Dragon Radiants

[Sequence The Cryptic He/Him]

Does anybody know whether Brandon ever addressed whether Dragons can bond spren and become Knights Radiant? 

Or Sho Del, since they're Fain life like dragons and it would probably work similarly.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Sequence The Cryptic said:

Does anybody know whether Brandon ever addressed whether Dragons can bond spren and become Knights Radiant? 

Or Sho Del, since they're Fain life like dragons and it would probably work similarly.

If we're talking about the shape-shifting sapient pseudo-deity kind of dragons, It may be difficult for them to do so.

Non-humans like Kandra can bond True Spren, but highly Invested beings such as Returned would pose more difficulty. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120-warsaw-signing/#e1832

Questioner

If someone out of Roshar knows the Immortal Words, and he's, for example, a kandra, can he become a Knight?

Brandon Sanderson

So, becoming a Knight Radiant is up to the spren, right? Saying the Ideals, swearing the oaths, these sorts of things, you have to convince a piece of sapient Investiture that you deserve it, and that's the main thing.

Questioner

And the kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the kandra would have to lots of fast talking, and there are a few more difficulties involved, but this is theoretically possible. For instance, taking some pieces of Investiture offworld are difficult.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e69

Argent

Can a Returned like Lightsong go to Roshar and form a bond with a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture interferes with other Investiture.

Argent

And they have a lot of it.

Brandon Sanderson

And they have a lot of it. That is not-- It's not completely-- For instance you can Push on Invested metal, but it's hard. There's a resistance, the more Invested the harder-- So a bond for instance-- forming a bond-- It's, yeah-- It can be done--

I mean Sazed took two of the powers up, right? But I kind of imagine what he did as a nuclear reaction. Where breaking an atom is hard, unless you are in the middle of a sun. And he was in the middle of the sun. At that point--

Argent

There was a lot of stuff going on around him that facilitated.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, definitely. But when you've got that much power you'll-- In other words if there is a lot of power going around, these things become easier.

Argent

So, possible but difficult is--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

A dragon is so Invested innately that most magic systems cannot be used by them.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/538-fanx-2024/

Questioner

Are the dragons in the Cosmere compatible with the current Investiture systems you've introduced? Or would they even care to use them?

Brandon Sanderson

So, when you talk about dragons in the Cosmere there's generally two branches. The dragons from Yolen are kind of... you can imagine their inspirations as being a little bit along the lines of Tolkien elves—they predate humans, they are very long-lived, and they act like deities to people. People actually pray to them and they can respond through the bond by sending something very equivalent to a Soothing or a Rioting to those who follow them, to bolster them, give them courage, or to take away their fear, or things like that.  They are one style of dragon, you will find dragons that are on other planets that have been created in their image, so to speak, that don't have some of those deific powers.

And so it really depends, is the answer. The Yolen dragons are not really interested in other Investiture, they're highly Invested themselves and most of the magic systems, they wouldn't be able to use, in the same way that trying to Push or Pull on a Shardblade wouldn't do anything because of the high levels of Investiture. They just are already so full that they would not be able to use most of them. What you might call the "lesser dragons", they could theoretically.

So probably not, but less because they're dragons and more because of their high level of natural Investiture.

There probably would be workarounds, but they might be too difficult to be worthwhile. 

[Oraiyu]

On 6/7/2025 at 10:14 AM, Trusk'our said:

Investiture interferes with other Investiture.

 

On 6/7/2025 at 10:14 AM, Trusk'our said:

For instance you can Push on Invested metal, but it's hard. There's a resistance, the more Invested the harder

 

On 6/7/2025 at 10:14 AM, Trusk'our said:

They just are already so full that they would not be able to use most of them.

So would you say Hoid had to be very clever in how he collected Invested arts? I mean, he became an Elantrian - one of the most invested entities in the Cosmere outside of Shards - after he'd already become a Radiant and a First-generation Mistborn, among others... 

