Just finished the 7th book (mistborn). umm...why did this have to happen?

[baffly]

Isn't God supposed to be like super smart or something?

Its not that Waynes death could have been avoided its that you need to work really hard for Wayne to DIE!!!

Bendalloy? Lerasium?

Allow me to introduce the alomantic powers of a "wrench in the engine room".

Or a knife in the fuel line...

Or moving the ship so it will keep sailing until a cadmium reserve could be reached and transported.

Or the myriad other solutions that are out there which are much more abundant than the solution where Wayne is dying.

Its like 99 course of actions Wayne survives and 1 he dies and God has told him to take  the only one that involves suicide.

 

 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I think you are underestimating the precariousness of the situation Wayne was in.

There was less than twenty minutes before the boat hit Elendel and exploded, Wayne is not an engineer despite sometimes pretending to be, the ship was locked onto its trajectory by the crew before they killed themselves, I doubt cutting the fuel line would be fast enough to stop the ship's momentum and a Cadmium Bubble can't stretch across the whole ship, and before you say it, Duralumin won't increase the size of the bubble, just the level of time dilation so that won't help either.

And worst of all, Harmony was blinded by Autonomy during all of this, he couldn't even see the bomb itself until Wax was right in front of it. So even Harmony couldn't just tell them "Cut this line to stop the boat" or anything like that because he literally can't see it.

Harmony did suggest that Wayne could hop off the boat and use a massive Steelpush to hold the boat back to buy some time, but that only had a 1-in-100 chance of working without detonating the bomb, and I highly doubt the other suggestions you've made would be much better.

The only guaranteed way to prevent Elendel from being blown sky high, was for Wayne to do exactly what he did, especially since he was literally the only person in the entire Cosmere who is skilled enough with Allomantic Bendalloy to create a Speedbubble with a specific shape.

 

[Denissimo He/him]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I think you are underestimating the precariousness of the situation Wayne was in.

There was less than twenty minutes before the boat hit Elendel and exploded, Wayne is not an engineer despite sometimes pretending to be, the ship was locked onto its trajectory by the crew before they killed themselves, I doubt cutting the fuel line would be fast enough to stop the ship's momentum and a Cadmium Bubble can't stretch across the whole ship, and before you say it, Duralumin won't increase the size of the bubble, just the level of time dilation so that won't help either.

And worst of all, Harmony was blinded by Autonomy during all of this, he couldn't even see the bomb itself until Wax was right in front of it. So even Harmony couldn't just tell them "Cut this line to stop the boat" or anything like that because he literally can't see it.

Harmony did suggest that Wayne could hop off the boat and use a massive Steelpush to hold the boat back to buy some time, but that only had a 1-in-100 chance of working without detonating the bomb, and I highly doubt the other suggestions you've made would be much better.

The only guaranteed way to prevent Elendel from being blown sky high, was for Wayne to do exactly what he did, especially since he was literally the only person in the entire Cosmere who is skilled enough with Allomantic Bendalloy to create a Speedbubble with a specific shape.

 

Yes, I think this is the most complete and accurate answer.
However, allow me to provide an additional theory, not that it needs it.
Harmony was also, at this point, undergoing some internal turmoil. His intent had begun to change around this time, so says the coppermind: The intents of ruin and preservation that governed the shard Harmony were beginning to conflict, and his intent was beginning to shift to discord.
This, I believe, also made it more and more difficult to directly intervene in situations which required only one of the intents: creation requires both ruin and preservation, but something like stopping a bomb... this was of preservation and only preservation. SO perhaps part of the reason Wayne had to die was so there was an aspect of ruin in his choice.

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

And this is ignoring the fact that the entire ship was rigged up with a deadman's switch: changing the direction of the ship would trigger the bomb, and it's likely that any sort of tampering with the engines (which would be too little too late; see above) would almost certainly be detected.

[baffly]

Fisrt of all WOW, it is so nice to have a response from a human being on this topic, I'm so tired of chatgpt agreeing with me and not counteracting my arguments.

Second of all, you actually raise a good point (even though I'm still right and hopefully will prove my point)- God is blind. Okay...

Still.
Even if Sazed didn't see that particular ship at this particular moment surely he knew how steam ships operate. It is not a new technology and he had  at least several years to know where generally are engine rooms.

Hell, you know what? forget the engine,like you said the ship has a momentum (and while it is indeed a point I missed- I doubt the momentum is THAT strong for the ship to keep sailing forward much despite its engines not working. Its not space... nevertheless, lets assume I'm wrong)... So God is so oblivious to shipping technology that he doesn't know how such a vessel steers itself? Like a fin or the direction of a turbine? 

He cant tell wax to  increase its weight (or were his metalminds empty? I don't remember) and push the ship from down below? He cant tell Wayne to make duralamin steel push to the nearest platform where Wayne will get steel from the natives or from the Kandras whom god will direct to Wayne? (Hell, if he can talk to Wayne then he probably can talk with the autistic broad and heave this mission on her shoulders. No?) Then Wayne makes duralamin super push from the shore and steer the ship just a little bit. Not holding it back, I get it 1 in a 100, but gently change the trajectory of the ship by a few degrees.
(Throwing Wax off was stupid as well since he could make things much easier by being in comunication with god and giving Wayne feedback about his efforts...)

Those are just things that come of the top of my mind, WITHOUT knowing that world on a native level like Sazed or The heroic duo would have... there are tons of other soultions I can think of.

