Why does everyone think that having killed Sadeas will destroy Adolin so much?

[Natanaj he/him]

Adolin has killed people before, and Sadeas was a terrible person. Dalinar may not approve of it, but i doubt it would destroy their relationship. I also fail to see how Adolin could ever feel guilty about what he did.

[Khyrindor he/him]

While Adolin has killed people in duels and in battle, this is murder. 

[Cracknut he/him]

Well killing in a duel isn't a holy deed either to be honest. I kinda agree with op except I believe it will ruin his relationship with Dalinar and maybe even Kaladin which will in turn destroy him but I believe he won't become a villain and if he does then it's gonna be for a short period of time.

We also shouldn't forget that even though Sanderson writes in heroic genre it doesn't means that every single character on the side of good has to be someone like Kaladin or Dalinar. Vasher pretty much "murdered" someone in first chapter of Warbreaker. Kelsier did what he did as much for the good of people as for his personal vengeance and even though I can't remember him "murdering" someone I doubt he hasn't done it. Dude didn't kill nobles because he had to, well sometimes he did it because of that but he also did it because he hated them. So I don't see Adolin killing Sadeas that problematic although there will be some consequences for that and let's face it, one more book with Sadeas in it? I'd rather have Adolin go bad and team up with Odium

[RawToast225 he/him]

He is a psychopath, in my opinion. He killed a man, destroyed the evidence, then went and put his arm around Shallan like nothing happened. I got the sense that he enjoyed the killing. I might be wrong, but Adolin will never be a Radiant, this murder wouldn't "destroy" him, and he will kill again. He might face Kaladin at one point as Kaladin tries to defend the man Adolin would kill. That'd be cool. I'd love to see that fight.

[Cracknut he/him]

He is a psychopath, in my opinion. He killed a man, destroyed the evidence, then went and put his arm around Shallan like nothing happened. I got the sense that he enjoyed the killing. I might be wrong, but Adolin will never be a Radiant, this murder wouldn't "destroy" him, and he will kill again. He might face Kaladin at one point as Kaladin tries to defend the man Adolin would kill. That'd be cool. I'd love to see that fight.

Well I don't think someone has to be a Radiant to be a good guy. I really hope we'll have characters on the side of good guys who aren't Radiants. Now that I think about it, we already have Radiants that are bad. At least from my point of view. Maybe magic is just a tool in the end and it's not a deciding factor of who's good and who's bad. What I'm trying to say here is that Adolin does not has to be a radiant to be a major protagonist of this story.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

He is a psychopath, in my opinion. He killed a man, destroyed the evidence, then went and put his arm around Shallan like nothing happened. I got the sense that he enjoyed the killing. I might be wrong, but Adolin will never be a Radiant, this murder wouldn't "destroy" him, and he will kill again. He might face Kaladin at one point as Kaladin tries to defend the man Adolin would kill. That'd be cool. I'd love to see that fight.

Adolin hugged Shallan in Chapter 88 and went on to kill Sadeas in the next chapter. We will see the repercussions of his deed and how he copes with that in the next book. Hence all the speculation

[Oudeis he/him]

Kelsier did what he did as much for the good of people as for his personal vengeance and even though I can't remember him "murdering" someone I doubt he hasn't done it.

 

LOL Kelsier murdered the STUFFING out of people. The one that springs immediately to mind is some drunk noble he killed in an alley, just so he could plant the body near a noble keep. Yeah Kelsier was a straight-up psychopath, I believe we have WoB on this, perhaps an annotation?

 

Alloy of Law:

Wax draws a parallel at one point to Miles and Kelsier, commenting on how if Miles had been born in the World of Ash, he'd've been a hero. Kelsier-the-psychopath was a hero back then, because that's what the world actually needed. By Alloy of Law, the world was a place where a psycho was a bad guy.

 

Maybe magic is just a tool in the end and it's not a deciding factor of who's good and who's bad.

 

Tread carefully here; there's an entire thread somewhere of people reacting VERY poorly to the idea that you can be a Radiant if you're anything less than a paragon of virtue.

