Investiture hacking for atium.

[DoctaDajman]

Pure investiture is shown to work for allomancy. What if you had an electrum misting and pure investiture. We know that Atium is retconned to be the godmetals alloy with electrum, and thus anyone with electrum allomancy could burn it right?  

So could an electrum allomancer then use proper intent while filled with pure investiture to show other people's shadows instead of their own despite a lack of atium metal to work with? 

Could Marsh, who has good knowledge of atium carry around a canteen of liquid investiture to use it?  

What of Thinker/ Demoux. Could he hypothetically learn how Vasher is using stormlight and then carry around gems to fuel his atium use. (Side note, since the retcon is it just assumed that Demoux was actually an electrum allomancer?) 

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

6 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Pure investiture is shown to work for allomancy. What if you had an electrum misting and pure investiture. We know that Atium is retconned to be the godmetals alloy with electrum, and thus anyone with electrum allomancy could burn it right?  

So could an electrum allomancer then use proper intent while filled with pure investiture to show other people's shadows instead of their own despite a lack of atium metal to work with? 

Could Marsh, who has good knowledge of atium carry around a canteen of liquid investiture to use it?  

What of Thinker/ Demoux. Could he hypothetically learn how Vasher is using stormlight and then carry around gems to fuel his atium use. (Side note, since the retcon is it just assumed that Demoux was actually an electrum allomancer?) 

How would they get liquid Investiture though? Kelsier only has so much Dor. 

But yeah, I feel like an Oracle could use this, unless it has to be of that Shard, so liquid Ruin for atium.

But maybe they could find Dorium's properties with this.

[DoctaDajman]

4 hours ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

How would they get liquid Investiture though? Kelsier only has so much Dor. 

But yeah, I feel like an Oracle could use this, unless it has to be of that Shard, so liquid Ruin for atium.

But maybe they could find Dorium's properties with this.

I was operating on the theory that pure investiture could power any ability based on intent. I may need to look for that in a reread. When Vin breathes in the mist does she ever use it to project atium shadows?  She is able to use the mist to fuel all allomantic metals. If she does use atium with it then I think that will answer my question and prove that it doesn't matter which investiture you are using. 

Liquid and gaseous investiture, as far as I know, can be used to fuel any ability the person has access too. I believe this even proves true for awakening although the investiture wont stick as long and will not create objects that last more than a few minutes. 

But atium is a god metal. If it were as simple as intent to burn pure investiture and be given the result of atium shadows would it be just as easy and a result of intent to use pure dor to become a mistborn as well?  

So I can definately see the argument going both ways. If vin used the mists to produce atiums effects then it may prove that any investiture can produce the god metals effect. However if that is possible what stops kelsier from chugging down that liquid.dor one day and using it to replicate lerasiums effects? 

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

3 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I was operating on the theory that pure investiture could power any ability based on intent. I may need to look for that in a reread. When Vin breathes in the mist does she ever use it to project atium shadows?  She is able to use the mist to fuel all allomantic metals. If she does use atium with it then I think that will answer my question and prove that it doesn't matter which investiture you are using. 

Liquid and gaseous investiture, as far as I know, can be used to fuel any ability the person has access too. I believe this even proves true for awakening although the investiture wont stick as long and will not create objects that last more than a few minutes. 

But atium is a god metal. If it were as simple as intent to burn pure investiture and be given the result of atium shadows would it be just as easy and a result of intent to use pure dor to become a mistborn as well?  

So I can definately see the argument going both ways. If vin used the mists to produce atiums effects then it may prove that any investiture can produce the god metals effect. However if that is possible what stops kelsier from chugging down that liquid.dor one day and using it to replicate lerasiums effects? 

I wonder if you could make liquid Ruin/Preservation from the mists, as now there is one for Ruin too. If they could condense it, ingesting it may have the same effect as burning atium. 

Why couldn't any Allomancer breathe in the mists to power Allomancy? Because only Vin was Preservation-enough. But liquid Dor doesn't appear to need anything, but liquid Ruin might. Autonomy's perpendicularity was also usable.

So maybe liquid Investiture is more loose than gaseous ones.

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Could Marsh, who has good knowledge of atium carry around a canteen of liquid investiture to use it?  

