Unified Roshar vs Unified Scadrial

[Detective Avalon]

A unified Roshar (Stormlight Archives) post, Wind and Truth, vs. a unified Scadrial post, Era 2, Mistborn. Assume the shards Retribution and Harmony can't directly interfere. Assume each planet has a perpendicularity they can use to reach each other's planet. Also, Roshar doesn't have time dilation. Unified means they won't backstab each other for the other side, but not necessarily all loyal to their side. The shards can give help, but they can't be direct; we can change conditions if necessary. Both sides can reach their perpendicularity easily, and they can't use it to go to the Cognitive Realm.  Who would likely be in the better position short-term, mid-term, and long-term? 

[The Great Wyver She/Her]

Personally, I think short-term Scadrial will win because they have, y'know, modern tech and stuff. And also since Stormlight can't get transported of Roshar, Radiants would probably have trouble attacking Scadrial if they theoretically could. If Retribution let Stormlight go to Scadrial, it would still be a limited-supply and probably wouldn't last too long, and spren will probably have to stay behind on Roshar, weakening the Radiants' power in a mid-or-long-term fight. And you also have Twinborn like Miles (I think that was his name? The main villian of tAoL?) who are virtually impossible to beat. And considering you got Thaidakar/Kelsier there too, who leads a VERY dangerous group of people who live IN Roshar, well, that's not a very good matchup. All in all though I think Scadrial wins in all short/mid/long terms.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in any of this or missed some stuff.

[Argenti he/him]

31 minutes ago, The Great Wyver said:

Personally, I think short-term Scadrial will win because they have, y'know, modern tech and stuff. And also since Stormlight can't get transported of Roshar, Radiants would probably have trouble attacking Scadrial if they theoretically could. If Retribution let Stormlight go to Scadrial, it would still be a limited-supply and probably wouldn't last too long, and spren will probably have to stay behind on Roshar, weakening the Radiants' power in a mid-or-long-term fight. And you also have Twinborn like Miles (I think that was his name? The main villian of tAoL?) who are virtually impossible to beat. And considering you got Thaidakar/Kelsier there too, who leads a VERY dangerous group of people who live IN Roshar, well, that's not a very good matchup. All in all though I think Scadrial wins in all short/mid/long terms.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in any of this or missed some stuff.

Stormlight can go off roshar now, no problem.

As can spren. We see them leave.

Frankly miles' gold reserves could be burned through with a shardblade very easily. Gold isn't very good at healing spiritual wounds.

[coolsnow7]

I hate to be a party ruiner, but it’s fully impossible to even guess, because we don’t know what technological developments will take place with each planet’s magic systems.

[Ink and Embers Any pronouns]

Can I say unified Sel? Unless they've undergone another catastrophe since Elantris, they seem to have had far fewer periods of technological suppression than Scadrial (Lord Ruler) and Roshar (Desolations). If they all stop accusing each other of heresy, they have some versatile magic systems and more time to develop them than elsewhere we've seen

[DoctaDajman]

I give it to the side with trellium bombs and guns. 

You really have 2 very different groups of folks. The basic Rosharan soldier stands no chance against the typical Scadrian, but the average magic user from Roshar is far stronger than the average metalborn.  

And if the ghostbloods ever crack the secret to using stormlight as investiture then whats stopping all metalborn from becoming natural leeches by breathing in stormlight carried by the radiants? Zahel figured it out. And that is exactly why the ghostbloods were there. Stormlight being portable is just as adventageous to anyone who knows how to breath it in as it is to the radiants who may carry it.

Aluminum bullets and leeching cubes play a large role here as well. 

None of that is to mention that Roshar would be stepping onto a planet with 143% the amount of gravity they are used to and 70% the oxygen they are used to breathing. Their bodies would literally revolt against them as they enter the different physical world. Meanwhile if Scadrians showed up on Roshar they would find themselves suddenly stronger than what they have ever needed to be before and they would all be getting the equivalent of 4lpm of supplemental oxygen difference in what they are breathing. 

