An ethical way to distribute magic in society

[bmcclure7]

Been thinking about magic and how it’s distributed in the Cosme I’ve been thinking about three basic systems that I seem to see. 
 

1. Magical aristocratiam. Magic is conserved to a few chosen individuals a good example this would be Stormlight or Mistborn era one.
 

2. Magical capitalism. Magic is distributed and allowed to flow freely across a society, this leads to most people not having much or any magic while the rich and powerful monopolize. Hallandren is of course, an excellent example of that.

 

3. Magical socialism. A good example of this would be idres magic is distributed, but not allowed to flow freely. Everyone has a small amount of magic they cannot sell or give it away. While perhaps more fair system, this means that society won’t receive any of the benefits of having high-level invested people.

 

 

given that there are pros and cons each system, which system do you think is preferred?

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

given that there are pros and cons each system, which system do you think is preferred?

It really depends on the specifics of each way it's set up, I think.

Aristocratism is actually pretty good the way the Radiants have it set up, albeit not infallible. They have great power, yes, but it comes with an inherit responsibility baked into the system via oaths. These oaths are generally pretty good, what with protecting the innocent (Windrunners), looking out of the downtrodden and forgotten (Edgedancers), preventing those in power from becoming corrupted (Skybreakers), and being reliable supporters (Stonewards).

There are definitely Radiants and their Spren that are exceptions, like Nale's Skybreakers and many modern Dustbringers, but overall I think this is pretty good for the wellbeing of all.

 

A capitalistic approach has perks too. Being able to buy Breath or Unsealed Metalminds means that anyone has the potential to expand their abilities and effectiveness, and it opens a greater field of agency since anyone can work towards obtaining it, I believe.

I feel like this is a best-case scenario though, and is not very realistic. Most likely only the rich, lucky, and/or morally ambiguous will get access to the magic, at least early on. If production of Invested Arts becomes cheaper to make, the general population could begin to directly benefit from holding their own Metalminds like a smartphone or an artificial Breath. Even then, it's probably not entirely "fair", since the highest quality of Invested products will always flow in one direction with only the overflow seeping back towards the poorer section of people (ahem, cyberpunk Scadrial, I'm assuming).

Still, having the freedom to work towards betterment of one's self and one's power is inherently inspiring, in my opinion, even if kinda screwed up in certain ways.

 

Socialism. . . yeah, I'm not familiar enough with real world economics to say whether it would slow down advancements for Invested tech when compared to a capitalistic or aristocratic approach.

But at least within the context of Nalthis, yeah, it's safe but lacks real progress. Nobody is going to discover key Realmatics without creating a stockpile of Breath, at least on Nalthis.

[therunner he/him]

One correction

13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Magical aristocratiam. Magic is conserved to a few chosen individuals a good example this would be Stormlight or Mistborn era one.

Stormlight and Mistborn Era 1 systems are very different, and grouping them together as 'aristocracy' is very flawed in my opinion. 

Mistborn in either Era, the powers are heraditary, and some people are simply born 'better'. 

But Stormlight is instead more meritocratic (with elements of nepotism, due to Connection). You have to earn the powers, and can lose them.


I would say the Stormlight system is among the better ones, as 

• Power can be lost, helping to prevent concentration of power
• Power cannot be concentrated within any single group of society (as anyone can become Knight Radiant)
   

Basically, Stormlight-style system gives equal opportunity, and has certain checks in-built (the Oaths), even if those are not ideal.

Edited November 25, 2025 by therunner

[Xanpheon]

In a peculiar way, Radiant Oaths are closer to meritocracy (but a very weird, stormed up type of meritocracy). 

Spren are attracted to those who have the potential to join a Radiant Order, and after a short while bond to them and help them progress. Squires are more likely (in some regards) to become Radiants, but even then it isn't guaranteed. But once you've been chosen, it's down to you. Your oaths bind you to acting in a way that is generally in the best interests of society (though Nale's Skybreakers and the Ashspren hating modern humanity and thus generally choosing Dustbringers who will act against the greater good show that that isn't guaranteed), and in order to gain more power you need to show greater adherence to your ideals and acknowledge your own growth of character.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Xanpheon said:

In a peculiar way, Radiant Oaths are closer to meritocracy (but a very weird, stormed up type of meritocracy). 

