[Discuss] Taravangian's Stability

[Treamayne]

Split off from this thread (by@Obeythelaw7), a place to discuss details that may state, imply, and/or foreshadow how Stable Retribution is (now-as of the end of WaT) and may become (by SA 6 and/or distant Era 4).

BLUF: Taravangian may be partially stable as Retribution now, but I think the foreshadowing is that he will suffer similar problems as Sazed, but for slighly-different, yet related reasons: Intent Conflicts betwen the parts of Retribution and between the Powers and the Vessel.

Relevant prior posts:

Spoiler

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The books disagree with you. 

HoA Ch 82:

  Hide contents

 Sazed opened eyes as large as the world itself, drawing in power that latticed all of creation.

The Hero will have the power to save the world. But he will also have the power to destroy it.

We never understood. He wouldn’t simply bear the power of Preservation. He needed the power of Ruin as well.

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

<snip>

Rashek and Vin only touched small pieces of it at the Well of Ascension, he realized. I have something more. Something endless.

Ruin and Preservation were dead, and their powers had been joined together. In fact, they belonged together. How had they been split? Someday, perhaps, he would discover the answer to that question.

WaT Ch 145

  Hide contents

No. He couldn’t be dead. No!

Well, he would bring Retribution upon Dalinar for this. He considered destroying Gavinor out of spite, but … no. He revolted at such an act. Gavinor had acted with honor, keeping his promises—and Taravangian had been very careful, during their twenty years of preparation, about what he said.

Part of the power within him was … concerned. Had he acted with honor toward Gavinor?

<snip>

He would have to let Azir keep its land, as they had won, wouldn’t he? Dalinar had broken the contract, but Honor … Honor wanted desperately to follow it—and Taravangian had to be careful lest the power rebel against him.

Harmony may be 3 centuries into the growing dissonance of conflicting Intents - but Retribution only thinks he is less fettered, but on day-one of combining Shards he is already experiencing Intent Conflict causing him to change his plans or making him unable to act as the Vessel would want.

 

8 hours ago, SpartanBrigade said:

That's sort of cherry picking though, especially with the WaT quote. This is the full excerpt 

Spoiler

"Part of the power within him was … concerned. Had he acted with honor toward Gavinor? I did everything I promised him, Taravangian thought. I brought him to get revenge, to claim his kingdom. I never said I wouldn’t interfere. All I did was perfectly in line with my oaths to Gavinor. It was true. The power acknowledged it. That should be that. It calmed while Taravangian pondered. He would have to let Azir keep its land, as they had won, wouldn’t he? Dalinar had broken the contract, but Honor … Honor wanted desperately to follow it—and Taravangian had to be careful lest the power rebel against him. As he determined to do so, Honor swelled inside him, and more fully bonded into Retribution."

There's also this from WaT Chapter 145

Spoiler

"Taravangian, Retribution, reveled in his new strength. He was more powerful than anything. Only one other came close, but those powers were misaligned, while Honor and Odium wanted nearly the same things. They would work together."

Additionally in the quote you sent from The Hero Of Ages further proves the point.
 

Spoiler

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together they created."

The reason he's been able to manage them so far is because he was relatively new and hadn't held the powers for too long so they hadn't warped him yet. In Era 2 he is warping though and he can't act, he can't see, and he's bested by the scouting team. Scadrial would have been destroyed or captured by Autonomy if not for Wax. As of now Retribution is just objectively the more powerful Shard.

 

 

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

You can call it that, but it was not my Intent - I was merely showing that Brandon did Foreshadow Conflicts of Intent in Retribution. There are more references, I just grabbed the first two from that chapter due to time constraints. But we can make a new thread to discuss this in depth after work when I have time, if you would like. 

So, you are doing the same thing? That's the first half of the quote I posted, which ignores the rest of Sazed's Comment at the end of the Chapter:

  Hide contents

Ruin and Preservation were dead, and their powers had been joined together. In fact, they belonged together. How had they been split? Someday, perhaps, he would discover the answer to that question.

