Why does everyone think that having killed Sadeas will destroy Adolin so much?

[Guest]

It's kind of sad actually... Many great characters are hated or considered unimportant/boring by average readers (and I'm not talking only about SA now). Sometimes those are my favourite characters. I talk to somebody and they are all "what? how can you LIKE him/her?". I try to explain how said character is not what he/she seems, but rarely anybody listens. The book said so, so that must be true. Not everybody takes the effort to read bewteen the lines... I'm not saying that everyone must do this, it just seems sad that so many valuable characters are so greatly misunderstood

 

I am sometimes guilty of such thing. There beloved characters I have a hard time understanding or seeing their alleged greatness. The strength of SA, I believe, is to offer such a wide variety of characters you are bound to find a favorite. We are not all attracted to the same characters.

 

 

 

Kaladin and Adolin are in fact too different to compare, on any ground. They both are skilled at fighting - Adolin with a sword, mostly dueling style, Kaladin with a spear, trained more to typical battles with many opponets. They are both smart, Kaladin may be more skilled with words (like when he insulted Adolin who thought it was a compliment in WoR) but Adolin is more emphatetic. They are both educated - Kal in glyphs and medicine, Adolin in politics, leadership, strategy. I hate when somebody claims that one of them is generally better than the other. They are both objectively the same good only it manifests in different ways. Now, I don't mind at all anybody claiming that he/she likes one of them more. That's why every person may have own opinion. But let it stay an opinion, not be claimed as a fact, as some people do (I'm not talking about anyone on this forum of course, but there are people who act like this).

 

I keep asking myself how Kaladin would have turned had he lived in a different family? Suppose for one instant Kaladin was born Kaladin Kohlin... Would he have bothered learning his glyphs? Would he have come up as this knowledgeable or would he have spend his childhood on the training ground much like Adolin did? Kaladin was raised to become a surgeon by a surgeon father, but his heart belonged to soldering. It was quite clear even early on in WoK. Had Kaladin been given the choice between learning the spear or learning surgery, which one would he have chosen?

 

I think Zahel pin-points it quite well in WoR when he calls Kaladin out for making him think of Adolin... Kaladin gets angry at it as he cannot conceive he may have anything in common with the princeling, but he does. Strangely, he does. Had Kaladin lived a different life, he may have turned out being exactly like Adolin. The contrary is not so clear though.

 

 

IBy now, Kaladin has a very obvious and important role in the books. Adolin doesn't, that's why people tend to dismiss him easily. I think Adolin is going to be more important, in fact he already is more vital to the plot than most readers give him credit for As for him being stupid for not knowing glyphs - who in real life expects a doctor to know trigonometric functions? He may know them but it's not neccessary for him so he doesn't have to. Same for Adolin. There is no immidiate need for him to know glyphs - he could, but does he have a reason for that? I don't think so.

 

Kaladin has an important role mostly because he is the main character. He's had the most POV in both books, whereas Adolin was more of a support character in the first book, slowly gaining in importance in the second. I hope his ending in WoR will give him more spotlight into the next book as he is a fun one to read, I think. As for the glyphs, I believe Navani was unfair to call Adolin out on it. I was always under the impression Alethki men were allowed to read glyphs, but they were not encouraged to do so. It is not well viewed upon to spend to much time pursuing academic goal unless you are part of the Ardentia. In this matter, Adolin clearly is a product of his education. Men just do not interest themselves into glyphs. I assumed he must have had some tutoring in the matter, but it is clear he dedicated most of his life first learning the sword and then trailing after Dalinar learning the perks of being a Highprince.

 

 

Oh, I love rambling I'm just afraid that not everyone would like to read it... Anyway, I'd propably ramble some more now, but my roommates remind me that I was supposed to start studying maths some half an hour ago... Time to confront integrals. I think I'd rather meet up with Szeth...

 

Integrals huh? Good old memories I used to love integrals: they made me think of puzzles So what are you studying in?

 

 

It might be that I'm not quite the regular reader of SA, but Kaladin's arc really did did not do it for me in WoR.

 

I agree with your general comment. I was trying to express how I believe the average reader is seeing Kaladin and how Brandon wrote the book to makes us feel this way towards him. This was triggered by Feather really nice depiction of how the murder scene is being read and interpreted.

 

Kaladin went from favorite after WoK to annoyed by in WoR. Many things did not add up for me about Kaladin in WoR, especially in the last 2 parts.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Ya when I talked about Kaladin having witnesses for Szeth's fight, I meant that the fight started among witnesses and with the intention that only one of them was going to survive it.

Ya, you are perhaps right. Under no circumstances, Adolin killing Sadeas outside of a duel would have been justified. But Feather, doesn't it messes up your earlier point that the particular way the scene was written - deserted corridors, Adolin's loss of control, gory description of the death and Adolin destroying evidence - gave the readers the foreboding that Adolin is in trouble? Because rather than the setting of the scene, it was Adolin's departure from Dalinar's ideals (which meant killing Sadeas only in a official duel was justified) that hinted at future troubles for him. I mean there was no way to write the scene and put markers to tell readers that what Adolin's doing is right and honourable.

PS. There is a good chance I misunderstood your initial post. So feel free to correct me.

 

I don't think you misunderstood, it's just that I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. I think that as you said, Adolin killing Sadeas outside fo a duel would always be unjustified. It would have been the wrong choice to make in the storm shelter, it was the wrong choice to make here. Not necessarily because the act itself of killing Sadeas would be wrong, but because of the consequences which will follow and the fact that this was an impulsive moment of uncontrolled weakness for Adolin. He gave into a base urge, and that's going to cost him dearly.

