The Sleepless and Timelines

[teknopathetic he/him]

We learn that the Sleepless have already made it to the planet and that they have been there long enough to provide Crystalis with detailed information about the culture. But then we have to wonder, how long have the Sleepless been there? And if they have been there a long time, are they the ones responsible for getting birds offworld? 

Chrysalis says she has cousins-plural on the planet, meaning that there are likely a couple hordes that have made it to the planet. These hordes could have arrived in 4 possible ways:

1. Recently on a Scadrian, Rosharan, or Unknown Ship that arrived fairly recently.
2. With the original migration to the planet with Dusk's Ancestors.
3. Sometime after the original migration (maybe learning of the place from Frost or detecting sentient life)
4. Before any humans made it to the planet (maybe the Well used to be known or perhaps the Sleepless found this place first)

None of these options seem to make much sense to me. If the Sleepless were there for 100s of years, then you would assume that the Sleepless would have either remembered there being a portal on the planet or would have investigated the planet and eventually found the well. If the Sleepless arrived recently, how did they manage to sneak many different hordes onto the planet and learn so much about the culture so quickly AND tell Chrysalis about it? And if they were investigating the trapper culture, surely the Sleepless would have been watching Vathi and Dusk and overheard the location of the well.

Then we have the birds. Somehow these birds have gotten off world. A Sleepless faction using the portal for 100s of years could make sense. The portal itself wasn't guarded, so getting in and out from there would be perfectly fine. As a dawnshard was on Roshar, it would make sense potentially for the Sleepless to be moving over assets that might help protect the dawnshards from discovery. If I were the Sleepless, I would consider using Aviar to help seeing as birds would not draw attention in the Eastern Roshar. 

It is unclear to me when Crystalis talked to her cousins on the planet. Can she talk to her cousins whenever she wants? Can she do it only when in the physical realm? Can she do in the Cognitive realm but only when her cousins are also in the cognitive realm? For some reason I got the impression her communication with her cousins was past-tense, meaning she wasn't able to make contact during the time of out story, but maybe I am wrong about this. If Crysaslis wasn't in direct contact with her cousins during the story, then it seems like she must have learned about the place some time ago and decided not to share the information. 

Anyone else have any thoughts? When do you think the Sleepless arrived, and do you think they are the ones responsible for moving the Aviar to other worlds? But seeing as Aviar need to have the worms ingested, this would mean the birds would need to be moved frequently OR the worms were being cultivated on Roshar as well. 
 

Edited July 14, 2025 by teknopathetic

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

It is unclear to me when Crystalis talked to her cousins on the planet. Can she talk to her cousins whenever she wants? Can she do it only when in the physical realm?

We do not know that she has ever communicated with the Sleepless on First of the Sun. The passage (IED Ch 46):

Spoiler

 I thought the Aviar of First of the Sun were all herbivores?

Every bird I know, Dusk said, will have a worm or a beetle now and then. It’s good for them.

Occasional opportunistic carnivores, then, the thing said. Curious. I’ve not been to your world, but several of my siblings reside there, watching your kind with great interest.

So, we only know that in Chrysalis' six thousand years of life she has encountered Aviar she beleived to be Herbivorous and that she know of Sleepless residing on First of the Sun to watch the Eelakin. Those two data are not necessarily connected. Sleepless nodes communicate with each other via the Spiritual Realm, which is why hordelings separated from the swarm can still share information.

However, Swarms communicating with each other were shown in Dawnshard to need at least 1 hordeling from each swarm to be in the same location (probably does not matter if it is in the PR or CR) because they communicate through a buzzing language with each other:

Spoiler

Dawnshard Ch 6:

Quote

At the same time, Nikli closed the body’s most obvious set of eyes—its human eyes, which were actually functional, something Nikli was proud of. Most Sleepless used prop eyes. That caused their sight lines to be off, easier to notice.

With the body’s eyes closed, it was easier to feel the distant pieces of the self. Spread all across Roshar. And Nikli could make them buzz, communicating with the others, speaking directly from mind to mind as its buzzes were interpreted by hordelings bred specifically for the purpose.

Dawnshard Ch 19:
 

Quote

 

“I am of the Peaks,” Cord said. “Guardians of the pool. You know I can be trusted.”