All of which is a digression from the point I was actually trying to make:

• Sazed's primary mistake when taking up Ruin and Preservation was having the Intent to specifically keep them separate, but he was still able to use them together fairly easily, at first (HoA timeframe)
• Three centuries later - Sazed is finding difficulty in Acting because even though he is called Harmony, there is no Intent to combine the two powers he holds
  • Even though they are "mingled" now though exposure in a way that no longer makes them easy to separate
• Retribution is in his infancy as a diShardic being and may be having little problem with Intent Conflict so far - but
  • That does not mean he will continue to have no problems, as the Vessel is clearly shown to have to jump though logical "hoops" to keep both halves "happy"
• Therefore: We cannot say that Retribution will or will not continue to have unfettered acccess to both Shards. It is speculation, not fact, that Retribution will not encounter the same, or similar, problems that Harmony experiences. 

I believe that Taravangian is deluding himself on how well he will be able to balance Intents (even if they are not as "opposite" as Harmony's) because we already see him having to "accomodate" at least one intent (Honor) and change his intended actions to keep the mental gymnastics to appease the partially sentient Shard.

Right off the bat, we see that Taravangian is willing to placate Honor, but does not understand Honor nearly as well as Dalinar did (though his blindspot does match the Shard's own blindspot at this point) WaT Ch 143:

Spoiler

The strength of Honor—which Dalinar had held for mere minutes—again made a corona around him. This time, it radiated betrayal and confusion.

You understood me! it cried.

Better than you think, Dalinar returned. There are still lessons to learn, stories to tell, but you cannot learn them with me. For you are not Honor. Not yet. Honor is far more than an oath kept.

<snip>

“With this,” Taravangian whispered, “I am certain to win. Listen to me, Honor. I did not break the contract. I kept my oaths. I have let myself be bound by them again and again. I understand you, and how you feel right now. I AM WORTHY.”

Dalinar held his breath. There was a lesson taught in the game towers, once you started to think you were strong enough …

The power paused, and looked toward Dalinar.

Go, Dalinar said. Watch. Learn.

The power accepted Taravangian at Dalinar’s urging.

So, from the beginning we see the power was reticent (and very different from the eagerness expressed by Odium's Shard in RoW) and only accepted the Vessel because Dalinar urged it to do so to learn Honor better. We also have the first seed of taravangian's mistake - claiming to "kept my oaths" - when he did anything but (because he kept the letter, while breaking the spirit of every Oath - which Rayse also did, but Rayse was not trying to become a diShardic vessel).

We see the trend continue, as Taravangian continues to show that while he is great at lying to others, that skill is paltry compared to his ability to lie to himself. WaT Ch 145:

Spoiler

He was more powerful than anything. Only one other came close, but those powers were misaligned, while Honor and Odium wanted nearly the same things. They would work together.

Though something … something about his predecessor … echoed to him from the past. Rayse had never wanted this. He’d killed several other gods, and refused their power.

Was he a fool? He must have been. Because this was glorious. 

Honor - binding and keeping Oaths wants "nearly the same thing" as Eternal Hatred and related negative passion? Really? Then he dismisses the echoes of Tanavast and decides Rayse was wrong to not want to merge Shards (Note: he does not reason his way to that conclusion - he "feels" that Rayse must be wrong because he is enjoying the feeling of power).

His second act in the same chapter already shows him acknowledging the precarious tightrope he now must tread:

Spoiler

If he could be undermined, it would be by them. He breathed in, reaching to draw all spren—of Odium, and of Honor—to him. Those only of Cultivation he’d have to find and—

Nothing happened. As he tried to draw the spren toward him, the power refused to absorb them.

They are protected, his powers said.

“By what?” Retribution demanded.

By an oath and a circle, the powers said. By Adonalsium’s strength. Ten stand against you, using the piece of us within them. Honor demands their oaths be followed.

That was frustrating. He was supposed to be unrivaled, but his power … He saw that he’d have to be careful. Not act against its will, or he’d suffer Tanavast’s fate.

There should be a way.

The the mental gymnastics start, as he tries to defend his betrayal of Gavinor to his own power, barely succeeding (for now) though "exact words":

Spoiler

He considered destroying Gavinor out of spite, but … no. He revolted at such an act. Gavinor had acted with honor, keeping his promises—and Taravangian had been very careful, during their twenty years of preparation, about what he said.

Part of the power within him was … concerned. Had he acted with honor toward Gavinor?

