I miss the old spren

[bmcclure7]

Previous oathbringer spren were portrayed as being living ideas and were more like archetypes that could talk than people. Since Oathbringer it seems like while we are still told that they are not people and do not think as people they are always be betrayed as thinking the same way humans do. Well, this is not necessarily a bad thing. I do miss the sort of alien feel they used to have. I wanted to see if others felt the same way.

[Returned he/him]

I agree. The old air of mystery counted for a lot, too, and was always likely to be changed as we saw more spren-related things (that's Sanderson's way of writing), but spren as a category of being do seem to be different from how they were presented before.

They're a lot like Star Trek aliens now: basically human in every meaningful way (never mind the outfits and a splash of makeup), sometimes temporarily organized around some theme which occasionally makes their behavior marginally different from human (but only when it's convenient for the plot). Now that there is regular communication with Shadesmar and spren communities maybe we'll get some more story and depth that brings some of that alien-ness back

[Treamayne]

Don't forget that Radiant Spren Sapience is directly tied to Oaths. For Example - Rua is still more like WoK Syl. 

I cannot tell, but it seems you are implying that all Radiant Spren have progressed as Syl has; when they are all different and should be judged as their own character in the story, not as just a blind lump group as if no differentiation exists. I will admit that the Bonded Spren we see most on-screen have progressed, because their Radiants and Oaths have also progressed. 

 

[Returned he/him]

I can't speak for @bmcclure7, but I'm mostly referring to the sapient spren in Shadesmar. Compared with humans they are a totally different type of being with a radically different environment, lifestyle, and mode of existence. But most of them are just folk, like anyone else on Roshar, and some even less strange than some humans (what little we saw of the Tukari seemed less like the Alethi ambassadors than did the Honorspren at Lasting Integrity). There's nothing wrong with them having a lot in common with humans (and similar physical realm beings). I just expected less overlap based on earlier depictions of the spren and their home, and hoped for some interesting differences in how they think and behave. Instead, they're not much more different from humans than the Alethi are from the Herdazians or the Azish. Again, that's OK (maybe it's even the point), but I had hoped for more novelty, originality, and worldbuilding around the spren than what has happened so far.

The bonded spren are more of a mixed bag, and I'll agree with your suggestion that their advancing bonds influence their minds (possibly in specific ways which would make them more human-like than might otherwise be the case). Syl is very human-like while Pattern seems to have some fundamental differences of thought and perception from Shallan which come up from time to time. Ivory seems very human-like, as long as the human in question is Jasnah. Dreaming-though-awake seems like they might have some interesting, non-human perspectives and habits, though we don't see much of them. The Stormfather's "I'm just a guy, like you" reveal is a case of its own, but most spren don't have that same narrative role.

[Treamayne]

On 10/14/2025 at 4:35 PM, Returned said:

I can't speak for @bmcclure7, but I'm mostly referring to the sapient spren in Shadesmar. Compared with humans they are a totally different type of being with a radically different environment, lifestyle, and mode of existence. But most of them are just folk, like anyone else on Roshar, and some even less strange than some humans (what little we saw of the Tukari seemed less like the Alethi ambassadors than did the Honorspren at Lasting Integrity). There's nothing wrong with them having a lot in common with humans (and similar physical realm beings). I just expected less overlap based on earlier depictions of the spren and their home, and hoped for some interesting differences in how they think and behave. Instead, they're not much more different from humans than the Alethi are from the Herdazians or the Azish. Again, that's OK (maybe it's even the point), but I had hoped for more novelty, originality, and worldbuilding around the spren than what has happened so far.

Copy all, that makes sense. 

I interpreted it as the Spren in Shadesmar are the level of Sapience a Bonded Spren would become at Fifth Oath (their mind is fully able to access the Physical Realm) so i expected Spren based on the Cognitive Ideal imagined by Humans to be a general median of Roshar's human population and the primary differences to be culture and geography (such as the layout of Lasting Integrity). That said, we've only really seen Celebrant and Lasting Integrity - so one communal multi-Spren merchant area, and one specialized for Honorspren. I imagine if/when we ever get to see a city specialized for the other eight Radiant Spren, then we will see much more deviation from the median (not all Spren were as close to humans pre-Recreance as Honorspren were). 