Spren are attracted to those who have the potential to join a Radiant Order, and after a short while bond to them and help them progress. Squires are more likely (in some regards) to become Radiants, but even then it isn't guaranteed. But once you've been chosen, it's down to you. Your oaths bind you to acting in a way that is generally in the best interests of society (though Nale's Skybreakers and the Ashspren hating modern humanity and thus generally choosing Dustbringers who will act against the greater good show that that isn't guaranteed), and in order to gain more power you need to show greater adherence to your ideals and acknowledge your own growth of character.

 

7 hours ago, therunner said:

One correction

Stormlight and Mistborn Era 1 systems are very different, and grouping them together as 'aristocracy' is very flawed in my opinion. 

Mistborn in either Era, the powers are heraditary, and some people are simply born 'better'. 

But Stormlight is instead more meritocratic (with elements of nepotism, due to Connection). You have to earn the powers, and can lose them.


I would say the Stormlight system is among the better ones, as 

• Power can be lost, helping to prevent concentration of power
• Power cannot be concentrated within any single group of society (as anyone can become Knight Radiant)
   

Basically, Stormlight-style system gives equal opportunity, and has certain checks in-built (the Oaths), even if those are not ideal.

I hear what you’re saying but fundamentally disagree the radiant orders are not a meritocracy. A meritocracy is ruled by people with the proper skills or training neither of which is technically necessary to be at knight radiant. 
 

Instead the knight’s radiance abilities and hierarchy is based around ideals and living up to those ideals. Simply put it is a true aristocracy (which literally means rule of the best) 

 

I grouped them together because the knights are a perfect example of what an aristocracy should be, whereas the nobility is an example of what an aristocracy usually is. Either way, though they both would fall under description of aristocracy.

 

 

[Returned he/him]

I'm not 100% sold on the groupings either (particularly the Socialism one, which doesn't match the meaning of the word), though that doesn't matter to the ideas presented in the OP.

I don't think we can talk about the ethics of distributing magical ability without talking about what values we want to support and/or the effects we want from the distribution, which makes the whole discussion much harder. Without those things I don't think that we can evaluate the systems against each other at all. I have zero faith that any of the suggested systems would maintain itself as intended (aristocracy has never represented the "best" of people; "merit" is something that can often be bought, gifted, or denied; Capitalism has to deal with market failures and trends towards consolidation; Socialism requires people to consistently act in ways that people seem not to) and so (to my mind) installing any of them also requires some secret, extra thing to enforce them.

I don't think that any of the systems are particularly good or bad. Each requires the participation of all (or at least most) of the people in the system, and that participation could take any system in a "good" or "bad" direction very easily. I don't want to live in a system where all magic is controlled by people like Torol Sadeas, but such a system could arise in any of the groupings suggested. It's also hard to think through how incentives would play out in each case since there are so many factors within each method of organization. Would someone with lots of wealth and the ability to buy magic power do much to advance knowledge, or just indulge themselves? Would someone with lots of wealth and little ability to buy magic power work to get as much out of the magic as possible, or would they just not bother? What if someone pushed the bounds of magical knowledge, but only in the direction of torturing and immiserating people?

What makes the magic so interesting is its flexibility and potential to do almost anything (or at least anything we haven't been told it specifically cannot do) while also being not generally available. That potential makes it fundamentally transgressive: it always grants individuals some ability to do what is impossible for most, and that means that people with lots of magic are just less constrain-able than others. They can be heroes or monsters and are probably going to be hard to compel to do something or refrain from doing something. That strikes me as pretty dangerous. So I would prefer the most distributed and limited option, the third one you listed. People can still band together to accomplish things but there will be fewer unstoppable vigilantes running around doing whatever they want to the rest.

Edited November 25, 2025 by Returned

[Qianweilian He/him]

I think the best system is one where I control all the magic.

 

I believe I have a better classification for this with two scales - prevalence and method of obtaining. Prevalence runs from consolidated to widespread and method runs from aristocratic to meritocratic.

- Consolidated

Only a few individuals control this power, basically only the very top of the upper class. If not part of the upper class, still extremely rare.

- Concentrated

Still rare, usually (but not always) the hallmarks and criterion for the upper class. Something most people won't be able to dream of.

- Widespread

Many people don't have the power in this situation. But either a majority or plurality of society do. You wouldn't be surprised to see someone with it walking down the street.