[RawToast225 he/him]

Kaladin wasn't a paragon of honor when he started. You grow into a Radiant as you grow into the virtues of the order.

[Guest]

He is a psychopath, in my opinion. He killed a man, destroyed the evidence, then went and put his arm around Shallan like nothing happened. I got the sense that he enjoyed the killing. I might be wrong, but Adolin will never be a Radiant, this murder wouldn't "destroy" him, and he will kill again. He might face Kaladin at one point as Kaladin tries to defend the man Adolin would kill. That'd be cool. I'd love to see that fight.

A psychopath? Adolin? Are we reading the same book? A psychopath in an individual characterized by an anti-social behavior and a lack of empathy as well as remorse. Adolin does not even begin to meet this description... Lack of empathy? Adolin is one of the most empathic character in the series, deeply caring for his close ones and even going as far as rescuing a lowly prostitute. He has consistently put himself last, always willing to risk his life, if need be, to protect his family.

Sadeas has betrayed the Kohlins. He has abandoned them to a sure death just so he could get rid of an enemy. He did not care if the life of 10 000 men is required as a collateral damage. Adolin has spent weeks trying to warm Dalinar about Sadeas, but his father would not listen as he was convinced his visions were telling him to trust him. As a result, both Adolin and Dalinar nearly died, but more importantly, 6000 Kohlin soldiers were uselessly slaughtered.

Adolin has never taken those deaths easily. He has sought to get revenge, but was determined to do it following his father's rules. All the while they were plotting to find a way to bring him into the ring, Sadeas was constantly and purposelessly aggravating Adolin, hoping to steer him into boldness. Adolin has consistently kept himself under control.

However, he lost it at the end. True. Sadeas caught him in a moment of weakness and taunted him once more. He basically told him he would do everything in his power to undo his father and there is nothing they could do to make him stop. His last speech almost sounded like a war declaration to house Kohlin, so yeah, Adolin lost it. He was not in his best mental state to begin with: he was still physically injured from the battle and moreover, he is troubled by the Radiants. He is said to wander of alone more and more, to ask himself questions he cannot answer. He was emotionally vulnerable in that moment and he did commit a crime: to protect his father.

And of course, his initial reaction is to act all traces of him being there: he is in shock! It is a completely normal reaction to try to undo your actions by covering your traces when you are panicking. It is like trying to pretend it never happened. In fact, it is very similar to Shallan who selectively forgot about killing her mother. Adolin actions are not the mark of a psychopath, but of a young man who has just done a horrible thing and is trying to cope.

How would this undo Adolin? Simple. Guilt. Adolin is a nice person, caring and loving. He has a good heart, a kind heart. He is not a killer nor is he a soldier. He became one by circumstances, but deep down, he is a duelist. He man who loves the art of fighting, the honor of even fights, not a blood thirsty warrior. Now he has killed a man, he has broken the law, but moreover, he has failed Dalinar. Dalinar is everything to Adolin. He is his hero and his role model. Knowing he has deceived his father will tear him apart. There is also the fact everyone he knows are now Radiants, but him, the murderer. Already, before committing the deed, he was pondering as to where he stand in this new world: a question he could not answer. He'll most likely go into a downward loop of self-depreciation combined with an increased effort to prove himself. Bottom line, he'll get more impulsive and emotional then before.

We could also add to the combo he has lost his Rhysadium. He'll soon find out his Blade is a dead spren he is torturing each time he summons it. He lost the Thrill...

Adolin is not going into a nice place, but I failed to see how he would want to kill more people and discuss it with Kaladin?

[Guest]

Tread carefully here; there's an entire thread somewhere of people reacting VERY poorly to the idea that you can be a Radiant if you're anything less than a paragon of virtue.

 

Gee Outis... You don't think you are going a bit far with this one? If I did not hate downvotes so much, I would be tempted to give you one just for saying that. I was unaware defending ones point was associated to a "poor reaction".

