The Lift w/Nightblood versus TLR Question

[TacoBellChoutaMeal]

I bet someone has asked this before, but I personally don't know if anyone has. 

With the state of Roshar post-WaT, Lift is one of, if not the most important people on the planet. If Vasher has taken an interest in training her, it's probably safe to assume that she'll be exponentially more powerful as an adult. 

If Lift had a full belly and was able to wield Nightblood (who had access to all of the surges) would she be able to beat Rashek with a full set of metalminds? Would it even be close? I think it could honestly go either way. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

20 minutes ago, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

I bet someone has asked this before, but I personally don't know if anyone has. 

With the state of Roshar post-WaT, Lift is one of, if not the most important people on the planet. If Vasher has taken an interest in training her, it's probably safe to assume that she'll be exponentially more powerful as an adult. 

If Lift had a full belly and was able to wield Nightblood (who had access to all of the surges) would she be able to beat Rashek with a full set of metalminds? Would it even be close? I think it could honestly go either way. 

My opinion is that, if TLR was acting in a realistic manner and Lift was not given narrative invulnerability he would win the majority of the time hands down.

There are certainly ways Lift and Nightblood could win, especially if Lift has plenty of time to train and Nightblood shares the other Surges with her. Nightblood can one-shot if it touches TLR and can grant powerful abilities like Elsecalling and Soulcasting. Lift can heal injures and replenish her Investiture with a relatively cheap resource. 

But I think Rashek's Steelrunning, Steelpushing, precognition, heightened senses, experience, and overt brutality give him a serious leg up in most any lethal situation. 

 

It really matters what both parties do in the specific situation we're deciding to throw them in, but I'd be comfortable handing the win to Rashek. 

[clowncarcrash]

I'd give it to Rashek. I don't think Lift has the combat experience or the ruthlessness, or versatility Rashek has. 

[Qianweilian He/him]

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

But I think Rashek's Steelrunning, Steelpushing, precognition, heightened senses, experience, and overt brutality give him a serious leg up in most any lethal situation.

I concur. I don't have TFE on hand to give quotes, but I recall Rashek saying that he could put down the rebellion himself and WoB confirms he could have conquered Scadrial completely with the sword instead of using diplomacy.

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Brandon Sanderson

The First Noblemen Weren't Rashek's Friends

I'm curious to know if anyone figured out the logical problem with the Terrismen becoming nobility. It's what everyone assumed, and it's been mentioned in the previous books. Everyone knows that the Lord Ruler made his friends into Allomancers.

Only, he didn't. That's simply a fabrication he allowed to continue as rumor, then become fact, so that he could cover up the origins of the kandra. The men who became the first Allomancers were actually foreign kings. Rashek knew that he could conquer the world if he needed to—but he also knew that it would be a lot easier to rule that conquered world if he had allies and kingdoms who joined him out of desire, not out of fear. So, he offered Allomancy to the royal families who would give their allegiance to him. Once he showed off his own power as a Mistborn, he managed to get several important monarchs to throw their weight behind him. They got to be Allomancers.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Feb. 25, 2010)

Sazed and Wax both suggest that Feruchemical power when using compounding is multiplied tenfold. With the metals we know for certain that TLR had access to that means the following atttributes are near-infinite compared to the average person:

• Weight (might be mass)
• Physical Speed
• Sensory Perception
• Physical Strength
• Mental Speed
• Warmth (or cold if you choose to store a large amount)
• Wakefulness
• Identity
• Health (means near instant healing)
• Determination
• Youth

We know that gold can heal from shardblade wounds to the head and restore abilities lost to hemalurgy which, although not relevant in this case, shows how powerful gold healing actually is.

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Questioner

If a Shardblade was put through Wayne's eye, would he able to use his ability to heal the wound?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he should be able to heal that.

Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

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HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 6, 2020)

He is also probably the most powerful Mistborn ever, considering how he can easily pierce copperclouds, push/pull on metal in bodies, and even cause depression-like effects in 10k people at once. He's also a near or full savant in every metal.

A rational TLR would absolutely destory a Herald, let alone Lift. However, TLR isn't completely rational. Not knowing what it is, he'd probably be dumb enough to let himself get stabbed by Nightblood as a show of force, which would probably destroy him. Even if that doesn't occur, when TLR beats Lift, I suspect Nightblood's draw to "evil" people would cause him eventually to stab himself and all his inquisitors. Remember, TLR's willpower and drive to live has been worn down by Ruin for a millennia. So, Lift would probably win, but possibly at the cost of her life.

Edit: Or, if TLR isn't paying attention, he could get ganked by a Lift who could elsecall w/ nightblood.

Edited October 28, 2025 by Qianweilian

[Brgst13]

Don't sell Lift short here.  A lot of the reasoning is based on speed/strength amplification.  This does little good if you are anchored to the planet like Ishar did to the Windrunners.  Bondsmith powers on general seem very powerful.  Ishar tried to take Dalinar's connection to the Stormfather.  Could Lift do something similar with Rashek's metal minds?  In addition she could summon a perpendicularity to provide additional Light (maybe Lifelight).