And now, the method of obtainment scale:

- Aristocratic

Either born with it, or granted through a method irrelated to talent or wealth.

- Plutocratic

Primarily obtained through money, connections, strings, or other channels that aren't meritocratic. 

- Meritocratic 

Obtained through merit or worth, whether moral integrity, intelligence, charisma, talent, or some other way

Examples of each category:

Consolidated - Aristocratic

Feruchemy, Divine Breath, Dead Shards, kandra, Elantrian-ness, etc.

Consolidated - Plutocratic 

Higher heightenings 

Consolidated - Meritocratic

Hemalurgy, Radiant Oaths

Concentrated - Aristocratic 

Allomancy

Concentrated - Plutocratic

Lower heightenings and awakening, Soulcasters (and fabrials in general)

Concentrated - Meritocratic 

Soul stamping

Widespread - Aristocratic 

Heaving a breath in general

Widespread - Plutocratic

Medallions, first heightening

Widespread - Meritocratic

As far as I know, this doesn't really exist in the cosmere (yet).

[therunner he/him]

21 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I hear what you’re saying but fundamentally disagree the radiant orders are not a meritocracy. A meritocracy is ruled by people with the proper skills or training neither of which is technically necessary to be at knight radiant.

No, meritocracy means that those of merit rule, on what basis you determine merit (i.e. skill, achievement etc.) is immaterial. 

Knight Radiants are chosen by merit, of how well they can live up to the Ideals of their order, hence they are meritocracy. This does not necessarily mean they would be good rulers (see e.g. Hoid).


What you are describing is technocracy, where those of proven skill (relevant to task at hand) rule, though admittedly there is overlap of those two.

Quote

Instead the knight’s radiance abilities and hierarchy is based around ideals and living up to those ideals. Simply put it is a true aristocracy (which literally means rule of the best) 

Literal meaning of aristocracy is rule by best, however: 

1. Not a single country in the history that is aristocracy would fit that literal definition
2. Neither would Knight Radiants, because their certain members would likely not fit (numerous Skybreakers for example).

Quote

I grouped them together because the knights are a perfect example of what an aristocracy should be, whereas the nobility is an example of what an aristocracy usually is. Either way, though they both would fall under description of aristocracy.

They fit only if you use two wildly different meaning for each: 

• Knight Radiant might fit if you choose literal meaning of aristocracy, but that would exclude heraditary nobility (e.g. Mistborn)
• Mistborn and heraditary nobility are included if you use the word aristocracy in its usual sense, but it then excludes Knight Radiant.

And that is why I don't think grouping them together makes sense. 


Edit:
@Qianweilian I like the two dimensional scale!

Quote

Widespread - Meritocratic

As far as I know, this doesn't really exist in the cosmere (yet).

If you would consider what Singers do as magic, then I would say this fit. 

It is widespread (every Singer participates), and meritocratic (what Form you get depends entirely upon you and your state).

But as it is a part of their 'biology', it might not make sense to consider it as magic, for the purpose of this discussion.

Edited November 26, 2025 by therunner

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

No, meritocracy means that those of merit rule, on what basis you determine merit (i.e. skill, achievement etc.) is immaterial. 

Knight Radiants are chosen by merit, of how well they can live up to the Ideals of their order, hence they are meritocracy. This does not necessarily mean they would be good rulers (see e.g. Hoid).


What you are describing is technocracy, where those of proven skill (relevant to task at hand) rule, though admittedly there is overlap of those two.

Literal meaning of aristocracy is rule by best, however: 

1. Not a single country in the history that is aristocracy would fit that literal definition
2. Neither would Knight Radiants, because their certain members would likely not fit (numerous Skybreakers for example).

They fit only if you use two wildly different meaning for each: 

• Knight Radiant might fit if you choose literal meaning of aristocracy, but that would exclude heraditary nobility (e.g. Mistborn)
• Mistborn and heraditary nobility are included if you use the word aristocracy in its usual sense, but it then excludes Knight Radiant.

And that is why I don't think grouping them together makes sense. 


Edit:
@Qianweilian I like the two dimensional scale!

If you would consider what Singers do as magic, then I would say this fit. 

It is widespread (every Singer participates), and meritocratic (what Form you get depends entirely upon you and your state).

