Why does everyone think that having killed Sadeas will destroy Adolin so much?

[RawToast225]

Well I thought what Jasnah did alley was vigilantism. That doesn't sit very well with the 'journey before destination' or 'life before death' part. Vigilante justice is usually shortsighted in nature and rarely beings long-term changes. And Radiants are meant to help people, not go about killing them. Killing is supposed to be the last resort when all other options are closed and even then it cannot be condoned. Radiants are so powerful, I feel they should always ere on the side of preserving life than using their powers for killing.

We don't know what are the specific Elsecaller oaths. When we know what oath's Jasnah swore or whether she has to swear any order specific oaths or not, perhaps we can find some justification for Jasnah's action.

That is a good reasoning for why Jasnah's killings didn't sit right with me. Thank you.

[Natanaj]

Dalinar does, like I said.

what about some general of his? Does he have the right to kill his superior, and turn the army around?

[sun tzaro]

And Radiants are meant to help people, not go about killing them. Killing is supposed to be the last resort when all other options are closed and even then it cannot be condoned. 

 

I don't think we've seen anywhere near enough of the established KR orders for a statement like this to be valid.

 

 

 

 

That doesn't sit very well with the 'journey before destination' or 'life before death' part. 

 

I'm a firm believer in the idea that so far, we've only really seen a Windrunner's interpretation of the first Oath. Jasnah could easily interpret "Life before death" and "Journey before destination" in ways that justify her actions.    

[Twenty@20]

I'm a firm believer in the idea that so far, we've only really seen a Windrunner's interpretation of the first Oath. Jasnah could easily interpret "Life before death" and "Journey before destination" in ways that justify her actions.

That's what I said in my last paragraph. I am willing to give Jasnah the benefit of doubt for the time being till we know of her oaths.

The argument that the protagonists have not said their full oaths should not be used as an excuse to shield them from criticism of their actions. Radiant or not what Jasnah did was vigilante killing and that is not good for the long-term interests of any society.

[Moogle]

The argument that the protagonists have not said their full oaths should not be used as an excuse to shield them from criticism of their actions. Radiant or not what Jasnah did was vigilante killing and that is not good for the long-term interests of any society.

 

Jasnah followed the law as much as she could, and told the king, who in turn commanded the guardsman to deal with them. They did nothing. What are you saying Jasnah should have done differently, out of curiosity?

[Twenty@20]

Jasnah followed the law as much as she could, and told the king, who in turn commanded the guardsman to deal with them. They did nothing. What are you saying Jasnah should have done differently, out of curiosity?

For one, she could have rounded off those 4 guys and hand them over to the authorities personally and checked that they were adequately punished. Even better, she could display her powers in a non-lethal way, put the fear of God into them and give them a chance to reform themselves. At the very least, she could have killed only 1 guy and show the others the consequences of their action.

Well basically I feel since Jasnah and all Radiants have so much power, they should be so much more socially responsible. They are called Knights Radiant for a reason. They were meant to guide and lead by example, society towards a honourable path.

[Cracknut]

DC logic. Lets imprison killers so they can later escape and kill more people. Well I don't like that. What's more honorable, bloodying your own hands so that those extra people not die, or keeping yourself clean and letting that happen? If Jasnah wasn't able to use her powers those people would have done what they did to others to her as well without any remorse and I don't see how they deserved Jasnah wasting her time on capturing them and handing them to authorities. 

I also don't see Life before Death as in Life is always more important than Death. Well, there's an example for you: Kelsier.

How I see it: Life is the ultimate journey while death is ultimate destination. Destination is unimportant compared to the journey i.e death is unimportant compared to life. It has nothing to do with KR killing someone, it's about KR living right even if it leads them to their deaths.

 

[Edgedancer]

DC logic. Lets imprison killers so they can later escape and kill more people. Well I don't like that. What's more honorable, bloodying your own hands so that those extra people not die, or keeping yourself clean and letting that happen? If Jasnah wasn't able to use her powers those people would have done what they did to others to her as well without any remorse and I don't see how they deserved Jasnah wasting her time on capturing them and handing them to authorities. 