 

As for the Cadmium- increase the size of the bubble? what? Wasn't even thinkning about it. No need to engulf the THE SHIP!
The electricity!
All you need to do is to super charge your tiny pulser bubble to slow down the electric flow between the bombs and cut the wires.
 If that is dangerous (some convoluted dead mans switch against pulsers which I doubt Sanderson meant or thought of) and you have to put Wayne in danger then engulf the whole bomb and let the ship hit the shore.
Then you have a billion years to try to think of a solution while wayne and the bomb are frozen in stasis. Maybe god will heal by then and think of something. Maybe you can throw a pulser grenade (or several) and pull wayne out of the buble. Maybe you can have your own atomic bomb to threaten your enemies. Maybe... whatever. Just buy time. Either the donkey will be dead, the sultan could be dead or I will have died! So why worry?

 

 

 

 

 

On 6/15/2025 at 7:37 AM, Denisimo said:

Yes, I think this is the most complete and accurate answer.
However, allow me to provide an additional theory, not that it needs it.
Harmony was also, at this point, undergoing some internal turmoil. His intent had begun to change around this time, so says the coppermind: The intents of ruin and preservation that governed the shard Harmony were beginning to conflict, and his intent was beginning to shift to discord.
This, I believe, also made it more and more difficult to directly intervene in situations which required only one of the intents: creation requires both ruin and preservation, but something like stopping a bomb... this was of preservation and only preservation. SO perhaps part of the reason Wayne had to die was so there was an aspect of ruin in his choice.

So gods advices are also actions? Okay,he is conflicted and cant act. He cant even use his intelligence. Fine, i accept it.

Then I guess Wax or Wayne should have thought of this by themselves, it is so simple!

Also, actually... then how he could converse with Wayne about... well anything including the vials?

 

23 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

And this is ignoring the fact that the entire ship was rigged up with a deadman's switch: changing the direction of the ship would trigger the bomb, and it's likely that any sort of tampering with the engines (which would be too little too late; see above) would almost certainly be detected.

 Isnt a deadmans switch is just about disconnecting the device from the electric current? How would changing the direction activate it? Its not like they had GPS technology or even a flywheel. Considering how hastily they had prepared the rig, would they have the time for something so convoluted?

 

Hell, you know what? Lets say the deadmans switch is that sophisticated. Then why not jumping to the city, take a couple of grenades (or a shahid pulser) and do the same thing wayne did throw water on the bomb and jump away (if possible with the rope you tied to the kamikadze beforehand so he will have a second mission  ).

[Denissimo He/him]

17 minutes ago, baffly said:

Fisrt of all WOW, it is so nice to have a response from a human being on this topic, I'm so tired of chatgpt agreeing with me and not counteracting my arguments.

Second of all, you actually raise a good point (even though I'm still right and hopefully will prove my point)- God is blind. Okay...

Still.
Even if Sazed didn't see that particular ship at this particular moment surely he knew how steam ships operate. It is not a new technology and he had  at least several years to know where generally are engine rooms.

Hell, you know what? forget the engine,like you said the ship has a momentum (and while it is indeed a point I missed- I doubt the momentum is THAT strong for the ship to keep sailing forward much despite its engines not working. Its not space... nevertheless, lets assume I'm wrong)... So God is so oblivious to shipping technology that he doesn't know how such a vessel steers itself? Like a fin or the direction of a turbine? 

He cant tell wax to  increase its weight (or were his metalminds empty? I don't remember) and push the ship from down below? He cant tell Wayne to make duralamin steel push to the nearest platform where Wayne will get steel from the natives or from the Kandras whom god will direct to Wayne? (Hell, if he can talk to Wayne then he probably can talk with the autistic broad and heave this mission on her shoulders. No?) Then Wayne makes duralamin super push from the shore and steer the ship just a little bit. Not holding it back, I get it 1 in a 100, but gently change the trajectory of the ship by a few degrees.
(Throwing Wax off was stupid as well since he could make things much easier by being in comunication with god and giving Wayne feedback about his efforts...)

Those are just things that come of the top of my mind, WITHOUT knowing that world on a native level like Sazed or The heroic duo would have... there are tons of other soultions I can think of.

 

As for the Cadmium- increase the size of the bubble? what? Wasn't even thinkning about it. No need to engulf the THE SHIP!
The electricity!
All you need to do is to super charge your tiny pulser bubble to slow down the electric flow between the bombs and cut the wires.
 If that is dangerous (some convoluted dead mans switch against pulsers which I doubt Sanderson meant or thought of) and you have to put Wayne in danger then engulf the whole bomb and let the ship hit the shore.
Then you have a billion years to try to think of a solution while wayne and the bomb are frozen in stasis. Maybe god will heal by then and think of something. Maybe you can throw a pulser grenade (or several) and pull wayne out of the buble. Maybe you can have your own atomic bomb to threaten your enemies. Maybe... whatever. Just buy time. Either the donkey will be dead, the sultan could be dead or I will have died! So why worry?

 

 

 

 

 

So gods advices are also actions? Okay,he is conflicted and cant act. He cant even use his intelligence. Fine, i accept it.

Then I guess Wax or Wayne should have thought of this by themselves, it is so simple!

Also, actually... then how he could converse with Wayne about... well anything including the vials?

 

 Isnt a deadmans switch is just about disconnecting the device from the electric current? How would changing the direction activate it? Its not like they had GPS technology or even a flywheel. Considering how hastily they had prepared the rig, would they have the time for something so convoluted?

 

Hell, you know what? Lets say the deadmans switch is that sophisticated. Then why not jumping to the city, take a couple of grenades (or a shahid pulser) and do the same thing wayne did throw water on the bomb and jump away (if possible with the rope you tied to the kamikadze beforehand so he will have a second mission  ).

To reply to your counter arguemetn to my counter arguement (your counter-counter-arguement?), a God or Shards INTENT is not the same as their advice.
their Intent essentially controls what they can use their powers for; e.g. preservation had the power to destroy; he had just as much investiture as ruin. But his intent, which is of. peservation only allows him to preserve.

Also, I'm not saying it was impossible; just difficult, and his ruinic intent was likely influencying his actions, potentially making him choose a more destructive option.
This is just replying to your counter to MY counter, I'll let the others continue with their counters.

Also, the water-thing didn;t HALT the explosion, just lessen it to only destroy the airship: i am not sure if he could have gotten away in time.

Edited June 16, 2025 by Denisimo

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

3 hours ago, baffly said:

Hell, you know what? forget the engine,like you said the ship has a momentum (and while it is indeed a point I missed- I doubt the momentum is THAT strong for the ship to keep sailing forward much despite its engines not working. Its not space... nevertheless, lets assume I'm wrong)... So God is so oblivious to shipping technology that he doesn't know how such a vessel steers itself? Like a fin or the direction of a turbine? 

The rudder of a ship isn't exposed, and would be too difficult to access. Additionally, since we know that the ship's steering was rigged to the deadman's switch (which merely entails running a wire to a sensor on the helm (which we see) and on the rudder). Changing the steering was not an option.

4 hours ago, baffly said:

All you need to do is to super charge your tiny pulser bubble to slow down the electric flow between the bombs and cut the wires.

Nope, the harmonium will split. The issue here is that if you don't defuse the bombs themselves, they detect the wire being cut due to not relieving the pulse, and then they go off. Even if you cut all three wires inside the bubble before a single bomb detonates, the bombs will still notice not receiving their pulses.

5 hours ago, baffly said:

Those are just things that come of the top of my mind, WITHOUT knowing that world on a native level like Sazed or The heroic duo would have... there are tons of other soultions I can think of.

Mind sharing? Remember, the ship is functionally under lockdown. Tamper with any part of it, the bomb goes off. Tamper with a barrel, the other two go off. Even if you somehow slowed down the ship enough that it didn't reach Elendel (which you couldn't, at least not to a degree large enough to matter - heavy objects like the ship carry a lot of momentum), the bomb is still on a timer (as implied by the fact that the harmonium had already been removed from the oil bath to be heated when Wayne reached the bomb). 

5 hours ago, baffly said:

If that is dangerous (some convoluted dead mans switch against pulsers which I doubt Sanderson meant or thought of) and you have to put Wayne in danger then engulf the whole bomb and let the ship hit the shore.

This is the best strategy you've though of, but the Duralinium required would cause the bubble to last a very brief period of time, and Wayne didn't have enough Cadmium to make it work anyway. Remember how much Bendalloy he needed for what he did? The vials only contained small amounts of all sixteen metals.

5 hours ago, baffly said:

So gods advices are also actions? Okay,he is conflicted and cant act. He cant even use his intelligence. Fine, i accept it.

Then I guess Wax or Wayne should have thought of this by themselves, it is so simple!

Also, actually... then how he could converse with Wayne about... well anything including the vials?

I don't want to touch on this one too heavily, because I don't think it's necessary to explain what's going on, but your response is a textbook slippery slope fallacy. You take "He has to mix Ruin and Preservation, due to the conflicting powers" and make it "He can't do jack squat."

5 hours ago, baffly said:

Isnt a deadmans switch is just about disconnecting the device from the electric current? How would changing the direction activate it? Its not like they had GPS technology or even a flywheel. Considering how hastily they had prepared the rig, would they have the time for something so convoluted?

Check your sources.

It states explicitly in the book that tampering with the steering triggers the bomb. There is every reason to assume that they hooked up the deadman's switch to other critical systems, and the ship being "rushed" means that they still had several days, possibly over a week. If that's enough time to retrofit the steering, it's enough time to add detectors to every critical system.

5 hours ago, baffly said:

Hell, you know what? Lets say the deadmans switch is that sophisticated. Then why not jumping to the city, take a couple of grenades (or a shahid pulser) and do the same thing wayne did throw water on the bomb and jump away (if possible with the rope you tied to the kamikadze beforehand so he will have a second mission  ).

Okay, so your plan is "Wayne leaves the ship using a Duralinium-fueled Steelpush, somehow manages to aim accurately, gets a bunch of pulser grenades (or a pulser) from Elendel, returns to the ship using a fresh restock of Duralinium and Steel, does the exact same thing that he did anyway but from a slightly further range, without Duralinium (which was necessary in the first place), somehow doesn't die from the explosion, and gets pulled away by a rope, all in under twenty minutes."

I would offer the thought that this plan has several notable flaws.

[Returned he/him]

The most succinct answer to your (OP's) position is that Harmony is as smart as you imagine and so all of these potential approaches would not work for various reasons specific to each one. The plans that Harmony executed were the best ones possible given the constraints he faced, whether or not we are aware of the problems with particular alternative ideas.

