Full Cosmere Restarted RP: Speculative Biology

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

@Argenti@Spark of Hope@IcedOutPenguin@Wyver the Great@SpartanBrigade@Through The Living Glass@.....@CoderDrag0n8@Tinwatcher@ChickenBonanza@Edema Rue@ThatOneWorldhopper@Dilly honor spren@Ashkaloda@Dragonheir

This is not the start of the RP, it's just a thread to speculate on the biology of mysterious species in the Cosmere. The first thing that needs addessing is Sho Del, so that's what this'll be about for now. Contribution here is optional.

 

The Coppermind page doesn't have much. They have 6 arms, chalk-white skin and hair, and are good at navigating through Shadesmar. So far, they remind me a bit of the UrDail from cytoverse.

[Through the Living Heir he/him]

Speculative biology? *Instantaneous appearance* Let's see... 

I've heard speculations that since the fain are mostly poisonous to normal beings, they have mirrored chirality.

They've got four arms, which suggests other fainlife also have 6 appendages. 

I'd imagine the arms are specialized into different roles, like the mandibles-pincers-legs(-antenna-swimmerets, but we don't need those two) differentiation is say, lobsters. I haven't looked into the mechanics of it, but depending upon whether shoulders for strength or mouth-and-eye proximity for fine motor are more important, they'll be in a different order. 

Fain are white, which implies extreme cancer resistance or some non-visible radiation absorption - perhaps they block UV and only UV. 

I haven't read that part of Dragonsteel Prime (but spoilers are fine with me), so I don't know if they have any other special capabilities. 

[ChickenBonanza]

From Dragonsteel Prime, (so, dubious) there are a few things:

Spoiler

As far as I can remember, they have a significant amount of ability relating to the Cognitive Realm and the Cognitive Aspect.

They can do things like create mental illusions, so convincingly real they can do physical damage and kill people.

Tamu Keks, which I’m pretty sure are a special kind of bone inside a Sho Del (the heartbone, whatever that is), can be used for long distance communication with others (or Dragons? They, being sentient Fain beings, likely possess many similar abilities to the Sho Del), and other things like lighting candles with certain motions.

This power, I think, is due to the presence of Dragonsteel atoms within the bones of Sho Del, which sends pulses out into the Spiritual Realm at regular intervals. Pretty wild.

Sho Del also need Dragonsteel to live, I think? I’d have to check.

There are also the general things, like them being a form of Fain-life, which can’t survive in a Trune (‘normal’) environment by virtue of them being unable to consume ‘normal’ organic substances for energy, or something.

6 minutes ago, Dragonheir said:

I've heard speculations that since the fain are mostly poisonous to normal beings, they have mirrored chirality.

I’d seen that, too, and thought it was a pretty neat concept.

Edited June 8, 2025 by ChickenBonanza

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

17 minutes ago, Dragonheir said:

Speculative biology? *Instantaneous appearance* Let's see... 

I've heard speculations that since the fain are mostly poisonous to normal beings, they have mirrored chirality.

They've got four arms, which suggests other fainlife also have 6 appendages. 

I'd imagine the arms are specialized into different roles, like the mandibles-pincers-legs(-antenna-swimmerets, but we don't need those two) differentiation is say, lobsters. I haven't looked into the mechanics of it, but depending upon whether shoulders for strength or mouth-and-eye proximity for fine motor are more important, they'll be in a different order. 

Fain are white, which implies extreme cancer resistance or some non-visible radiation absorption - perhaps they block UV and only UV. 

I haven't read that part of Dragonsteel Prime (but spoilers are fine with me), so I don't know if they have any other special capabilities. 

Mirrored chirality would be interesting to have, as it would mean that they wouldn't be consume 'normal' organisms and that normal ones can't consume fain life. Yeah, there'd be almost no evolutionary benefit from two pairs of unspecialised arms. I'm thinking that one pair is serves a purpose in combat. 

However, the Coppermind says that they filled a similar niche to humans, so maybe not weaponry, as humans weren't remotely dangerous until Homo erectus mastered fire about a million years ago. So maybe it's for sensory organs, like antennae?

Does DSP confirm whether they can see outside the human visible spectrum? I haven't read it, so I haven't actually seen many Sho Del. Are they roughly human-sized? 

16 minutes ago, ChickenBonanza said:

From Dragonsteel Prime, (so, dubious) there are a few things:

  Hide contents

As far as I can remember, they have a significant amount of ability relating to the Cognitive Realm and the Cognitive Aspect.