 

So, Brandon, having established that Adolin taking his rage out on Sadeas would always be wrong, sets the scene in a way to emphasize just how wrong it is. He makes sure that every aspect of the way it happened leaves a bad taste in your mouth. The canon facts in and of themselves are then aided by Brandon's presentation of them in order to give the correct impression to the reader.

 

Regarding the ending fight of WoR with Kaladin and Szeth, I'm a little surprised that everyone viewed it entirely as Kaladin being heroic. When I first read through it, I found Kaladin acting... well, not quite heroic. At the end of Way of Kings, Kaladin was this storm of destruction, but he was respectful and thoughtful as he killed the Parshendi, and almost wished he didn't have to. He respected them, and his sole goal was to protect Dalinar.

 

In WoR, however, Kaladin comes across as angry, unreasonable, and arrogant. Here's a few of his lines:

 

"As I now claim your life"? Really? That's something I'd expect a slaver to say, or something.

 

 

"Good"? Where's my hero from WoK, where he mourned the killing he had to do?

 

 

Sure, he has understandable reasons for being angry (lost his bridgemen), but didn't we just spend an entire book learning that maybe hatred is a bad thing on Roshar? At the end of WoK, his response was sadness at the lost bridgemen, not anger at their killers.

 

 

This one should stand on its own as being just a bit questionable as Kaladin shows off some bloodlust.

 

It might be that I'm not quite the regular reader of SA, but Kaladin's arc really did did not do it for me in WoR.

 

Moogle, I can see where you're coming from with this, but I will say that I disagree. For me, this is righteous anger, Kaladin at his utmost of protection thus far as he faces an opponent that unquestionably deserves to die in his eyes. Seeking to kill someone doesn't always equate bloodlust in my eyes, even when the killing is done without regret. To Kaladin, this is justice and in similar vein to the way he acted on the Tower, he is the force standing between those he protects, and a force seeking to harm them.

 

The difference in this case is that Kaladin's relationship with the Parshendi and Kaladin's relationship with Szeth are two wildly different things. To Kaladin, the Parshendi hadn't done anything personally. The only reason he had to kill them was that they were on opposite sides of this particular battlefield. Kaladin wasn't interested in the Vengance Pact and he'd never had those he loved attacked or treated maliciously by Parshendi at all. They were simply enemy soldiers, and as he found while fighting them, enemy soldiers with a high standard of ethics. Therefore, he respected them, and felt some regret at having to kill them. 

 

I want to make that point clear, that Kaladin did not regret killing the Parshendi because killing itself is wrong in his eyes. He regretted killing the Parshendi because they treated him with honor and respect, and he had no personal reason to kill them other than that they were opposing him on the field.

 

Now take Szeth. This is someone who has tried to kill Dalinar and those around him multiple times. This is the person who killed King Gavilar -- and while Kaladin may not really care about one more dead lighteyes, he's certainly not happy about the war taking place in the first place. Szeth is, indirectly, the reason he's there on the Shattered Plains. The reason he had to run bridges at all. Szeth has killed monarchs across the globe and caused chaos through the nations. Kaladin doesn't know about the oathstone, and he doesn't know that Szeth isn't the one pulling the strings on everything that's happening. All he knows is that Szeth is responsible for it.

 

So when Kaladin faces him, he's facing one of the greatest threats to both the safety of the world and the safety of those sworn under his care. And by this point, Szeth's starting to lose it, so rather than the calm and honorable Shin warrior who only kills when he's ordered to, Szeth has started going after targets just for the hell of it, and he's raving madly as he does so. To Kaladin, this is a dangerous madman who has killed hundreds across Roshar and caused chaos in a world on the brink of something terrible, and Kaladin has absolutely no regrets in putting him down.

 

I don't see Kaladin as being gleeful or full of bloodlust here. He doesn't savor killing Szeth or take any especial pleasure in the act, but he's determined and set in his course, and he's bolstered by his belief that this is unquestionably the right thing to do, and filled with a justified anger for those he's lost as he does so.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

I am sometimes guilty of such thing. There beloved characters I have a hard time understanding or seeing their alleged greatness. The strength of SA, I believe, is to offer such a wide variety of characters you are bound to find a favorite. We are not all attracted to the same characters.

 

Actually, I was talking more about the generally disliked or dismissed characters that are actually good/ok but people don't even try to acknowledge it. Being rather cynical towards beloved by all characters is a good thing in my eyes. The problem I see is not giving every character a chance.

 

 

I keep asking myself how Kaladin would have turned had he lived in a different family? Suppose for one instant Kaladin was born Kaladin Kohlin... Would he have bothered learning his glyphs? Would he have come up as this knowledgeable or would he have spend his childhood on the training ground much like Adolin did? Kaladin was raised to become a surgeon by a surgeon father, but his heart belonged to soldering. It was quite clear even early on in WoK. Had Kaladin been given the choice between learning the spear or learning surgery, which one would he have chosen?

 

I think Zahel pin-points it quite well in WoR when he calls Kaladin out for making him think of Adolin... Kaladin gets angry at it as he cannot conceive he may have anything in common with the princeling, but he does. Strangely, he does. Had Kaladin lived a different life, he may have turned out being exactly like Adolin. The contrary is not so clear though.