[Qianweilian He/him]

2 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

This does little good if you are anchored to the planet like Ishar did to the Windrunners.  Bondsmith powers on general seem very powerful.

I agree, but a fullborn could absolutely rush Lift before she had a chance to react, let alone do something like this.

2 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

Could Lift do something similar with Rashek's metal minds?

I don't actually think so, given that anyone can use metalminds as long as they have the "key" identity. Lift might be able to take his connection to Preservation though.

2 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

In addition she could summon a perpendicularity to provide additional Light (maybe Lifelight).

This is pretty much useless because either TLR ganks Lift before she can react, or TLR is stupid and lets Lift use Nightblood/Bondsmith powers because he thinks he's a god.

2 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

A lot of the reasoning is based on speed/strength amplification.

This is the main reason I think Lift would most likely win, not because of her abilities, but the fact that Rashek doesn't care. He'd probably try to teach her a lesson instead of actually using most of his powers.

On 10/28/2025 at 11:21 AM, Qianweilian said:

I suspect Nightblood's draw to "evil" people would cause him eventually to stab himself and all his inquisitors

I actually change my mind. We know that the Nightblood compulsion is like rioting, and as soon as Rashek realizes, he'll probably turn on his superpowered coppercloud.

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Questioner

Can you tell me about the mechanics of Nightblood's revulsion vs. compulsion magic?

Brandon Sanderson

What do you want to know?

Questioner

Is it like Rioting? Like in--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Rioting is a good parallel to that. 

Questioner

Is agency being taken away?

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't say agency is taken away but it depends on how you view Rioting, right? If you are enhancing someone's emotions-- Here is the question for you. If someone is feeling depressed, is their agency being taken away? And this is a question that our society has a really bad answer to, right? So if you are being Rioted, strict-line I would say no, your agency isn't being taken away, but you are certainly under the influence of another force which is taking certain emotions you might have and emphasizing them a great deal.

Questioner

So is it the same kind of push that makes a virtuous person want to vomit?

Brandon Sanderson

Virtuous might be the wrong way to put it. But yes, that sort of thing is related. It's related to Nightblood and it's related to how he was created and all of those sorts of things.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

[Aekiel2]

7 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

Don't sell Lift short here.  A lot of the reasoning is based on speed/strength amplification.  This does little good if you are anchored to the planet like Ishar did to the Windrunners.  Bondsmith powers on general seem very powerful.  Ishar tried to take Dalinar's connection to the Stormfather.  Could Lift do something similar with Rashek's metal minds?  In addition she could summon a perpendicularity to provide additional Light (maybe Lifelight).

I have the pet theory that F-Duralumin can be used to mitigate/negate Bondsmith Connection shenanigans, which may help even the playing field a bit.

[Qianweilian He/him]

1 hour ago, Aekiel2 said:

which may help even the playing field a bit.

Imo, the "playing field" is between TLR's arrogance and pragmatism unless Lift teleports from CR and assassinates him almost immediately (which is both out of character and begins to move away from the presumed premise)

1 hour ago, Aekiel2 said:

I have the pet theory that F-Duralumin can be used to mitigate/negate Bondsmith Connection shenanigans

That's a neat theory. I like it, and it makes sense.

[therunner he/him]

On 10/28/2025 at 5:21 PM, Qianweilian said:

A rational TLR would absolutely destory a Herald, let alone Lift. 

I mean...no

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#1 Taln Fan

Who in the Cosmere could beat Taln in a fight back when he was in his prime?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends what level of abilities he has access to. If you're saying access to full abilities, I don't know of anybody who could beat him in an actual one-on-one.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

Heralds absolutely are on the same level as TLR, if not beyond him.
. I mean, they seem to have semi permanent Atium-like power they can turn on and off seemingly at will (Ishar dodging Windrunners, Nale dodging Kaladin, and even Kaladin back in WoR duel), and we haven't really seen them nowhere near their best.


As to Lift vs TLR. 

Lift already showed herselft capable of beating Full Feruchemist, so that is nothing to sneeze at.
She is also hugely invested, though we don't know the exact details.
Add on Nightblood...

I think she would still lose to TLR, unless she somehow got similar Atium-like perk as Heralds at the very least.

But Lift after training with Zahel for a decade or so? Possibly unlocking other abilities? That might be a different conversation.

[Qianweilian He/him]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Heralds absolutely are on the same level as TLR, if not beyond him.

Sorry, that was a bit of an overexaggeration, saying he would beat a herald. But Taln is very much not the average herald. I do think (rational) TLR would take most of them.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

But Lift after training with Zahel for a decade or so? Possibly unlocking other abilities? That might be a different conversation.

Honestly yeah. I'm mostly talking about current Lift w/ nightblood, because we really have no idea what she could be capable of. Even now, if she used Nightblood to exit the CR right in front of TLR, then she could probably assassinate him with it.