What of Thinker/ Demoux. Could he hypothetically learn how Vasher is using stormlight and then carry around gems to fuel his atium use. (Side note, since the retcon is it just assumed that Demoux was actually an electrum allomancer?) 

Unlikely. Atium had the properties it did in Era 1 because Leras had removed the Temporal Metals (Bendally and Cadmium) from Allomancy and replaced them with E1Atium and Malatium. The Atium Shadows were caused by Atium's Investiture (which normally peaks into the Spiritual Realm) and Harmony undid those changes to Allomancy. Unkeyed Dor powers abilities found in the Spiritweb of the person using it, but the temporal side of Atium wasn't part of the spiritweb - it was part of the nature of Ruin's Investiture. . . 

Edited June 19, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Trusk'our he/him]

14 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I was operating on the theory that pure investiture could power any ability based on intent. I may need to look for that in a reread. When Vin breathes in the mist does she ever use it to project atium shadows?  She is able to use the mist to fuel all allomantic metals. If she does use atium with it then I think that will answer my question and prove that it doesn't matter which investiture you are using. 

Liquid and gaseous investiture, as far as I know, can be used to fuel any ability the person has access too. I believe this even proves true for awakening although the investiture wont stick as long and will not create objects that last more than a few minutes. 

But atium is a god metal. If it were as simple as intent to burn pure investiture and be given the result of atium shadows would it be just as easy and a result of intent to use pure dor to become a mistborn as well?  

So I can definately see the argument going both ways. If vin used the mists to produce atiums effects then it may prove that any investiture can produce the god metals effect. However if that is possible what stops kelsier from chugging down that liquid.dor one day and using it to replicate lerasiums effects? 

On one hand, raw Investiture will become easier to shape once you have it in you.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3415

mooglefrooglian

If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so?

Brandon Sanderson

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. This can be seen in Warbreaker, where the power has been distributed and inhabits the people. The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.)

So you see magics like on Sel and Scadrial where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. On Nalthis (and in a lesser way, Roshar) will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly.

A little direct manifestation in this is found in the subtle differences between Allomancy and Feruchemy. In Allomancy, when you enhance the senses, you just get a blast of power--and all senses are enhanced, whether you want them all or not. In Feruchemy, you can be more precise, and pick a specific sense to store. The power is internal here, and therefore more limited in how much you can draw--but you can also be more precise with its manipulation.

Note that Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.

uchoo786

How much crossover is there in use? Like if one "breathes" in the mists they can use it to power their allomancy. Could an Allomancer utilize stormlight to power his allomancy as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the magics can be hacked together in one way or another, but some are easier to interchange than others.

This still requires a type of instruction to give the power, which Intent might be enough to accomplish on its own, but it sounds like you'd need a power to shape it normally.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522-dragonsteel-2023/#e16264

Questioner

If you were divesting yourself of all Identity, and then tapped a massive amount of Connection and Investiture, would you be able to instantly have access to, say, the Surges on Roshar without oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

So, you wanna get the Surges without oaths? What you're saying is you divest yourself of Identity, you highly Invest yourself... You're still going to need something that's gonna tell that Investiture what to be and how to manifest in yourself. And so if it's the right Intent then maybe, right? 'Cause you can have both Identity and Intent on Investiture and you can unkey it to one or the other or both. And so that might be... But the thing is, you're still gonna have to know... This is a step toward getting what you want, but there's still gotta be something that tells it... "You're holding a massive amount of Investiture, what do I do with this? Do I teleport you across the Cosmere to another planet? What do I do with it?" And you're gonna have to have something to give structure to that Investiture. You're missing a step.

So, if an Electrum Misting had burned an Atium/Electrum alloy before, maybe they could replicate it with Intent alone, but I believe it would only be their standard power most if not all the time without some extraordinary circumstances. Maybe an Atium Savant could use raw Investiture that way due to the saturation their Spiritweb has.

[DoctaDajman]

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Unlikely. Atium had the properties it did in Era 1 because Leras had removed the Temporal Metals (Bendally and Cadmium) from Allomancy and replaced them with E1Atium and Malatium. The Atium Shadows were caused by Atium's Investiture (which normally peaks into the Spiritual Realm) and Harmony undid those changes to Allomancy. Unkeyed Dor powers abilities found in the Spiritweb of the person using it, but the temporal side of Atium wasn't part of the spiritweb - it was part of the nature of Ruin's Investiture. . . 