 

Well, family and culture one grew in is definitely one of the greatest influences on a person. But I think that if Adolin's and Kaladin's lives were switched, they would be exactly like each other. You already explained it for Kaladin, so I'll go for Adolin. We know that he is the kind of person to be the son his father wants him to be. He's a soldier, leader and duelist to make Dalinar proud. He would become a surgeon to make Lirin proud. And if he became a soldier anyway, he would feel like he betrayed his father's trust (as he propably will because of killing Sadeas in a way Dalinar wouldn't approve). The thing about Adolin and Kaladin is that essentially they are very similiar to each other. What divides them is only the fact that they lived different lives. Come on, they could even make a club of protective older brothers

 

 

Integrals huh? Good old memories I used to love integrals: they made me think of puzzles So what are you studying in?

 

I'm studying electronical engineering (I believe that's the right translation to english). Right now, I hate integrals. They never gave us simple examples to train, we just have to do some very hard ones where every result is a big, ugly monster taking half of the line in a notebook (A4)

 

 

...

 

That's more or less what I wanted to say about Moogle's post While I admit that Kaladin's anger was kind of overdone, I think one should take into account that he has just been betrayed by his friend (somehow in his stupidity Kaladin didn't really believe that Moash will do this...) so that also made him angry (at himself, at Moash, Graves, I don't know, but generally angry). He seemed more angry and arrogant in WoR, that goes without saying. But it has been inside him in WoK too, he just had different priorities (saving bridgemen). Now it just resurfaced to a greater extent.

 

And to be sure - I'm not trying to justify him as pure and innocent or prove that he is that great character the "average reader" sees him to be. He isn't. He's flawed, very much so. He gets annoying. He acts like a fool. He's my favourite character but sometimes I feel like whacking him up his head   But then again, the same I sometimes feel towards my real-life friends...

[Guest]

Actually, I was talking more about the generally disliked or dismissed characters that are actually good/ok but people don't even try to acknowledge it. Being rather cynical towards beloved by all characters is a good thing in my eyes. The problem I see is not giving every character a chance.

 

That's what I said, I am guilty of such a thing

 

 

Well, family and culture one grew in is definitely one of the greatest influences on a person. But I think that if Adolin's and Kaladin's lives were switched, they would be exactly like each other. You already explained it for Kaladin, so I'll go for Adolin. We know that he is the kind of person to be the son his father wants him to be. He's a soldier, leader and duelist to make Dalinar proud. He would become a surgeon to make Lirin proud. And if he became a soldier anyway, he would feel like he betrayed his father's trust (as he propably will because of killing Sadeas in a way Dalinar wouldn't approve). The thing about Adolin and Kaladin is that essentially they are very similiar to each other. What divides them is only the fact that they lived different lives. Come on, they could even make a club of protective older brothers

 

Actually, Adolin never wanted to be a soldier unlike Kaladin who dreamed of it. He became one because of the circumstances, not because he chose to. Adolin wanted to become a duelist and I doubt it was because Dalinar wanted him to... I think Adolin was drawn to dueling from a very young age and Dalinar looked favorably on it.

 

I don't know how he would have turned out being Lirin's son, but it is true he does not want to disappoint Dalinar. He wants to follow Dalinar, he wants Dalinar to be right. His relief upon finding the visions were true was palpable. I guess I could see him working really hard to follow his father's dream...

 

However, I think Kaladin may have been happier living Adolin's life then the contrary. He would have been allowed to be what he wanted as opposed to choosing a career mostly to follow his father's morality while not truly believing it.

 

Club of protective big brothers       

 

 

I'm studying electronical engineering (I believe that's the right translation to english). Right now, I hate integrals. They never gave us simple examples to train, we just have to do some very hard ones where every result is a big, ugly monster taking half of the line in a notebook (A4)

 

 

Yep. It is a good translation. I studied electronical engineering as well I would love to tell you those complicated integrals will have a true use in the working place..... but really... they don't That is unless you become a searchers or an IEEE avid publisher. Makes me think of me and my senior colleague the other day... Said I should look at some papers he had on this specific subject. We open the first one: it was full of numbers and integrals... We deemed it was too complicated and moved on to the second paper which had nice pictures and more concrete information :ph34r:

 

 

And to be sure - I'm not trying to justify him as pure and innocent or prove that he is that great character the "average reader" sees him to be. He isn't. He's flawed, very much so. He gets annoying. He acts like a fool. He's my favourite character but sometimes I feel like whacking him up his head   But then again, the same I sometimes feel towards my real-life friends...

 

Do not feel bad for defending your favorite character! I sure do not shy from defending mine

[Kyats Rani she/her]

That's what I said, I am guilty of such a thing

 

I sometimes am too. But if somebody tries to provide me arguments to the contrary, I listen to them and not dismiss them like most people do. It's being unwilling to accept somebody else's arguments what annoys me. If you dislike a character but somebody else likes him/her I think it's the right thing to let them explain why they like said character instead of claiming they're stupid and wrong. At least that's what I think. And you seem to me as willing to discuss the opinions of others' even when you disagree.

 

 

Actually, Adolin never wanted to be a soldier unlike Kaladin who dreamed of it. He became one because of the circumstances, not because he chose to. Adolin wanted to become a duelist and I doubt it was because Dalinar wanted him to... I think Adolin was drawn to dueling from a very young age and Dalinar looked favorably on it.

 

I don't know how he would have turned out being Lirin's son, but it is true he does not want to disappoint Dalinar. He wants to follow Dalinar, he wants Dalinar to be right. His relief upon finding the visions were true was palpable. I guess I could see him working really hard to follow his father's dream...

 

However, I think Kaladin may have been happier living Adolin's life then the contrary. He would have been allowed to be what he wanted as opposed to choosing a career mostly to follow his father's morality while not truly believing it.