The answers to several of your initial ideas might make one a bit less confident that the situation had multiple solutions which were obvious, simple, reliable, and effective. Wayne's in-universe goal was specifically to prevent the bomb going off in a way which would destroy Elendel. Wayne's narrative arc all but required him to save others through self-sacrifice, especially with his powers. No one's primary goal was to keep Wayne alive, nor to risk Elendel's destruction more than they absolutely had to, nor was there time nor capability to bring in additional resources. The only ways Wayne easily survives involve being OK with the city being annihilated, which Wayne very much was not.

[Nitpicking]

I can think of one way Wayne could perhaps survive.

If he was Mistborn ... he's able to burn gold. He could charge up a goldmind and burn it, thus getting Miles Hundredlives-style superhealing.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

34 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I can think of one way Wayne could perhaps survive.

If he was Mistborn ... he's able to burn gold. He could charge up a goldmind and burn it, thus getting Miles Hundredlives-style superhealing.

He didn't have enough time to charge it up

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

41 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I can think of one way Wayne could perhaps survive.

If he was Mistborn ... he's able to burn gold. He could charge up a goldmind and burn it, thus getting Miles Hundredlives-style superhealing.

Huh, that might actually work - if he had time to plan. As it stood, I doubt he had nearly enough gold to compound enough. Three Harmonium explosions really take it out of you.

[baffly]

On 6/16/2025 at 5:44 AM, Denisimo said:

To reply to your counter arguemetn to my counter arguement (your counter-counter-arguement?), a God or Shards INTENT is not the same as their advice.
their Intent essentially controls what they can use their powers for; e.g. preservation had the power to destroy; he had just as much investiture as ruin. But his intent, which is of. peservation only allows him to preserve.

Also, I'm not saying it was impossible; just difficult, and his ruinic intent was likely influencying his actions, potentially making him choose a more destructive option.
This is just replying to your counter to MY counter, I'll let the others continue with their counters.
 

Wait, for real? Then this is so much OP. Sure, not on a Supersaiyan kind of way but enough for our purpose. a super smart being with an (inter?) planetary communication device (even if it is not at full capacity at the moment) and a vast pool of knowledge for him to draw from? That is almost Asimovesque.

The AI we fantasize about when we use the pathetic worthless parodies we have now.

Hell with his "super powers", in this scenario Sazed is a deus ex machina enough.

On 6/16/2025 at 5:44 AM, Denisimo said:

Also, the water-thing didn;t HALT the explosion, just lessen it to only destroy the airship: i am not sure if he could have gotten away in time.

Yeah yeah, I didnt mean it would halt the explosion. I meant to do the same thing Wayne did, but not like an idiot. To my understanding his time is infinite. Especially if you have a proper coordinator in the form of god.

The blind god is almost omnipotent.

 

On 6/16/2025 at 11:01 AM, NerdyAarakocra said:

The rudder of a ship isn't exposed, and would be too difficult to access. 

"Rudder"! Thats the word, not "fin". 

It isn't exposed? How would such a contraption work and steer water? From every documentary I have seen on shipbuilding- yes it is. But fine, lets assume it isn't and lets assume god does not know anything about shipbuilding and can't tell of any weak points of how to bend such rudder. (seriously? that is what i meant by saying god is supposed to be super smart with lots of knowledge but acts like a buffoon.)

On 6/16/2025 at 11:01 AM, NerdyAarakocra said:

Additionally, since we know that the ship's steering was rigged to the deadman's switch (which merely entails running a wire to a sensor on the helm (which we see) and on the rudder). Changing the steering was not an option

Ah, but wasn't it? 

Yes, the deadmans switch was wired for the control panel, but how does THE CONTROL PANEL knows what is going on?

I suspect that even TODAY the controll panel can detect only the shaft to which the rudder is connected to. No one has thought of measuring if the metal plank is straight or not. With the 20's technology Sanderson describes in the book  Im not sure it is even possible.

if you bend the edges of this metal fin just slightly then it is enough for the ship to veer off in a compeletely different direction.

But fine, we have already decided god is not a shipbuilder so he doesnt know how those things work. next.

On 6/16/2025 at 11:01 AM, NerdyAarakocra said:

Nope, the harmonium will split. The issue here is that if you don't defuse the bombs themselves, they detect the wire being cut due to not relieving the pulse, and then they go off. Even if you cut all three wires inside the bubble before a single bomb detonates, the bombs will still notice not receiving their pulses.

Yeah, you do have a point, I should have seen it myself. the slow time between the wires is like cutting them. A great tool (like for bank robberies and the like), but not for this specific problem.

However... actually... you just gave me a new idea- why not create a bubble around the mechanism that TRIGGERS the bomb itself? But fine, i see how it could be dangerous, so lets leave it for the time being. Next.

 

On 6/16/2025 at 11:01 AM, NerdyAarakocra said:

Mind sharing? Remember, the ship is functionally under lockdown. Tamper with any part of it, the bomb goes off. Tamper with a barrel, the other two go off. Even if you somehow slowed down the ship enough that it didn't reach Elendel (which you couldn't, at least not to a degree large enough to matter - heavy objects like the ship carry a lot of momentum), the bomb is still on a timer (as implied by the fact that the harmonium had already been removed from the oil bath to be heated when Wayne reached the bomb). 

Uhhh... Sorry, English is not my native so I could be missing something here, but "Mind sharing"? What do you mean by that?

Anyway as for the rest of the message-
BUT THATS MY POINT!!!!! The barrel themselves! Engulf them in a slow time bubble! like really really really slow time bubble. A Duralamin bubble! Let them explode! Youll have an explosion in a bottle. ( You know like those scientist that trapped light in a super frozen state some years back). Carry that bottle with you and do what you want with it (throw it into space, threaten the maelwish to release it, whatever....

 

On 6/16/2025 at 11:01 AM, NerdyAarakocra said:

This is the best strategy you've though of, but the Duralinium required would cause the bubble to last a very brief period of time, and Wayne didn't have enough Cadmium to make it work anyway. Remember how much Bendalloy he needed for what he did? The vials only contained small amounts of all sixteen metals.

Ahhh!, But that is what some of my strategies are about.

20mins until detonation.

1. Duralamin super push yourself to Elendel.

2. Bendalloy to move super fast. Ask god where are his servants\allies\anyone that can help.

19 mins.

3. Locate them and ask for reserves of metals including cadmuim and steel and anything the city can muster.

17 mins.

Super push yourself and your resources (metals, grenades, kamikadze pulsers, anyone else willing to help (would be nice to have Wax around as well))

16 mins.

Put your plan into action. ( I have MANY plans, those that I mentioned are just the tip, and that is why I was so upset on how such a smart super being is being so stupid).

 

 

Now, and this might be a point i missed- You tell me that for Marasi  to speed up time she needs to burn cadmium all the time? Hmm... So.... How did Duralamin helped Wayne in his retarded suicide? Like for him the time acted normal, while for everyone else it was one moment, right? So why would the inverse not work? Yes, for Wayne and the bomb it would be one moment but for everyone else it would be an eon.

Sure, it is still a risky endeavor for Wayne and it would be better to use actually safe methods (which I thought of :)), but it is sure as hell a lot better than what HE did.

On 6/16/2025 at 11:01 AM, NerdyAarakocra said:

I don't want to touch on this one too heavily, because I don't think it's necessary to explain what's going on, but your response is a textbook slippery slope fallacy. You take "He has to mix Ruin and Preservation, due to the conflicting powers" and make it "He can't do jack squat."

Well, actually that wasn't me saying that, I was just conceding and willing to work withing this framework. My initial thought was- "He is GOD ! Simply magick it away, for Sazed  sake"... Then the ideas started to flow in and I just gave myself to the river :)...

On 6/16/2025 at 11:01 AM, NerdyAarakocra said:

It states explicitly in the book that tampering with the steering triggers the bomb. There is every reason to assume that they hooked up the deadman's switch to other critical systems, and the ship being "rushed" means that they still had several days, possibly over a week. If that's enough time to retrofit the steering, it's enough time to add detectors to every critical system.

1. ?

Several days? I kinda assumed the had several minutes after seeing how Wax has broken their defences. 

2. hmmm... Like... if they did have several days then theoretically they could rig not only the stirring but also add sensors to their systems... but... would they?  

I mean to think that the enemy will discover them and decide to bend the rudder in order to make the ship steer off... And then actually do something about that? IDK,from my limited experience normal people just don't do those type of things. I do, but I'm not normal, and it takes much much much MUCH more than a few days to prepare for all eventualities. Try few years. They were hurrying, they had a very tight deadline... People, just don't work like that.

It is far more likely that the simply attached the bomb to the stirring mechanism but left all other systems alone.

But fine, I can to work in that framework as well. 

How about then, when Wayne comes back with the resources, he'll bring several ship mechanics along? That way, he and the other allomancers could pull the ship apart and let the mechanics dismantle any sensor and then stop the ship. All this under heavy cover of a duralamin shifter bubble of course.

On 6/16/2025 at 11:01 AM, NerdyAarakocra said:

Okay, so your plan is "Wayne leaves the ship using a Duralinium-fueled Steelpush, somehow manages to aim accurately, gets a bunch of pulser grenades (or a pulser) from Elendel, returns to the ship using a fresh restock of Duralinium and Steel, does the exact same thing that he did anyway but from a slightly further range, without Duralinium (which was necessary in the first place), somehow doesn't die from the explosion, and gets pulled away by a rope, all in under twenty minutes."

Not exactly,no.

The version I offered here (I have several versions) is:

1. Wayne leaves the ship with a duralamin steel push and hits Elendel using the same logic as how Wax jumped off the tower and managed to land on the tiny spec (well, relatively speaking) that is the ship. If the ship is too far then wait until it comes closer.

2. Get stocks of metals, pulser grenades and a pulser, yes.

3. Returns to the ship with them

4. The pulser put a slow bubble around the bom- Ahhhhhhhhh... I see it now. The barrels have their electricity cut out and explode.

Alright, that is okay, one of my other plans does something similar. 

How about this- Wayne puts a charge that is connected to a barrel of water. all the charges go at the same time and all the harmonium explode. all this is surrounded by a slow time bubble from multiple grenades?

Wayne jumps off...

As a safeguard i would have put a metal platform underneath the contraption (grenades and barrels) and duralmin push them into space after he harmonium is being exploded. Just in case if something goes wrong. (preferably if Wax is present to assist). 

 

Now that I think about it... Ummmm... Waxes sister is not very smart, is she...

Why would the Set need to experiment Nazi Germany style on their faux rocket when they have MAGICK!!!!!

Yeah, IRL, Scadrial is screwed.

On 6/16/2025 at 11:01 AM, NerdyAarakocra said:

I would offer the thought that this plan has several notable flaws.