They can do things like create mental illusions, so convincingly real they can do physical damage and kill people.

Tamu Keks, which I’m pretty sure are a special kind of bone inside a Sho Del (the heartbone, whatever that is), can be used for long distance communication with others (or Dragons? They, being sentient Fain beings, likely possess many similar abilities to the Sho Del), and other things like lighting candles with certain motions.

This power, I think, is due to the presence of Dragonsteel atoms within the bones of Sho Del, which sends pulses out into the Spiritual Realm at regular intervals. Pretty wild.

Sho Del also need Dragonsteel to live, I think? I’d have to check.

There are also the general things, like them being a form of Fain-life, which can’t survive in a Trune (‘normal’) environment by virtue of them being unable to consume ‘normal’ organic substances for energy, or something.

I’d seen that, too, and thought it was a pretty neat concept.

All I've heard about Tamu Keks is that they're used for communication with dragons.

Do you mean that they need dragonsteel as often as Returned need Breath?

[Argenti he/him]

21 minutes ago, ChickenBonanza said:

From Dragonsteel Prime, (so, dubious) there are a few things:

  Hide contents

As far as I can remember, they have a significant amount of ability relating to the Cognitive Realm and the Cognitive Aspect.

They can do things like create mental illusions, so convincingly real they can do physical damage and kill people.

Tamu Keks, which I’m pretty sure are a special kind of bone inside a Sho Del (the heartbone, whatever that is), can be used for long distance communication with others (or Dragons? They, being sentient Fain beings, likely possess many similar abilities to the Sho Del), and other things like lighting candles with certain motions.

This power, I think, is due to the presence of Dragonsteel atoms within the bones of Sho Del, which sends pulses out into the Spiritual Realm at regular intervals. Pretty wild.

Sho Del also need Dragonsteel to live, I think? I’d have to check.

There are also the general things, like them being a form of Fain-life, which can’t survive in a Trune (‘normal’) environment by virtue of them being unable to consume ‘normal’ organic substances for energy, or something.

I’d seen that, too, and thought it was a pretty neat concept.

DSP spoiler 

Spoiler

They do not need it to live, but they do need it to reach maturity.

I'd be really supised if the fire thing stuck.

Sho Del can survive in non Trune ecosystems, somehow. It's not toxic to them like trune is to humans.

1 minute ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Mirrored chirality would be interesting to have, as it would mean that they wouldn't be consume 'normal' organisms and that normal ones can't consume fain life. Yeah, there'd be almost no evolutionary benefit from two pairs of unspecialised arms. I'm thinking that one pair is serves a purpose in combat.

I mean, all truine life has 6 arms, like how all invertebrates on earth have 4. Do the extra limbs on insects do much extra?

3 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Does DSP confirm whether they can see outside the human visible spectrum? I haven't read it, so I haven't actually seen many Sho Del. Are they roughly human-sized? 

They're human sized

3 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Mirrored chirality would be interesting to have, as it would mean that they wouldn't be consume 'normal' organisms and that normal ones can't consume fain life

Spoiler

They're implied to be spiritually radioactive 

DSP

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

2 minutes ago, Argenti said:

DSP spoiler 

  Reveal hidden contents

They do not need it to live, but they do need it to reach maturity.

I'd be really supised if the fire thing stuck.

Sho Del can survive in non Trune ecosystems, somehow. It's not toxic to them like trune is to humans.

I mean, all truine life has 6 arms, like how all invertebrates on earth have 4. Do the extra limbs on insects do much extra?

They're human sized

Wait, so is Trune synonymous with fain? 

This could be that fain life can metabolise both chiralities somehow, and then convert it to their backwards-chirality, which non-fain life can't handle.

I don't know how far to take the line on the Coppermind page that says that Sho Del filled a similar niche to humans. I used this to make the assumption above that Sho Del did not have superior biological weaponry. This would mean that, with a similar size, Sho Del would mature at a similar time. Then again, singers mature at 10. Humans would typically reach maturity by 15 if not for our slowly developing brains. 

But, I just realised that singers mature in 10 Rosharan years, which is 13-14 Earth years. So, how fast should Sho Del grow?

[Argenti he/him]

2 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Wait, so is Trune synonymous with fain? 

This could be that fain life can metabolise both chiralities somehow, and then convert it to their backwards-chirality, which non-fain life can't handle.

I don't know how far to take the line on the Coppermind page that says that Sho Del filled a similar niche to humans. I used this to make the assumption above that Sho Del did not have superior biological weaponry. This would mean that, with a similar size, Sho Del would mature at a similar time. Then again, singers mature at 10. Humans would typically reach maturity by 15 if not for our slowly developing brains. 

But, I just realised that singers mature in 10 Rosharan years, which is 13-14 Earth years. So, how fast should Sho Del grow?

Yes. I'm pretty sure it's just an older, esoteric term.

 

DSP

Spoiler

So, in dragon steel prime, from what I gathered, they mature at a rate similar to humans-until a point, when they need Dragonsteel. In the modern cosmere, I bet any influx of keyed investiture would do. Like the chasm fiends, they need investiture to reach maturity.

 

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

7 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Yes. I'm pretty sure it's just an older, esoteric term.

 

DSP

  Hide contents

So, in dragon steel prime, from what I gathered, they mature at a rate similar to humans-until a point, when they need Dragonsteel. In the modern cosmere, I bet any influx of keyed investiture would do. Like the chasm fiends, they need investiture to reach maturity.

 

Alright. So, how does one get dragonsteel?

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Alright. So, how does one get dragonsteel?

The dragonsteel prime verson is almost certainly not how it works anymore.

DSP

Spoiler

You got the shattered planes and there's wells there that have a bead of dragonsteel. Which doesn't make sense because these wells are no where near their Homeland so why the storms did they develop an evolutionary reliance on a reasource not found in there natural enviomental to reach sexual maturity.

 

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

3 minutes ago, Argenti said:

The dragonsteel prime verson is almost certainly not how it works anymore.

DSP

  Hide contents

You got the shattered planes and there's wells there that have a bead of dragonsteel. Which doesn't make sense because these wells are no where near their Homeland so why the storms did they develop an evolutionary reliance on a reasource not found in there natural enviomental to reach sexual maturity.

 

Hmm...

So, what other forms of Investiture were available on Yolen, according to DSP?

[Argenti he/him]

5 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Hmm...

So, what other forms of Investiture were available on Yolen, according to DSP?

I honestly don't think the term existed yet, I'll be real. 

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

3 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I honestly don't think the term existed yet, I'll be real. 

I'm out of ideas here. Is there any implication of anything like maybe an Adonalsium's Perpendicularity?

[ChickenBonanza]

37 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Sho Del can survive in non Trune ecosystems, somehow. It's not toxic to them like trune is to humans.

27 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Wait, so is Trune synonymous with fain?

Trune is not synonymous with Fain, it refers to a non-Fain environment. (The standard, real-world Earth environment would be considered ‘Trune.’)

30 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Sho Del can survive in non Trune ecosystems, somehow. It's not toxic to them like trune is to humans.

Humans can survive in Fain environments, too, they just can’t eat anything organic that is Fain. (Fain life is perfectly safe to touch, from the Liar of Partinel snippets.) I’d assume a similar thing would occur with Sho Del and Trune organics, but maybe not.

[Argenti he/him]

1 minute ago, ChickenBonanza said:

Trune is not synonymous with Fain, it refers to a non-Fain environment. (The standard, real-world Earth environment would be considered ‘Trune.’)

You're totally right. I'm dumb.

4 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

I'm out of ideas here. Is there any implication of anything like maybe an Adonalsium's Perpendicularity?

Not really. We have no idea how the magic is powered.

Spoiler

Yes wave sticks around and be vaguely tired!! Illusionnnnn and also microkineses!

 

[ChickenBonanza]

4 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Not really. We have no idea how the magic is powered.

I mean, such a thing is not completely unprecedented in canonical Cosmere, Feruchemists do something similar, I’d posit. Through converting the state of their bodies and souls into Investiture. It is still weird, though.

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, ChickenBonanza said:

I mean, such a thing is not completely unprecedented in canonical Cosmere, Feruchemists do something similar, I’d posit. Through converting the state of their bodies and souls into Investiture. It is still weird, though.

Feruchemy feels very different, and isn't as "high horsepower". It would be like surgebinding with only your soul. Doesn't feel right.

Although. Investiture and invested arts worked profoundly differently pre shattering, and the lack of like ambient fuel is the reason hoid's lightweaving was wonky? So maybe they just used that and comprrssed it somehow?

[ChickenBonanza]

10 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Feruchemy feels very different, and isn't as "high horsepower". It would be like surgebinding with only your soul. Doesn't feel right.

That is how it feels, indeed.