Nikli buzzed with the others of his kind, then he looked Cord up and down. “If we agree to this deal, we will trade the Soulcasters to Rysn for training and aid in imitating humans. 

<snip>

Nikli stood up, his hordelings snapping together. He pulled his robe tight. “We will discuss.” Behind, the other two disintegrated completely, turning into piles. “Then we will vote. It will not take long, as the others have been relaying our conversation to all the swarms. We communicate faster than humans.”

<snip>

He nodded, then broke into hordelings—like a person who had frozen in cold Southern winds, then shattered.

Cord knelt beside her. “You did well,” she whispered. “As well as anyone in the songs, when dealing with dangerous gods. But you did not trick him.”

“Hopefully this is better,” Rysn whispered back.

Cord nodded, but then immediately began working on the Plate to get the last pieces powered. She plainly wanted to be ready, just in case.

It wouldn’t be enough. Rysn waited, tense, watching the hordelings chitter and move, as if the many pieces were at least slightly autonomous. Nikli had said his conference with the others would not take long, but Rysn found the wait almost unbearable.

After about five minutes, Nikli re-formed. “It is done.”

 

 

So, at any time before joining Hoid's crew, Chrysalis may have been part of a Sleepless meeting getting reports from the distant members observing specific planets. Or, she may have only been part of a meeting reviewing information gathered from those distant Sleepless. Or she may have just heard rumors of where distant simplings were living. We simply do not have enough information to know. 

Hope that helps

Edited July 15, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[teknopathetic he/him]

59 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

We do not know that she has ever communicated with the Sleepless on First of the Sun. The passage (IED Ch 46):

 

So, at any time before joining Hoid's crew, Chrysalis may have been part of a Sleepless meeting getting reports from the distant members observing specific planets. Or, she may have only been part of a meeting reviewing information gathered from those distant Sleepless. Or she may have just heard rumors of where distant simplings were living. We simply do not have enough information to know. 

Hope that helps

I disagree somewhat. At one point, Crysalis convinces Dusk that she knows whats going on by showing some very specific cultural competence cues: she calls the birds Aviars and also says she appreciates the "rain pose" that Dusk takes while listening to her.

That rain pose thing means that she has some pretty specific information about cultural practices that would not likely be transmitted in a brief telegraph about the world. Likely, whatever communication she had, she absorbed so much information  that the knowledge got down to the granular stuff such as "the people here take specific poses when showing respect or listening to person/deity. Here are a few such as the rain pose". That is VERY specific. 

I know we dont know information transfer works between Sleepless (maybe they incorporate another horde's memory node and take the knowledge), but it seems like Chrysalis is pretty well informed. 

Edited July 15, 2025 by teknopathetic

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

That rain pose thing means that she has some pretty specific information about cultural practices that would not likely be transmitted in a brief telegraph about the world. Likely, whatever communication she had, she absorbed so much information  that the knowledge got down to the granular stuff such as "the people here take specific poses when showing respect or listening to person/deity. Here are a few such as the rain pose". That is VERY specific. 

Concur that is possible, but it's also possible that she picked it up from his thoughts as he assumed the pose. She specifically calls out (Ch 46):

Spoiler

It was talking to him. How?

I have grown, the thing said, a specialized organ for the purpose of communicating mind to mind. This individual insect is not me, but is a piece of me directed by the whole.

It could read his mind?

Yes, though it helps if you form the words specifically, slowly, one after another.

I agree the implication leans toward your conclusion, but Sanderson has a habit of implying one thing when another thing is occuring. I would say likely, but not conclusive until/unless we get a WoB to clarify. 

That said - to go back to your OP question:

16 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

do you think they are the ones responsible for moving the Aviar to other worlds?

While It may be possible one or more Sleepless moved an Aviar off-world in the past (from Dusk's perspective), I doubt it is likely that they were teh primary source. We know that during RoW - a Ghostbood has an Aviar, and a Feruchemist that is not a Ghostbool also has one. To me, this indicates more than one "source" has accessed Aviar during the time of the events of Stormlight Archive - especially since Mraize's "Aviar" seems to be like Sak - a non-pantheon-native bird to have acquired a Bond (Described as more of a Raptor than parrot species - just as Sak is a Raven (Corvid)).  

