Spren strength comparison

[Epicdaf]

I've been giving a lot of thought to the creation of the Blackthorn spren and the consequences of investing a spren with such renown with the real counterparts memories and abilities. 
The only other entity in the cosmere that shares a similar if not greater reputation is Marsh (Ironyes), as knowledge or rumours of him have reached other worlds.
It would be very interesting if somehow, due to his invested (almost sliver-like) status, he created a spren version of himself. Maybe the version that we've been hearing about in the cosmere is the spren itself? Would he/it be the cosmere's champion against the blackthorn?

What are your thoughts?
 

[#1 Taln Fan he/him]

@Epicdaf Please keep all WaT spoilers strictly to the WaT spoiler board, and also keep spoilers out of post titles.  I've moved this topic for you and changed the title.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

7 hours ago, Epicdaf said:

I've been giving a lot of thought to the creation of the Blackthorn spren and the consequences of investing a spren with such renown with the real counterparts memories and abilities. 
The only other entity in the cosmere that shares a similar if not greater reputation is Marsh (Ironyes), as knowledge or rumours of him have reached other worlds.
It would be very interesting if somehow, due to his invested (almost sliver-like) status, he created a spren version of himself. Maybe the version that we've been hearing about in the cosmere is the spren itself? Would he/it be the cosmere's champion against the blackthorn?

What are your thoughts?
 

That's a very neat connection to make! For an Ironeyes spren to be created, I think that he would have had to appear as a separate entity to Marsh within the Cognitive or Spiritual Realm. We don't know of any instances that this happens, but we know next to nothing about what Marsh did between the Catacendre and mb era 2, so it is possible. I don't know if it would have to occur on Roshar, since that is the only place where Invested entities are influenced by thought, or if it could happen elsewhere. As for being a contesting champion to the Blackthorn, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't pick Marsh himself, if not someone more powerful or better suited. I also don't think that Brandon would do that, as a contest like that is bound to be a major climax, and the character for the "good" side participating should be someone who we feel attached to and can emotionally grow, not a replica/spren. I'm sure there are also many other people across the Cosmere who are "legends" in this way as well. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

56 minutes ago, epl2 said:

I don't know if it would have to occur on Roshar, since that is the only place where Invested entities are influenced by thought, or if it could happen elsewhere. 

Thoughts manipulating Investiture is a Cosmere-wide phenomenon. Roshar simply has more free floating Investiture in the to be affected.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2-jordancon-2016/#e141

Questioner

Spren. The phenomenon that creates spren. Is that Roshar-specific or is that a general effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, yes and no. So the question is, the effect that creates spren, is that Roshar-specific or is it general. The general fundamental rules that create spren are cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. Develops personalities and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen on any pla-- in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you've seen this happen most commonly are on Sel and Scadri-- err Roshar. You haven't seen it on Scadrial, and you've seen little kind of hints at it on Nalthis, but not quite. And so-- But it's possible for it to happen anywhere. Seons and spren are basically the same thing with different powers-- powers kind of pushing them in different-- growth out of them-- That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium.

Any Cognitive Shadow, such as Vasher or Kelsier, could be influenced by others' thoughts in time.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508-dragonsteel-2022/#e16076

Questioner

Spren are reflections of how people in the Physical Realm see things. So if you have a Cognitive Shadow, would their personality change based on what people in the Physical Realm see them as?

Brandon Sanderson

The short answer is, not as much as you're worried about, no more than we tend to change based on what people say to us and how we interact with the people around us.

The long answer is, over a long period of time, it can happen. And it's gonna depend on a number of factors. But we're talking a matter of centuries not years. The same sort of thing you see happening to Vessels of Shards can happen to Cognitive Shadows.

So, the long answer is yes, but it's not an immediate worry. It's not like people start thinking of you and it shifts you because your perception of yourself is enough strong usually that it rebuffs these sorts of things, being self-aware does that. And a lot of the influence to spren and things like that happen during kind of formative not-quite-self-aware times, if that makes sense.

If you were to become a Cognitive Shadow right now, it wouldn't be a major concern, but in a thousand years, you may look back and say "wow, I was shaped by public perception in ways that I wasn't expecting".

 

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

22 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Thoughts manipulating Investiture is a Cosmere-wide phenomenon. Roshar simply has more free floating Investiture in the to be affected.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2-jordancon-2016/#e141

Questioner

Spren. The phenomenon that creates spren. Is that Roshar-specific or is that a general effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, yes and no. So the question is, the effect that creates spren, is that Roshar-specific or is it general. The general fundamental rules that create spren are cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. Develops personalities and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen on any pla-- in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you've seen this happen most commonly are on Sel and Scadri-- err Roshar. You haven't seen it on Scadrial, and you've seen little kind of hints at it on Nalthis, but not quite. And so-- But it's possible for it to happen anywhere. Seons and spren are basically the same thing with different powers-- powers kind of pushing them in different-- growth out of them-- That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium.

Any Cognitive Shadow, such as Vasher or Kelsier, could be influenced by others' thoughts in time.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508-dragonsteel-2022/#e16076

Questioner

Spren are reflections of how people in the Physical Realm see things. So if you have a Cognitive Shadow, would their personality change based on what people in the Physical Realm see them as?

Brandon Sanderson

The short answer is, not as much as you're worried about, no more than we tend to change based on what people say to us and how we interact with the people around us.

The long answer is, over a long period of time, it can happen. And it's gonna depend on a number of factors. But we're talking a matter of centuries not years. The same sort of thing you see happening to Vessels of Shards can happen to Cognitive Shadows.

So, the long answer is yes, but it's not an immediate worry. It's not like people start thinking of you and it shifts you because your perception of yourself is enough strong usually that it rebuffs these sorts of things, being self-aware does that. And a lot of the influence to spren and things like that happen during kind of formative not-quite-self-aware times, if that makes sense.

If you were to become a Cognitive Shadow right now, it wouldn't be a major concern, but in a thousand years, you may look back and say "wow, I was shaped by public perception in ways that I wasn't expecting".

 

Thank you for the clarification. I was uncertain as to whether that was specific to spren or not. That makes the creation of an Ironeyes being more plausible, assuming Marsh appears in a state of pure Investiture at some point. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, epl2 said:

That makes the creation of an Ironeyes being more plausible, assuming Marsh appears in a state of pure Investiture at some point. 

Given that Sazed has Invested him enough on occasion to visit souls passing into the Beyond, I suspect he's a Sliver, much like those that used the Well of Ascension. 

Spoiler

"Ironeyes?" Marasi asked. "Is. . . is Wayne really gone? Like. . . are we absolutely certain?"

Death smiled. "I didn't meet his soul, Marasi. I only do that some of the time, when Saze Invests me with the power. I think he likes the idea of me living up to the stories people decided to tell about me.

TLM, pg. 499

If this were the case and he died, he might be able to persist as a Cognitive Shadow like his brother.

So the stories told about him may someday hold even more relevance, perhaps, as they may have the opportunity to skew what he truly is.

Quote

Thank you for the clarification.

Glad I could be helpful 

Edited May 1, 2025 by Trusk'our