But as it is a part of their 'biology', it might not make sense to consider it as magic, for the purpose of this discussion.

 

1. For clarification I’m not talking about actually running the country. I’m more talking about access to high-level magical abilities (which may or may not translate into political rule as well, but that’s a different kind of discussion). 

2. What do you have against sky breakers?

3. Yes, I’m well aware that aristocracy is usually become simply oligarchy. That’s why I included examples of both the nobility and the knight’s radiance

 

4. Yes I would consider the singers forms to be what I am calling for now magical socialism. (yes I’m aware that this is not a perfect term, but I don’t have another one.) it definitely has its benefits as it spreads and magic out rather evenly the downside is from what we see it appears this system of distributing power is the weakest. Excluding forms of power that come from odium most singers form don’t offer that much of a boost compared to. Let’s say alomancer and nowhere near the type of boost you’d get from a knight radiant. So it seems like these systems of investor distribution does not produce any strong investigator users

On 11/25/2025 at 11:33 AM, Returned said:

I'm not 100% sold on the groupings either (particularly the Socialism one, which doesn't match the meaning of the word), though that doesn't matter to the ideas presented in the OP.

I don't think we can talk about the ethics of distributing magical ability without talking about what values we want to support and/or the effects we want from the distribution, which makes the whole discussion much harder. Without those things I don't think that we can evaluate the systems against each other at all. I have zero faith that any of the suggested systems would maintain itself as intended (aristocracy has never represented the "best" of people; "merit" is something that can often be bought, gifted, or denied; Capitalism has to deal with market failures and trends towards consolidation; Socialism requires people to consistently act in ways that people seem not to) and so (to my mind) installing any of them also requires some secret, extra thing to enforce them.

I don't think that any of the systems are particularly good or bad. Each requires the participation of all (or at least most) of the people in the system, and that participation could take any system in a "good" or "bad" direction very easily. I don't want to live in a system where all magic is controlled by people like Torol Sadeas, but such a system could arise in any of the groupings suggested. It's also hard to think through how incentives would play out in each case since there are so many factors within each method of organization. Would someone with lots of wealth and the ability to buy magic power do much to advance knowledge, or just indulge themselves? Would someone with lots of wealth and little ability to buy magic power work to get as much out of the magic as possible, or would they just not bother? What if someone pushed the bounds of magical knowledge, but only in the direction of torturing and immiserating people?

What makes the magic so interesting is its flexibility and potential to do almost anything (or at least anything we haven't been told it specifically cannot do) while also being not generally available. That potential makes it fundamentally transgressive: it always grants individuals some ability to do what is impossible for most, and that means that people with lots of magic are just less constrain-able than others. They can be heroes or monsters and are probably going to be hard to compel to do something or refrain from doing something. That strikes me as pretty dangerous. So I would prefer the most distributed and limited option, the third one you listed. People can still band together to accomplish things but there will be fewer unstoppable vigilantes running around doing whatever they want to the rest.

Socialism is probably not the word for it but I can’t think of another one. It’s simply system that distribute magic relatively evenly across the entire society

19 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I think the best system is one where I control all the magic.

 

I believe I have a better classification for this with two scales - prevalence and method of obtaining. Prevalence runs from consolidated to widespread and method runs from aristocratic to meritocratic.

- Consolidated

Only a few individuals control this power, basically only the very top of the upper class. If not part of the upper class, still extremely rare.

- Concentrated

Still rare, usually (but not always) the hallmarks and criterion for the upper class. Something most people won't be able to dream of.

- Widespread

Many people don't have the power in this situation. But either a majority or plurality of society do. You wouldn't be surprised to see someone with it walking down the street.

And now, the method of obtainment scale:

- Aristocratic

Either born with it, or granted through a method irrelated to talent or wealth.

- Plutocratic

Primarily obtained through money, connections, strings, or other channels that aren't meritocratic. 

- Meritocratic 

Obtained through merit or worth, whether moral integrity, intelligence, charisma, talent, or some other way

Examples of each category:

Consolidated - Aristocratic

Feruchemy, Divine Breath, Dead Shards, kandra, Elantrian-ness, etc.