Rosharans coming to scadrial turns a well trained soldier into a geriatric COPD patient.  Scadrians invading Roshar turn from a well trained soldier into a blood doping Captain America. 

Plus Scadrial has guns and bombs and leeching. 

The only edge Roshar has in this conflict is that the Tower exists and an invading force can never truly destroy them (although I think we can see what could happen by simply trapping their magic users and making them obsolete). 

A unified Scadrial would also mean that Kelsier, who is not a shard, would probably give up the secret to making more.bands of mourning. Then you would end up with blood doping super soldiers who have limited fullborn abilities which ends really bad. 

However there is always the answer "elsecaller waves hand and soulcasts a block of aluminum over everyone's head" or "bondsmith opens a connection between the army of fullborn and their metalminds draining all investiture instantly".  But they still have bombs and guns. 

Side question: 

Can a bomb destroy a perpendiculatiry?  

[Nitpicking]

Post Wind and Truth, the Roshar contingent could bring along some Supressor fabrials that stop all the metallic arts. It would be a natural development from the ones that stop all Radiant Surgebinding (but not Honorblades) like the one Moash uses.

[DoctaDajman]

7 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Post Wind and Truth, the Roshar contingent could bring along some Supressor fabrials that stop all the metallic arts. It would be a natural development from the ones that stop all Radiant Surgebinding (but not Honorblades) like the one Moash uses.

I am unsure how much information the ghostbloods got about suppressor fabrials. I think that is just one more thing that Scadrial has as far as a leg up... intel. A ton of it.  

If only there was a fabrial to suppress the long ranged weaponry of the metalborn. When you have spearmen with 7ft long pointy sticks running headlong into a camp of rifleman who are capable of ending them from 300+ yards... suppressing the metallic arts isn't going to do a whole lot to help you. 

A bit like the movie The Last Samuri. Scadrial sets up a few rotary guns and the only hope your army has is the radiants.

So really Roshar has a small handful of magically armored personnel to try to take on a planets worth of firepower and magic users. 

And it is totally possible that Kelsier has gathered the intel needed to know about anti lights. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

11 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Post Wind and Truth, the Roshar contingent could bring along some Supressor fabrials that stop all the metallic arts. It would be a natural development from the ones that stop all Radiant Surgebinding (but not Honorblades) like the one Moash uses.

3 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

If only there was a fabrial to suppress the long ranged weaponry of the metalborn.

Wouldn't Harmonium-enhanced Leechers or aluminum Gnats function very similarly?

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/470-the-dusty-wheel-show/#e14829

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

I suppose they'd have to figure out how to make it target Surgebinders only, but still, a pistol to a temporarily non-Invested Radiant's head while your Pewterarm is just a normal person should be plenty worth it.

You might even argue the advantage goes to Scadrial in this regard then, as it (to me at least) seems easier to create a primer cube and slap it in an Allomancer's hands than to find and capture whatever "rare" Spren power suppressor Fabrials require.

Guess we need more solid info to actually determine that, but that's my hunch at least.

Edited October 4, 2025 by Trusk'our

[DoctaDajman]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Wouldn't Harmonium-enhanced Leechers or aluminum Gnats function very similarly?

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/470-the-dusty-wheel-show/#e14829

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

I suppose they'd have to figure out how to make it target Surgebinders only, but still, a pistol to a temporarily non-Invested Radiant's head while your Pewterarm is just a normal person should be plenty worth it.

You might even argue the advantage goes to Scadrial in this regard then, as it (to me at least) seems easier to create a primer cube and slap it in an Allomancer's hands than to find and capture whatever "rare" Spren power suppressor Fabrials require.

Guess we need more solid info to actually determine that, but that's my hunch at least.