Just providing data for discussion. . . 

Edited July 15, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[teknopathetic he/him]

51 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

 

While It may be possible one or more Sleepless moved an Aviar off-world in the past (from Dusk's perspective), I doubt it is likely that they were teh primary source. We know that during RoW - a Ghostbood has an Aviar, and a Feruchemist that is not a Ghostbool also has one. To me, this indicates more than one "source" has accessed Aviar during the time of the events of Stormlight Archive - especially since Mraize's "Aviar" seems to be like Sak - a non-pantheon-native bird to have acquired a Bond (Described as more of a Raptor than parrot species - just as Sak is a Raven (Corvid)).  

Just providing data for discussion. . . 

So far, the only people we know who have been to the island before RoW are:
1.Dusk's People
2. The Irali (Unless they went here after WaT which seems unlikely given how old the tapestry piece seems to be)
3. Frost (he was at least close and seems to know the jist of what happened)
4. Possibly the Sleepless (with the Iriali, with Dusk's people, or using their own way)

If the answer is one of these 4, only the Sleepless seem like a group that bounces around the cosmere enough to conduct trade between Roshar and First of the Sun. Rosharans couldn't use their spren off world in RoW, and the Dragons dont seem to be too move-aroundy while also being unable to benefit from a nahel bond. As for the Irali, it seems like they dont seem to backtrack often as far as we can tell. 

Perhaps we are not giving Dusk's people enough credit. Perhaps some trapper figured out a way to get off world in some other way besides the Emberdark. Perhaps someone got ahold of an Aviar that gives teleportation powers much like Sig's power in the Sunlit Man. Or perhaps the First of the Sun pool can manifest into multiple exits much like Silverlight. I did spend a lot of the book convinced this portal would have more than one exit, and perhaps it does but no one has figured out the intent.

5. Ishar's Portal?
Another super weird option is that Ishar's Ashyn--> Roshar portal is somehow responsible. Ishar made a temporary portal between the two words and maybe whatever he did left something behind? Maybe whatever Ishar did  with unbound Elsecalling made something that the  First of the Sun Birds can go between. In Wat, we even get a little scene showing all the birds rushing through the portal and the characters noting how surprised they are by this in WaT. I realize this is far fetched, but it could be an explanation if all other explanations are ruled out. 

We don't know what First of the Sun's portal is, and perhaps it had the ability to connect to portals made by unbound Elsecalling. We have bird in Shinovar afterall which is exactly where the birds seem to be. A couple birds slipping though the remnants of this this portal would be interesting. 

 

Edited July 15, 2025 by teknopathetic

[Treamayne]

14 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Ishar's Portal?
Another option is that Ishar's Ashyn--> Roshar portal is responsible. Ishar made a temporary portal between the two words, and we do see many many birds flying through. Maybe whatever Ishar did made a little portal that the First of the Sun Birds can go between. 

That Elsecalling was Bondsmith-powered - but it beings up another point. The Ire were widespread long before RoW, and AonDor is more than capabale of Elsecalling (Aon Tia). So there are at least a few other options. Elsecalling is a Realmatic Constant that can be accomplished by multiple MoIs, so AonDor and Surgebinding are unlikely to be the only two possibilities (and we know Elsecalling can move between Shadesmar and the PR without a Shardic Perpendicularity). In fact, there is no guarantee that SA era Aviar moved though Patji at all - implied but not conclusive. 

Edited July 15, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[lacrossedeamon]

For the talking thing the Sleepless might be able to manipulate Connection between each other to talk like Sigzil and Hoid do in TSM or they might have a portion of the Spiritual Realm to commune in like the Spirit Shores.

Also iirc IOTE implied the Ones Above arrived to FotS earlier than they did in SotD so the Sleepless would have had a little bit longer to smuggle themselves on to the planet if that is the method they got there. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

That Elsecalling was Bondsmith-powered - but it beings up another point. The Ire were widespread long before RoW, and AonDor is more than capabale of Elsecalling (Aon Tia). So there are at least a few other options. Elsecalling is a Realmatic Constant that can be accomplished by multiple MoIs, so AonDor and Surgebinding are unlikely to be the only two possibilities (and we know Elsecalling can move between Shadesmar and the PR without a Shardic Perpendicularity). In fact, there is no guarantee that SA era Aviar moved though Patji at all - implied but not conclusive. 