 

I personally think this post is downright insulting as I know quite well you are targeting me.

 

I honestly do not know what to make of it. Posts like this, combined with the unexplained downvotes I keep getting, sometimes make me want to just leave this forum, which is sad because I like it here. Well, congratulations, you have just succeeded into making me feel like an unwanted piece of crap. Thank you.

[RawToast225 he/him]

A psychopath? Adolin? Are we reading the same book? A psychopath in an individual characterized by an anti-social behavior and a lack of empathy as well as remorse. Adolin does not even begin to meet this description... Lack of empathy? Adolin is one of the most empathic character in the series, deeply caring for his close ones and even going as far as rescuing a lowly prostitute. He has consistently put himself last, always  willing to risk his life, if need be, to protect his family.

 

Sadeas has betrayed the Kohlins. He has abandoned them to a sure death just so he could get rid of an enemy. He did not care if the life of 10 000 men is required as a collateral damage. Adolin has spent weeks trying to warm Dalinar about Sadeas, but his father would not listen as he was convinced his visions were telling him to trust him. As a result, both Adolin and Dalinar nearly died, but more importantly, 6000 Kohlin soldiers were uselessly slaughtered.

 

Adolin has never taken those deaths easily. He has sought to get revenge, but was determined to do it following his father's rules. All the while they were plotting to find a way to bring him into the ring, Sadeas was constantly and purposelessly aggravating Adolin, hoping to steer him into boldness. Adolin has consistently kept himself under control.

 

However, he lost it at the end. True. Sadeas caught him in a moment of weakness and taunted him once more. He basically told him he would do everything in his power to undo his father and there is nothing they could do to make him stop. His last speech almost sounded like a war declaration to house Kohlin, so yeah, Adolin lost it. He was not in his best mental state to begin with: he was still physically injured from the battle and moreover, he is troubled by the Radiants. He is said to wander of alone more and more, to ask himself questions he cannot answer. He was emotionally vulnerable in that moment and he did commit a crime: to protect his father.

 

And of course, his initial reaction is to act all traces of him being there: he is in shock! It is a completely normal reaction to try to undo your actions by covering your traces when you are panicking. It is like trying to pretend it never happened. In fact, it is very similar to Shallan who selectively forgot about killing her mother. Adolin actions are not the mark of a psychopath, but of a young man who has just done a horrible thing and is trying to cope.

 

How would this undo Adolin? Simple. Guilt. Adolin is a nice person, caring and loving. He has a good heart, a kind heart. He is not a killer nor is he a soldier. He became one by circumstances, but deep down, he is a duelist. He man who loves the art of fighting, the honor of even fights, not a blood thirsty warrior. Now he has killed a man, he has broken the law, but moreover, he has failed Dalinar. Dalinar is everything to Adolin. He is his hero and his role model. Knowing he has deceived his father will tear him apart. There is also the fact everyone he knows are now Radiants, but him, the murderer. Already, before committing the deed, he was pondering as to where he stand in this new world: a question he could not answer. He'll most likely go into a downward loop of self-depreciation combined with an increased effort to prove himself. Bottom line, he'll get more impulsive and emotional then before.

 

We could also add to the combo he has lost his Rhysadium. He'll soon find out his Blade is a dead spren he is torturing each time he summons it. He lost the Thrill...

 

Adolin is not going into a nice place, but I failed to see how he would want to kill more people and discuss it with Kaladin?

Okay, you've convinced me. I was wrong and you are right. Probably. At the very least, you convinced me that you are more right. I still want to see a fight between Kaladin and Adolin.

[Natanaj he/him]

He is a psychopath, in my opinion. He killed a man, destroyed the evidence, then went and put his arm around Shallan like nothing happened. I got the sense that he enjoyed the killing. I might be wrong, but Adolin will never be a Radiant, this murder wouldn't "destroy" him, and he will kill again. He might face Kaladin at one point as Kaladin tries to defend the man Adolin would kill. That'd be cool. I'd love to see that fight.