Good, that is what I would want to hear of Sazed and chatgpt.

On 6/16/2025 at 12:15 PM, Returned said:

The most succinct answer to your (OP's) position is that Harmony is as smart as you imagine and so all of these potential approaches would not work for various reasons specific to each one. The plans that Harmony executed were the best ones possible given the constraints he faced, whether or not we are aware of the problems with particular alternative ideas.

The answers to several of your initial ideas might make one a bit less confident that the situation had multiple solutions which were obvious, simple, reliable, and effective. Wayne's in-universe goal was specifically to prevent the bomb going off in a way which would destroy Elendel. Wayne's narrative arc all but required him to save others through self-sacrifice, especially with his powers. No one's primary goal was to keep Wayne alive, nor to risk Elendel's destruction more than they absolutely had to, nor was there time nor capability to bring in additional resources. The only ways Wayne easily survives involve being OK with the city being annihilated, which Wayne very much was not.

Well, and that is why I came here, to hear the flaws in my plans because I see so many possible solutions with EVERYONE being alive and hale. including Wayne.

(or to hear condemnation towards Sanderson and his sloppy cobbling of the narrative, I guess that could be a consolation prize). 

21 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

If he was Mistborn ... he's able to burn gold. He could charge up a goldmind and burn it, thus getting Miles Hundredlives-style superhealing.

 

21 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

He didn't have enough time to charge it up

 

21 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Huh, that might actually work - if he had time to plan. As it stood, I doubt he had nearly enough gold to compound enough. Three Harmonium explosions really take it out of you.

I obviously searched my question in google first and this approach was debunked in quite a few threads here and on reddit. I dont recall the entire discussion but tl;dr such an explosion would disintegrate the metal minds. Harmonium+Trellium is modern mega atomic bomb, but harmonium alone is like an early atomic bomb. Or that was my understanding from those discussions.

[Nitpicking]

17 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

He didn't have enough time to charge it up

With bendalloy?

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

22 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

With bendalloy?

He didn't have enough time and materials to charge up the Gold feruchemy and then use gold allomancy in that short amount of time with his limited Bendalloy on his person.

It would take signifigant prep and planning to have enough time and reasources, of which he did not have enough of.

[Duxredux he/him]

Let's talk about Sazed's sight - because even under normal circumstances he would have been blind to the details of the Set ship made of steel. Metal glows brightly to Scadrial's Shards - so brightly that it obscures their vision. Ruin could not see words etched on metal or the location of the Trustwarren. Even without the interference from Autonomy, the level of detail needed for the kind of fine calculations you're thinking of may have been difficult or impossible for Sazed. To give you an idea of just how blind Sazed is at this point, he can't even tell how much Bendalloy Wayne has on him until he pulls it all out. Sazed was using his direct Connection to Wax and Wayne as new Hemalurgists to see with their senses. Let's add that to the twenty minute clock, that he needs Wax and Wayne to directly investigate the nature of the Set's supersized torpedo for resources to use or vulnerabilities to exploit. Also... Sazed is not in good shape, it's hard for him to make decisions period and the extent of interference he managed was communication and disrupting Telsin's Connection to Autonomy. His future sight is compromised enough that he's not certain on the outcome and probabilities.  

Next, the ship. This is the Pewternaught, the largest warship designed in the basin made of steel. For those interested, the Coppermind notes that in specifications it's analogous to the HMS Dreadnought, a 500 ft long battleship that when fully loaded may have the lowest point nearly 30 feet below water. Let's have that be a major consideration for sabotaging the ship, its steering, or propulsion systems - those are known weaknesses and would have been heavily reinforced long before the bomb was installed.

I'll also note that the scope of the explosion was so much bigger than the Set had anticipated, that Sazed thought it might have wiped out not only Elendel but out a hundred miles out to Bilming as well. Maybe even igniting the atmosphere. If the ship hits anything it goes off. Whatever they've since calculated on Reddit or elsewhere as to the feasibility of igniting the atmosphere is separate, it's the intel they had at the time. Duralumin-Enhanced Cadmium to delay the full explosion is out - buying a few years only to let the world ignite is not a great solution (good luck launching a steel battleship into space as well).  Now I'm not saying it's impossible to alter the rudder or turbines with Duralumin enhanced Allomancy, but asking Wayne to do that underwater and then getting back onto the ship as it chugs away at 24 miles per hour so he can do the water dump trick? Goooood luck.

As for Wayne Duralumin Steelpushing to Elendel... do they even have enough Steel for that? It wouldn't surprise me if Wax burned most of his stash just getting to the ship in the first place. Yes, I know the ship is made out of steel. No, I don't think Allomancer's Steel which is iron with a pinch of carbon is viable for marine applications, so let's not look at scavenging Allomantic Steel from the ship, particularly as there was no mention of Coinshots resisting them. Also, this is Wayne, not Wax. Wayne who is incredibly unpracticed, has terrible aim and just barely got his Coinshot abilities. Compared to possibly the most accurate marksman in the Cosmere. Let's also add in Wax's lesson he reiterates that he needs height to lob the shot - which is why he went looking for the rocket on the top of the tower and was able to get the distance he needed - compared to launching from sea level to Elendel.

For the people asking about Wayne surviving the water and Harmonium explosion with Feruchemical healing, Wax specifically says it's not something he could survive even with full metalminds. Take that for whatever it's worth.