I guess my meaning was that suppressor fabrials would not do anything against the weapons of Scadrial. I do think that primer cubes are a huge issue for anyone fighting Scadrial to overcome. Roshar is just learning about anti investitue and parts of Scadrial have known about it since aluminum became a thing. Harmonium cubes plus a leecher or aluminum gnat are worth a lot. I think the trick will be programming the cubes to pulse in a way. Every 1 second for 30 seconds wipe everyones investiture. I even believe there is something about how radiants cant summon shardblades when being leeched. If something like that could be rigged to short circuit the shardplate of a radiant it would be all over. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I guess my meaning was that suppressor fabrials would not do anything against the weapons of Scadrial. I do think that primer cubes are a huge issue for anyone fighting Scadrial to overcome. 

Ah, yeah. It would be pretty hard to counter those with something like Surgebinding.

8 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I even believe there is something about how radiants cant summon shardblades when being leeched. If something like that could be rigged to short circuit the shardplate of a radiant it would be all over. 

True. That could prove pretty powerful, especially if you catch a Radiant off guard.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120-warsaw-signing/#e1899

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Leecher was holding a Shardbearer and burning [chromium], would the Shardbearer be able to summon their Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

 

[DoctaDajman]

8 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Ah, yeah. It would be pretty hard to counter those with something like Surgebinding.

True. That could prove pretty powerful, especially if you catch a Radiant off guard.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120-warsaw-signing/#e1899

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Leecher was holding a Shardbearer and burning [chromium], would the Shardbearer be able to summon their Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

 

I always think of the enhancement metals as being single use bursts. But the metalborn doesnt really burn through those metals instantly (aluminum perhaps). So a primer cube with minutes and minutes of burning chromium being tossed probably would continuously leech for that same time right? We didn't see Wax try to drink down more steel but I imagine a primer cube could wipe reserves as often as the enemy tried to breath or ingest more fuel right? 

What do you suppose happens to the stormlight in a sack full of gems if a leecher were to burn chromium while touching them? Knowing that primer cubes removes the touch requirement. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 minute ago, DoctaDajman said:

I always think of the enhancement metals as being single use bursts. But the metalborn doesnt really burn through those metals instantly (aluminum perhaps). So a primer cube with minutes and minutes of burning chromium being tossed probably would continuously leech for that same time right? We didn't see Wax try to drink down more steel but I imagine a primer cube could wipe reserves as often as the enemy tried to breath or ingest more fuel right? 

Chromium isn't instantaneous either being burned or draining a target, and the more Invested they are the longer it takes, with Compounders potentially taking several seconds to fully Leech.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101-conquest-46/#e881

Kaymyth (paraphrased)

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

I imagine that Radiants, Fused, and other highly Invested Rosharans would take more effort to Leech than a most Metalborn, so you'd probably have to crank up Leeching cubes to compensate.

Also, yes, chromium shouldn't have to be done in a burst, it's just generally more convenient and efficient to do that when dealing with what Leechers typically handle.

9 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

What do you suppose happens to the stormlight in a sack full of gems if a leecher were to burn chromium while touching them? Knowing that primer cubes removes the touch requirement. 

It depends a bit on whether it counts as being kinetic. Metalminds don't seem to be vulnerable unless tapped, so maybe gemstones are the same.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479-dragonsteel-mini-con-2021/#e15240

Questioner

Nicrosil and chromium, do those have any interaction with people using Feruchemy, or other Investiture in general? Leechers or Nicrobursts.

Brandon Sanderson

Could you use those on Feruchemists? You should be able to, yes.

Questioner

Would that only work while they're tapping it?

Brandon Sanderson

If it's active Investiture, probably yes. You'd probably need it to be kinetic Investiture in order for them to do anything about it.

Personally, I think the Leeching would probably drain them like it would a Surgebinder, pushing the Investiture back into the SR until another Highstorm, Bondsmith, or Blade/Plate/Spren draws it back since it's already trying to escape there. It might just not be instantaneous, but more comparable to a very quick "leaking" that is normally seen in infused gemstones due to the amount present.