I suppose someone could be transporting the worms off First of the Sun or have figured out how to grow the worms using Stormlight or Cultivationlight etc. Animals that grant bonds seems right up Cultivation ally afterall and even kind of reminds me of the Purelake Fishymancers eating fish to get temporary boons. 

Bizzarrer Option 6: Cultivation's Pre-History Walkabout
We know Cultivation left Roshar for a time and came back to Honour after doing some exploring. Perhaps she found First of the Sun and is responsible for any First of the Sun ->Roshar teleportation shenanigans. 

Edited July 15, 2025 by teknopathetic

[Isilel]

16 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

When do you think the Sleepless arrived, and do you think they are the ones responsible for moving the Aviar to other worlds?

 

I think that Crystal lied about there currently being Sleepless in residence on First of the Sun. She was desperate to escape and wanted to convince Dusk that letting her on the planet wouldn't be dangerous, since others of her kind were already there and doing no harm.

Sleepless may have visited in the past, of course. In fact, it occurs to me that they'd have a great advantage at navigating Shadesmar, if they can leave communication nodes with their fellows on other planets and still connect to them. Triangulation bonanza! Though I suspect that Crystal doesn't have that luxury for reasons.

If they did visit, they certainly could have brought some Aviar out, and worldhoppers could have purchased them.

Anyway, Frost should know the location of Perpendicularity, and if Gereh was one of 17-Sharders, as I think was very likely the case, then he could have been granted his Aviar for whatever task he was charged with on Roshar.

As to Mraize's Aviar - I don't know. Would a predatory bird, which ate an Aviar together with it's worms, become one? If so, he and Iyatil could have killed another 17th Sharder and his bird  somewhere else and done that. If not, well, whoever they got it from liked experimenting.

I don't think that Aviar need continuous supply of worms from the Perpendicularity during their lifetime - those on the homeisles don't require any refreshes to maintain their powers. So, I very much doubt that the worms have been cultivated off-world. 

[Treamayne]

38 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Sleepless may have visited in the past, of course. In fact, it occurs to me that they'd have a great advantage at navigating Shadesmar, if they can leave communication nodes with their fellows on other planets and still connect to them. Triangulation bonanza! Though I suspect that Crystal doesn't have that luxury for reasons.

I doubt a single Sleepless could have nodes on multiple planets. WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Regarding Dysian Aimians. The cremlings that make them up are spread about in a large area--

Brandon Sanderson

They can lose touch if the distance is too far. They can lose contact with the mind of the whole thing.

Questioner

Would their Cognitive aspect be affected by that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes it would be. I'll just leave it there, but yes.

Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)

 

[teknopathetic he/him]

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

I don't think that Aviar need continuous supply of worms from the Perpendicularity during their lifetime - those on the homeisles don't require any refreshes to maintain their powers. So, I very much doubt that the worms have been cultivated off-world. 

Oh sorry. I didn’t mean to imply the birds each needed a continuous supply of worms to remain invested. They don’t need to refresh.
 

 What I was trying to say is maybe someone has started to just simply export the worms to planets that have a native bird population. 

If it was possible to just move the parasite off world and get the same effect, I would assume that would just be a simpler way of doing things. I’m sure people would look at these worms and consider farming them off world and seeing which species can gain an effect 

Perhaps the worms could subsist on stormlight or manage to survive in the cultivation shard pool. Something like that. Then Mraize could have fed a cultivated worm to a bird from Roshar. 
 

And this could make some sense. Perhaps someone in the past figured out the worms help boats float, and figured out a way to cultivate a unsea worm farm for a longer supply of worm paste on the open sea. This person makes it to a planet with investiture and manages to continue to grow the worms. These worms eventually make it to Roshar and someone discovers that if birds eat them, the birds become invested too. People assume it’s something like the Purelake Fish powers. Maybe the worms even like the Purelake. Something along those lines. 

Edited July 15, 2025 by teknopathetic