And... I'm just guessing that literal end of the world doomsday clock generally stresses people out, not having experienced it myself. I'd give Wax, Wayne, and Sazed a bone for thinking as clearly as they did. It wouldn't surprise me if Sazed had been counting on the Bands of Mourning to bail them out of a catastrophe and learned only minutes before from TenSoon that they were inoperable.

Edited June 17, 2025 by Duxredux
clarity

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

Sigh

Warning: Rant incoming. To avoid clogging up the thread, the post has been spoilered.

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Spoiler

9 hours ago, baffly said:

Wait, for real? Then this is so much OP. Sure, not on a Supersaiyan kind of way but enough for our purpose. a super smart being with an (inter?) planetary communication device (even if it is not at full capacity at the moment) and a vast pool of knowledge for him to draw from? That is almost Asimovesque.

The AI we fantasize about when we use the pathetic worthless parodies we have now.

Hell with his "super powers", in this scenario Sazed is a deus ex machina enough.

None of this makes any sense in the context, moving on:

9 hours ago, baffly said:

The blind god is almost omnipotent.

Not true, and the biggest assumption that you're making that you really shouldn't be. Shards are quite limited in their power to actually affect the world [Citation: literally every cosmere novel], and Autonomy's haze only makes Harmony more vulnerable. You can say that you meant omniscient (all-seeing), but that isn't true even without Autonomy's intervention.

9 hours ago, baffly said:

"Rudder"! Thats the word, not "fin". 

It isn't exposed? How would such a contraption work and steer water? From every documentary I have seen on shipbuilding- yes it is. But fine, lets assume it isn't and lets assume god does not know anything about shipbuilding and can't tell of any weak points of how to bend such rudder. (seriously? that is what i meant by saying god is supposed to be super smart with lots of knowledge but acts like a buffoon.)

The rudder isn't exposed to the interior of the ship (that would cause the ship to flood), and accessing it from the outside requires going behind, which means that you get swept away from the ship by the propeller current and have nothing to Push against. There is no viable way to push the rudder that doesn't just knock it off, which violates the whole purpose. Furthermore, if you did manage to steer the ship off course, the bomb would still go off, and it's powerful enough to level Elendel from the middle of the ocean.

9 hours ago, baffly said:

Ah, but wasn't it? 

Yes, the deadmans switch was wired for the control panel, but how does THE CONTROL PANEL knows what is going on?

Yes, it does. In order to tell if a ship has drifted off course, the rudder would have a gyroscope or another method of detecting rotation. These have existed long before electricity and their absence from a giant warship would raise plenty of eyebrows.

9 hours ago, baffly said:

I suspect that even TODAY the controll panel can detect only the shaft to which the rudder is connected to. No one has thought of measuring if the metal plank is straight or not. With the 20's technology Sanderson describes in the book  Im not sure it is even possible.

Already explained, moving on:

9 hours ago, baffly said:

However... actually... you just gave me a new idea- why not create a bubble around the mechanism that TRIGGERS the bomb itself? But fine, i see how it could be dangerous, so lets leave it for the time being. Next.

A speed bubble of any sort disrupts the signals, so the bombs go off.

9 hours ago, baffly said:

Uhhh... Sorry, English is not my native so I could be missing something here, but "Mind sharing"? What do you mean by that?

Contraction of "do you mind sharing?" - sorry about the ambiguity.

9 hours ago, baffly said:

Anyway as for the rest of the message-
BUT THATS MY POINT!!!!! The barrel themselves! Engulf them in a slow time bubble! like really really really slow time bubble. A Duralamin bubble! Let them explode! Youll have an explosion in a bottle. ( You know like those scientist that trapped light in a super frozen state some years back). Carry that bottle with you and do what you want with it (throw it into space, threaten the maelwish to release it, whatever....

This would require multiple fundamental violations of the established rules of Allomancy, but the most obvious:

1. Not enough Cadmium to create a slow bubble large enough (remember, the only way Wayne is able to do what he does is because of his giant Bendalloy reserves)
2. A Duralinium-boosted slow bubble wouldn't last very long relative to outside time
3. Wayne couldn't escape from the slow bubble without it disappearing, so he dies anyway (and then the bubble disappears and everyone dies)
4. You can't move time bubbles, so even if all of the above problems didn't exist, there are still three nuclear bombs that will explode within range of several major cities at some point in the future.

9 hours ago, baffly said:

Ahhh!, But that is what some of my strategies are about.

20mins until detonation.

1. Duralamin super push yourself to Elendel.

2. Bendalloy to move super fast. Ask god where are his servants\allies\anyone that can help.

19 mins.

3. Locate them and ask for reserves of metals including cadmuim and steel and anything the city can muster.

17 mins.

Super push yourself and your resources (metals, grenades, kamikadze pulsers, anyone else willing to help (would be nice to have Wax around as well))

16 mins.

Put your plan into action. ( I have MANY plans, those that I mentioned are just the tip, and that is why I was so upset on how such a smart super being is being so stupid).

In short, these timeframes are totally unrealistic, Bendalloy doesn't let you move super fast, since bubbles can't be moved, unless you continuously bubble, which would use up all of your bendalloy really quickly, by the time Wayne located enough cadmium the bomb would already be detonated, Wayne isn't nearly accurate enough with D-pushes to land anywhere near his target (Wax had a lifetime of practice, but he isn't exactly available right now and even if he was, he's out of Duralinium), slow bubbles don't actually matter (as discussed previously), Wayne would be unable to carry a large number of people, even ignoring all of this you still want a bunch of Pulsers to commit suicide, which is hardly better, and none of the plans that you've suggested have survived any other person so much as reading them casually, which is maybe why Harmony didn't suggest them.