[therunner he/him]

18 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Sorry, that was a bit of an overexaggeration, saying he would beat a herald. But Taln is very much not the average herald. I do think (rational) TLR would take most of them.

Fair enough. 

Though I would still bet on most Heralds, even over rational TLR. They have literally centuries (if not millenia) more experience fighting against Invested foes, and they fought multiple wars where it was bronze-age/iron-age level humans + Heralds vs Singers + Fused + Thunderclasts + Unmade, and they won them all.

TLR never did get challenged to that extent.

Even outside of Taln, they exhibit that atium-like effect, except unlike TLR they don\t need Atium to fuel it. And they also exhibit superspeed, that is of supersonic level. 
They are all on another level compared to basically anyone else in Cosmere, it's just that Taln is on another level even compared to them.
 

18 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Honestly yeah. I'm mostly talking about current Lift w/ nightblood, because we really have no idea what she could be capable of. Even now, if she used Nightblood to exit the CR right in front of TLR, then she could probably assassinate him with it.

Fair. If she just randomly dropped out, she would have a chance, since TLR is not tapping F-steel and f-zinc 24/7. 

But that (or trying to soulcast him) are probably the only ways she could do it at the moment.

Edited October 31, 2025 by therunner

[Qianweilian He/him]

13 hours ago, therunner said:

But that (or trying to soulcast him)

I don't think soulcasting him would be feasible because TLR is a sliver and powerful mistborn. It'd be even harder than soulcasting a radiant spren.

Edited October 31, 2025 by Qianweilian

[therunner he/him]

11 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I don't think soulcasting him would be feasible because TLR is a sliver and powerful mistborn. It'd be even harder than soulcasting a radiant spren.

I would say Soulcasting spren would be much more difficult than soulcasting even TLR. 

Slivers have only expanded souls by Shards power, whereas spren are Splinters of Shard. I mean to soulcast spren, you basically have to soulcast equivalent amount of Godmetal, and Shardblades are pretty large. 

Mistborn are not particularly Invested when they are not using their powers, and TLR won't be an exception, as he is not Invested enough to be ageless. If we take Breaths as a guide, TLR has less than 2000 BEUs (likely far less than that, as Mistborn are 2-3 BEUs), so soulcasting him is equivalent to Soulcasting less than 2000 people, difficult but with enough Lifelight...

Edited November 1, 2025 by therunner

[The Stick]

Keep in mind that TLR can easily tap his metal minds for investiture, which will probably invest him far too much to be soul cast. Another thing to consider is whether a full metal mind is capable of blocking about from Nightblood. I personally think that TLR would easily win assuming he just taps insane amounts of zinc, steel, pewter, and burns atium and chromium. In theory, he could shred lift in less than a second. I am also seeing an instance where he used huge amounts of gold and brass to turn into a miniature star and set the battlefield on fire. Of course, this is contingent on the above mentions that Rashek is an incredibly jaded and arrogant man. For example, he let Kelsier stab him just for the laughs and to show off his power to the skaa.

[Nitpicking]

Rashek is said to have survived being beheaded, something only seen in a non-canon work

SPOILER

Spoiler

In Dragonsteel Prime, proto-Hoid regenerates after beheading.

 

[Qianweilian He/him]

16 hours ago, The Stick said:

Keep in mind that TLR can easily tap his metal minds for investiture, which will probably invest him far too much to be soul cast

Yes, I agree.

16 hours ago, The Stick said:

Another thing to consider is whether a full metal mind is capable of blocking about from Nightblood.

I actually don't think so...Nightblood has killed a vessel! I think a metalmind could not block it; a regular shardblade might be another story.

16 hours ago, The Stick said:

he just taps insane amounts of zinc, steel, pewter, and burns atium and chromium.

I don't believe TLR has chromium actually...maybe he did and there's a WoB I can't find.

16 hours ago, The Stick said:

In theory, he could shred lift in less than a second

Yeah, probably. If he can get over his ego.

16 hours ago, The Stick said:

I am also seeing an instance where he used huge amounts of gold and brass to turn into a miniature star and set the battlefield on fire.

Where is this shown? If there isn't a text example, I'm not certain about this. The minimum temperature to fuse hydrogen on earth is about 100 million Kelvin, which I don't think TLR can even get close to, considering diminishing returns.

12 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

SPOILER

You should probably say the spoiler is for Dragonsteel Prime outside of the spoiler tag.

12 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Rashek is said to have survived being beheaded, something only seen in a non-canon work

I don't even think we need to mention Dragonsteel, as Hoid (kinda) healed from complete obliteration by a shard. Although he obviously couldn't heal if his metalminds were completely obliterated, TLR could likely heal similar levels of damage.

[Nitpicking]

14 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

You should probably say the spoiler is for Dragonsteel Prime outside of the spoiler tag.

I was torn, because mentioning it was a DP spoiler would, itself, be a DP spoiler.