Theory about the origins of the Thrill (and possibly other Unmade)

[Isilel]

I don’t remember if I ever posted this theory. But I had it since OB and new information in WaT only supported it.

First of all, we have seen Shard splinters on Sel – Seons and Skaze. We didn’t see anything bigger and more powerful, but we haven’t seen the whole world – besides which, Odium may have taken care not to leave anything like that behind in one piece.

The Thrill is red – the color of corrupted investiture, and it’s Intent is joy of contest and of dominating competition in one way or another. Which is very in line with Dominion.

Then in WaT we learned that the origins of the Unmade are a mystery – i.e. there were no known great spren on pre-Odium Roshar which could be conveniently mapped onto them and which have gone conspicuously missing.

But Odium didn’t want to heavily Invest into Roshar, so would he have really used pretty big chunks of his own investiture? Or rather re-purposed that of defeated enemies, if he had the chance?

Finally, Taravangian wanted to create an Unmade out of Dalinar’s soul, which at that point was a Shard sliver. Couldn’t Rayse have successfully done so to Aona and Skai’s souls in the past? As well as corrupted and re-purposed chunks of Dominion’s and Devotion’s investiture? Like almost happened to the Sibling?

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

Yes, the Sibling's words support this. They said that Raboniel was going to 'Unmake' them. 

I think Ba-Ado-Mishram could be stolen from Ambition, and Re-Shephir from the aethers. Though I do think that some Unmade are purely Splinters of Odium, like Ashertman.

[ChipsAHoid He/Him]

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

I don’t remember if I ever posted this theory. But I had it since OB and new information in WaT only supported it.

First of all, we have seen Shard splinters on Sel – Seons and Skaze. We didn’t see anything bigger and more powerful, but we haven’t seen the whole world – besides which, Odium may have taken care not to leave anything like that behind in one piece.

The Thrill is red – the color of corrupted investiture, and it’s Intent is joy of contest and of dominating competition in one way or another. Which is very in line with Dominion.

Then in WaT we learned that the origins of the Unmade are a mystery – i.e. there were no known great spren on pre-Odium Roshar which could be conveniently mapped onto them and which have gone conspicuously missing.

But Odium didn’t want to heavily Invest into Roshar, so would he have really used pretty big chunks of his own investiture? Or rather re-purposed that of defeated enemies, if he had the chance?

Finally, Taravangian wanted to create an Unmade out of Dalinar’s soul, which at that point was a Shard sliver. Couldn’t Rayse have successfully done so to Aona and Skai’s souls in the past? As well as corrupted and re-purposed chunks of Dominion’s and Devotion’s investiture? Like almost happened to the Sibling?

That’s storming genius.

I think Moelach is definitely Odium, as Future sight is associated with them.

Sja-Anat may be from Devotion, as she cares a lot for her children, but idk, kinda a stretch.

I don’t think we know enough about the others to formulate theories on them.

[Jult]

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

I don’t remember if I ever posted this theory. But I had it since OB and new information in WaT only supported it.

First of all, we have seen Shard splinters on Sel – Seons and Skaze. We didn’t see anything bigger and more powerful, but we haven’t seen the whole world – besides which, Odium may have taken care not to leave anything like that behind in one piece.

The Thrill is red – the color of corrupted investiture, and it’s Intent is joy of contest and of dominating competition in one way or another. Which is very in line with Dominion.

Then in WaT we learned that the origins of the Unmade are a mystery – i.e. there were no known great spren on pre-Odium Roshar which could be conveniently mapped onto them and which have gone conspicuously missing.

But Odium didn’t want to heavily Invest into Roshar, so would he have really used pretty big chunks of his own investiture? Or rather re-purposed that of defeated enemies, if he had the chance?

Finally, Taravangian wanted to create an Unmade out of Dalinar’s soul, which at that point was a Shard sliver. Couldn’t Rayse have successfully done so to Aona and Skai’s souls in the past? As well as corrupted and re-purposed chunks of Dominion’s and Devotion’s investiture? Like almost happened to the Sibling?

Very cool idea! And, from what we know, Rayse has interacted with almost the same number of Shards since the time of the Shattering.

He shattered Devotion (1) and Dominion (2) in events that Autonomy (3) was somehow involved in. Then he fought Ambition (4) in a battle that Mercy (5) was somehow involved in. Then he came to Roshar where he meddled with Honor (6) and Cultivation's (7) affairs.

If one of the Unmade is a splinter of Odium himself, then that makes 8. Who knows? He could have bumped heads with some 9th Shard. There are plenty of theories about Valor and Reason floating around. Or the ninth Unmade could have been some trace of Adonalsium that was left on Roshar like Wind was.

Autonomy is probably the shakiest of the above. She may not even have been present for whatever happened on Sel. Mercy's involvement in the Shattering of Ambition is also pretty hazy. But I think for the other 5, Rayse definitely would have had an opportunity to swipe a bit of Investiture.

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

2 hours ago, Jult said:

Very cool idea! And, from what we know, Rayse has interacted with almost the same number of Shards since the time of the Shattering.

He shattered Devotion (1) and Dominion (2) in events that Autonomy (3) was somehow involved in. Then he fought Ambition (4) in a battle that Mercy (5) was somehow involved in. Then he came to Roshar where he meddled with Honor (6) and Cultivation's (7) affairs.

If one of the Unmade is a splinter of Odium himself, then that makes 8. Who knows? He could have bumped heads with some 9th Shard. There are plenty of theories about Valor and Reason floating around. Or the ninth Unmade could have been some trace of Adonalsium that was left on Roshar like Wind was.

Autonomy is probably the shakiest of the above. She may not even have been present for whatever happened on Sel. Mercy's involvement in the Shattering of Ambition is also pretty hazy. But I think for the other 5, Rayse definitely would have had an opportunity to swipe a bit of Investiture.

The ninth, I'm thinking, is Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother, because she's literal aether.

Which means Odium somehow corrupted aether.

[Jult]

6 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

The ninth, I'm thinking, is Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother, because she's literal aether.

Which means Odium somehow corrupted aether.

Oh! OH! So, I'm definitely leaping to conclusions. But in TLM, Prasanva calls out:

Quote

“By the grace of Silajana, Suna, Vishwadhar, and the Twelve Primal Aethers, I am Sanvith Prasanva Maahik va Sila..." 

I always thought the quote was really weird because we know Silajana is one of the Primal Aethers... Presumably Suna and Vishwadhar are also Primal Aethers. So why shout out "by the grace of these 3 specific Primal Aethers and all twelve Primal Aethers including those 3 I just mentioned"? It's weirdly redundant, right?

But what if those 3 Primal Aethers are the only ones actively fulfilling their roles as "Gods" right now? Because something bad happened to the other... 9.

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

8 minutes ago, Jult said:

Oh! OH! So, I'm definitely leaping to conclusions. But in TLM, Prasanva calls out:

I always thought the quote was really weird because we know Silajana is one of the Primal Aethers... Presumably Suna and Vishwadhar are also Primal Aethers. So why shout out "by the grace of these 3 specific Primal Aethers and all twelve Primal Aethers including those 3 I just mentioned"? It's weirdly redundant, right?

But what if those 3 Primal Aethers are the only ones actively fulfilling their roles as "Gods" right now? Because something bad happened to the other... 9.

This... is suspicious, yes, but all the Unmade aren't aethers. It's only Re-Shephir as far as we know, and she's midnight aether.

Also maybe the Dark Aether is something Unmade-related.

[Ripheus23]

Doesn't one of the Unmade say, "He made us, and then unmade us"? That probably wouldn't fit any aethers being turned into Unmade unless Rayse made the aethers (the specific ones, not the "species") somehow...

Also, if the Unmade were a response to the Heralds, we'd be supposing that Rayse carried around chunks of other, defeated Shards for this possible use down the road?

Also, Sanderson has said: "The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power." Even if Rayse used chunks of other Shards, or aethers, or whatever, as one of his bases for any Unmade, he still added a chunk of himself to the mix each/every time. The likeliest scenario in terms of thematic diversity is somewhere in a range between "Splinters of Odium alone were involved" to "at least some were only Odium-based, but some were based on other things also" to "every Unmade is some mix of Odium's Splintering and the essence of a relevant other power" (e.g. other Shards, aethers, w/e).

[Jult]

19 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

This... is suspicious, yes, but all the Unmade aren't aethers. It's only Re-Shephir as far as we know, and she's midnight aether.

Also maybe the Dark Aether is something Unmade-related.

Yeah. I don't think we know enough about either group to start mapping anything. But something to keep in mind for future titles.

 

26 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Doesn't one of the Unmade say, "He made us, and then unmade us"? That probably wouldn't fit any aethers being turned into Unmade unless Rayse made the aethers (the specific ones, not the "species") somehow...

I believe you're thinking of Sja-Anat speaking to Shallan in Oathbringer.

Quote

Shallan regarded the figure in the mirror. It had spoken. “What are you?”

They call me the Taker of Secrets, the figure said. Or they once did.

“One of the Unmade. Our enemies.”

We were made, then unmade, she agreed. But no, not an enemy! The figure turned humanlike again, though the eyes remained glowing white. It pressed its hands against the glass. Ask my son. Please.

“You’re of him. Odium.”

The figure glanced to the sides, as if frightened. No. I am of me. Now, only of me.

It's vague enough that I wouldn't automatically give Rayse credit for the "making". Though we do know he did the "unmaking". 

54 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Also, if the Unmade were a response to the Heralds, we'd be supposing that Rayse carried around chunks of other, defeated Shards for this possible use down the road?

Rayse seemed to be winging it for a lot of his earlier actions. Like the Dor's creation was a result of him not really knowing what to do with Devotion and Dominion's Investiture. It seems plausible that he could have gathered up some chunks, and then simply couldn't figure out how to effectively use them for a while. 

[Ripheus23]

Quote

Rayse seemed to be winging it for a lot of his earlier actions. Like the Dor's creation was a result of him not really knowing what to do with Devotion and Dominion's Investiture. It seems plausible that he could have gathered up some chunks, and then simply couldn't figure out how to effectively use them for a while. 

This could actually work really well, but more indirectly. Because of who he has murdered before, Rayse has various dark Connections to various worlds. Maybe he killed an aether along the way. So, as he responds to the Heralds vs. the Fused, he "activates" pockets of his assigned Investiture on those worlds which were originally subsumed there by the Shards/powers that he ruined. We'd be assuming, then, that there were pockets of Odium on all those worlds. But it's said that most Shards do this. Is it to avoid having to concern themselves with every random world that happens to feature a pocket of their assigned Investiture? They "shed the excess"? Or so they start to do such a thing but turn to hatred from neglect when Odium did such a thing, and cut the pockets of Investiture off from himself just enough for them to metaphorically hang off his body like unhealing gore? And in the cases of higher intelligence, they Cognitively/Spiritually hung on to him by a thread. Also, like the Heralds, they were drawn from their worlds of origin, to Braize. So that was how they got from Sel and Threnody, say, to Roshar, by dying on their original worlds (being unmade) to come back in the ambit of their Lord's battlefield now?

[Jult]

4 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

This could actually work really well, but more indirectly. Because of who he has murdered before, Rayse has various dark Connections to various worlds. Maybe he killed an aether along the way. So, as he responds to the Heralds vs. the Fused, he "activates" pockets of his assigned Investiture on those worlds which were originally subsumed there by the Shards/powers that he ruined. We'd be assuming, then, that there were pockets of Odium on all those worlds. But it's said that most Shards do this. Is it to avoid having to concern themselves with every random world that happens to feature a pocket of their assigned Investiture? They "shed the excess"? Or so they start to do such a thing but turn to hatred from neglect when Odium did such a thing, and cut the pockets of Investiture off from himself just enough for them to metaphorically hang off his body like unhealing gore? And in the cases of higher intelligence, they Cognitively/Spiritually hung on to him by a thread. Also, like the Heralds, they were drawn from their worlds of origin, to Braize. So that was how they got from Sel and Threnody, say, to Roshar, by dying on their original worlds (being unmade) to come back in the ambit of their Lord's battlefield now?

On a similar line of thought. It may not have even been fully on purpose. Rayse got hurt during his fight with Ambition. And it sounds like they bounced around the Cosmere quite a bit during the conflict. Bits of him could have landed anywhere. 

[Isilel]

On 7/8/2025 at 11:03 AM, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

think Ba-Ado-Mishram could be stolen from Ambition

 

The Spiritual Realm scenes in WaT where she appeared made me wonder if she hadn't been created from Aona's (Vessel of Devotion) soul, due to her strong attunement to softer emotions, which are very much subdued in the Odium Shard itself. And there is this notion that she might have been able to supplant Rayse as a Vessel - why? Because she had been a corporeal being at some point?

But the problem with her is, that she is so deeply integrated into the functioning of Roshar. Which suggests her having been originally native. However, there are no plausible candidates, unless the theory about the secret fourth primordial spren, that was never mentioned is correct. But that wouldn't explain everything either. So, she is an enigma, wrapped in mystery.

 

14 hours ago, Jult said:

from what we know, Rayse has interacted with almost the same number of Shards since the time of the Shattering.

 

I think that they were  Unmade from the investiture and souls of the Shards that he actually fought and defeated. So, 3, which also maps well. 

But I also agree that Re-Shepir seems like a corrupted aether or a piece of one. Shallan did think in OB that she had been human or similar at some point, so did Odium corrupt an aether from one of their aetherbound?

11 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

 Even if Rayse used chunks of other Shards, or aethers, or whatever, as one of his bases for any Unmade, he still added a chunk of himself to the mix each/every time.

Well, sure. This still allowed him to invest less of himself and re-purpose his enemies power for his own benefit, IMHO. Like we saw almost happen with the Sibling.

As to him carrying around chunks, maybe he had already fashioned and used some of the Unmade as tools and weapons during his fights with his prior victims. He just didn't need to deploy them until Honor empowered the Heralds.

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

33 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 

The Spiritual Realm scenes in WaT where she appeared made me wonder if she hadn't been created from Aona's (Vessel of Devotion) soul, due to her strong attunement to softer emotions, which are very much subdued in the Odium Shard itself. And there is this notion that she might have been able to supplant Rayse as a Vessel - why? Because she had been a corporeal being at some point?

But the problem with her is, that she is so deeply integrated into the functioning of Roshar. Which suggests her having been originally native. However, there are no plausible candidates, unless the theory about the secret fourth primordial spren, that was never mentioned is correct. But that wouldn't explain everything either. So, she is an enigma, wrapped in mystery.

 

 

I think that they were  Unmade from the investiture and souls of the Shards that he actually fought and defeated. So, 3, which also maps well. 

But I also agree that Re-Shepir seems like a corrupted aether or a piece of one. Shallan did think in OB that she had been human or similar at some point, so did Odium corrupt an aether from one of their aetherbound?

Well, sure. This still allowed him to invest less of himself and re-purpose his enemies power for his own benefit, IMHO. Like we saw almost happen with the Sibling.

As to him carrying around chunks, maybe he had already fashioned and used some of the Unmade as tools and weapons during his fights with his prior victims. He just didn't need to deploy them until Honor empowered the Heralds.

I feel like BAM connected herself through Bondsmith-like powers, not Devotion-ness. She would've been very Ambitious to try and lead a desolation on her own without Fused.

I agree that the Unmade all have a bit of Odium from their unmaking. I also still think that Neragoul, the Thrill, is pure Odium, and maybe Moelach. Although, we don't know how could Aona and Skai's future sight was, and seeing as Cultivation has the best of the known Shards, Death Rattles may come from Devotion.

[ChipsAHoid He/Him]

2 hours ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

I feel like BAM connected herself through Bondsmith-like powers, not Devotion-ness. She would've been very Ambitious to try and lead a desolation on her own without Fused.

I agree that the Unmade all have a bit of Odium from their unmaking. I also still think that Neragoul, the Thrill, is pure Odium, and maybe Moelach. Although, we don't know how could Aona and Skai's future sight was, and seeing as Cultivation has the best of the known Shards, Death Rattles may come from Devotion.

So, if @Jult is correct, and he could get it via interactions, then Moelach may be from cultivation. However, personally, I think being able to use someone else’s investiture in such a simple way would happen more often if it were that easy. I would think that most Shards would do that, although that might be interesting to look into.

Coppermind says the Heralds may be splinters, but I don’t really think that’s how it works. WaT spoiler:

Spoiler

In chapters 64 and 65, when they created the Oathpact, it looked to me more like they were just being connected to Honor and each other, and then Vedel made them immortal. Beyond that, they were created as a counter to the fused, who are cognitive shadows, not splinters. Of course, I could be wrong on any of this, please correct me.

 

16 hours ago, Jult said:

Oh! OH! So, I'm definitely leaping to conclusions. But in TLM, Prasanva calls out:

I always thought the quote was really weird because we know Silajana is one of the Primal Aethers... Presumably Suna and Vishwadhar are also Primal Aethers. So why shout out "by the grace of these 3 specific Primal Aethers and all twelve Primal Aethers including those 3 I just mentioned"? It's weirdly redundant, right?

But what if those 3 Primal Aethers are the only ones actively fulfilling their roles as "Gods" right now? Because something bad happened to the other... 9.

I actually kind of like this theory. I think it’s far less likely, but it’s cool so let’s entertain it. 

As previously established, Re-Shephir is midnight, perhaps crimson could be Ashertmarn, but I’m not sure abt the others

[Jult]

11 minutes ago, ChipsAHoid said:

I actually kind of like this theory. I think it’s far less likely, but it’s cool so let’s entertain it. 

As previously established, Re-Shephir is midnight, perhaps crimson could be Ashertmarn, but I’m not sure abt the others

More a random thought than a theory. But thanks! Yeah, it's tough because we haven't seen all of the Unmade in good detail and we don't even know what half of the Aethers do. More than half if you don't assume that Aether Spores have identical abilities to their corresponding Aethers.

I'd be happy to keep speculating on it if you wanted to split it off into a new Topic. I don't want to detract further from Isilel's theory.

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

I think that they were  Unmade from the investiture and souls of the Shards that he actually fought and defeated. So, 3, which also maps well. 

But I also agree that Re-Shepir seems like a corrupted aether or a piece of one. Shallan did think in OB that she had been human or similar at some point, so did Odium corrupt an aether from one of their aetherbound?

If we're only focusing on Skai, Aona, and Uli da, that does map very well. We know there are three 'mindless' Unmade according to Hessi's Mythica. Ba-Ado-Mishram seems in a class of her own. And then that leaves 5 mid-intelligence Unmade.

Could I propose:

• The 3 mindless are made solely from Odium splinters
• The 5 mid-tier are made from Aona and Skai (they may be a little less 'perfect' than BAM because of the Dor fiasco or just because he divided them further)
• BAM is made entirely from Uli da using lessons learned from creating the first 8

The midnight essence thing might just be a Yolish Lightweaving type situation. Where similar powers emerge because they are based on the same inherent forces within the Cosmere.

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

9 hours ago, ChipsAHoid said:

So, if @Jult is correct, and he could get it via interactions, then Moelach may be from cultivation. However, personally, I think being able to use someone else’s investiture in such a simple way would happen more often if it were that easy. I would think that most Shards would do that, although that might be interesting to look into.