[therunner he/him]

Rosharan side has already destroyed one planet, they have a leg up on mass destruction capabilities.

With the setup given: 
 

• Mobility: Roshar dominates there. They have easy access to CR, and can use that to move soldiers faster. Plus Windrunners provide mobility that Scadrial won't match for years yet.
• Long range: Scadrial has advantage there, with early rocketry (though how replicable they are is open question, as Set required active assistance of a Shard, and didn't actually understand what they were doing) and with cannons and guns. Though all of these will have to leverage aluminum ammunition, as otherwise simple atractor fabrials would render them useless. Against Fused/Radiants/Shardbearers guns are also not as useful. (Plate especially helps a lot).
• Short range: Roshar dominates. They are used to this type of warfare, and unlike Scadrial have a lot of practice in war.
• WMD: Scadrial might have some Trellium-Harmonium bombs, but they require a lot of energy to opperate (i.e. large electricity generators) so cannot be used in rockets. On the other hand, Light-anti-light reaction is not necessarily as explosive, unless in large gems. But Surges are becoming unbound, and those already destroyed one planet. So I'd give a bit of advantage to Roshar.
• Investiture: Roshar, and it is not even close. Just baseline healing is important. And while leeching cubes could be useful, grenades like that seems to be quite rare, and you need leecher. Plus they would likely be blocked by suppressor fabrials.
• Personel: We know that Roshar is the second most populous planet, so likely even Unified Scadrial has fewer people available. Add to that Singers quicker maturation rate, and Roshar is more suitable for waging wars. Plus they have immortal Fused and Heralds, Nale and Kaladin alone would be utter nightmare for Scadrians, what with their Atium-lite abilities.

Short-term and mid-term Roshar has advantage, Scadrial would have to build up a lot of industrial capacity, but that can be easily destroyed by Windrunners or Heavenly Ones, as Scadrial has no way of detecting them or stopping them. That, plus Rosharan access to CR via their native powers gives them a lot of advantages in logistic, and options to hurt Scadrial logistics which Scadrial has little ways of defending against.

If Scadrial survives, then long-term they might have an edge? It would depend on how easy it is to develop regular science, vs Rosharan magi-tech (as they would not be just standing around).

 

Also, from Doylist angle: I would say Roshar would likely dominate, and that is why Roshar right now sits in time out, the rest of Cosmere has to catch up to their martial potential.

Edited October 5, 2025 by therunner

[Qianweilian He/him]

On 10/2/2025 at 7:13 PM, Detective Avalon said:

Assume each planet has a perpendicularity they can use to reach each other's planet.

On 10/2/2025 at 7:13 PM, Detective Avalon said:

Both sides can reach their perpendicularity easily, and they can't use it to go to the Cognitive Realm.

Which one is it? These are kind of contradictory. I will assume that they can use the perpendicularities as PoV characters in the books do in my response.

On 10/2/2025 at 7:13 PM, Detective Avalon said:

The shards can give help, but they can't be direct

What exactly does this mean? If Retribution can directly give Radiants stormlight or help them divide Warlight, that changes the entire calculus.

I'll go through Rosharan and then Scadrian capabilities:

Roshar

Without Retribution's help, only the corrupted radiants will have any power that they can actually use and most of them are locked in Urithiru, which they would require Retribution's aid to leave. Without the oathgates, Narak will become a chokepoint for Shadesmar access, being both defensible, but probably also hard to send the armies of an entire planet through. However, mention of armies gets us to another point. Without Retribution's help (again), soulcasters are unavailable. This presents a serious issue as the number of Fused and corrupt Radiants able to soulcast will be limited, only allowing a fairly small force of Rosharans to get anywhere after leaving the planet. As seen in the map I attached (from Arcanum Unbounded), Roshar and Scadrial are not incredibly close, likely requiring a large amount of light and resources to get across what is essentially uncharted CR. Food especially, will spoil and most of Roshar is covered with endless rain, making food growth difficult.

Defensively however, is an entirely different game. Fused, radiants, and spren can all make the journey into the Rosharan subastral extremely difficult for the Scadrians. The only access into the Physical is through Narak and the Shattered Plains, an easily fortified region. The Scadrians also lack any ability to shift realms except at perpendicularities.

Scadrial

Similar to Roshar, but much more extreme, I believe with confidence that Scadrial will win a defensive conflict. As before discussed, Scadrial is unlikely to see much of a force at all, but in the worst case scenario, all of Roshar's armies, they would be well prepared due to warning from kandra. Innovations like automatic weapons, steam engines, airships, and a lack of reliance on outside investiture makes the Scadrian troops an incredibly effective and mobile force on their home world. While individual Fused and Elsecallers could pose issues if they enter the Physical Realm outside of the only perpendicularity, which is controlled by the Malwish, they could be taken down fairly quickly. At the perpendicularity, explosives and firearms will destroy most who exit said perpendicularity, even radiants will likely run out of stormlight fairly quickly. Note: I have excluded the heralds from this, as they are actually on Braize, not Roshar after WaT, but their presence in an invasion puts a successful invasion within the realm of narrative plausibility, although I still think the Scadrians would win.

Scadrial would do much better invading Roshar than vice versa. While I've mentioned the Rosharan defense, Scadrial has other tools. These include the kandra, Ghostbloods, machinery, and aluminum. Both the kandra and Ghostbloods have a high possibility of presenting the Scadrians with weaknesses in Rosharan defenses, exploting those weaknesses, and perhaps securing small strike forces' entry into Roshar. Machinery, like flight and motors, allows the Scadrians to cross Shadesmar much more effectively and swiftly, even if they are hampered by Rosharans on the way. Aluminum, which Scadrial is on the verge of discovering how to get through electrolysis, allows the Scadrians to store food through cans and protect against surgebinding. They don't rely on outside investiture, allowing them to be much more self-sufficient than Rosharans, both on Roshar and going towards it. Harmonium-trellium bombs present the possibility of Ghostblood/kandra spies destroying whatever fortress conceived at Narak, allowing free entry for the Scadrians. Once they figure out how to get lerasium and atium, they could create fullborn, which everyone in this community knows are op, to further their advance.

Spoiler

Yoitsthew

Would a lerasium/atium alloy create a Feruchemist, rather than an atium misting?? What with the way that it’s an alloy of god metals, and the way that lerasium can be used to acquire other magics? As far as I know there is no lerasium left currently, so this one is also just for my curiosity!!

Brandon Sanderson

You can use the god metals from Scadrial to make a Feruchemist, but I have to RAFO the actual means.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 30, 2020)

However, much of these Scadrian offensive is hypothetical. While it is plausible that they could get it together, the short-term and probable mid-term is the maintenance of the status-quo, as neither planet has developed offensive power. Long-term, Roshar will probably develop their offensive and defensive capability beyond what is mentioned and Scadrial will too. Of the two planets, I think Scadrial is more likely to find allies, but not too many. Roshar's real, as of right now, capability is incredibly powerful, so I like Brandon's decision to put them in time-warp time-out so everyone else can catch up.

 

[WordOfBrandon]

So the first thing that's worth mentioning is that Kelsier is in the know about Roshar's capabilities, and at the end of TLM he's has very low confidence in Scadrial's capabilities.

9 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

While individual Fused and Elsecallers could pose issues if they enter the Physical Realm outside of the only perpendicularity, which is controlled by the Malwish, they could be taken down fairly quickly.

What if Roshar starts out by sending Thunderclasts or Unmade?  What if they send the Thrill or Sja-Anat?  What if windrunners fly through and hide before they can be killed?  What if deepest ones move through the ground as soon as they get out?  Roshar's magic is so OP that I don't think guns alone can deal with these scenarios.