 

Club of protective big brothers     

 

I guess you are right, but still I think were their family situations switched they would simply switch palces. Regardless of the fact if Adolin wanted to become a soldier or not, I see him as becoming one to protect his younger brother. And whenever Adolin does something, anything, he does his best in this.

 

If Adolin and Kaladin met in different circumstances, in a place/culture when eye color doesn't matter (like in the modern era), but still having exactly the same personalities and behaviours, I'm 100% sure they would be best friends. The kind of best friends that always bickers, of course

 

For a while I wanted to use over-protective But I don't think anybody can deny they would pull something like this. I only fail at finding other possible members of this club...

 

 

Yep. It is a good translation. I studied electronical engineering as well I would love to tell you those complicated integrals will have a true use in the working place..... but really... they don't That is unless you become a searchers or an IEEE avid publisher. Makes me think of me and my senior colleague the other day... Said I should look at some papers he had on this specific subject. We open the first one: it was full of numbers and integrals... We deemed it was too complicated and moved on to the second paper which had nice pictures and more concrete information :ph34r:

 

Too bad I have nothing to move to... And no pictures But I got some simpler problems form my friend who's studying physics (with answers) so I can train

 

 

Do not feel bad for defending your favorite character! I sure do not shy from defending mine

 

It's not that I feel but for defending my favourite character. But way too many times (not on 17th shard but generally) I saw people who defend their favourites so fiercely that they refuse to see fault in them and blame all other characters or the people who dare to insult the character they like I don't want to be such person. I understand that Kaladin is a flawed character. I like him anyway, even though his flaws do make me want to whack him with a book (WoR prefarably)

[FeatherWriter she/her]

If Adolin and Kaladin met in different circumstances, in a place/culture when eye color doesn't matter (like in the modern era), but still having exactly the same personalities and behaviours, I'm 100% sure they would be best friends. The kind of best friends that always bickers, of course

 

Kyats, I'm not sure if you are planning on reading the Way of Kings Prime chapters that got released in the Altered Perceptions anthology, but I'll tell you that under those circumstances, Adolin (who is named Aredor in that draft) and Kaladin (who is named Merin) are actually very friendly toward each other. As you might know, the first draft of Way of Kings had Kaladin/Merin accepting the Shardblade he won and becoming a Lord. Aredor is the one who introduces him to the court and helps him feel welcome. Aredor does things like take Merin shopping for clothes, helps him find a swordmaster to learn how to use his Plate and Blade, and introduces him to all of the ladies of the court.

 

It's almost... a surreal experience to read about Aredor and Merin being such good friends and liking each other so much, when I'm used to Kaladin and Adolin snarking at each other and bickering back and forth. When you have a version of Kaladin that doesn't have a reason to hate lighteyes or nobles (there aren't eye color differences between nobles and peasants in Way of Kings Prime), lots of things change about his relationships with the Kholin brothers. 

[Guest]

Kyats, I'm not sure if you are planning on reading the Way of Kings Prime chapters that got released in the Altered Perceptions anthology, but I'll tell you that under those circumstances, Adolin (who is named Aredor in that draft) and Kaladin (who is named Merin) are actually very friendly toward each other. As you might know, the first draft of Way of Kings had Kaladin/Merin accepting the Shardblade he won and becoming a Lord. Aredor is the one who introduces him to the court and helps him feel welcome. Aredor does things like take Merin shopping for clothes, helps him find a swordmaster to learn how to use his Plate and Blade, and introduces him to all of the ladies of the court.

 

It's almost... a surreal experience to read about Aredor and Merin being such good friends and liking each other so much, when I'm used to Kaladin and Adolin snarking at each other and bickering back and forth. When you have a version of Kaladin that doesn't have a reason to hate lighteyes or nobles (there aren't eye color differences between nobles and peasants in Way of Kings Prime), lots of things change about his relationships with the Kholin brothers. 

 

Feather, I read your commentary on Way of Kings Prime and I was most intrigued... I cannot wait to get my hands on a copy. There is one particular thing you mentioned I am literally dying to know if it will become cannon.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I'm guessing most of the things in there will not end up being canon, as Brandon withheld most of the chapters that have spoilers, but if I might ask what it was you were interested in?

[Guest]

I'm guessing most of the things in there will not end up being canon, as Brandon withheld most of the chapters that have spoilers, but if I might ask what it was you were interested in?

 

I'll put it in spoilers. The other forumers may not want to know.

 

I was intrigued by Dalinar having a third son... Do you know if he was the oldest, the middle or the youngest child? Ever since I read your commentary, I have been making impossible scenarios in my head I even came up with an unbelievably crazy way to bring it into canon while having no one ever mentioning the third son until now. Changing the Kohlin's boys dynamic by adding a third player may be quite fun actually.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Kyats, I'm not sure if you are planning on reading the Way of Kings Prime chapters that got released in the Altered Perceptions anthology, but I'll tell you that under those circumstances, Adolin (who is named Aredor in that draft) and Kaladin (who is named Merin) are actually very friendly toward each other. As you might know, the first draft of Way of Kings had Kaladin/Merin accepting the Shardblade he won and becoming a Lord. Aredor is the one who introduces him to the court and helps him feel welcome. Aredor does things like take Merin shopping for clothes, helps him find a swordmaster to learn how to use his Plate and Blade, and introduces him to all of the ladies of the court.

 

It's almost... a surreal experience to read about Aredor and Merin being such good friends and liking each other so much, when I'm used to Kaladin and Adolin snarking at each other and bickering back and forth. When you have a version of Kaladin that doesn't have a reason to hate lighteyes or nobles (there aren't eye color differences between nobles and peasants in Way of Kings Prime), lots of things change about his relationships with the Kholin brothers. 