I also don't see Life before Death as in Life is always more important than Death. Well, there's an example for you: Kelsier.

How I see it: Life is the ultimate journey while death is ultimate destination. Destination is unimportant compared to the journey i.e death is unimportant compared to life. It has nothing to do with KR killing someone, it's about KR living right even if it leads them to their deaths.

 

Not to jump into an argument about justifying killing and whether or not it was the right thing but do you know what always rubbed me the wrong way about Jasnah killing those thugs? Just the chapter before, which might have been the morning of the very same day, she preached that all humans are inherently good, if only given the chance. Kind of the opposite to judge people whose circumstances she doesn´t know as irredeemable murderers. From what she knew these people weren´t neccesarrily the same as the ones that commited the murders. It´s likely but they could have been desperate people that only wanted to feed their family and heard that they could get money this way, not even planning on killing anyone.

Not every person with a knife has to be such a unrepentant killer like the joker. Actually it kind of makes me think of a Steelheart scene in which Abraham acts like someone with the belief system Jasnah claims to have, when confronted with muggers. (Granted, the scene laid it on a bit to thick for my taste but that´s something else entierly.)

Edited November 6, 2014 by Edgedancer

[Kyats Rani]

Well, my interpretation of "life before death" is that you have to truly LIVE your life instead of being dead inside. I see this part of the ideal as a counter for the fact that a Radiant must be broken. Let's look at Kaladin - he was so broken that he considered himself already dead but he didn't start becoming a Radiant until he decided to live and keep trying (at the Honor Chasm at first and later after surviving the highstorm when he spoke the ideal). Or another example - the bridgemen were alive but not living and Kaladin had to help them live again, I see this as following this part of the first oath.

 

And even if the above is proven completely wrong, I don't think "life before death" is supposed to be read "no killing allowed, everyone must live" (which would lead us to the case of protagonist leaving alive somebody who have killed thousands of lives because said protagonist "isn't like him", which I call a total pile of dung). Killing shouldn't be treated as a way to solve every situation, but sometimes it's the only way (were Sadeas left alive he would continue to do more evil than good and propably cause some more deaths on top of the events on the Tower).

 

Thus being said, I'm not saying that what either Adolin or Jasnah did was right. Their intentions were ultimately good but the means they used to achieve it were wrong.

 

And yet, there is a WoB stating that what Jasnah did was worse than what Adolin did (I'll look it up and add the quote later). I agree with this. Jasnah tried to bait those men on purpose, she planned it and thought it out carefully before doing anything. What she planned to do was to kill them to prevent them from killing others. Adolin didn't plan murder, he acted in a rush of emotions. He didn't kill Sadeas in cold blood, he wasn't even thinking what he was doing at the point. He didn't even want to kill Sadeas, ultimatley he only wanted him not to cause any more trouble against Dalinar. That doesn't mean that what Adolin did isn't wrong, but it means that he's not a ruthless vigilante who considers himslef above the law. Come on, he felt guilty after he murdered Sadeas while Jasnah seemed not to show any emotions about it!

[Twenty@20]

DC logic. Lets imprison killers so they can later escape and kill more people. Well I don't like that. What's more honorable, bloodying your own hands so that those extra people not die, or keeping yourself clean and letting that happen? If Jasnah wasn't able to use her powers those people would have done what they did to others to her as well without any remorse and I don't see how they deserved Jasnah wasting her time on capturing them and handing them to authorities. 

I also don't see Life before Death as in Life is always more important than Death. Well, there's an example for you: Kelsier.

How I see it: Life is the ultimate journey while death is ultimate destination. Destination is unimportant compared to the journey i.e death is unimportant compared to life. It has nothing to do with KR killing someone, it's about KR living right even if it leads them to their deaths.

 

 To clarify, are you in favour of killing all killers? If so then society will have take resonsibility for killing them and it includes us too. Then we will all be a society of killers. Do you belive that no criminal deserves a second chance? Do you believe that some people are born criminals and the only solution is to kill them? If you answer yes to any of these questions, then you have a wrong idea about justice system. If the justice sytem is not working properly, the solution is to reform it, not entirely bypass it. Because otherwise we are going to have the rule of force not rule of law.