This is the first time I am hearing this. I always assumed cadmium and bendalloy just weren't known similarly to how the lord ruler hid the knowledge of aluminum and electrum from the publics knowledge. To hear that era 1 atium shadows are a thing that is dead and gone is mind-boggling, as I always assumed that the godmetals and their alloys would have places off of the charts. I figured the charts we saw before were simply based on the characters flawed knowledge of the system who were making the charts (which Brandon does and not all characters have a perfect knowledge of the system). If Triss were to draw a diagram of the allomantic table in Era 1 it could well look different than Era 2s because she learns more about the system. 

3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

On one hand, raw Investiture will become easier to shape once you have it in you.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3415

mooglefrooglian

If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so?

Brandon Sanderson

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. This can be seen in Warbreaker, where the power has been distributed and inhabits the people. The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.)

So you see magics like on Sel and Scadrial where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. On Nalthis (and in a lesser way, Roshar) will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly.

A little direct manifestation in this is found in the subtle differences between Allomancy and Feruchemy. In Allomancy, when you enhance the senses, you just get a blast of power--and all senses are enhanced, whether you want them all or not. In Feruchemy, you can be more precise, and pick a specific sense to store. The power is internal here, and therefore more limited in how much you can draw--but you can also be more precise with its manipulation.

Note that Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.

uchoo786

How much crossover is there in use? Like if one "breathes" in the mists they can use it to power their allomancy. Could an Allomancer utilize stormlight to power his allomancy as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the magics can be hacked together in one way or another, but some are easier to interchange than others.

This still requires a type of instruction to give the power, which Intent might be enough to accomplish on its own, but it sounds like you'd need a power to shape it normally.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522-dragonsteel-2023/#e16264

Questioner

If you were divesting yourself of all Identity, and then tapped a massive amount of Connection and Investiture, would you be able to instantly have access to, say, the Surges on Roshar without oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

So, you wanna get the Surges without oaths? What you're saying is you divest yourself of Identity, you highly Invest yourself... You're still going to need something that's gonna tell that Investiture what to be and how to manifest in yourself. And so if it's the right Intent then maybe, right? 'Cause you can have both Identity and Intent on Investiture and you can unkey it to one or the other or both. And so that might be... But the thing is, you're still gonna have to know... This is a step toward getting what you want, but there's still gotta be something that tells it... "You're holding a massive amount of Investiture, what do I do with this? Do I teleport you across the Cosmere to another planet? What do I do with it?" And you're gonna have to have something to give structure to that Investiture. You're missing a step.

So, if an Electrum Misting had burned an Atium/Electrum alloy before, maybe they could replicate it with Intent alone, but I believe it would only be their standard power most if not all the time without some extraordinary circumstances. Maybe an Atium Savant could use raw Investiture that way due to the saturation their Spiritweb has.

Perhaps if Elend were to have tasted raw investiture he could have shaped it to further juice up all of his allomancy in the way lerasium did the first time? 

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

This is the first time I am hearing this. I always assumed cadmium and bendalloy just weren't known similarly to how the lord ruler hid the knowledge of aluminum and electrum from the publics knowledge.

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Czanos

Are Atium and the External Temporal Pulling metal really the same?

Brandon Sanderson

You are on to something. 

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Quote

little wilson (paraphrased)

I saw Brandon at a book signing back in mid-December, and I asked him about the 16 percent deal. He said that Preservation replaced the real External Temporal Metals with atium and malatium (at least I'm assuming malatium, but he didn't mention that specifically. He only said atium). So not-cerrobend and cadmium weren't counted in the 16%. nicrosil and chromium, on the other hand, were. So there are chromium andnicrosil Mistings running around, not knowing that they're Mistings.

TWG Posts (Jan. 20, 2009)

Spoiler

Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching cadmium and bendalloy for atium and malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted atium and malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

 

 

12 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I always assumed that the godmetals and their alloys would have places off of the charts. I figured the charts we saw before were simply based on the characters flawed knowledge of the system who were making the charts

That is a factor, but not the only factor aroudn those two specific metals. To retain the "16" Preservation could not simply add two more metals, he needed to replace the Temporal Metals - which was also beleived to be part of how he hid a portion of Ruin's power in the unique investiture cycle of the Pits of Hathsin - by tying physical atium to the Metal Tables, used Atium returned to the Pits to create new Geodes, rather than returnign to Ruin in the Spiritual Realm. 

Edited June 19, 2025 by Treamayne
Clarification/SPAG

[DoctaDajman]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

WoBs:

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching cadmium and bendalloy for atium and malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted atium and malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

 

 

That is a factor, but not the only factor aroudn those two specific metals. To retain the "16" Preservation could not simply add two more metals, he needed to replace the Temporal Metals - which was also beleived to be part of how he hid a portion of Ruin's power in the unique investiture cycle of the Pits of Hathsin - by tying physical atium to the Metal Tables, used Atium returned to the Pits to create new Geodes, rather than returnign to Ruin in the Spiritual Realm. 

Does this then mean that Marsh and Demoux both could have atium but it no longer works?  If the table was fixed does that mean that atium as we saw it in Era 1 is dead and gone even if you could refine it from harmonium? 

I guess we haven't seen Death use it but assumed that was because he was preserving it all for the life extention benefits. Perhaps it is that atium became inert after Sazed took over?  

So do you think Thinker is strictly limited to electrum use or do you think he could be holding onto atium beads still only to find that they won't work if he tries to burn them?  

So much has been retconned since a lot of those WoBs that it is hard to draw a line here I think. 

 

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Does this then mean that Marsh and Demoux both could have atium but it no longer works?  If the table was fixed does that mean that atium as we saw it in Era 1 is dead and gone even if you could refine it from harmonium? 

E1Atium works like E1Atium for Marsh and Demoux

Atium recovered from Wax's Experiment had to be changed by Harmony to make it work for Marsh (and, presumably, Demoux).
WoB:

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

At the end of The Lost Metal, we learn that Marsh will be using atium from the ettmetal experiments to stay alive going forward. However, Peter recently revealed (and you confirmed) that the atium in Era 1 which stored youth was actually a mix of atium and electrum. How will this continue to work to keep him young?

Brandon Sanderson

They're going to have a different term for pure atium and for what has been known as atium--what they're making. It is not hard to get the right mix down for what he needs to stay alive. It is hard to make enough of it to keep him alive. Well, not hard, but definitely not scalable to more than one person, how about that. They are able to do it, you've just got to make an alloy.

I will apologize for this. This is a post-Era-1 retcon where I realized I need all the God Metals to do different things, and this is just one of the aspects that comes down. For those who don't know what's going on: I get done with Era 1, I start really working on the nature of metals in the cosmere. I'm like, "Ehhh... Atium really should be burnable by anybody. It's a God Metal. The way God Metals work is not in line with how I've made atium. So what they call atium has to have trace elements of something else, and then there's a pure form of atium out there that would be the true pure God Metal." That is one of those unfortunate retcons when you're doing all this continuity. And it works just fine in the books, because the way that atium is being made is a pretty complicated little process there in the Pits of Hathsin.

The question is the right question. Sazed is going to get out of this pure atium, which he is going to need to tweak before he gives it to Marsh. Whether Marsh knows he is getting a tweaked version or not is subject to your own interpretation.

For arcanist purposes, if you want to call the other one pure atium and the regular one just atium, I'd recommend something like that for your wikis and things like that.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

3 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

So do you think Thinker is strictly limited to electrum use or do you think he could be holding onto atium beads still only to find that they won't work if he tries to burn them? 

Anything is possible, since we still have a missing bag of E1Atium. We know Marsh ended up with the pouch KanPaar tried to sell - but we still do not know what happened to Zane's bag of Atium he recovered from the tree right before his fatal fight with Vin. 

Hope that helps

Edited June 19, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarification

[LewsTherinTelescope]

16 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

So could an electrum allomancer then use proper intent while filled with pure investiture to show other people's shadows instead of their own despite a lack of atium metal to work with?

Oooooh that's a really good question.

I kind of suspect the answer is no for purely meta reasons, because as access to pure Investiture grows suddenly every Misting forces Brandon to reckon with all sixteen God Metals and every Mistborn forces him to reckon with two hundred and fifty-six abilities (and that's not even counting the potential for hybrid God Metals).

I could see something like this, though:

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

So, if an Electrum Misting had burned an Atium/Electrum alloy before, maybe they could replicate it with Intent alone, but I believe it would only be their standard power most if not all the time without some extraordinary circumstances.