Consolidated - Plutocratic 

Higher heightenings 

Consolidated - Meritocratic

Hemalurgy, Radiant Oaths

Concentrated - Aristocratic 

Allomancy

Concentrated - Plutocratic

Lower heightenings and awakening, Soulcasters (and fabrials in general)

Concentrated - Meritocratic 

Soul stamping

Widespread - Aristocratic 

Heaving a breath in general

Widespread - Plutocratic

Medallions, first heightening

Widespread - Meritocratic

As far as I know, this doesn't really exist in the cosmere (yet).

For clarification, I wasn’t really talking about how power is obtained as that can be different for every shard. Instead, I was interested in discussing about how power is distributed among a society. 

[Qianweilian He/him]

20 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Socialism is probably not the word for it but I can’t think of another one. It’s simply system that distribute magic relatively evenly across the entire society

Yeah I agree, I think the singer forms could fall under widespread - meritocratic in the way they are spread out. I think socialism as a term is misleading, as it implies political and economic systems that don't really exist in the Cosmere (yet). Magical socialism would probably be something closer to if the Hallandren God Kings seized control of the market and managed the breath trade - a plutocratic system turned either meritocratic (in its best form) or aristocratic (in its worst form).

Edited November 26, 2025 by Qianweilian
it's its it is autocorrect troubles

[Returned he/him]

32 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Socialism is probably not the word for it but I can’t think of another one. It’s simply system that distribute magic relatively evenly across the entire society

Socialism is 100% not the word for it, though I can appreciate how it might seem to be the best fit (especially if you're from in the United States, where the word and concept have been seriously debased for a century). I'll suggest an alternative, "magic egalitarianism", if you like. The point of that arrangement, if I understand you correctly, is that all people get an equal amount of magical capacity and cannot cause that distribution to change.

But back to the question in the OP, what criteria do you (OP, but also anyone else) think matter the most and how do those point you to one of these organizational systems as the best one?

[therunner he/him]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. For clarification I’m not talking about actually running the country. I’m more talking about access to high-level magical abilities (which may or may not translate into political rule as well, but that’s a different kind of discussion). 

Well, yes, but access to high-level magic abilities is wildly different in Knight Radiants and Mistborn, so grouping them together is confusing.

In Allomancy you are born with it, and nothing you can do will change that.
Knights Radiant have to earn their power, and can lose it.
 

That is fundamentally very different way of obtaining access to magic.

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. What do you have against sky breakers?

Under Nale they effectively became a cult-like fascist organization serving a single person, Nale.

True Skybreakers I would not have a problem with, mostly I think

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. Yes I would consider the singers forms to be what I am calling for now magical socialism. (yes I’m aware that this is not a perfect term, but I don’t have another one.) it definitely has its benefits as it spreads and magic out rather evenly the downside is from what we see it appears this system of distributing power is the weakest. Excluding forms of power that come from odium most singers form don’t offer that much of a boost compared to. Let’s say alomancer and nowhere near the type of boost you’d get from a knight radiant. So it seems like these systems of investor distribution does not produce any strong investigator users

"From each according to his ability, To each according to his need" does fit with Singer forms somewhat  

I would disagree that forms are weak compared to allomancers, forms in general are comparable to Mistings, albeit a bit weaker. E.g. Warform are ~2x the strength of adult human, which is comparable to Pewterarm. 
But yes, they don't reach to Mistborn, or Knight Radiants.
 

[Duxredux he/him]

Yeah... could luck getting consensus on "fair", "equitable", or "ethical" on this forum.

No one's gonna mention the first Cosmere magic distribution system, lottery via Shaod? Part of what made Elantris interesting is that magic trivialized basic needs like food, water, and material possessions. They addressed cost of commuting for intracity travel for crying out loud. If a regular person broke their arm, they could walk in and ask an Elantrian draw for a few seconds to a minute, bam, arm healed. I know someone is gonna say that you have to be born Arelene and live close geographically, but let's just keep it to distribution for their society rather than globalization. I don't think most people, particularly if they were eligible for the lottery, would mind living in Arelon under Raoden's rule after he restored Elantris. Even Dilaf wanted their aid, though granted his wife was wrecked after an unfortuante typo (swipo?).

[Qianweilian He/him]

25 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

No one's gonna mention the first Cosmere magic distribution system, lottery via Shaod?

I mention it as a consolidated - aristocratic system. 