 

Oooh, really? Sounds nice I hope I will be able to get my hands on Altered Perceptions but we will have to see... There's no chance it will be available in print here in Poland (we got WoK just this year and I think we don't have Warbreaker, but not so sure on this) and I don't know if I'll be able to buy e-book... But hopefully As a kind of Polish student that's here called "słoik" (the word słoik means jar - the name comes from the fact that most students bring themselves food in jars from home ) I don't have too much money, but what are godparents and grandmothers for?

 

It's hard for me to imagine Kaladin and Adolin such a good friends. I mean I do believe they will be best friends in the upcoming books, but their snarking and bickering will most definitely remain - that's the best part Clothes shopping? I don't know about Merin but I have a feeling that Kaladin would run as far as he can Introducing to the ladies wouldn't work out too - most of them hate Adolin and throw things at him when he gets too close (like Jenet did)... That swordsmaster, that's Zahel (Vasher), right? Is there Nightblood around too? I just finished Warbreaker and I love Nightblood so I can't wait to see more of him in Stones Unhallowed My roommate can't believe that my favourite character from the book is a sword though

[Fallen Rope he/him]

Their is a summery of WoK prime if you want to see the differences.

http://squirenonny.tumblr.com/post/102573424139/the-way-of-kings-prime-primer

Dalinar's/Dalenar's other son is the eldest.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Fallen Rope

[Guest]

Oooh, really? Sounds nice I hope I will be able to get my hands on Altered Perceptions but we will have to see... There's no chance it will be available in print here in Poland (we got WoK just this year and I think we don't have Warbreaker, but not so sure on this) and I don't know if I'll be able to buy e-book... But hopefully As a kind of Polish student that's here called "słoik" (the word słoik means jar - the name comes from the fact that most students bring themselves food in jars from home ) I don't have too much money, but what are godparents and grandmothers for?

 

Grand-mothers exist for the sole purpose of literally, irrevocably, totally and completely spoil their grand-children. I know that for a fact.

 

 

 

It's hard for me to imagine Kaladin and Adolin such a good friends. I mean I do believe they will be best friends in the upcoming books, but their snarking and bickering will most definitely remain - that's the best part Clothes shopping? I don't know about Merin but I have a feeling that Kaladin would run as far as he can Introducing to the ladies wouldn't work out too - most of them hate Adolin and throw things at him when he gets too close (like Jenet did)... That swordsmaster, that's Zahel (Vasher), right? Is there Nightblood around too? I just finished Warbreaker and I love Nightblood so I can't wait to see more of him in Stones Unhallowed My roommate can't believe that my favourite character from the book is a sword though

 

I adore the idea of Kaladin being forced to go clothes shopping with Adolin.... And you would have Renarin in the background secretly muttering to Kaladin all of the unbelievably ugly fashion mishaps his brother was responsible of, back in Kohlinar when he was allowed to chose his clothing, just for the shake of seeing him completely panic over what he'll end up looking like once the shopping spree is over

 

 

I sometimes am too. But if somebody tries to provide me arguments to the contrary, I listen to them and not dismiss them like most people do. It's being unwilling to accept somebody else's arguments what annoys me. If you dislike a character but somebody else likes him/her I think it's the right thing to let them explain why they like said character instead of claiming they're stupid and wrong. At least that's what I think. And you seem to me as willing to discuss the opinions of others' even when you disagree.

 

I have been accused of the opposite on a few occasions...    I tend to be stubborn, very stubborn about things I strongly feel about. However, I do read in all of the argumentation and some do manage to creep back to the deepest end of my mind... I can change my mind, but the stronger I feel about a thing, the harder it is going to take to make me I don't mind disagreeing with people, disagreeing is the short story of my life anyway

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Their is a summery of WoK prime if you want to see the differences.

http://squirenonny.tumblr.com/post/102573424139/the-way-of-kings-prime-primer

 

Oh, thanks! But still I will try to get the book

 

Grand-mothers exist for the sole purpose of literally, irrevocably, totally and completely spoil their grand-children. I know that for a fact.

 

And stuffing them with food... When I last visited my grandma I could barely lift my backpack full of pierogi (kind of like dumplings but something different), chicken chop, cookies and jars with pickles and jams...

 

 

I adore the idea of Kaladin being forced to go clothes shopping with Adolin.... And you would have Renarin in the background secretly muttering to Kaladin all of the unbelievably ugly fashion mishaps his brother was responsible of, back in Kohlinar when he was allowed to chose his clothing, just for the shake of seeing him completely panic over what he'll end up looking like once the shopping spree is over

 

How did you know...

 

 

I have been accused of the opposite on a few occasions...    I tend to be stubborn, very stubborn about things I strongly feel about. However, I do read in all of the argumentation and some do manage to creep back to the deepest end of my mind... I can change my mind, but the stronger I feel about a thing, the harder it is going to take to make me I don't mind disagreeing with people, disagreeing is the short story of my life anyway

 

I know how it feels But I realized long ago that stubborn but not aggressive people make the best partners in discussion. You should hear how much I "argued" with one of my classmates about everything and neither one of us was willing to admit the other's right... Good memories

[Guest]

Their is a summery of WoK prime if you want to see the differences.

http://squirenonny.tumblr.com/post/102573424139/the-way-of-kings-prime-primer

Dalinar's/Dalenar's other son is the eldest.

 

Oh this is great Thanks.