When Vin and Elend burned the mists, they don't seem to have gained stores of the unknown metals. Perhaps your soul/body need to "know" a power to be able to use Investiture to fuel it? Burning a metal too much tears cracks in your soul, but maybe you still need to burn it a little to open up a channel for it to flow through at all?

16 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

(Side note, since the retcon is it just assumed that Demoux was actually an electrum allomancer?) 

According to Peter, yep!

Spoiler

Xais56

Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight.

Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal.

Peter Ahlstrom

My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings.

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.

Footnote: It has since been clarified that the effect was revealed on the Table of Allomantic Metals poster and seen at the end of The Hero of Ages.
General Reddit 2021 (Nov. 2, 2021)

 

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Unlikely. Atium had the properties it did in Era 1 because Leras had removed the Temporal Metals (Bendally and Cadmium) from Allomancy and replaced them with E1Atium and Malatium.

According to Peter the "atium Mistings" were really electrum Mistings (see above), so for the sixteen thing to work those old WoBs must be supplanted, no?

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Atium recovered from Wax's Experiment had to be changed by Harmony to make it work for Marsh (and, presumably, Demoux).

He clarifies in the first paragraph of the response that "you've just got to make an alloy", which implies atium-electrum works as it always has.

[DoctaDajman]

7 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

When Vin and Elend burned the mists, they don't seem to have gained stores of the unknown metals. Perhaps your soul/body need to "know" a power to be able to use Investiture to fuel it? Burning a metal too much tears cracks in your soul, but maybe you still need to burn it a little to open up a channel for it to flow through at all?

This is my next question and I will have to read for each time Vin burns the Mist... but does she use or describe using atium while burning mists (which is just Preservation right?). If she does then it would suggest that anyone with access to unkeyed raw Investiture who has experienced burning a god metal or one of its alloys should be able to use that investiture to act as that metal. 

It sounds really wonky but that is the only scene I can think that would give a solid foundation for the theory and possibility. 

My confusion here is that while we know that certain uses of Investiture and forms of Investiture come from different shards but investiture itself is simply power from the Spiritual Realm right? 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

19 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

This is my next question and I will have to read for each time Vin burns the Mist... but does she use or describe using atium while burning mists (which is just Preservation right?).

So there's an odd thing here. In the original version of Hero of Ages, Elend calls out that the mists can't give him atium:

Spoiler

Only atium remained, and the strange power did not—could not—give him this metal.

But this actually got changed (long before the leatherbounds):

Spoiler

Only atium remained, and its strange power did not—could not—give him the other metals.

We still don't see either of them using atium, but the fact Brandon felt the need to go back and get rid of the confirmation they couldn't is curious.

30 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

My confusion here is that while we know that certain uses of Investiture and forms of Investiture come from different shards but investiture itself is simply power from the Spiritual Realm right? 

Investiture itself is still part of a Shard and has Intent and all that. We don't know what the full limits this might or might not impose are, though.

[DoctaDajman]

51 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

So there's an odd thing here. In the original version of Hero of Ages, Elend calls out that the mists can't give him atium:

  Hide contents

Only atium remained, and the strange power did not—could not—give him this metal.

But this actually got changed (long before the leatherbounds):

  Hide contents

Only atium remained, and its strange power did not—could not—give him the other metals.

We still don't see either of them using atium, but the fact Brandon felt the need to go back and get rid of the confirmation they couldn't is curious.

Investiture itself is still part of a Shard and has Intent and all that. We don't know what the full limits this might or might not impose are, though.

Yeah I honestly dont know what to make from that change. The way I am reading it makes me real confused. The first version makes this seem like a clear cut impossibility. The other one mentioned the power not letting him touch any of the other metals?  

So was the "its" mentioned in the second quote speaking of the mist? Why would he say the mist couldn't give him any of the other metals when the mists were being burned in place of all of the other metals before he has the realization of atium. 

Color me confused. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

47 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

So was the "its" mentioned in the second quote speaking of the mist? Why would he say the mist couldn't give him any of the other metals when the mists were being burned in place of all of the other metals before he has the realization of atium. 

In context, I think he's saying atium is the only metal he has left, and atium's power can't give him the other metals. Which... is patently obvious, so I can only assume there was some restriction on how they could edit the line without breaking layout because I can't fathom why Elend would need to point that out.