26 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Part of what made Elantris interesting is that magic trivialized basic needs like food, water, and material possessions. They addressed cost of commuting for intracity travel for crying out loud. If a regular person broke their arm, they could walk in and ask an Elantrian draw for a few seconds to a minute, bam, arm healed.

I agree, this does make it interesting and more nuanced than meritocratic=better. Something like Hemalurgy is purely meritocratic, it only requires knowledge, but it absolutely harms society in general.

[Returned he/him]

2 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Something like Hemalurgy is purely meritocratic, it only requires knowledge, but it absolutely harms society in general.

Could you expand on this? Hemalurgy doesn't seem meritocratic at all to me, especially since the majority of hemalurgists seem to have been spiked by someone else (you don't even need the knowledge yourself). It seems to me that this will only accelerate as the Metallic Arts become more commoditized and broadly available.

Quote

Yeah... could luck getting consensus on "fair", "equitable", or "ethical" on this forum.

No one's gonna mention the first Cosmere magic distribution system, lottery via Shaod?

I'll settle for discussion, or even mention, of what people mean when they trot the terms out or how they expect to achieve them. Just saying "I think the most ethical system is X" doesn't provide much to discuss or think about. The interesting parts of ethics discussions are why a person believes one decision to be better than another, and it's good to practice thinking in those dimensions rather than just asserting what "feels right" with little to no reflection.

As for the Shaod, I would think of that as an aristocracy (per the original suggestions in the OP). That it's decided by lottery is an interesting wrinkle but doesn't seem to me to that it would change the system away from aristocratic rule. Once you undergo the Shaod you suddenly have radically more power than others and are immortal (so your social position is permanent). Do you disagree with that analysis, @Qianweilian (sorry, I messed up the quote box), or is the lottery piece the thing that you wanted to emphasize over the rest?

Edited November 27, 2025 by Returned

[Qianweilian He/him]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Could you expand on this? Hemalurgy doesn't seem meritocratic at all to me, especially since the majority of hemalurgists seem to have been spiked by someone else (you don't even need the knowledge yourself).

Sure! I see hemalurgy as mainly meritocratic because it requires knowledge. It doesn't really require resources (other than metal), connection, ancestry, or anything else. If you know how to use it, you can. The "merit" is knowledge of the art.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Do you disagree with that analysis, @Qianweilian (sorry, I messed up the quote box), or is the lottery piece the thing that you wanted to emphasize over the rest?

If you look, I mention the shaod as an aristocratic system, your quote is from @Duxredux, not me.

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

lottery via Shaod?

I remembered a WoB I saw once, the shaod is (most likely) not random. It's based on connection.

Quote

Questioner

And then on Elantris, does the Shaod take one 1/16th of the people? *spoken over*

Brandon Sanderson

Oooo, good question. *brief interruption* It does not.

Questioner

It does not.

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Questioner

What is the method or the process of choosing there?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, that is a RAFO.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5785

Quote

Questioner

Is the Shaod actually random, or is it more of a chosen thing?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10479

Quote

Questioner

The Emperor's Soul was intentionally on Sel or was it just picked up as...

Brandon Sanderson

No, it was intentional, because the magic system... the way I build the magic systems in the Cosmere is very deliberate and certain planets have certain themes for their magic. And Sel's magic systems are all basically computer programming languages and when I was designing that magic system, it had to be on Sel, it couldn't work on any of the other planets for various reason.

Questioner

And another question, is the Shaod random or is there a purpose beyond it?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not completely random. *laughter from audience*

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13071

Edited November 27, 2025 by Qianweilian
WoBs copied weird.

[bmcclure7]

9 hours ago, therunner said:

Well, yes, but access to high-level magic abilities is wildly different in Knight Radiants and Mistborn, so grouping them together is confusing.

In Allomancy you are born with it, and nothing you can do will change that.
Knights Radiant have to earn their power, and can lose it.
 

That is fundamentally very different way of obtaining access to magic.

Under Nale they effectively became a cult-like fascist organization serving a single person, Nale.

True Skybreakers I would not have a problem with, mostly I think

"From each according to his ability, To each according to his need" does fit with Singer forms somewhat  

I would disagree that forms are weak compared to allomancers, forms in general are comparable to Mistings, albeit a bit weaker. E.g. Warform are ~2x the strength of adult human, which is comparable to Pewterarm. 
But yes, they don't reach to Mistborn, or Knight Radiants.
 