Coppermind says the Heralds may be splinters, but I don’t really think that’s how it works. WaT spoiler:

  Hide contents

In chapters 64 and 65, when they created the Oathpact, it looked to me more like they were just being connected to Honor and each other, and then Vedel made them immortal. Beyond that, they were created as a counter to the fused, who are cognitive shadows, not splinters. Of course, I could be wrong on any of this, please correct me.

 

I actually kind of like this theory. I think it’s far less likely, but it’s cool so let’s entertain it. 

As previously established, Re-Shephir is midnight, perhaps crimson could be Ashertmarn, but I’m not sure abt the others

WaT spoilers are allowed here.

8 hours ago, Jult said:

More a random thought than a theory. But thanks! Yeah, it's tough because we haven't seen all of the Unmade in good detail and we don't even know what half of the Aethers do. More than half if you don't assume that Aether Spores have identical abilities to their corresponding Aethers.

I'd be happy to keep speculating on it if you wanted to split it off into a new Topic. I don't want to detract further from Isilel's theory.

If we're only focusing on Skai, Aona, and Uli da, that does map very well. We know there are three 'mindless' Unmade according to Hessi's Mythica. Ba-Ado-Mishram seems in a class of her own. And then that leaves 5 mid-intelligence Unmade.

Could I propose:

• The 3 mindless are made solely from Odium splinters
• The 5 mid-tier are made from Aona and Skai (they may be a little less 'perfect' than BAM because of the Dor fiasco or just because he divided them further)
• BAM is made entirely from Uli da using lessons learned from creating the first 8

The midnight essence thing might just be a Yolish Lightweaving type situation. Where similar powers emerge because they are based on the same inherent forces within the Cosmere.

One of the mindless Unmade is Yelig-nar. Is she pure Odium? I feel like there might be Dominion.

[ChipsAHoid He/Him]

9 hours ago, Jult said:

More a random thought than a theory. But thanks! Yeah, it's tough because we haven't seen all of the Unmade in good detail and we don't even know what half of the Aethers do. More than half if you don't assume that Aether Spores have identical abilities to their corresponding Aethers.

I'd be happy to keep speculating on it if you wanted to split it off into a new Topic. I don't want to detract further from Isilel's theory.

If we're only focusing on Skai, Aona, and Uli da, that does map very well. We know there are three 'mindless' Unmade according to Hessi's Mythica. Ba-Ado-Mishram seems in a class of her own. And then that leaves 5 mid-intelligence Unmade.

Could I propose:

• The 3 mindless are made solely from Odium splinters
• The 5 mid-tier are made from Aona and Skai (they may be a little less 'perfect' than BAM because of the Dor fiasco or just because he divided them further)
• BAM is made entirely from Uli da using lessons learned from creating the first 8

The midnight essence thing might just be a Yolish Lightweaving type situation. Where similar powers emerge because they are based on the same inherent forces within the Cosmere.

I think it fits together really well, so naturally I’m attracted to such a theory.

 

12 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

WaT spoilers are allowed here.

One of the mindless Unmade is Yelig-nar. Is she pure Odium? I feel like there might be Dominion.

Is he? Coppermind didn’t say, but I’m not surprised, he does seem like the most likely of them ig.

Idk, I think the mindless ones being purely of Odium, 100% feelings over logic makes sense to me, plus if they’re the first ones, logically they’d be the least smart. Idk tho, I’m not very perceptive, as you can tell by me missing that…

[Jult]

12 hours ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

One of the mindless Unmade is Yelig-nar. Is she pure Odium? I feel like there might be Dominion.

I don't think Yelig-nar is one of the Mindless. I think the Mindless are Ashertmarn, Nergaoul, and (surprisingly) Moelach.