He killed a man who tried to have him and his father killed though. He killed a monster who openly admitted he was going to destroy everything. You call that psycopathy? I call that justice.

[Guest]

Okay, you've convinced me. I was wrong and you are right. Probably. At the very least, you convinced me that you are more right. I still want to see a fight between Kaladin and Adolin.

 

Hey, it could still happened... Think of a quite unhinged Adolin finding out about Kaladin and Shallan "cozy time" in the chasm bursting on Kaladin and losing it on him. Could even make a nice "breaking point".

[RawToast225 he/him]

He killed a man who tried to have him and his father killed though. He killed a monster who openly admitted he was going to destroy everything. You call that psycopathy? I call that justice.

Life before death, Natanaj. Life before death is better than justice. Forgiveness is better than justice.

Hey, it could still happened... Think of a quite unhinged Adolin finding out about Kaladin and Shallan "cozy time" in the chasm bursting on Kaladin and losing it on him. Could even make a nice "breaking point".

Haha, true! Good thinking, maxal!

Edited November 6, 2014 by Moogle
please do not double post

[Twenty@20 he/him]

LOL Kelsier murdered the STUFFING out of people. The one that springs immediately to mind is some drunk noble he killed in an alley, just so he could plant the body near a noble keep. Yeah Kelsier was a straight-up psychopath, I believe we have WoB on this, perhaps an annotation?

Alloy of Law:

Wax draws a parallel at one point to Miles and Kelsier, commenting on how if Miles had been born in the World of Ash, he'd've been a hero. Kelsier-the-psychopath was a hero back then, because that's what the world actually needed. By Alloy of Law, the world was a place where a psycho was a bad guy.

Tread carefully here; there's an entire thread somewhere of people reacting VERY poorly to the idea that you can be a Radiant if you're anything less than a paragon of virtue.

The only reason why lot of people think that Radiants ought to be honourable is because they say oaths which they are expected to keep. Thats an honourable thing. Its no use quoting Kelsier's example in this matter because Scadrians don't have to say oaths to become Mistborn nor their powers can be taken away if they do wrong.

I admit that there is a large spectrum of virtuousness within the orders. Jasnah and her murders in the alley seem to conflict with Radiant oaths. Perhaps when we get to know the Orders in more detail, we can get a clearer idea.

Also I completely agree that all good characters need not become Radiants. It is not a badge or something. The oaths are a means of ensuring that the powers don't fall into wrong hands. At the same time being a Radiant indicates you adhere to the oaths and therefore are honourable.

PS. I feel your comment at the end is in poor taste considering the high standards of this forum.

[Natanaj he/him]

Life before death, Natanaj. Life before death is better than justice. Forgiveness is better than justice.

nobody's arguing against that. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing, but some people just need to storming die.

[RawToast225 he/him]

nobody's arguing against that. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing, but some people just need to storming die.

LIFE before death. "Some people just need to storming die"?!?! How can you say that and say that you don't argue against life before death in the same post?? All life before death, not just the ones you want to keep alive! Go think about this.

[Natanaj he/him]

LIFE before death. "Some people just need to storming die"?!?! How can you say that and say that you don't argue against life before death in the same post?? All life before death, not just the ones you want to keep alive! Go think about this.

Killing Sadeas isnt the same as killing Elkohar. Sadeas is a monster who would have taken a ton of life. So we take his LIFE before he causes a bunch of DEATH.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Life before death, Natanaj. Life before death is better than justice. Forgiveness is better than justice.

Haha, true! Good thinking, maxal!

 

To some people Justice is more important than life, love and liberty. And some times they are right. Adolin may have killed Sadeas in cold blood but the man deserved a dogs death for how he treated others.

The only reason this is going bother Adolin is that he is the one who did it in that alley.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Lord Tavash Shar

[Arondell]

I admit that there is a large spectrum of virtuousness within the orders. Jasnah and her murders in the alley seem to conflict with Radiant oaths. Perhaps when we get to know the Orders in more detail, we can get a clearer idea.