[DoctaDajman]

19 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In context, I think he's saying atium is the only metal he has left, and atium's power can't give him the other metals. Which... is patently obvious, so I can only assume there was some restriction on how they could edit the line without breaking layout because I can't fathom why Elend would need to point that out.

Unless there was a hack happening at this point also where metals were burning but they all were contributing where they were needed.  No more specific lock just a conduit for any power at all. 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

So there's an odd thing here. In the original version of Hero of Ages, Elend calls out that the mists can't give him atium:

  Hide contents

Only atium remained, and the strange power did not—could not—give him this metal.

But this actually got changed (long before the leatherbounds):

  Hide contents

Only atium remained, and its strange power did not—could not—give him the other metals.

We still don't see either of them using atium, but the fact Brandon felt the need to go back and get rid of the confirmation they couldn't is curious.

It's confusing because you are trying to parse one line out of context. Here's the scene (HoA Ch 81):

Spoiler

A powerful peace swelled in Elend. His Allomancy flared bright, though he knew the metals inside of him should have burned away. Only atium remained, and its strange power did not—could not—give him the other metals. But it didn’t matter. For a moment, he was embraced by something greater. He looked up, toward the sun.

And he saw—just briefly—an enormous figure in the air just above him. A shifting, brilliant personage of pure white. Her hands held to his shoulders with her head thrown back, white hair streaming, mist flaring behind her like wings that stretched across the sky.

Vin, he thought with a smile.

It was changed because "the strange power" could reference Atium or Vin's intervention - so changing pronouns clears up that "Elend has metals, and they cannot be coming from Atium" - but he doesn't know where until he looks up and glimpses Vin. 

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

According to Peter the "atium Mistings" were really electrum Mistings (see above), so for the sixteen thing to work those old WoBs must be supplanted, no?

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Atium recovered from Wax's Experiment had to be changed by Harmony to make it work for Marsh (and, presumably, Demoux).

He clarifies in the first paragraph of the response that "you've just got to make an alloy", which implies atium-electrum works as it always has.

Yes, the WoP - that was my point:

Spoiler

Xais56

Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight.

Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal.

Peter Ahlstrom

My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings.

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.

Footnote: It has since been clarified that the effect was revealed on the Table of Allomantic Metals poster and seen at the end of The Hero of Ages.
General Reddit 2021 (Nov. 2, 2021)

So, Electrum Mistings have, as part of their sDNA/Spiritweb "Electrum Allomancer."  Unkeyed Dor allows a person to use it to fuel aspects of their Spiritweb. 

Seers, burning Atium were gaining a Temporal Effect from the "Ruin investiture" in the Alloy (while the Electrum in the alloy is what allowed them to burn it at all) - so the Temporal Effect of Atium is not part of the Spiritweb, and therefore unlikely to be powered by unkeyed Dor. 

 

Spoiler

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Atium's Mechanism

Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways.

Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin.

This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 1, 2010)

 

So, in theory, If Pure Atium were created by Wax's Expereiment; and if somebody knew the correct Alloy percentages fo Atium and Electrum to create E1Atium - then that would work for both Marsh and Demoux even if it were lab created. But, I think it is unlikely that a random non-Ruin unkeyed investiture could mimic the effect of raw or alloy Ruin Investiture.

There may be a way to convert it, but I think this is one of the corner cases where having raw unkeyed investiture cannot be used to power a specific effect. They could get all of the Electrum shadows they wanted this way - but not Atium Shadows.

Hope that helps.

Edited June 19, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[LewsTherinTelescope]

54 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It's confusing because you are trying to parse one line out of context. Here's the scene (HoA Ch 81):

  Hide contents

A powerful peace swelled in Elend. His Allomancy flared bright, though he knew the metals inside of him should have burned away. Only atium remained, and its strange power did not—could not—give him the other metals. But it didn’t matter. For a moment, he was embraced by something greater. He looked up, toward the sun.

And he saw—just briefly—an enormous figure in the air just above him. A shifting, brilliant personage of pure white. Her hands held to his shoulders with her head thrown back, white hair streaming, mist flaring behind her like wings that stretched across the sky.

Vin, he thought with a smile.