Here's a collection of Hessi's Mythica quotes on the mindless (spoilered for length):

Spoiler

Quote

"Lore suggested leaving a city if the spren there start acting strangely. Curiously, Sja-anat was often regarded as an individual, when others - like Moelach or Ashertmarn - were seen as forces." - Oathbringer Chapter 98

"Nergaoul was known for driving forces into a battle rage, lending them great ferocity. Curiously, he did this to both sides of a conflict, Voidbringer and human. This seems common of the less self-aware spren." - Oathbringer Chapter 99

"Moelach is very similar to Nergaoul, though instead of inspiring a battle rage, he supposedly granted visions of the future. In this, lore and theology align. Seeing the future originates with the Unmade, and is from the enemy." - Oathbringer 101

"Ashertmarn, the Heart of the Revel, is the final of the three great mindless Unmade. His gift to men is not prophecy or battle focus, but a lust for indulgence. Indeed, the great debauchery recorded from the court of Bayala in 480 - which led to dynastic collapse - might be attributable to the influence of Ashertmarn."

Jasnah points out that Yelig-nar can speak in her notes:

Quote

"Yelig-nar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed." - The Way of Kings Chapter 45

[Isilel]

22 hours ago, Jult said:

The 3 mindless are made solely from Odium splinters

 

But then, why call them "Unmade"? When they would have been just "Made" by Odium like any other voidspren. In the two on-screen examples of attempted/planned creation of one, it was about corrupting and re-purposing a pre-existing entity made from other investiture 

And as I pointed out in the title, I personally strongly believe that the Thrill is a splinter of Dominion's investiture, corrupted and re-tooled by Odium. Not made from Skai's soul, though. Maybe that could be Yelig-nar?

OTOH, it is really hard to see how Ashertmarn could have had ties to any other Shard than Odium, I agree.

 

[Jult]

4 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 

But then, why call them "Unmade"? When they would have been just "Made" by Odium like any other voidspren. In the two on-screen examples of attempted/planned creation of one, it was about corrupting and re-purposing a pre-existing entity made from other investiture 

 

Good point. I think I got a bit of tunnel vision there trying to map things to the 3 categories without thinking it through. Maybe the Mindless are made from some other heavily Invested entity that was already less sentient than the Shards/Vessels? Some early Spren, perhaps? Or something like whatever the Evil on Threnody was before it was warped by Odium and Ambition's fight?

Side note to that: do you think Odium witnessed the Evil's warping (WoB) and the Unmade could be his attempt to emulate or recreate that warping effect? Is that what "Unmaking" is?

[ChipsAHoid He/Him]

Spoiler

Is this the link u meant to put in for the WoB?

 

1 hour ago, Jult said:

Good point. I think I got a bit of tunnel vision there trying to map things to the 3 categories without thinking it through. Maybe the Mindless are made from some other heavily Invested entity that was already less sentient than the Shards/Vessels? Some early Spren, perhaps? Or something like whatever the Evil on Threnody was before it was warped by Odium and Ambition's fight?

Side note to that: do you think Odium witnessed the Evil's warping (WoB) and the Unmade could be his attempt to emulate or recreate that warping effect? Is that what "Unmaking" is?

I think that is a good theory. The WoB certainly supports it. I guess that’s another reason why he didn’t take their powers, beyond the Sunmaker Gambit.

So, are we thinking that instead of taking from the shard that he took from their creations, corrupting them like how they tried to corrupt the Sibling?

Edit: somebody asked this and got RAFO’d

Quote

Questioner

For one of the Unmade to be classified as Odium’s Unmade, must it have been made by another Shard or Investiture first before it became Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. RAFO. We’re gonna delve into the Unmade quite a bit in coming books, so I’m RAFOing right now.

Beyond that, @TwinStorm pointed out that “Sanderson has confirmed in a wob that all the Unmade all native to Roshar”

So… idk how viable this is anymore, unfortunately, but Sanderson said it was a good question, and it seems like we’re getting more info soon (5+ years…)

Edited July 10, 2025 by ChipsAHoid