[Trusk'our he/him]

9 hours ago, Oraiyu said:

So would you say Hoid had to be very clever in how he collected Invested arts? I mean, he became an Elantrian - one of the most invested entities in the Cosmere outside of Shards - after he'd already become a Radiant and a First-generation Mistborn, among others... 

Don't forget him being a Dawnsliver/periodic Dawnshard. 

Hoid is a weird case, but it is worth noting that there are ways to bypass the standard limitations on how much Investiture you can get. Ascension is one way, but perhaps a Dawnshard expanding your Spiritweb is another.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e69

Argent

Can a Returned like Lightsong go to Roshar and form a bond with a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture interferes with other Investiture.

Argent

And they have a lot of it.

Brandon Sanderson

And they have a lot of it. That is not-- It's not completely-- For instance you can Push on Invested metal, but it's hard. There's a resistance, the more Invested the harder-- So a bond for instance-- forming a bond-- It's, yeah-- It can be done--

I mean Sazed took two of the powers up, right? But I kind of imagine what he did as a nuclear reaction. Where breaking an atom is hard, unless you are in the middle of a sun. And he was in the middle of the sun. At that point--

Argent

There was a lot of stuff going on around him that facilitated.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, definitely. But when you've got that much power you'll-- In other words if there is a lot of power going around, these things become easier.

Argent

So, possible but difficult is--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

[Oraiyu]

42 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Ascension is one way, but perhaps a Dawnshard expanding your Spiritweb is another.

42 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

In other words if there is a lot of power going around, these things become easier.

Good point...

Which makes me wonder if part of the reason he possessed the Dawnshard for as long as he did - and apparently only dropped it out of extreme necessity - was about being powered up enough to take in multiple types of Investiture.

I will say that I'm not sure how expanding your spiritweb would help if the types of Investiture you hold interfere with one another. It may help in the sense that those different ancillary forms of Investiture would make up different parts of the spiritweb that are "distanced" from each other (for lack of better terms) so as not to cause problems. However, they would also permeate your Cognitive and Physical aspects, so the issues would likely present there. 

What do you posit would be the way it would help?

[Treamayne]

On 6/7/2025 at 7:08 AM, Sequence The Cryptic said:

Does anybody know whether Brandon ever addressed whether Dragons can bond spren and become Knights Radiant? 

Or Sho Del, since they're Fain life like dragons and it would probably work similarly.

There's a WoB for that:

Spoiler

Questioner

Are the dragons in the Cosmere compatible with the current Investiture systems you've introduced? Or would they even care to use them?

Brandon Sanderson

So, when you talk about dragons in the Cosmere there's generally two branches. The dragons from Yolen are kind of... you can imagine their inspirations as being a little bit along the lines of Tolkien elves—they predate humans, they are very long-lived, and they act like deities to people. People actually pray to them and they can respond through the bond by sending something very equivalent to a Soothing or a Rioting to those who follow them, to bolster them, give them courage, or to take away their fear, or things like that.  They are one style of dragon, you will find dragons that are on other planets that have been created in their image, so to speak, that don't have some of those deific powers.

And so it really depends, is the answer. The Yolen dragons are not really interested in other Investiture, they're highly Invested themselves and most of the magic systems, they wouldn't be able to use, in the same way that trying to Push or Pull on a Shardblade wouldn't do anything because of the high levels of Investiture. They just are already so full that they would not be able to use most of them. What you might call the "lesser dragons", they could theoretically.

FanX 2024 (Sept. 28, 2024)

Really, it's probably possible for a Yolish Dragon to bond a Spren, if there were a Spren willing to do so - but it is unlikely that a Yolish Dragon would want to bond a Spren. They already have access to Microkinesis (on which multiple surges - Division, Cohesion, Tension, at least - are based in-part) and they don't really gain anything else from the Nahel bond (they already heal and have other Investiture).

That said, we know from Tress that Foil has accumulated BioChromatic Breath - so some Manifestations of Investiture (MoI) would be acquired by some Dragons, based on what they need and what they like to study (at least). 

Edited June 11, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG