no longer safely touch the radiant to leech and they will infinitely heal. Adding plate from the 4th ideal I think takes them to a place where even a fullborn would struggle.

While a shardbearer loses to the mistborn because they have no healing and no surges and the plate will leak after long enough. The first duralumin steel push gets the plate leaking and then stay in the air until the plate locks up.

But the Unoathed are so interesting. They have no healing for themselves but their shards are all living and plugged directly into the recharging station that is the Spiritual realm. So if the mistborn could get through it they would probably win because there is no healing for the Unoathed. But with their armor having continuous auto healing that is infinite, although probably not enough to maintain through all hits in a short timeframe, I dont see a single round of duralumin pushed steel doing the job.

And as I have said, if they turned blade into a tower shield, I literally dont see a way for the mistborn to even crack the plate. I dont think a duralumin steel assisted cannonball would be enough to break a shardshield. I think it is going to have to come down to some kind of anti-investiture.

Well yeah, but unoathed need to breath, meaning they can’t fully close up the helmet like radiants can. And if there’s an opening, there will be someway to get a coin or other metal object to go flying through it at high speeds.

In the situation where the unmatched uses a shield to cover up the rest of the helmet while still letting air through, there’s still a way to get hit, though it would require precision timing and burning, or just luck.

Most likely a mistborn would have to just get lucky in the ricochet of the coins. It kinda comes down to whether the Mistborn gets lucky before the unoathed kills them. A fullborn would easily win this though, as they just compound cadmium into an ungodly amount of luck and close their eyes and shoot a coin.

Unoathed vs. Mistborn

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