 

So in this version, Adolin/Aredor grew up as the middle child? Interesting. And big brother was a renowned duelist? Even more interesting. I guess it would be hard to bring it into canon now... unless Dalinar's boon to the Nightwatcher was to remove the memory of his oldest son from everyone's memory and was cursed with forgetting his wife... I will however admit this is quite far-fetched.

 

Sheneres is one very ugly name though   and Adolin sounds much better as Adolin then Aredor

 

 

And stuffing them with food... When I last visited my grandma I could barely lift my backpack full of pierogi (kind of like dumplings but something different), chicken chop, cookies and jars with pickles and jams...

 

Your grandma makes her own pickles? You are lucky: I love pickles :wub:   You know, my mom still gives me food She called the other day: "Maxal, I felt like baking today, so I made 6 cakes This is way too much for me and your father, so I am going to come over and bring you 4 "

 

 

How did you know...

 

I don't know

 

 

I know how it feels But I realized long ago that stubborn but not aggressive people make the best partners in discussion. You should hear how much I "argued" with one of my classmates about everything and neither one of us was willing to admit the other's right... Good memories

 

Unfortunately, not everyone feels this way. In my experience, most people do not like to interface with strong opinionated people.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

WoR Prime Spoilers:

 

He was the oldest son, and his name was Sheneres Kholin. Apparently he was a renowned duelist (Aredor is said to be like his older brother in that regard) and he was killed defending Elhokar's father, King Nalhonarin.

 

EDIT: Didn't realize we'd gone on to page nine! I didn't see any of these posts. Vasher is called Vasher in this story, not Zahel, though he is the same character (though somewhat more kind and welcoming than his canon counterpart). I believe in this version, Vasher is actually Rosharan, especially because Awakening seems to be the dominant magic system here. There's no Stormlight or Surgebinding, no Knights Radiant or Vorinism either. Awakeners create Shardplate and Shardblades, and they've got a really creepy reputation, not like the Awakeners from Nalthis.

 

I think when the Awakening magic system got moved to Nalthis for Warbreaker, Vasher got moved with it, and then somehow Brandon worldhopped him back over to Roshar so that he could play the part that he was always meant to play in Way of Kings.

[Guest]

WoR Prime Spoilers:

 

He was the oldest son, and his name was Sheneres Kholin. Apparently he was a renowned duelist (Aredor is said to be like his older brother in that regard) and he was killed defending Elhokar's father, King Nalhonarin.

.

 

Brandon sure improved his naming skills :ph34r:

[Kyats Rani she/her]

So in this version, Adolin/Aredor grew up as the middle child? Interesting. And big brother was a renowned duelist? Even more interesting. I guess it would be hard to bring it into canon now... unless Dalinar's boon to the Nightwatcher was to remove the memory of his oldest son from everyone's memory and was cursed with forgetting his wife... I will however admit this is quite far-fetched.

 

Sheneres is one very ugly name though   and Adolin sounds much better as Adolin then Aredor

That would be very interesting to see in the canon, but hard to pull out But hey, we are talking about Brandon here, he may just do this and make it sound logical

Adolin growing up as a middle child would be a good explanation of some parts of his mindset. Like the way he cares about Renarin and tries so very hard to be a capable heir to his father - he feels responsible now and tries to take place of the eldest brother. Of course, I'm not trying to say that his current motivations aren't good enough - they are, but in such case there would be more drama.

 

 

Your grandma makes her own pickles? You are lucky: I love pickles :wub:   You know, my mom still gives me food She called the other day: "Maxal, I felt like baking today, so I made 6 cakes This is way too much for me and your father, so I am going to come over and bring you 4 "

She does. Pickles (different kinds of them), jams (cherry, apricot, blackcurrant, redcurrant, and my favourite apple ones), juices (the kind you add water to - mostly raspberry and blackcurrant ones) and many other things And she always says I'm too thin so I got 6 big chops, 36 dumplings and 3 liters of baked beans Not to mention 20 sweet buns with apple and half of a cake You at least have kids to share the cakes with them, I had to eat all of it before it became stale... Let's just say that my roommates love me now enough to forgive my sudden bursts of laughter while reading some things at this forum

 

 

I don't know

Call it a hunch :ph34r:

 

 

Unfortunately, not everyone feels this way. In my experience, most people do not like to interface with strong opinionated people.

But where is the challenge if the one you're talking to doesn't have a strong opinion? I like challenges

 

 

WoR Prime Spoilers:

 

He was the oldest son, and his name was Sheneres Kholin. Apparently he was a renowned duelist (Aredor is said to be like his older brother in that regard) and he was killed defending Elhokar's father, King Nalhonarin.

 

EDIT: Didn't realize we'd gone on to page nine! I didn't see any of these posts. Vasher is called Vasher in this story, not Zahel, though he is the same character (though somewhat more kind and welcoming than his canon counterpart). I believe in this version, Vasher is actually Rosharan, especially because Awakening seems to be the dominant magic system here. There's no Stormlight or Surgebinding, no Knights Radiant or Vorinism either. Awakeners create Shardplate and Shardblades, and they've got a really creepy reputation, not like the Awakeners from Nalthis.

 

I think when the Awakening magic system got moved to Nalthis for Warbreaker, Vasher got moved with it, and then somehow Brandon worldhopped him back over to Roshar so that he could play the part that he was always meant to play in Way of Kings.

Soo, I guess no Nightblood then? Pity, he's cool. Also Vasher-worldhopper from Nalthis is actually an interesting plot point.

