Elhokar's Secret

[Jult]

First post ever. So, I apologize if this has been discussed to death already. But I was thinking about how Elhokar died on the verge of bonding with Design. And I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on why Design was drawn to Elhokar in the first place.

When I first read his death scene, Cryptics definitely weren't the type of Spren that I had imagined him bonding. What Truths would he have spoken to improve his bond?

Would it have been something as simple as him feeling insecure about being a good king? Or maybe murdering Ana and Da and covering it up afterwards was eating at him? I guess that would add a bit of a dramatic irony to the fact that their grandson was the one who killed him.

Or did I miss some clue to some other major Truth he was sitting on? I guess not everyone is repressing as many traumas as Shallan. But I'm curious to hear people's takes on this even if they're speculative.

[Nitpicking]

3 hours ago, Jult said:

First post ever. So, I apologize if this has been discussed to death already. But I was thinking about how Elhokar died on the verge of bonding with Design. And I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on why Design was drawn to Elhokar in the first place.

When I first read his death scene, Cryptics definitely weren't the type of Spren that I had imagined him bonding. What Truths would he have spoken to improve his bond?

Would it have been something as simple as him feeling insecure about being a good king? Or maybe murdering Ana and Da and covering it up afterwards was eating at him? I guess that would add a bit of a dramatic irony to the fact that their grandson was the one who killed him.

Or did I miss some clue to some other major Truth he was sitting on? I guess not everyone is repressing as many traumas as Shallan. But I'm curious to hear people's takes on this even if they're speculative.

We can't know, of course, unless Brandon (or possibly someone from Dragonsteel who has access to his notes) is reading this.

Thoughts:

• "My father was an abusive bully. I'm glad he's dead."
• "My mother never loved me."
• "I'm scared all the time." (That's one that Shallan spoke.)
• "I resent my uncle Dalinar, who has done nothing but help me my whole life."
• "I should have abdicated as king. Jasnah or Dalinar would be so much better."
• "Adolin's cheerfulness, generosity, and perkiness get on my nerves something fierce."

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

3 hours ago, Jult said:

First post ever. So, I apologize if this has been discussed to death already. But I was thinking about how Elhokar died on the verge of bonding with Design. And I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on why Design was drawn to Elhokar in the first place.

When I first read his death scene, Cryptics definitely weren't the type of Spren that I had imagined him bonding. What Truths would he have spoken to improve his bond?

Would it have been something as simple as him feeling insecure about being a good king? Or maybe murdering Ana and Da and covering it up afterwards was eating at him? I guess that would add a bit of a dramatic irony to the fact that their grandson was the one who killed him.

Or did I miss some clue to some other major Truth he was sitting on? I guess not everyone is repressing as many traumas as Shallan. But I'm curious to hear people's takes on this even if they're speculative.

We know from a WoB at least one Truth for Elhokar would have been to admit he was a poor king. As for the others I’d have to think about it. Another might be recognizing when to accept influence from others like Dalinar and when to take a stand and act like a king. I don’t think it would have included Ana and Da since he never murdered them, just granted a boon to a friend and they died on accident. I don’t even think he knew or remembered them.

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read (whichever list is shorter). Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips. 

4 hours ago, Jult said:

First post ever. So, I apologize if this has been discussed to death already. But I was thinking about how Elhokar died on the verge of bonding with Design. And I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on why Design was drawn to Elhokar in the first place.

When I first read his death scene, Cryptics definitely weren't the type of Spren that I had imagined him bonding. What Truths would he have spoken to improve his bond?

Would it have been something as simple as him feeling insecure about being a good king? Or maybe murdering Ana and Da and covering it up afterwards was eating at him? I guess that would add a bit of a dramatic irony to the fact that their grandson was the one who killed him.

Or did I miss some clue to some other major Truth he was sitting on? I guess not everyone is repressing as many traumas as Shallan. But I'm curious to hear people's takes on this even if they're speculative.