 

I’m grouping them together because I’m not interested so much how they access it but how it’s distributed how many people are invested and can one person trade or give investure to Another. 
 

In these regards the two are the same both are essentially a few people who have highly level abilities with little or no ability to sell or give their power to others

4 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Sure! I see hemalurgy as mainly meritocratic because it requires knowledge. It doesn't really require resources (other than metal), connection, ancestry, or anything else. If you know how to use it, you can. The "merit" is knowledge of the art.

If you look, I mention the shaod as an aristocratic system, your quote is from @Duxredux, not me.

I remembered a WoB I saw once, the shaod is (most likely) not random. It's based on connection.

Hemalurgy is an interesting beast. It is ultimately what I’m calling capitalistic magic which in this context means it can be brought and sold or given away. 

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Yeah... could luck getting consensus on "fair", "equitable", or "ethical" on this forum.

No one's gonna mention the first Cosmere magic distribution system, lottery via Shaod? Part of what made Elantris interesting is that magic trivialized basic needs like food, water, and material possessions. They addressed cost of commuting for intracity travel for crying out loud. If a regular person broke their arm, they could walk in and ask an Elantrian draw for a few seconds to a minute, bam, arm healed. I know someone is gonna say that you have to be born Arelene and live close geographically, but let's just keep it to distribution for their society rather than globalization. I don't think most people, particularly if they were eligible for the lottery, would mind living in Arelon under Raoden's rule after he restored Elantris. Even Dilaf wanted their aid, though granted his wife was wrecked after an unfortuante typo (swipo?).

Actually, they’d be able aristocratic because only a handful of people are invested 

[Qianweilian He/him]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I’m grouping them together because I’m not interested so much how they access it but how it’s distributed how many people are invested and can one person trade or give investure to Another. 

But accessing the magic is how they are distributed. Breaths being accessed plutocraticly change what members of society have access.

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Hemalurgy is an interesting beast. It is ultimately what I’m calling capitalistic magic which in this context means it can be brought and sold or given away. 

I would disagree. It can be bought or sold, but it isn't (yet). Perhaps it could be, especially if information was tightly controlled and spikes were sold. But it isn't now; that was my main reasoning in classifying it as meritocratic.

[bmcclure7]

2 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

But accessing the magic is how they are distributed. Breaths being accessed plutocraticly change what members of society have access.

I would disagree. It can be bought or sold, but it isn't (yet). Perhaps it could be, especially if information was tightly controlled and spikes were sold. But it isn't now; that was my main reasoning in classifying it as meritocratic.

Yes, but it could be. It’s inherently a system where power flow freely from one person to another. And there is no laws or system to prevent that. And even if the public book doesn’t know about it. You already see powerful organizations and individuals trying to gather as much of them as possible. 

[therunner he/him]

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I’m grouping them together because I’m not interested so much how they access it but how it’s distributed how many people are invested and can one person trade or give investure to Another. 
 

In these regards the two are the same both are essentially a few people who have highly level abilities with little or no ability to sell or give their power to others

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarification!

In that sense it seems to me that most systems are aristocratic: 

• Allomancy and Feruchemy certainly are, they cannot be given away or sold
  • Medallions might eventually change that to some extent, but it is unknown how their manufacture happens
• Knight Radiant, theoretically Blade and Plate can be lent to others, and possibly you can make people your squires at least in some orders, so elements of what can be given away are there

 

From this perspective Hemalurgy is the most free one, it is defined mostly by knowledge, and so can be traded/given away like any other knowledge can.

[bmcclure7]

On 11/28/2025 at 2:24 AM, therunner said:

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarification!

In that sense it seems to me that most systems are aristocratic: 

• Allomancy and Feruchemy certainly are, they cannot be given away or sold
  • Medallions might eventually change that to some extent, but it is unknown how their manufacture happens
• Knight Radiant, theoretically Blade and Plate can be lent to others, and possibly you can make people your squires at least in some orders, so elements of what can be given away are there

 

From this perspective Hemalurgy is the most free one, it is defined mostly by knowledge, and so can be traded/given away like any other knowledge can.

Breath is similar to Hemalurgy in that it can be easily traded(with the exception of countries that forbid awakening, or the transfer of breath). More so then even Hemalurgy and there are probably more awakener than there are spiked.