 

Also is Jasnah's vigilante killing an example of "KR living right" as you put it?

Edited November 6, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Cracknut]

Not to jump into an argument about justifying killing and whether or not it was the right thing but do you know what always rubbed me the wrong way about Jasnah killing those thugs? Just the chapter before, which might have been the morning of the very same day, she preached that all humans are inherently good, if only given the chance. Kind of the opposite to judge people whose circumstances she doesn´t know as irredeemable murderers. From what she knew these people weren´t neccesarrily the same as the ones that commited the murders. It´s likely but they could have been desperate people that only wanted to feed their family and heard that they could get money this way, not even planning on killing anyone.

Not every person with a knife has to be such a unrepentant killer like the joker. Actually it kind of makes me think of a Steelheart scene in which Abraham acts like someone with the belief system Jasnah claims to have, when confronted with muggers. (Granted, the scene laid it on a bit to thick for my taste but that´s something else entierly.)

 

Just for the sake of discussion: Well I doubt she wasn't sure whether those people were some poor thieves wanting to feed their families without killing anyone or those exact dudes who murdered several people. And maybe all people are inherently good if they're given the chance but obviously people who start killing random people either missed to take that chance or weren't offered one in the first place.

 

 

 To clarify, are you in favour of killing all killers? If so then society will have take resonsibility for killing them and it includes us too. Then we will all be a society of killers. Do you belive that no criminal deserves a second chance? Do you believe that some people are born criminals and the only solution is to kill them? If you answer yes to any of these questions, then you have a wrong idea about justice system. If the justice sytem is not working properly, the solution is to reform it, not entirely bypass it. Because otherwise we are going to have the rule of force not rule of law.

 

Also is Jasnah's vigilante killing an example of "KR living right" as you put it?

 

No I'm not in favour of killing all killers. But why is Kaladin killing Szeth KR thing, but Jasnah killing those murderers not a KR thing? Because only difference I see there(except authors choice to give us more information about Szeth and let us see from his point of view, while giving us almost nothing about those murderers.) is class difference. they were four lowly thieves/rapists/murderers or whatever and Szeth, a professional killer with lots of cool tricks up his sleeve as well as top class weapon.

 

Well she still has her Spren right? If that deed had been something horrible in the eyes of her Spren he would indeed tell her about it. I don't know whether that was "KR living right" or not. I never said that by the way.

+1 Kyats Rani.

Well Jasnah killing them can be considered bad thing because it was planned but that's kinda shallow in my opinion.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Cracknut

[Moogle]

For one, she could have rounded off those 4 guys and hand them over to the authorities personally and checked that they were adequately punished. Even better, she could display her powers in a non-lethal way, put the fear of God into them and give them a chance to reform themselves. At the very least, she could have killed only 1 guy and show the others the consequences of their action.

 

The authorities have shown that they are unwilling to act against these men, quite possibly because they've been bribed. Bringing these men to the authorities seems like a bad idea.

 

Soulcasting non-lethally is... I'm not sure how Jasnah would do it, exactly. And killing one person would leave three more to beat, murder, and possibly rape more people. There is no guarantee they'd stop doing what they are doing, and frankly I find it rather unlikely.

 

I'm not really convinced that Jasnah could have in good conscience acted differently than she did, because she would have risked more innocents dying. Thank you for elaborating, however. I understand your position better now.

 

And yet, there is a WoB stating that what Jasnah did was worse than what Adolin did (I'll look it up and add the quote later). I agree with this. Jasnah tried to bait those men on purpose, she planned it and thought it out carefully before doing anything. What she planned to do was to kill them to prevent them from killing others. Adolin didn't plan murder, he acted in a rush of emotions. He didn't kill Sadeas in cold blood, he wasn't even thinking what he was doing at the point. He didn't even want to kill Sadeas, ultimatley he only wanted him not to cause any more trouble against Dalinar. That doesn't mean that what Adolin did isn't wrong, but it means that he's not a ruthless vigilante who considers himslef above the law. Come on, he felt guilty after he murdered Sadeas while Jasnah seemed not to show any emotions about it!