I did everything I promised him, Taravangian thought. I brought him to get revenge, to claim his kingdom. I never said I wouldn’t interfere. All I did was perfectly in line with my oaths to Gavinor.

It was true. The power acknowledged it. That should be that.

I'm out of time tonight, so I'll stop here and add more references later, unless already added by others. Not to mention the references @SpartanBrigade showed about how well the powers are working (for now).

[Ashbringer he/him]

I thought this was a pretty big part of Dalinar's plan (if you can call a vision-and-snap-decision a plan). Honor clearly already is limiting what Odium should have been fairly easily capable of - perhaps Odium wouldn't have been able to easily destroy the Spren of Honor, but if Taravangian hadn't taken up Honor he'd have been free to do with Roshar as he saw fit until either Cultivation or the unVesseled Honor opposed him directly. 

Meanwhile, Honor is already learning - already thinking about the idea of Honor besides Oaths. As that continues, I think Taravangian will find himself more and more restricted in the whole conquering business. Maybe that ends with a more tempered Retribution, maybe that ends with Honor Splintering itself off Taravangian and then the now-single-Shardic Odium being squashed by Discord.

 

I think it is interesting how the two di-Shards seem to be destabilizing, though. Preservation and Ruin are opposed, nearly diametrically so, and yet lead to a mostly-stable Harmony; and even when Harmony destabilizes, that leads to a different intent of Discord. Meanwhile Retribution is less opposed (both are still willing to do certain things, like grind Dalinar and Hoid into a pulp, apparently), but the Shard seems less like Honor will rebalance the Intent to something more Honorable and more like Honor will just break off entirely.

Which might be just a metric of us never really getting a Harmony viewpoint.

[therunner he/him]

I sort of agree, sort of disagree.

I see it that Ruin+Preservation is inherently unstable combination, due to opposing Intents of the Shards. They can be held in artificial stasis through inaction (Harmony) or they can be used in opposition (?), leading to Discord, who will be capable of acting, but likely with unpleasant consequences.

Whereas there is nothing inherently unstable about Honor+Odium, but Taravangian is not suitable wielder of the now-expanding Shard of Honor.
If Honor was still the same as during Tanavast's reign, I don't think Taravangian would have issues as Retribution, he is perfectly willing to keep his word and is careful how he positions himself, which is sufficient to placate the Shard.

But now that Honor is evolving, his inherent dishonesty/dishonor will eventually lead him to trouble.

So I agree that Taravangian won't be stable holder of the Shards, but that is due to Taravangian, not the powers themselves. This is different from Harmony, where Sazed is good holder of the Shards, but the Shards are poor match.

Edited April 10, 2025 by therunner

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

His second act in the same chapter already shows him acknowledging the precarious tightrope he now must tread:

  Reveal hidden contents

You know, something interesting just occurred to me.

Both powers didn't want to destroy the Spren, not just Honor but also Odium as well. Interesting, that the Shard of Odium would care about an Oath now when it spent thousands of years pushing Rayse to just destroy Roshar to get out of being trapped.

Or maybe this isn't Odium itself, but the burgeoning sapience of Honor spreading to Odium while they are merged?

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

Seeing everyone's points here's sold me, I don't think Retribution will remain stable either anymore

[Cosmer]

Agree on his lack of stability...

Next question would be, which shard gives Taravangian the best chance of gaining more stability (and furthering his goal of ONLY shard)? Feels like that's where he would want to go ASAP - even before eliminating other threats. 

Also - I know lots of people think adding Autonomy would allow Harmony to better direct P & R, but is that the best option as well? Or just most likely given Autonomy's involvement in Scadrial

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

2 minutes ago, Cosmer said:

Agree on his lack of stability...

Next question would be, which shard gives Taravangian the best chance of gaining more stability (and furthering his goal of ONLY shard)? Feels like that's where he would want to go ASAP - even before eliminating other threats. 

Also - I know lots of people think adding Autonomy would allow Harmony to better direct P & R, but is that the best option as well? Or just most likely given Autonomy's involvement in Scadrial

For Harmony probably both the best option and most likely. What Sazed is lacking right now IS Autonomy since he's being yanked between the two other Shard's Intents. I don't know if he would take up the Shard though or if he even could considering there are so many avatars I'm not really sure how that would work. If you kill Bavadin does she drop Autonomy or would you have to take out all of her avatars too? Would killing her make her avatars lose their power or would it make them stronger or weaker or the same? 

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

Okay, additional thoughts/counterpoints to some of the arguments here, and this is coming form a place of relative ignorance regarding WoB's, but working with what i know from the books/coppermind. Here are some things both harmony and retribution have working towards them stabilizing as shards, as well as potential pitfalls they might encounter.

 
Retribution was granted "the capacity to prevent the coming calamity" by Cultivation. is becoming a di-shard the fulfillment of this boon? or is that fulfillment yet to come? could she have prepared him with this rare possibility in mind? knowing he would take up both shards if things went how she hoped, could she have cultivated in him the capacity to stabilize them? assuming that is true, he may well be able to focus their intents in a single direction and stabilize. simply by the virtue of being chosen and prepared by cultivation for that express purpose.. however, if the fulfillment of Koravellium's boon was simply his ability to plan a way to reach that point, be the right vessel, and take up the shards. then that leaves him stranded in the endless ocean with no way to paddle. he would be the weaker of the two for sure because he has to learn to focus the two powers with their adjacent intents in a single direction. which takes time and weakens him. 

Harmony, as stated in the HoA, was "of one mind" about how to use them. clearly as time goes on, he has seen a need to change that mind, and said change is destabilizing him. however, he has direct experience in unifying the two opposing powers toward a common goal that meets both intents. he understand that both ruin and preservation are needed for the world to function. so could his experience in wrangling the two shards give him an edge? on the other hand, Sazed's nature was that of pacifism, so even if he knows he needs to focus the intent of the shards, how much more difficult will that be when that intent needs to oppose his own intent as a formerly human vessel? how much can the vessels intent actually change the intent of a shard before the power rejects the vessel? is there potential for Sazed to split the shards again by trying to reign himself in as discord?

1 hour ago, SpartanBrigade said:

For Harmony probably both the best option and most likely. What Sazed is lacking right now IS Autonomy since he's being yanked between the two other Shard's Intents. I don't know if he would take up the Shard though or if he even could considering there are so many avatars I'm not really sure how that would work. If you kill Bavadin does she drop Autonomy or would you have to take out all of her avatars too? Would killing her make her avatars lose their power or would it make them stronger or weaker or the same? 

I like this idea. in a starkly Sandersonian way, the fact that two shards are inherently unstable, while three seem theoretically more stable, matches up with our knowledge of how things work in the real world. (i.e. tables, chairs, and balances of power within government structures.) a two legged table can't decide which way to fall, but it will inevitably fall. meanwhile a three legged table works just as well if not better than even a four legged one.

 

13 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I thought this was a pretty big part of Dalinar's plan (if you can call a vision-and-snap-decision a plan). Honor clearly already is limiting what Odium should have been fairly easily capable of - perhaps Odium wouldn't have been able to easily destroy the Spren of Honor, but if Taravangian hadn't taken up Honor he'd have been free to do with Roshar as he saw fit until either Cultivation or the unVesseled Honor opposed him directly. 

Meanwhile, Honor is already learning - already thinking about the idea of Honor besides Oaths. As that continues, I think Taravangian will find himself more and more restricted in the whole conquering business. Maybe that ends with a more tempered Retribution, maybe that ends with Honor Splintering itself off Taravangian and then the now-single-Shardic Odium being squashed by Discord.

 

I think it is interesting how the two di-Shards seem to be destabilizing, though. Preservation and Ruin are opposed, nearly diametrically so, and yet lead to a mostly-stable Harmony; and even when Harmony destabilizes, that leads to a different intent of Discord. Meanwhile Retribution is less opposed (both are still willing to do certain things, like grind Dalinar and Hoid into a pulp, apparently), but the Shard seems less like Honor will rebalance the Intent to something more Honorable and more like Honor will just break off entirely.

Which might be just a metric of us never really getting a Harmony viewpoint.

I had thought of this as well. The full effects of the change that Dalinar made to honor, in the brief time he could, are still largely unknown. there are lots of effects to this. what are the chances that taravangian has a sudden change of heart and his "compassionate, but dumb" side comes out and he changes plans and intents. what if he split the powers and lost odium becoming honor alone. what if, Stormfather help us all, Moash took up Odium...*shivers*... Okay, thats enough theorizing for one day. I have scared myself.