Elhokar's WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Rustbringer

Hey, I've been trying to figure out how Elhokar was 'broken', and I'd like to check if I'm on the right track. Obviously he isn't paranoid (since his fears of assassination and the people he sees in the shadows are very real), so i looked a little closer at his behavior and I noticed he never feels bad about how his decisions impact other people, and doesn't react to his sister's death/resurrection but does constantly worry about how people talk about him.

Combined, that really seems like he's somewhere on the spectrum of narcissistic personality disorder, what with "an excessive need for admiration, and disregard for others' feelings,"

Am I in the right ballpark?

Brandon Sanderson

Yup, you are right on target.

Do note that the idea that a person needs to be somehow 'broken' is an in-world theory that isn't 100% validated by the people chosen as Radiants. People have, however, noticed a trend in-world, which is valid.

General Reddit 2019 (July 17, 2019)

Quote

coltonx9

What would Elhokar's fifth truth be?

Brandon Sanderson

...Oh, Elhokar's last truth? He would have had to have been on a long journey before he could even get to that. It would probably be-- I'm going to RAFO that now, because I think it would tell you too much about the way I'm thinking for the way the truths work. I could probably tell you that now, but I will choose not to. Let's just say it would involve kind of a journey that starts kind of-- negative is the wrong term. Being more aware of himself and then coming to a deeper awareness of himself that is perhaps not-- that leaves him in a good place.

coltonx9

Could you tell me what his first truth would have been?

Brandon Sanderson

It would have been to admit the thing that he knows, which is that he's a bad king.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Cryptics were foreshadowed pretty heavily since WoK

Spoiler

• Seeing figures behind him in the mirror (mimics Shallan adding them to her pictures)
  • Because the proto-bond is giving them glimpses of Shadesmar
• Drawing much better than a Vorin Male should be able to accomplish
• Using Lies and scams (cut saddle girth) to manipulate others in "believing"
• etc.

 

[Jult]

16 hours ago, SpartanBrigade said:

I don’t think it would have included Ana and Da since he never murdered them, just granted a boon to a friend and they died on accident.

Wait how was it an accident? I thought he had them arrested on trumped up charges and then repeatedly delayed their trial when he realized that the trial would make him look bad. Not a very bloody murder, but it sure felt intentional. He had to know people their age wouldn't last long in a cell.

Thanks for the WoB reference. I've read every book, but I've done very little reading of what I guess you'd call 'unpublished' sources (not sure if there's a better word for that). I'm just dipping into those now.

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read (whichever list is shorter). Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips. 

Elhokar's WoBs:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Cryptics were foreshadowed pretty heavily since WoK

  Reveal hidden contents

• Seeing figures behind him in the mirror (mimics Shallan adding them to her pictures)
  • Because the proto-bond is giving them glimpses of Shadesmar
• Drawing much better than a Vorin Male should be able to accomplish
• Using Lies and scams (cut saddle girth) to manipulate others in "believing"
• etc.

 

Thanks! I'll do that. And wow. I don't know how I missed so many hints. I've been considering doing a re-read now that I'm a bit more 'Cosmere aware'. WoK was one of the first Sanderson books that I read, so I probably missed tons. 

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

53 minutes ago, Jult said:

Wait how was it an accident? I thought he had them arrested on trumped up charges and then repeatedly delayed their trial when he realized that the trial would make him look bad. Not a very bloody murder, but it sure felt intentional. He had to know people their age wouldn't last long in a cell.

Ahh you're right I just reread. I was misremembering it was totally a murder and not an accident. Yeah I could see one of his Truths relating to the two of them.

[alder24]

On 4/10/2025 at 9:49 PM, Jult said:

First post ever. So, I apologize if this has been discussed to death already. But I was thinking about how Elhokar died on the verge of bonding with Design. And I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on why Design was drawn to Elhokar in the first place.

When I first read his death scene, Cryptics definitely weren't the type of Spren that I had imagined him bonding. What Truths would he have spoken to improve his bond?

Would it have been something as simple as him feeling insecure about being a good king? Or maybe murdering Ana and Da and covering it up afterwards was eating at him? I guess that would add a bit of a dramatic irony to the fact that their grandson was the one who killed him.