 

I find this position interesting! I myself find major issue with what Adolin did simply because he impulsively killed someone. Lacking self-control to the point where you do that seems to me to be a huge, huge character flaw. Adolin should have planned and assassinated Sadeas months earlier, in my mind.

 

As to Jasnah: it's very likely she felt very many emotions. The PoVs we have from her show she's actually quite emotional, she just doesn't show it in order to convey a sense of power and control.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Moogle

[Twenty@20]

The authorities have shown that they are unwilling to act against these men, quite possibly because they've been bribed. Bringing these men to the authorities seems like a bad idea.

 

Soulcasting non-lethally is... I'm not sure how Jasnah would do it, exactly. And killing one person would leave three more to beat, murder, and possibly rape more people. There is no guarantee they'd stop doing what they are doing, and frankly I find it rather unlikely.

 

I'm not really convinced that Jasnah could have in good conscience acted differently than she did, because she would have risked more innocents dying. Thank you for elaborating, however. I understand your position better now.

 i don't see killing 4 criminals will improve the secuity in the alley by much. Other criminals will simply take  their place. And we even don't know if those 4 guys were the only criminals there. This sort of kneejerk reaction is only populist but never brings any lasting change. As I said earlier the only way these problems can  be solved is by improving the policing and justice system. For example, Jasnah could have simply gone to the lighteye in charge of city watch and coerced him into mending his ways. That would have been the most logical solution. 

 

Jasnah could have simply soulcasted their weapons as another example. Another point is that the scene is described from the Shallan's PoV which makes these criminals demonic. Jasnah knew they were never in danger. Also how does Jasnah know, these were the very people who killed earlier?

Edited November 6, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Twenty@20]

 

No I'm not in favour of killing all killers. But why is Kaladin killing Szeth KR thing, but Jasnah killing those murderers not a KR thing? Because only difference I see there(except authors choice to give us more information about Szeth and let us see from his point of view, while giving us almost nothing about those murderers.) is class difference. they were four lowly thieves/rapists/murderers or whatever and Szeth, a professional killer with lots of cool tricks up his sleeve as well as top class weapon.

 

Well she still has her Spren right? If that deed had been something horrible in the eyes of her Spren he would indeed tell her about it. I don't know whether that was "KR living right" or not. I never said that by the way

Thanks for the clarification. For the record, I have written in one of my posts before that there was no need for Kaladin to kill Szeth.

I have also said that until we know about Jasnah's Elsecaller oaths, I give her benefit of doubt but at the same time I retain the right to critisize her actions based on what we know. You did say that "Life before death" means KR living their lives right. So I asked you, if vigilante killing falls under that?

[Blaze1616]

And yet, there is a WoB stating that what Jasnah did was worse than what Adolin did (I'll look it up and add the quote later). I agree with this. Jasnah tried to bait those men on purpose, she planned it and thought it out carefully before doing anything. What she planned to do was to kill them to prevent them from killing others. Adolin didn't plan murder, he acted in a rush of emotions. He didn't kill Sadeas in cold blood, he wasn't even thinking what he was doing at the point. He didn't even want to kill Sadeas, ultimatley he only wanted him not to cause any more trouble against Dalinar. That doesn't mean that what Adolin did isn't wrong, but it means that he's not a ruthless vigilante who considers himslef above the law. Come on, he felt guilty after he murdered Sadeas while Jasnah seemed not to show any emotions about it!

 

It hasn't been said yet, so I'll do the honors. The difference between the two situations is that Adolin committed 3rd degree murder. He found himself in the situation, with having planned on killing Sadeas. Jasnah, on the other hand, committed 4 counts of 1st degree murder. She premeditated, executed the premeditated plan, and had malicious afterthought in justifying the murders to Shallan. I think we can agree that 1st degree is worse than 3rd degree, and this might be what Brandon was hinting at in the WoB. It should be noted, though, that one could argue Adolin committed 2nd degree murder rather than 3rd, for he did intend to kill Sadeas, just not in the brutal, horrifying way that he wound up doing so. I would say 2nd degree is still not as bad as 1st degree, but it does make the two situations a bit more similar.