Edited November 28, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Don't forget that Radiant Spren Sapience is directly tied to Oaths. For Example - Rua is still more like WoK Syl. 

I cannot tell, but it seems you are implying that all Radiant Spren have progressed as Syl has; when they are all different and should be judged as their own character in the story, not as just a blind lump group as if no differentiation exists. I will admit that the Bonded Spren we see most on-screen have progressed, because their Radiants and Oaths have also progressed. 

 

Not true we meet many high spren without a bond and they act no different from 4th ideal spren 

And then there is the storm father who was inhumane even in oathbringer but we later found out that is just an act. 

 

[Argenti he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Not true we meet many high spren without a bond and they act no different from 4th ideal spren 

 

The Highspren are a unique case, who shouldn't be counted. They're weird.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Argenti said:

The Highspren are a unique case, who shouldn't be counted. They're weird.

I’m using high spren in this context were referred to all intelligent spren

[Determination]

Important to note that the "greater" spren suffer a fairly traumatic loss of intelligence when they cross over to the physical realm, which they restore through progressing the bond. We even see them regress very quickly if separated from their Radiant for too long (Kaladin/Syl in Rhythm of War) or if they misbehave (also Kaladin/Syl in Words of Radiance).

Words of Radiance, Ch. 75

Quote

"[...] Coming to this place, this world of yours, I had to give up many things. The transition was . . . traumatic. My memory returns slowly, but I am pleased at the chance. Yes. Mmm."

From that point of view, it would make sense that the Shadesmar spren seem so much more human-like than the unbonded/early-bond ones in the physical realm. It's because our first impression of these "greater" spren came from ones who just had a magical lobotomy. But that's not really their natural state.

Narratively I agree it's a little disappointing for the spren to end up feeling like weirdly-shaped humans, though. Something was definitely lost there. But it doesn't really bother me overall, I think it works.

[Knuti]

Stormlight Archive is not wysiwyg, Stormlight Archive is quicksand. The most common pitfall is its radical POV-orientation. The beliefs of the POVs are presented as undisputable truth (in their heads). And non-sapient spren are living ideas. So Kaladin perceived Sylphrena as such at the beginning. Later in WOR in the conflict about Elhokar Sylphrena acted as a person and was treated as a person. But that was shown, not told.

So, as it is I like it better. It gives spren agenda instead of functionallity. As should be for intelligent beings.

[bmcclure7]

On 11/27/2025 at 2:05 PM, Knuti said:

Stormlight Archive is not wysiwyg, Stormlight Archive is quicksand. The most common pitfall is its radical POV-orientation. The beliefs of the POVs are presented as undisputable truth (in their heads). And non-sapient spren are living ideas. So Kaladin perceived Sylphrena as such at the beginning. Later in WOR in the conflict about Elhokar Sylphrena acted as a person and was treated as a person. But that was shown, not told.

So, as it is I like it better. It gives spren agenda instead of functionallity. As should be for intelligent beings.

 

To each own, I suppose I’m not sure I like it better there are may be some aspects of it I like, but overall, I think I would’ve preferred if they had stayed more inhuman more like living ideas.  I disagree that this was necessary for them to have agenda instead of functionality. They have both agenda and functionality without this.

On 11/27/2025 at 7:52 AM, Determination said:

Important to note that the "greater" spren suffer a fairly traumatic loss of intelligence when they cross over to the physical realm, which they restore through progressing the bond. We even see them regress very quickly if separated from their Radiant for too long (Kaladin/Syl in Rhythm of War) or if they misbehave (also Kaladin/Syl in Words of Radiance).

Words of Radiance, Ch. 75

From that point of view, it would make sense that the Shadesmar spren seem so much more human-like than the unbonded/early-bond ones in the physical realm. It's because our first impression of these "greater" spren came from ones who just had a magical lobotomy. But that's not really their natural state.

Narratively I agree it's a little disappointing for the spren to end up feeling like weirdly-shaped humans, though. Something was definitely lost there. But it doesn't really bother me overall, I think it works.

I suppose when you put it like that it does kind of make sense still, I do have to agree. I feel like something is lost. I do see the benefits of having to spend being more human life, but it’s a mixed blessing if it is the one at all.