10 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Although. Investiture and invested arts worked profoundly differently pre shattering, and the lack of like ambient fuel is the reason hoid's lightweaving was wonky? So maybe they just used that and comprrssed it somehow?

I do like this concept a lot. My thoughts immediately went to Aethers, and how Roseite would need ambient Investiture to support itself separated from the source user.

(“…..” mentioned something similar in the og thread, too. With Microkinesis ‘breaking’ like Lightweaving did.)

(Like, maybe things like Microkinesis didn’t need a lot of power from the user because energy was naturally drawn from Adolnasium’s Investiture, like with Sel’s magic from the Dor, or Allomancy/Hemalurgy from Preservation and Ruin. With Adolansium separated, Microkinesis/Lightweaving couldn’t draw power from the Spiritual Realm, because the source it ‘knows’ to draw from no longer exists, and is instead attuned to many different Shards.)

Edited June 8, 2025 by ChickenBonanza
(parenthesis)

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, ChickenBonanza said:

That is how it feels, indeed.

I do like this concept a lot. My thoughts immediately went to Aethers, and how Roseite would need ambient Investiture to support itself separated from the source user.

That's very good point in it's favor. Those investiture fields just no longer exist outside of aether controlled systems, who claim to pre-exist him, and I'd presume have some level of autonomy to back that claim up. It would make sense they can bend the local rules.

This is actually a very niftytheory crafting. Mhhh I'm thinking about cosmere physics now.

[Through the Living Heir he/him]

11 hours ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Mirrored chirality would be interesting to have, as it would mean that they wouldn't be consume 'normal' organisms and that normal ones can't consume fain life. Yeah, there'd be almost no evolutionary benefit from two pairs of unspecialised arms. I'm thinking that one pair is serves a purpose in combat. 

However, the Coppermind says that they filled a similar niche to humans, so maybe not weaponry, as humans weren't remotely dangerous until Homo erectus mastered fire about a million years ago. So maybe it's for sensory organs, like antennae?

Does DSP confirm whether they can see outside the human visible spectrum? I haven't read it, so I haven't actually seen many Sho Del. Are they roughly human-sized? 

Yeah, I’m pretty sure it’s canon that at least normal things can’t consume anything fain. 
Actually, it wasn’t fire that made us dangerous (though it certainly helped), it was the ability to sweat, which means a group of humans can run prey to exhaustion in hot weather. The addition of tools enables finishing off animals who’ve collapsed without risking injury (via short throwing spears) and the more effective butchering of animals, and fire allowed more nutrients to be extracted. 
I was thinking building/carrying and eating/tool use. I’d also expect one pair of arms to be used to reach for things, while the other would be a little shorter. Antennae don’t work very well for a biped (they need to reach the things to be I  be investigated), though having the more delicate arm set have a much more precise sense of touch while the stronger arms have a higher pain tolerance could make sense. 
I don’t think they’d specifically see outside the visible spectrum (though they might); I was more theorizing that since they’re “bone-white”, they lack melanin and hence need a different method for cancer prevention. I was originally thinking they’d produce a pigment that only absorbs high-energy light, but upon further consideration they might reflect UV light because of their white color. 

13 hours ago, Argenti said:

I mean, all truine life has 6 arms, like how all invertebrates on earth have 4. Do the extra limbs on insects do much extra?

*note - that’s vertebrates (and even then, not all of them). 

Insects (and other arthropods) use their appendages for a whole bunch of things. Mandibles (for external chewing and biting), other mouthparts (for moving the food around), pincers and claws (for fighting and crushing shells), legs (for walking, with tons of redundancy), swimmerets (which are on lobster tails and used to swim), spinnerets (used by spiders to spin webs), and antennae (for sensing things through touch) are all evolutionarily the same thing. Wings and tails are the only extremities that don’t come from legs (wings are thought to be repurposed gills, which is cool). 

Spoiler

Spiritually radioactive?! Not sure what that would entail, but it sounds dangerous and/or useful. 

[Argenti he/him]

10 minutes ago, Dragonheir said:

I don’t think they’d specifically see outside the visible spectrum (though they might); I was more theorizing that since they’re “bone-white”, they lack melanin and hence need a different method for cancer prevention. I was originally thinking they’d produce a pigment that only absorbs high-energy light, but upon further consideration they might reflect UV light because of their white color. 

14 hours ago, Argenti said:

It's also been said that a Fain creature would be very scared when seeing color for the first time. Bone white trees imply that they either don't have lignin and chlorophyll, or at least for the former, have some sort of extra thing on top. Perhaps their bleachedness is related to awakening's bleaching? During Fain's investiture field life-cycle, they bleach themselves?