 

As a side note, has anyone brought up the possibility of Adolin's murder causing him to no longer be eligible to be a KR. By that, I mean that "his" spren had not found him yet/was not matured yet to introduce himself/herself, and Adolin killing Sadeas makes any future oath of Life before Death invalid, and so he loses his abilities prior to him even getting them? Just a thought.

[Arondell]

 

As a side note, has anyone brought up the possibility of Adolin's murder causing him to no longer be eligible to be a KR. By that, I mean that "his" spren had not found him yet/was not matured yet to introduce himself/herself, and Adolin killing Sadeas makes any future oath of Life before Death invalid, and so he loses his abilities prior to him even getting them? Just a thought.

 

It appears that each of the orders of the Knights Radiant adhere to a different interpretation of honor.  As we can see with Jasnah this varies considerably from order to order.  It seems that Jasnah's spren Ivory had no issue with what Jasnah did when killing those four attackers.  The fact that she was able to soulcast the attackers implies that Ivory may have even approved.  As a counter example when Kaladin had that "schoolyard" fight with Adolin in the dueling arena Sylphrena cut off his stormlight abilities entirely since what he was doing was counter to the interpretation of honor she represents.

 

It seems clear in the future that some of the orders will adhere to interpretations of honor that many here will not agree with.  I for one am very interested in what the Releaser(Dustbringer) oaths will be since one of the lines from Words of Radiance indicates that in the past many didn't see much difference between them and voidbringers.

[Blaze1616]

 I for one am very interested in what the Releaser(Dustbringer) oaths will be since one of the lines from Words of Radiance indicates that in the past many didn't see much difference between them and voidbringers.

 

Perhaps this murdering of Sadeas is simply further evidence pointing towards Adolin becoming a Dustbringer then.

[Kyats Rani]

Well Jasnah killing them can be considered bad thing because it was planned but that's kinda shallow in my opinion.

I'm not saying that the fact it was planned is the only reason to consider it bad. It's just one of the reasons

 

I find this position interesting! I myself find major issue with what Adolin did simply because he impulsively killed someone. Lacking self-control to the point where you do that seems to me to be a huge, huge character flaw. Adolin should have planned and assassinated Sadeas months earlier, in my mind.

As to Jasnah: it's very likely she felt very many emotions. The PoVs we have from her show she's actually quite emotional, she just doesn't show it in order to convey a sense of power and control.

Generally it really is a huge character flaw. But Adolin was generally in a bad psychical state during that time and the hatred towards Sadeas and his doings was building inside him for a long time by then. And Sadeas didn't make matters better for himself by goading him even more. He has also shown considerable amount of guilt so he does regret his actions (but not their purpose - he regrets killing but not getting rid of Sadeas). I'm not saying this to protect Adolin or justify him as what he did was wrong but to show he's not that much rampant as it seems.

Ok, I guess the fact that Shallan didn't seem to catch any of Jasnah's emotions after the incident is a very, very poor argument on my side and I apologize for using it But the point still stands that Jasnah tends to take the matters of justice in her own hands and calmly plan murders (that associates also with the fact she was hiring assassins). If Adolin was really so uncontrolable as Sadeas' murder seems to indicate he would have done so long ago. But he is not a ruthless person who plots to kill someone (I'm not saying that Jasnah is...), he just wanted to stand for his father and his family. Taking into account his current character development I totally see him beating himself up due to his guilt in the next book.

 

 

[EDIT] As for how the murder would affect Adolin's chances of becoming a KR... There's a WoB that some orders would be very happy with what he did to Sadeas. Willshapers for sure and very possibly Dustbringers, but Brandon didn't give a straight answer about them. Pretty much all about this particular matter has been discussed in the thread

[Theory] It has been foreshadowed that Adolin will be a Radiant.  Edited November 6, 2014 by Kyats Rani

[Moogle]

i don't see killing 4 criminals will improve the secuity in the alley by much. Other criminals will simply take  their place. And we even don't know if those 4 guys were the only criminals there.

 

I'm not sure that other criminals would take their place. These men in particular seemed to be making a name for themselves if Jasnah managed to find out about them, which suggests they were particularly notorious.

 

This sort of kneejerk reaction is only populist but never brings any lasting change. As I said earlier the only way these problems can  be solved is by improving the policing and justice system. For example, Jasnah could have simply gone to the lighteye in charge of city watch and coerced him into mending his ways. That would have been the most logical solution.

 

Jasnah is a heretic and a foreign princess. She has no power to change anything in the city. Even Taravangian, leader of the city, didn't have the power to force the lighteyes in charge of the guards to do anything. Improving the justice system is a worthy goal, but Jasnah isn't the one who can do it. She found out about criminals murdering passerbys, and decided to save as many lives as she could.

 

Jasnah could have simply soulcasted their weapons as another example. Another point is that the scene is described from the Shallan's PoV which makes these criminals demonic. Jasnah knew they were never in danger. Also how does Jasnah know, these were the very people who killed earlier?

 

Well, for one, the men had sharp daggers and were very clearly approaching with the intent to kill. Shallan's PoV may be biased, but in general it is accepted that if someone has a weapon out and is approaching you they mean you harm. Just because Jasnah has the ability to defend herself and was in no real danger does not suddenly exonerate the men who were planning on murdering Jasnah. That's just victim blaming at that point.

 

As to Soulcasting their daggers, the men still had fists they could use to beat Jasnah and Shallan to death. And if Jasnah showed her Soulcaster like that and didn't kill them with it, they'd be all the more inspired to kill her so they could steal such a priceless artifact.

 

The difference between the two situations is that Adolin committed 3rd degree murder. He found himself in the situation, with having planned on killing Sadeas. Jasnah, on the other hand, committed 4 counts of 1st degree murder. She premeditated, executed the premeditated plan, and had malicious afterthought in justifying the murders to Shallan. I think we can agree that 1st degree is worse than 3rd degree, and this might be what Brandon was hinting at in the WoB.

 

I'll take you up on that one: I'd argue in this case, first degree "murder" is much preferable to third degree murder. At least I can trust Jasnah won't explode and murder me for saying the wrong thing in front of her.

 

I have major issues with calling it murder, however. Murder is a negative word with many negative connotations which don't apply to the situations in which Jasnah and Adolin found themselves. If you say X murdered Y, generally it is understood that X is a horrible dangerous person who should be locked up.

 

Adolin, at least, acted to kill the man who previously attempted to kill him and his father, and was currently raving about killing his father now. Jasnah acted in self-defense to kill one man, and killed three others to prevent them from harming others. This isn't quite what we think of when we say murder, so using the word murder is not as accurate as it could be.

[Twenty@20]

 

I'm not sure that other criminals would take their place. These men in particular seemed to be making a name for themselves if Jasnah managed to find out about them, which suggests they were particularly notorious.

 

 

Jasnah is a heretic and a foreign princess. She has no power to change anything in the city. Even Taravangian, leader of the city, didn't have the power to force the lighteyes in charge of the guards to do anything. Improving the justice system is a worthy goal, but Jasnah isn't the one who can do it. She found out about criminals murdering passerbys, and decided to save as many lives as she could.

 

 

Well, for one, the men had sharp daggers and were very clearly approaching with the intent to kill. Shallan's PoV may be biased, but in general it is accepted that if someone has a weapon out and is approaching you they mean you harm. Just because Jasnah has the ability to defend herself and was in no real danger does not suddenly exonerate the men who were planning on murdering Jasnah. That's just victim blaming at that point.

 

As to Soulcasting their daggers, the men still had fists they could use to beat Jasnah and Shallan to death. And if Jasnah showed her Soulcaster like that and didn't kill them with it, they'd be all the more inspired to kill her so they could steal such a priceless artifact.

 

 

I'll take you up on that one: I'd argue in this case, first degree "murder" is much preferable to third degree murder. At least I can trust Jasnah won't explode and murder me for saying the wrong thing in front of her.

 

I have major issues with calling it murder, however. Murder is a negative word with many negative connotations which don't apply to the situations in which Jasnah and Adolin found themselves. If you say X murdered Y, generally it is understood that X is a horrible dangerous person who should be locked up.

 

Adolin, at least, acted to kill the man who previously attempted to kill him and his father, and was currently raving about killing his father now. Jasnah acted in self-defense to kill one man, and killed three others to prevent them from harming others. This isn't quite what we think of when we say murder, so using the word murder is not as accurate as it could be.

Well I kind of expected the foreign princess argument. Jasnah belongs to the ruling class of the most powerful kingdom on Roshar. I think she has much more power than Taravangian, king of a small city. (Note i am talking  of the Taravangian we knew before his grand plan came out)  We saw how she barely tolerated Taravangian during one or two times she met him. If she were to go and threaten the lighteye, even on the pain of death, who could have stopped her. Also she would have public opinion with her.  So I will argue that Jasnah is exactly the one to do it.  

I still believe the self-defence argument is weak in Jasnah's case. She purposefully let the footpads attack her when she could have easily disabled them from a distance. Just knock them out with aid of stormlight and  soulcast 4 walls around the around them to capture them.

 Any killing in civil domain is generally called homicide. What elevates homicide to murder is the establishment of intent behind the homicide. Most penal systems all over the world require establishment of intent to define murder because it is the intent to kill rather than the actual killing which is far more serious.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Moogle]

Well I kind of expected the foreign princess argument. Jasnah belongs to the ruling class of the most powerful kingdom on Roshar. I think she has much more power than Taravangian, king of a small city. (Note i am talking  of the Taravangian we knew before his grand plan came out)  We saw how she barely tolerated Taravangian during one or two times she met him. If she were to go and threaten the lighteye, even on the pain of death, who could have stopped her.

 

The captain of the guard himself could have stopped her, as death threats are illegal. Jasnah is a heretic, and barely tolerated by anyone in Vorin societies. Taravangian is actually something of an exception in that regard for treating her kindly. She can bully around common folk, but a high-ranking lighteyes in a country she has no power in? We'll have to disagree on this point, I think. I feel you're overestimating how much power she has. If she tried to threaten people, I think she'd fine herself forcibly withdrawn back to Alethkar by order of Elhokar.

 

 

Also she would have public opinion with her.

 

Public opinion doesn't matter. Kharbranth is, unfortunately, not democratic.

 

 

I still believe the self-defence argument is weak in Jasnah's case. She purposefully let the footpads attack her when she could have easily disabled them from a distance. Just knock them out with aid of stormlight and  soulcast 4 walls around the around them to capture them. 

 

Knocking them out with Stormlight would reveal her powers to Shallan, which would get her outed as a Knight Radiant or Voidbringer or some such, which would seriously hamper her efforts to save the world. So yes, I agree she could have done that, but I disagree that it would be a good idea. And I'm not quite sure what the point of capturing them would be, as the local law enforcement have been shown to be probably be bribed or else will not do anything for political reasons. Why would they keep them in jail and not just let them go?

[Blaze1616]

 I'll take you up on that one: I'd argue in this case, first degree "murder" is much preferable to third degree murder. At least I can trust Jasnah won't explode and murder me for saying the wrong thing in front of her.

 

I can agree with your statement, however I believe most 3rd degree murders, being impromptu, are acts of passion. As such, one would have to antagonize an individual in some fashion, for an extended period of time, before said individual reaches the breaking point and acts out of rage to murder. So unless I find myself in such a situation, I would never be in danger from Adolin. I say believe, however, because I have failed to find actual facts about 3rd degree murders proving my belief.

 

I have major issues with calling it murder, however. Murder is a negative word with many negative connotations which don't apply to the situations in which Jasnah and Adolin found themselves. If you say X murdered Y, generally it is understood that X is a horrible dangerous person who should be locked up.