 

What is Roshar without Stormlight? And who would Kaladin become when there are no Knights Radiant? Plain simple Shardbearer? Boring...

 

From what I gathered by now (including reading what you wrote in the WoK Prime thread) the Prime version is extremaly boring, but has some fun moments (shopping part or Renarin caught writing). It's good that it improved... But still it seems interesting.

 

 

Brandon sure improved his naming skills :ph34r:

Luckily for all readers. How do you even read some of those?

[Guest]

That would be very interesting to see in the canon, but hard to pull out But hey, we are talking about Brandon here, he may just do this and make it sound logical

Adolin growing up as a middle child would be a good explanation of some parts of his mindset. Like the way he cares about Renarin and tries so very hard to be a capable heir to his father - he feels responsible now and tries to take place of the eldest brother. Of course, I'm not trying to say that his current motivations aren't good enough - they are, but in such case there would be more drama.

 

Except that Adolin does not exhibit the typical behavior of the middle child... Not that these things are firmly settled, but usually the middle child is the forgotten one, the one that lacks attention and therefore either turns rebellious or transform itself into the mediator between the other two. The firstborn usually is the over achiever, the perfectionist, the one to carries out its parents' dreams. I do see that in both Adolin and Kaladin. The first child is more focus whereas the middle one is often more frazzled... So I am unsure... but it would be adorable if little Adolin picked up the sword as young kid to mimic his older brother.

 

More drama is always good... I guess Brandon could pull it off, but it sounds unlikely as of now.

 

 

She does. Pickles (different kinds of them), jams (cherry, apricot, blackcurrant, redcurrant, and my favourite apple ones), juices (the kind you add water to - mostly raspberry and blackcurrant ones) and many other things And she always says I'm too thin so I got 6 big chops, 36 dumplings and 3 liters of baked beans Not to mention 20 sweet buns with apple and half of a cake You at least have kids to share the cakes with them, I had to eat all of it before it became stale... Let's just say that my roommates love me now enough to forgive my sudden bursts of laughter while reading some things at this forum

 

Kids eat an infinitesimal piece of cake while my husband and I eat the rest of it while they are sleeping :ph34r:

 

 

But where is the challenge if the one you're talking to doesn't have a strong opinion? I like challenges

 

Good

 

 

Luckily for all readers. How do you even read some of those?

 

I don't know I am glad Adolin is Adolin now... I agree with Feather: Aredor sounds like the name of a place or of a pine tree... Oh look, there is a majestic Aredor over there, its looming branch are providing shelter for thousand of birds and by its size, it must be over 70 years old....

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Except that Adolin does not exhibit the typical behavior of the middle child... Not that these things are firmly settled, but usually the middle child is the forgotten one, the one that lacks attention and therefore either turns rebellious or transform itself into the mediator between the other two. The firstborn usually is the over achiever, the perfectionist, the one to carries out its parents' dreams. I do see that in both Adolin and Kaladin. The first child is more focus whereas the middle one is often more frazzled... So I am unsure... but it would be adorable if little Adolin picked up the sword as young kid to mimic his older brother.

 

More drama is always good... I guess Brandon could pull it off, but it sounds unlikely as of now.

 

Ok, my view on this can be a bit biased as I'm an only child... Who likes solitude and never wanted to have any siblings :ph34r:

Unless it had to do with Dalinar's boon/bane adventure... Maybe he wanted the whole world to forget about his eldest son to protect Adolin from always being compared to his elder especially when he was gone? And he forgot his wife as a bane...

 

 

I don't know I am glad Adolin is Adolin now... I agree with Feather: Aredor sounds like the name of a place or of a pine tree... Oh look, there is a majestic Aredor over there, its looming branch are providing shelter for thousand of birds and by its size, it must be over 70 years old....

 

Upvote if only for the pine tree part It made my day considering I still have a physics exam and a very hard laboratory before me today...

 

I also like Kaladin much more than Merin. I don't know, it just sounds nicer to me. I wonder, though, was the similiarity to a certain name from Warbreaker intentional? I have a feeling that Nightblood might find it funny if they ever meet...

[Guest]

Ok, my view on this can be a bit biased as I'm an only child... Who likes solitude and never wanted to have any siblings :ph34r:

Unless it had to do with Dalinar's boon/bane adventure... Maybe he wanted the whole world to forget about his eldest son to protect Adolin from always being compared to his elder especially when he was gone? And he forgot his wife as a bane...

 

As I said, this is far from being an exact science. I am the younger child and whereas it is true my parents were not as strict with me as with my sister, I still remain the over-achiever between the two. However, some of Adolin's behaviors can too easily be linked to that of an older child to dismiss it entirely.

 

 

Hey I wrote that a few posts back. You cannot steel my idea

 

 

I also like Kaladin much more than Merin. I don't know, it just sounds nicer to me. I wonder, though, was the similiarity to a certain name from Warbreaker intentional? I have a feeling that Nightblood might find it funny if they ever meet...

 

OK. Merin makes me think of Robin Hood and the Merry Men In my head, he is wearing red tights, playing the piper and dancing around with a bow and not a spear. And do not get me started on Sheneres and Dalinar's brother's name which I can't pronounced.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

As I said, this is far from being an exact science. I am the younger child and whereas it is true my parents were not as strict with me as with my sister, I still remain the over-achiever between the two. However, some of Adolin's behaviors can too easily be linked to that of an older child to dismiss it entirely.

 

 

Hey I wrote that a few posts back. You cannot steel my idea

 

Sorry I must've missed that. But hey, that must be a good idea if we both had it My dad tends to say: "great brains think similarly"

 

 

OK. Merin makes me think of Robin Hood and the Merry Men In my head, he is wearing red tights, playing the piper and dancing around with a bow and not a spear. And do not get me started on Sheneres and Dalinar's brother's name which I can't pronounced.

 

Ok, you got me at the red tights And I imagined Adolin's (not Aredor, Adolin) reaction to this... He would have something to laugh about for the enxt 50 years

[Guest]

Sorry I must've missed that. But hey, that must be a good idea if we both had it My dad tends to say: "great brains think similarly"

 

Actually, I was watching Once Upon a Time when I came up with it... They sort of did the same thing... The girl had an entire kingdom forget the existence of her two dead sisters such as to avoid it crumbling on that truth.

 

I was thinking a way to introduce an older Kohlin sibling could be to make him be involved in Shshshsh death's... Perhaps it is she died violently and Sheneres (please use another name Brandon if you ever go forward with this as canon) died defending her or something along those lines. Dalinar then saw fit to erase the memory of his older son to protect the younger ones, as a curse he forgot his wife. Could be a fun twist.

 

 

Ok, you got me at the red tights And I imagined Adolin's (not Aredor, Adolin) reaction to this... He would have something to laugh about for the enxt 50 years

 

I imagine Kaladin trashing his clothes somehow and being forced to wear the only available thing: red tights.

 

Adolin: "Wait... Are these..."

Kaladin: "Shut up".

Adolin: "Are you really wearing..."

Kaladin: "I said, shut up".

Adolin: "But these are..."

Kaladin: "Shut up princeling"

Adolin: "A bridgeboy in red tights.... I never thought I would ever get to see that..."

Kaladin: "What part of shut up do you not understand princeling."

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Actually, I was watching Once Upon a Time when I came up with it... They sort of did the same thing... The girl had an entire kingdom forget the existence of her two dead sisters such as to avoid it crumbling on that truth.

 

I was thinking a way to introduce an older Kohlin sibling could be to make him be involved in Shshshsh death's... Perhaps it is she died violently and Sheneres (please use another name Brandon if you ever go forward with this as canon) died defending her or something along those lines. Dalinar then saw fit to erase the memory of his older son to protect the younger ones, as a curse he forgot his wife. Could be a fun twist.

 

I've never watched Once Upon a Time, that idea just made sense to me... And while it would be a very interesting plot twist I also hope for a change in the name By the way, maybe Renarin would somehow find out, being Truthwatcher and all... He could realize that Dalinar forgot Shshshsh, connect it to the Nightwatcher and try to learn more about it...

 

 

I imagine Kaladin trashing his clothes somehow and being forced to wear the only available thing: red tights.

 

Adolin: "Wait... Are these..."

Kaladin: "Shut up".

Adolin: "Are you really wearing..."

Kaladin: "I said, shut up".

Adolin: "But these are..."

Kaladin: "Shut up princeling"

Adolin: "A bridgeboy in red tights.... I never thought I would ever get to see that..."

Kaladin: "What part of shut up do you not understand princeling."

 

Apparently the part about not talking

 

That's hilarious And why do I have the feeling that Hoid was the one who made sure only red tights were available? Or at least Shallan...

[FeatherWriter she/her]

This reminds me a little bit of the time when I was feeling down and one of my friends decided to make a really cute headcanon about Renarin braiding Shallan's hair with flowers, and... it kind of spiraled onward from there. 

 

Friend: 

imagine gardener!renarin french braiding shallan's hair when she comes back to urithiru and tucking in flowers without telling her ahead of time - grown specially for that purpose in a color scheme to compliment her hair and eyes.

FeatherWriter:
goodbye friends go on without me I will die happily here huddled around this message while slowly melting from happiness thanks

Friend: 
shallan relaxes and leans back into renarin while he's braiding her hair and he has to gently scold her because that makes it harder to braid but before she can sit up again he kisses the top of her head.

FeatherWriter: 

*puddle of completely melted Feather begins bubbling happily*
…Pattern sticking himself to Renarin’s sleeve and quietly helping him figure out different kinds of braid designs.

…Shallan lamenting that Renarin’s hair is too short to properly braid.

…Both of them agreeing that if Kaladin’s going to keep his hair that long, the two of them are going to end up braiding it one of these days.

Friend: 

My life mission is to break my friends. KALADIN W/ PIGTAILS??? Lopsided pigtails because they each braided one side? Plz.

FeatherWriter:

Just imagine Adolin snickering when he sees Kaladin with flowers in his lopsided pigtail braids and Kaladin just giving him the straightest, flattest look as he asks, “Is there a problem, princeling?”

And Adolin’s trying to keep it together but Kaladin looks so adorably ridicuous and he can’t help it. “What in storms name happened to you, bridgeboy?”

"You can go talk to your fiancée and your brother if you want an answer to that question."

"I can’t believe you let them do that to you. Fearsome Knight Radiant Kaladin Stormblessed, leader of Bridge 4 and captain of the Kholin guard. With flowery braided pigtails."

"Laugh all you like, but they’re weaving a crown for you too and I’d like to see you try to say ‘no’ to either of them, much less both of them at the same time. Your little brother and your girlfriend? Both of whom are Radiant Shardbearers? Face it, Kholin. You are going to get be-flowered and there is nothing you can do about it. Might as well learn to like it.”

"…oh damnation.”

 

And then Silver, because Silver is amazing, drew Kaladin with flowery pigtails, and then Adolin getting flower-crowned by his brother and fiancée.

 

 

[Kyats Rani she/her]

...

 

Feather, you and your friend rock Totally...