 

 

17 minutes ago, Dragonheir said:

*note - that’s vertebrates (and even then, not all of them). 

 

You're right,  it was a long day, okay. But anyway. No invertebrates have *more* than 4 limbs, right?
 

 

19 minutes ago, Dragonheir said:

*note - that’s vertebrates (and even then, not all of them). 

 

I really don't think it's needed to justify much beyond that they evolved (or were made) from a six-finned fish. Perhaps the weird lizard-fain-primate thing they "evolved" from (I'm not convinced the aethers didn't just make them) used the extra hands to climb better, and then used proper feet to run.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Dragonheir said:

 

  Hide contents

Spiritually radioactive?! Not sure what that would entail, but it sounds dangerous and/or useful. 

Spoiler

They're like singer gem hearts, forming from a leakage of investiture from the spiritual. in DSP we saw "waves of energy coming from the tamu kek", in the cognitive and physical. I doubt that's good for people.

Dragonsteel Prime

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

14 hours ago, Dragonheir said:

Yeah, I’m pretty sure it’s canon that at least normal things can’t consume anything fain. 
Actually, it wasn’t fire that made us dangerous (though it certainly helped), it was the ability to sweat, which means a group of humans can run prey to exhaustion in hot weather. The addition of tools enables finishing off animals who’ve collapsed without risking injury (via short throwing spears) and the more effective butchering of animals, and fire allowed more nutrients to be extracted. 
I was thinking building/carrying and eating/tool use. I’d also expect one pair of arms to be used to reach for things, while the other would be a little shorter. Antennae don’t work very well for a biped (they need to reach the things to be I  be investigated), though having the more delicate arm set have a much more precise sense of touch while the stronger arms have a higher pain tolerance could make sense. 
I don’t think they’d specifically see outside the visible spectrum (though they might); I was more theorizing that since they’re “bone-white”, they lack melanin and hence need a different method for cancer prevention. I was originally thinking they’d produce a pigment that only absorbs high-energy light, but upon further consideration they might reflect UV light because of their white color. 

From what I know, humans were still in the middle of the food chain without fire. Most species of Homo were predators, but none ruled their ecosystems.

I'll think some more on this tomorrow. I just got Mistborn the Deckbuilding Game and I got to play it.

[Argenti he/him]

@SpiritOfWrath since you're playing a sho del you should should on this as well.

[Through the Living Wrath he/him]

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

@SpiritOfWrath since you're playing a sho del you should should on this as well.

Ok

so I’m not really a bio kid

BUT I HAVE READ DRAGONSTEEL PRIME!

ok

um

I think the best consideration I could have here is nudging yall more to considering magic.

Dragonsteel Prime:

Spoiler

Their magic doesn’t seem to be actual Microkinesis - or at least not like the human type. Every single Sho Del mage fought at the Shattered Plains only ever did illusions - implying a specification that wasn’t present for humans - Topaz couldn’t even illusion, and he had the Dawnshard

The point of this is saying that the extra arms may simply help with magic.

But… ya know. Not much of a bio kid.

On 6/8/2025 at 2:51 PM, Argenti said:

 

  Hide contents

They're like singer gem hearts, forming from a leakage of investiture from the spiritual. in DSP we saw "waves of energy coming from the tamu kek", in the cognitive and physical. I doubt that's good for people.

Dragonsteel Prime

So

Like

I mean

It has the potential to snuff a candle by literally JUST BEING WAVED AROUND.

Soooo

like

Definitely not gooooood.

[Argenti he/him]

19 minutes ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

Ok

so I’m not really a bio kid

BUT I HAVE READ DRAGONSTEEL PRIME!

ok

um

I think the best consideration I could have here is nudging yall more to considering magic.

Dragonsteel Prime:

  Reveal hidden contents

Their magic doesn’t seem to be actual Microkinesis - or at least not like the human type. Every single Sho Del mage fought at the Shattered Plains only ever did illusions - implying a specification that wasn’t present for humans - Topaz couldn’t even illusion, and he had the Dawnshard

The point of this is saying that the extra arms may simply help with magic.

But… ya know. Not much of a bio kid.

So

Like

I mean

It has the potential to snuff a candle by literally JUST BEING WAVED AROUND.

Soooo

like

Definitely not gooooood.

Read tuah

[Tinwatcher I don’t mind]

3 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Read tuah