9 hours ago, baffly said:

Now, and this might be a point i missed- You tell me that for Marasi  to speed up time she needs to burn cadmium all the time? Hmm... So.... How did Duralamin helped Wayne in his retarded suicide? Like for him the time acted normal, while for everyone else it was one moment, right? So why would the inverse not work? Yes, for Wayne and the bomb it would be one moment but for everyone else it would be an eon.

A few things:

1. Time bubbles require constant upkeep - normally a slow bubble works the way you suggest, but with Duralinium, all of your reserves are used up instantly. Note that Wayne's bubble had almost disappeared by the time he was finished.
2. You can't move slow bubbles, so they are functionally useless in this situation
3. I understand that English isn't a first language for you, but the word "retarded" is considered incredibly offensive. Please don't use it in the future.

9 hours ago, baffly said:

Well, actually that wasn't me saying that, I was just conceding and willing to work withing this framework. My initial thought was- "He is GOD ! Simply magick it away, for Sazed  sake"... Then the ideas started to flow in and I just gave myself to the river :)...

Yes, this is a logical fallacy known as Slippery Slope. That's what I just said. Moving on:

9 hours ago, baffly said:

Several days? I kinda assumed the had several minutes after seeing how Wax has broken their defences. 

It says in the book that they had planned the ship as a backup long before Wax arrived, but the bomb was only transferred over when he arrived. This was their plan B.

9 hours ago, baffly said:

2. hmmm... Like... if they did have several days then theoretically they could rig not only the stirring but also add sensors to their systems... but... would they?  

I mean to think that the enemy will discover them and decide to bend the rudder in order to make the ship steer off... And then actually do something about that? IDK,from my limited experience normal people just don't do those type of things. I do, but I'm not normal, and it takes much much much MUCH more than a few days to prepare for all eventualities. Try few years. They were hurrying, they had a very tight deadline... People, just don't work like that.

It is far more likely that the simply attached the bomb to the stirring mechanism but left all other systems alone.

But fine, I can to work in that framework as well. 

How about then, when Wayne comes back with the resources, he'll bring several ship mechanics along? That way, he and the other allomancers could pull the ship apart and let the mechanics dismantle any sensor and then stop the ship. All this under heavy cover of a duralamin shifter bubble of course.

This is not how any of this works.

Yes, the Set will take extreme measures to ensure that they win. This is established. They will add sensors because that is what they do. Since a sensor would detect bending the rudder anyway, this is a way of covering all of their bases. Normal people don't put deadman's switches on nukes; the Set are not 'normal.'

They would under no circumstances leave a vulnerability as obvious as steering systems not wired up to the deadman's switch.

We've already established that there's no way Wayne would be able to bring mechanics onto the ship, but even if he did, they can't dismantle the sensors because that triggers the deadman's switch. That's the point of a deadman's switch.

10 hours ago, baffly said:

Not exactly,no.

The version I offered here (I have several versions) is:

1. Wayne leaves the ship with a duralamin steel push and hits Elendel using the same logic as how Wax jumped off the tower and managed to land on the tiny spec (well, relatively speaking) that is the ship. If the ship is too far then wait until it comes closer.

2. Get stocks of metals, pulser grenades and a pulser, yes.

3. Returns to the ship with them

4. The pulser put a slow bubble around the bom- Ahhhhhhhhh... I see it now. The barrels have their electricity cut out and explode.

Alright, that is okay, one of my other plans does something similar. 

How about this- Wayne puts a charge that is connected to a barrel of water. all the charges go at the same time and all the harmonium explode. all this is surrounded by a slow time bubble from multiple grenades?

Wayne jumps off...

As a safeguard i would have put a metal platform underneath the contraption (grenades and barrels) and duralmin push them into space after he harmonium is being exploded. Just in case if something goes wrong. (preferably if Wax is present to assist). 

 

Now that I think about it... Ummmm... Waxes sister is not very smart, is she...

Why would the Set need to experiment Nazi Germany style on their faux rocket when they have MAGICK!!!!!

Yeah, IRL, Scadrial is screwed.

None of this would work for reasons established earlier. The plan with Wayne putting an explosive charge with water on each of the barrels is smart, but Wayne can't get the necessary supplies (see above) and even if he could, rigging up such a device would take too much time (think on the order of hours - explosives are hard, y'all). Can't do it haphazard, because if you do, one of the charges of water detonates before the other two and you are screwed. If they had several hours, this might work - but they don't. And I don't know what you mean by that last bit, but it would be horrifically impractical to D-push the bomb all the way to Elendel, due to issues with aim, wind, and mistings on the other end.

10 hours ago, baffly said:

Wait, for real? Then this is so much OP. Sure, not on a Supersaiyan kind of way but enough for our purpose. a super smart being with an (inter?) planetary communication device (even if it is not at full capacity at the moment) and a vast pool of knowledge for him to draw from? That is almost Asimovesque.

The AI we fantasize about when we use the pathetic worthless parodies we have now.

Hell with his "super powers", in this scenario Sazed is a deus ex machina enough.

The main flaw shared by all of your plans is that they rely on really obvious misunderstandings about the situation, allomancy, or both. None of them are really even close to working.

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Done? Done. Great.