It was changed because "the strange power" could reference Atium or Vin's intervention - so changing pronouns clears up that "Elend has metals, and they cannot be coming from Atium" - but he doesn't know where until he looks up and glimpses Vin. 

The change from "the" to "its" isn't alone the weird part. The revision also changed "did not—could not—give him this metal" to "did not—could not—give him the other metals". The original line says the mists can't give him atium (WoB supporting that read), but Brandon later deliberately removed that confirmation, which raises the question of whether maybe he changed his mind and they can fuel it like any other Allomancy after all.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Seers, burning Atium were gaining a Temporal Effect from the "Ruin investiture" in the Alloy (while the Electrum in the alloy is what allowed them to burn it at all) - so the Temporal Effect of Atium is not part of the Spiritweb, and therefore unlikely to be powered by unkeyed Dor. 

This is a plausible argument to me, but I'm confused how that relates to what you were saying above about the old cadmium-swap WoBs? That was the part I was disagreeing with—if they were just electrum Mistings, the swap is no longer necessary (which explains some... confusing... statements on the topic).

I could go either way on the core question of whether pure Dor could fuel the effect or not.

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

This is a plausible argument to me, but I'm confused how that relates to what you were saying above about the old cadmium-swap WoBs?

I was talking about the swap in response to the "why are Cadmium and Bendalloy not on Era 1 charts" - they were not Allomantic metals during the final Empire because they had been swapped out. 

5 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Brandon later deliberately removed that confirmation, which raises the question of whether maybe he changed his mind and they can fuel it like any other Allomancy after all.

There's a WoB for that as well - at least a heavy implication that Ruin's investiture can power Allomancy, and Preservation's can power Hemalurgy - just not well. 

Spoiler

Czanos

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

Brandon Sanderson

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Hope that helps.

[DoctaDajman]

12 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I was talking about the swap in response to the "why are Cadmium and Bendalloy not on Era 1 charts" - they were not Allomantic metals during the final Empire because they had been swapped out. 

There's a WoB for that as well - at least a heavy implication that Ruin's investiture can power Allomancy, and Preservation's can power Hemalurgy - just not well. 

  Hide contents

Czanos

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

Brandon Sanderson

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Hope that helps.

Is this a shard thing specific to the metallic arts? If I understand correctly, hemalurgy was 100% ruin and allomancy was 100% preservation. So being able to power one or the other should be possible for any shard no? I know that certain shards are pseudo connected but they still have their own systems right? 

I guess I am asking, couldn't any shard be inserted into that WoB? 2008 what other shards did we really have confirmed for cosmere purposes? Most of these WoBs are digging back far far before Brandon had truly started fleshing out the cosmere. 

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

2008 what other shards did we really have confirmed for cosmere purposes? Most of these WoBs are digging back far far before Brandon had truly started fleshing out the cosmere. 

Endowment with Warbreaker (Print copy wasn't published until 2009, but the free book was published chapter-by chapter as he wrote it starting Jan 2008.

7 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Is this a shard thing specific to the metallic arts? If I understand correctly, hemalurgy was 100% ruin and allomancy was 100% preservation.

It's likely that it's ~98% on those and the mingling is a factor in how they made the world together - and how MoIs develop in the first place (which is a natural consequence of World + Shard + Intent - not generally a concious decision by one or more shards). WoB:

Spoiler

Agate

I can guess two possible options for the kandra.

1. God Sazed endowed the gift of presence on the now mistwraiths.

2. Some of the kandra survived in the cave with the Terrisman and people of the city, along with the small mistwraiths, these are re-born with the spikes they pulled out during the resolution.

I can imagine too that some kandra on assignment may have hidden in the shelters with the rest of humanity.

Brandon Sanderson

The kandra.

Yes, they live. The people were smart enough, eventually, to replace their spikes. (And there were a couple who were on assignment who made it to storage caches.)

However, there will likely never be any more of them, since Hemalurgy is required to make them. They are now some of the few people who can communicate directly with Sazed, who—like Ruin—can whisper to people most easily when they are connected to him via spikes. With some speculation, you can probably guess what kind of roles the kandra will end up playing in future books.

Kaimipono

On a broader level, is Hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?)

Brandon Sanderson

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

8 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

So being able to power one or the other should be possible for any shard no?

Not based on known data - but it's inconclusive, not a definitive no.