 

Adolin, at least, acted to kill the man who previously attempted to kill him and his father, and was currently raving about killing his father now. Jasnah acted in self-defense to kill one man, and killed three others to prevent them from harming others. This isn't quite what we think of when we say murder, so using the word murder is not as accurate as it could be.

 

Though I agree the connotation of murder is a negative one, the denotation is still accurate. Interestingly, when looking up the definition of murder to source, there are numerous definitions. Some define murder as the definition of 1st degree, while others don't. Moreover, I would argue that, at least in Adolin's case, the situation does warrant the use of the negatively connoted term "murder." Adolin, enraged, lashed out and commenced to beat Sadeas. During the struggle Adolin, in his blind rage, stabbed Sadeas. To make matters worse, the killing was extremely brutal. He didn't just stab Sadeas in the usual locations of chest/stomach. He jammed the knife into Sadeas' eye socket. I would say that the whole event, being as brutal and bloody as it was, does indeed to deserve to be called murder. Adolin's intentions, to an extent, may have been pure-ish in the fact that Sadeas had already attempted to kill him and Dalinar, and claimed he would try to again, but that should still not qualify as an excuse to savagely attack and kill the man. Had Sadeas initiated, however, the story would be completely different, as it would be self defense.

 

The other aspect that I feel justifies calling Adolin's crime murder is the fact that Adolin, indeed, had planned on killing Sadeas. He did not, however, intend to kill Sadeas in this manner, which causes the crime to be 2nd degree at worst. One cannot claim it manslaughter, however, for those thoughts and plans to kill Sadeas existed. So, at the very least, the term murder applies legally.

 

As for Jasnah, I too find "murder" to be too negatively connoted. One could easily argue that, even though she planned on killing those men, she did wait for one of them to initiate an attack before going on the offensive. As a result, her crime was not 1st degree murder, but rather self-defense manslaughter. The question then becomes whether she needed to kill the others then. If the answer is no, she is still guilty of murder. In addition, I agree with Jasnah's logic behind killing those men, but due to the nature of Adolin's crime, there was no logic, though I do feel Sadeas needed to be dealt with. Murder just was not what I had in mind.

[Fallen Rope]

I think Sadeas may of killed more people than Sezth! He killed about 600 at the tower and hundreds more in the bridge crews plus a lot of things we don't know about. Seth has done at the most 40 assassinations with only a few dead each time. Sadeas is also shown to have no guilt and no hope of redemption while Sezth could have found redemption. If Kaladin was right to kill Sezth then Adolin was definitely right to kill Sadeas.

[soulcastJam]

Back to the OP.  I think killing Sadeas will change Adolin simply because he was in the habit of controlling himself and channeling his anger in dad-approved methods.  He often didn't agree with his dad but he still kept to it for the most part.  He has now broken that habit in a way that he feels justified doing, which makes it much more likely that he won't get back in the habit.  I'm not judging whether that is bad or good for the sake of the story, and I certainly don't think this precludes him from being a radiant as the oaths appear to be very subjective to me. Take the first oath- I've already seen several interpretations of it on this thread.  I think all the oaths are interpreted as the user wants to interpret them, and they are binding if the Stormfather agrees that they fit into the loose concepts he has about the oaths.  Life before death could mean a whole number of things with totally different implications.  

 

So Adolin might become a radiant, or he might not, but the type he becomes will probably change due to this incident as he has made a choice to act differently than he acted before.  The concern people have with this destroying him is probably because they see this as a character-changing moment without the reassurance that it was a positive change.  We are left with this as a cliff-hanger and have no idea if Brandon will use this to make him more likable or not.  And that's totally subjective too, so likely Maxal will still like Adolin no matter what =), and the rest of us will like him more or less based on how much he changes his personality to fit how we want him to be.  Or we might all love him because, after all, this is Brandon writing.

Edited November 6, 2014 by soulcastJam

[Twenty@20]

Re Moogle: I get the gist of your arguments. Jasnah lacking authority in foreign country, corruption among lighteyes, moribund legal sytem and reluctance to expose her Radiant powers. I hope once the Knights are reestablished in full force, then they will have enough authority, capability and willingness to eschew unlawful killings and strengthen the rule of law.