 

 

I'm one of those that didn't see a major conflict with the oaths in Jasnah's actions.  At least not the first oath.  She heard that several people had been assaulted and killed in the alley and local law enforcement had not taken any action.  She decided to check into it herself by posing as an easy mark.  She and Shallan are attacked by four men with murder obviously on their mind.  She kills those men in self defense.  Now you could argue that Jasnahs response was harsh but she didn't initiate the confrontation and based on what information we have it wasn't like those four attackers didn't deserve what they got.  It was in my opinion no more murder then Kaladin killing Szeth was.

[Natanaj he/him]

I'm one of those that didn't see a major conflict with the oaths in Jasnah's actions.  At least not the first oath.  She heard that several people had been assaulted and killed in the alley and local law enforcement had not taken any action.  She decided to check into it herself by posing as an easy mark.  She and Shallan are attacked by four men with murder obviously on their mind.  She kills those men in self defense.  Now you could argue that Jasnahs response was harsh but she didn't initiate the confrontation and based on what information we have it wasn't like those four attackers didn't deserve what they got.  It was in my opinion no more murder then Kaladin killing Szeth was.

This. 

[RawToast225 he/him]

It is situational, but for the most part life before death should be observed. There is a reason it's the same starting oath for all of the orders. When in doubt, the Radiants would fall back on it. In the case of Szeth, he was rightly killed as it was to protect. In the case of the four men in the alley, they might have deserved what they got, but Jasnah shouldn't have been the one to doll out the punishment. In the case of Sadeas, Adolin shouldn't have killed him. Sadeas was terrible. He was going to try to destroy anything he could touch. That still didn't give Adolin ANY right to kill him. Dalinar should have been the one to do this, not his son. Dalinar never would have, but it was his right if it was anyone's. Maybe Kaladin could have done it to protect, but it wasn't for Adolin to do.

There is my opinion. Agree or disagree, I don't much care. Just reason through your opinion.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Jabberwocky42

[Natanaj he/him]

It is situational, but for the most part life before death should be observed. There is a reason it's the same starting oath for all of the orders. When in doubt, the Radiants would fall back on it. In the case of Szeth, he was rightly killed as it was to protect. In the case of the four men in the alley, they might have deserved what they got, but Jasnah shouldn't have been the one to doll out the punishment. In the case of Sadeas, Adolin shouldn't have killed him. Sadeas was terrible. He was going to try to destroy anything he could touch. That still didn't give Adolin ANY right to kill him. Dalinar should have been the one to do this, not his son. Dalinar never would have, but it was his right if it was anyone's. Maybe Kaladin could have done it to protect, but it wasn't for Adolin to do.

There is my opinion. Agree or disagree, I don't much care. Just reason through your opinion.

what about while sadeas was abandoning Dalinar and Adolin to die? Did someone have the right to kill him then?

[RawToast225 he/him]

Dalinar does, like I said.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

I'm one of those that didn't see a major conflict with the oaths in Jasnah's actions. At least not the first oath. She heard that several people had been assaulted and killed in the alley and local law enforcement had not taken any action. She decided to check into it herself by posing as an easy mark. She and Shallan are attacked by four men with murder obviously on their mind. She kills those men in self defense. Now you could argue that Jasnahs response was harsh but she didn't initiate the confrontation and based on what information we have it wasn't like those four attackers didn't deserve what they got. It was in my opinion no more murder then Kaladin killing Szeth was.

Well I thought what Jasnah did alley was vigilantism. That doesn't sit very well with the 'journey before destination' or 'life before death' part. Vigilante justice is usually shortsighted in nature and rarely beings long-term changes. And Radiants are meant to help people, not go about killing them. Killing is supposed to be the last resort when all other options are closed and even then it cannot be condoned. Radiants are so powerful, I feel they should always ere on the side of preserving life than using their powers for killing.

We don't know what are the specific Elsecaller oaths. When we know what oath's Jasnah swore or whether she has to swear any order specific oaths or not, perhaps we can find some justification for Jasnah's action.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Twenty@20