Or did I miss some clue to some other major Truth he was sitting on? I guess not everyone is repressing as many traumas as Shallan. But I'm curious to hear people's takes on this even if they're speculative.

Considering that even Tien attracted a Cryptic over simple insecurities and spoke at least one Ideal, Elhokar's Truths would have been similar to that of Tien - a journey of self realization that he's a bad king, that people ignore him and disregard his authority, maybe even realizing that Dalinar loves him and cares for his growth. Things similar to those he spoke about with Kaladin in WoR ch 80. 

The whole mess with Moash's grandparents seems too out in the open already and too well known. Dalinar took care of it, scolded Elhokar etc. I doubt this alone would have been one of his Truths, maybe admitting that he has poor and impulsive judgment, which would have applied to this situation and many others as well.

Spoiler

Questioner

You've said before that Tien was on the track to becoming a Lightweaver, before he, you know. What lie was he telling that was attracting a Cryptic?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very good question. Tien was hiding a lot of belief that he was not a good person. That people didn't want to be around him, and things like this. He was hiding a lot of that, and he knew that people saw him as a burst of sunshine, and he didn't ever want them to not see him that way. That was really hard on him, as it is on a lot of people who are like Tien.

Questioner 2

But did he like rocks?

Brandon Sanderson

He really liked rocks. The fact that he never got to meet Rock is... and throw a bucket of water on him!

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Considering that even Tien attracted a Cryptic over simple insecurities and spoke at least one Ideal, Elhokar's Truths would have been similar to that of Tien - a journey of self realization that he's a bad king, that people ignore him and disregard his authority, maybe even realizing that Dalinar loves him and cares for his growth. Things similar to those he spoke about with Kaladin in WoR ch 80. 

The whole mess with Moash's grandparents seems too out in the open already and too well known. Dalinar took care of it, scolded Elhokar etc. I doubt this alone would have been one of his Truths, maybe admitting that he has poor and impulsive judgment, which would have applied to this situation and many others as well.

  Hide contents

Questioner

You've said before that Tien was on the track to becoming a Lightweaver, before he, you know. What lie was he telling that was attracting a Cryptic?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very good question. Tien was hiding a lot of belief that he was not a good person. That people didn't want to be around him, and things like this. He was hiding a lot of that, and he knew that people saw him as a burst of sunshine, and he didn't ever want them to not see him that way. That was really hard on him, as it is on a lot of people who are like Tien.

Questioner 2

But did he like rocks?

Brandon Sanderson

He really liked rocks. The fact that he never got to meet Rock is... and throw a bucket of water on him!

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Were there any hints in the books Tien had a Cryptic and would've become a Lightweaver or is that solely extra lore from WoBs?

[alder24]

35 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

Were there any hints in the books Tien had a Cryptic and would've become a Lightweaver or is that solely extra lore from WoBs?

Mostly from WoBs, but there was at least one hint. OB ch 40:

Quote

It is also possible that the Skybreakers knew someone in Amaram’s army was close to bonding a spren, but I believe it likelier that the attack on Amaram was simply a strike against the Sons of Honor. From our spying upon the Skybreakers, we have records showing the only member of Amaram’s army to have bonded a spren was long since eliminated.

The first WoB about it is from may 2018:

Spoiler

Questioner

Was Syl starting to bond with Tien before he died?

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. But Tien was starting to bond a different spren.

Questioner

I was suspecting that he was bonding a spren, but then Syl says, at one point, I think she was familiar with Kaladin's hometown, so I was like, maybe!

Brandon Sanderson

Good question, but no, he was going in a different direction.

Questioner

Can you tell me--

Brandon Sanderson

Lightweaver.

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

 

[AquaRegia he/him]

I would like to welcome Jult to the 17th Shard and give proper mad respect to this absolute storming masterwork of understatement:

On 4/10/2025 at 3:49 PM, Jult said:

I guess not everyone is repressing as many traumas as Shallan.

I have died, become a cognitive shadow, and passed into the Beyond. 

Edited April 28, 2025 by AquaRegia