9 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

even radiants will likely run out of stormlight fairly quickly.

Why wouldn't Roshar send fused first?  They don't run out easily and if they die after causing mayhem then the will just be reborn.  Is the perfect way to scout an enemy force first.

9 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Aluminum, which Scadrial is on the verge of discovering how to get through electrolysis

Scadrial would still have to mass produce all of this aluminum.  Meanwhile the coppermind says that Aluminum can be soulcast.  Also the books have several examples of Rosharans using logs of Aluminum (Adolin getting trapped at the end of WaT, Zahel getting tortured in a full aluminum room, Sheets of aluminum in Kholinar, and Taravangian's half-shards are speculated to be aluminum).  So Rosharans are also good with Aluminum

9 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Harmonium-trellium bombs present the possibility of Ghostblood/kandra spies destroying whatever fortress conceived at Narak

Where are they going to get the extra trellium?  Nuking an encampment isn't the answer to all problems.  You also have to transport this device, and get it across the cosmere, so why would this be easy for Scadrial.  If anything Rosharans are closer to creating deadly explosives they understand how to create anti-investiture and know what happens when it mixes with normal investiture.  They could create opposing gemstones and throw them like grenades, or drop them from airships.

9 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Once they figure out how to get lerasium and atium, they could create fullborn

First off they can't easily get lerasium or atium.  The other problem with theoretical situations like these is that the Rosharans also have things they could do to be better

They could make human fused like Ishar did in WaT get those rare gemstones that hold crazy amounts of stormlight, learn how to make soulcaster for everyone, create devices that shut down metalborn powers (in theory), use Dai-Gonarthis to make a perpendicularity behind enemy lines.  My point is that once we speculate about potential for both sides the options are a bit much.

[Qianweilian He/him]

8 hours ago, WordOfBrandon said:

What if Roshar starts out by sending Thunderclasts or Unmade?  What if they send the Thrill or Sja-Anat?  What if windrunners fly through and hide before they can be killed? 

What I meant is these are the characters that could directly enter the Physical realm outside the perpendicularity. I didn't think of Deepest Ones though, that could pose an issue. 

8 hours ago, WordOfBrandon said:

They don't run out easily and if they die after causing mayhem then the will just be reborn. 

I was planning for the Scadrians to use explosives like dynamite and automatic weapons, which I suspect will take a lot to heal. Also, they have to go back to Roshar in any case to come back.

8 hours ago, WordOfBrandon said:

Where are they going to get the extra trellium

It's mentioned at the end of TLM that they have a small stockpile.

8 hours ago, WordOfBrandon said:

If anything Rosharans are closer to creating deadly explosives

I would agree, but Scadrial will likely produce their bombs faster as they actually have an industrial base.

8 hours ago, WordOfBrandon said:

First off they can't easily get lerasium or atium.

That was mostly just me theorycrafting. If Brandon ever brings fullborn back (other than a potential TLR novella of something), they're probably going to be nerfed hard. 

8 hours ago, WordOfBrandon said:

use Dai-Gonarthis to make a perpendicularity behind enemy lines.

Not going to lie, totally forgot about him.

8 hours ago, WordOfBrandon said:

My point is that once we speculate about potential for both sides the options are a bit much.

I agree, which is why I think that...

18 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

the short-term and probable mid-term is the maintenance of the status-quo

[Detective Avalon]

Is Roshar not simply capable of stealing designs of Scadrial tech and using Terris programs from Lord Ruler on allomancers and feurchmists, cause they are almost guaranteed to capture those. Also when I say unified I mean the factions associated with that planet won't go to the other side, so no Nahel bonds for Scadrial. I will say that both sides have a stable perpendicularity that can be used for travel to the CR all remaining perpendicularity can be used. The new stable one is accessible to Roshar is near Urithiru and The Scadrial one is near the Elendel Basin. Location of the new perpendicularites can be debated.

Edited October 7, 2025 by Detective Avalon

[Qianweilian He/him]

1 hour ago, Detective Avalon said:

Location of the new perpendicularites can be debated.

We actually have the confirmed location of both. Harmony's is somewhere in the South and controlled by the Malwish; Retribution's is under the Shattered Plains in Narak.

1 hour ago, Detective Avalon said:

Is Roshar not simply capable of stealing designs of Scadrial tech

As we ca see both historically and in BoM, stealing technology is much more complicated than stealing a schematic; even if they can build a prototype, production on the scale needed for an army is something else entirely.

1 hour ago, Detective Avalon said:

using Terris programs from Lord Ruler on allomancers and feurchmists

What exactly do you mean by this? Enforcing breeding programs is a very long term strategy and would require them to control Scadrial already.

I honestly think this topic is an extremely fun exercise, but it has been argued to death every time a new book comes out. My conclusion is that neither planet can likely occupy the other.

Spoiler

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/112876-scadrial-vs-roshar-post-lost-metal/#comment-1406220

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/198555-scadrial-vs-roshar-post-kow/#comment-1825701
https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/53932-roshar-vs-scadrial/#comment-428251

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/95569-why-roshar-should-attack-scadrial-soon-and-therefore-they-probably-will/#comment-1179095

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/87144-scadrial-vs-roshar/#comment-924018
https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/53668-a-war-between-scadrial-era-2-and-roshar/#comment-423108

As a result, I'm probably going to be less involved in this discussion, as it isn't really being very productive.

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, Detective Avalon said:

Is Roshar not simply capable of stealing designs of Scadrial tech and using Terris programs from Lord Ruler on allomancers and feurchmists, cause they are almost guaranteed to capture those. Also when I say unified I mean the factions associated with that planet won't go to the other side, so no Nahel bonds for Scadrial.

Technically, couldn't Scadrian Hemalurgy be used to thieve Surgebinding? 

I feel like if they got into a prolonged conflict that both sides would realistically begin taking on aspects of their foes, be it through spies snatching schematics for Fabrials or Metalmind tech, Spren being spiked or harnessed in new Fabrials, Metalborn mercenaries or immigrants being swayed by Retribution, or rouge Spren bonding Ghostblood agents.

Realistically, I don't think either side would stick purely with their own planetary or cultural resources indefinitely with such a large scale of interaction. There probably wouldn't be enough blurring to make them the same, but still.

[Qianweilian He/him]

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

As a result, I'm probably going to be less involved in this discussion, as it isn't really being very productive.

Oh, turns out I lied. 3 hours is not a great track record.

32 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Technically, couldn't Scadrian Hemalurgy be used to thieve Surgebinding? 

Yes, WoB says it can, although it may be tricky to figure out material+bind point for two spikes. You may need a lot of atium.

Spoiler

Jack Eaton

Can Hemalurgy steal a Nahel bond? And if so, would that bond be unbreakable for as long as the spike was implanted.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a very dangerous and frightening thing in the cosmere, but it is possible--and the implications of it are something I intend to cover eventually in the books.

General Twitter 2018 (May 25, 2018)

Spoiler

Questioner

I was wondering if a bond to a spren, a Nahel bond, may be taken with a Hemalurgic spike.

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible but it's gonna-- Since the spren has free will it's going to be-- Yeah it's going to have weird ramifications but it is a possible thing.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 23, 2017)

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection.

GenCon 2017 (Aug. 17, 2017)

 

35 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Realistically, I don't think either side would stick purely with their own planetary or cultural resources indefinitely with such a large scale of interaction

I agree, but eventually we would break down the premise of unified planets. If the Malwish and the Basin break with each other (imo very likely), then Roshar could probably pull off an invasion. Although Retribution would lose non-Skybreaker and non-Dustbringer radiants, the Scadrians would lose some powers either way (medallions or lots of Metalborn) and half their manpower.