[Treamayne]

15 minutes ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

Retribution was granted "the capacity to prevent the coming calamity" by Cultivation. is becoming a di-shard the fulfillment of this boon? or is that fulfillment yet to come?

That was supposed to be setting him up to become Odium. 

By giving him the capacity to bear the Shard (extreme emotion days) he was able to prevent the war and slaughter of humanity - he just changed his mind once he actually became Odium.

 

 

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

That was supposed to be setting him up to become Odium. 

By giving him the capacity to bear the Shard (extreme emotion days) he was able to prevent the war and slaughter of humanity - he just changed his mind once he actually became Odium.

 

 

I think that last statement alone is enough to condemn him, definitively, as an asshole.

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

3 hours ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

I think that last statement alone is enough to condemn him, definitively, as an asshole.

It’s canon folks, Odium is officially an asshole 

4 hours ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

Okay, additional thoughts/counterpoints to some of the arguments here, and this is coming form a place of relative ignorance regarding WoB's, but working with what i know from the books/coppermind. Here are some things both harmony and retribution have working towards them stabilizing as shards, as well as potential pitfalls they might encounter.

 
Retribution was granted "the capacity to prevent the coming calamity" by Cultivation. is becoming a di-shard the fulfillment of this boon? or is that fulfillment yet to come? could she have prepared him with this rare possibility in mind? knowing he would take up both shards if things went how she hoped, could she have cultivated in him the capacity to stabilize them? assuming that is true, he may well be able to focus their intents in a single direction and stabilize. simply by the virtue of being chosen and prepared by cultivation for that express purpose.. however, if the fulfillment of Koravellium's boon was simply his ability to plan a way to reach that point, be the right vessel, and take up the shards. then that leaves him stranded in the endless ocean with no way to paddle. he would be the weaker of the two for sure because he has to learn to focus the two powers with their adjacent intents in a single direction. which takes time and weakens him. 

Harmony, as stated in the HoA, was "of one mind" about how to use them. clearly as time goes on, he has seen a need to change that mind, and said change is destabilizing him. however, he has direct experience in unifying the two opposing powers toward a common goal that meets both intents. he understand that both ruin and preservation are needed for the world to function. so could his experience in wrangling the two shards give him an edge? on the other hand, Sazed's nature was that of pacifism, so even if he knows he needs to focus the intent of the shards, how much more difficult will that be when that intent needs to oppose his own intent as a formerly human vessel? how much can the vessels intent actually change the intent of a shard before the power rejects the vessel? is there potential for Sazed to split the shards again by trying to reign himself in as discord?

I like this idea. in a starkly Sandersonian way, the fact that two shards are inherently unstable, while three seem theoretically more stable, matches up with our knowledge of how things work in the real world. (i.e. tables, chairs, and balances of power within government structures.) a two legged table can't decide which way to fall, but it will inevitably fall. meanwhile a three legged table works just as well if not better than even a four legged one.

 

I had thought of this as well. The full effects of the change that Dalinar made to honor, in the brief time he could, are still largely unknown. there are lots of effects to this. what are the chances that taravangian has a sudden change of heart and his "compassionate, but dumb" side comes out and he changes plans and intents. what if he split the powers and lost odium becoming honor alone. what if, Stormfather help us all, Moash took up Odium...*shivers*... Okay, thats enough theorizing for one day. I have scared myself.

We know a holder is able to pretty dramatically alter the Shard without getting kicked out, Tanavast just pushed too far too quickly. We’ve learned that Ruin was originally waaay more destructive but Ati was able influence it to be a reaper type figure, there to help the world wind down at the end of its time rather than just a force of nature lusting for complete destruction. As for the bit about the powers and Taravangian it’s a (I think?) fairly popular theory that in the end Pdkum is going to end up abandoning Taravangian and going to Ba-Ado-Mishram instead. She would be a much better vessel as she’s a genuinely good person. Spirit. Spren. Thing. We’ve already learned that the powers want her too. There’s another theory that I think is a bit less popular but I could still see happening; the other half of Retribution (Honor) breaks off and is taken up by Adolin Kholin leaving our two new gods as Adolin and BAM. I could see it happening on a personal level as Adolin’s arc seems to be accepting both his differences and his similarities to Dalinar. Additionally he is one of the most honorable characters in the series and in WaT he struggled with feeling like he’s just a regular useless guy in a world of gods and Radiants. I could see this being a Sazed situation where the unassuming guy ends up taking the powers of god. For Mistborn Sazed was friends with Kelsier and Vin, the larger than life revolutionary and the woman we thought would be the Hero of Ages but in the end it was humble, loyal, unassuming Sazed who became the god. I could see a similar thing happening with Adolin and his dynamics with Kaladin, Dalinar, and the rest.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, SpartanBrigade said:

We know a holder is able to pretty dramatically alter the Shard without getting kicked out

Do you have a source for that, because that does not match known information. Vessels can nudge a Shard slightly, but the Shard will generally have a much greater impact on the Vessel over time.

Spoiler

<Edited for length and relevance>

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)

We don't have confirmation, but the trend (based on current known data) is that Vessels that constrict their view of the intent seem to be successful (Ruin limiting to Entropic expressions of the Intent - at least at first); while Vessels that try to widen the definition fail (Odium, hopeing to be considered "Passion" if only saying it often enough worked). I think it is more like a Venn Diagram, if the Vessel's expression of the intent is entirely inside the actual intent - no problems. If part of the Vessel's expression of Intent drifts outside of the actual Intent - problems (like the Sja Anat Interlude in RoW):

Spoiler

You will not go to the tower, Odium said. He hated how she referred to the Sibling—the slumbering child of Honor and Cultivation—as her cousin. But we are about to make a ploy with the betrayal of the man Taravangian. You will watch him.

“I would be of much more use in the tower,” she said. “Better that I—”

You question? Do not question.

“I will not question.” However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power … It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion.

There was a weakness here. In the division between the Vessel and the Shard.

 

 

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Do you have a source for that, because that does not match known information. Vessels can nudge a Shard slightly, but the Shard will generally have a much greater impact on the Vessel over time.

  Hide contents

<Edited for length and relevance>

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)

We don't have confirmation, but the trend (based on current known data) is that Vessels that constrict their view of the intent seem to be successful (Ruin limiting to Entropic expressions of the Intent - at least at first); while Vessels that try to widen the definition fail (Odium, hopeing to be considered "Passion" if only saying it often enough worked). I think it is more like a Venn Diagram, if the Vessel's expression of the intent is entirely inside the actual intent - no problems. If part of the Vessel's expression of Intent drifts outside of the actual Intent - problems (like the Sja Anat Interlude in RoW):

  Hide contents

You will not go to the tower, Odium said. He hated how she referred to the Sibling—the slumbering child of Honor and Cultivation—as her cousin. But we are about to make a ploy with the betrayal of the man Taravangian. You will watch him.

“I would be of much more use in the tower,” she said. “Better that I—”

You question? Do not question.

“I will not question.” However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power … It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion.

There was a weakness here. In the division between the Vessel and the Shard.

 

 

I know it works both ways with the Shard having more of an effect on the holder than the holder has on them. I was mostly working off Ati channeling Ruin toward entropy and doing his best to tone down its desire for destruction. Also as a side note “But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.” I always found this a little funny because I get where he’s coming from but at the same time Ruin’s a megalomaniacal mustache twirling villain who whispers lies of despair and manipulation and Odium is… Odium. Plus he showed up after Tanavast was rejected by Honor just to be an asshole. Like he had no reason to do that he just wanted to lol

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

Also as a side note “But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.” I always found this a little funny because I get where he’s coming from but at the same time Ruin’s a megalomaniacal mustache twirling villain who whispers lies of despair and manipulation and Odium is… Odium. Plus he showed up after Tanavast was rejected by Honor just to be an asshole. Like he had no reason to do that he just wanted to lol

Note - Brandon did not say that Vessels were not Evil - just the Shard, the power itself, is not Evil. The Intent of Ruin - that all things break down and end is not Evil, though Ati may have become so by the end with most of his original personality wiped out by the Shard's pressure.

And Rayse was almost assuredly an Evil $%^&*( as a mortal, and only worse once he became a Vessel.

Edited April 11, 2025 by Treamayne

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

19 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Note - Brandon did not say that Vessels were not Evil - just the Shard, the power itself, is not Evil. The Intent of Ruin - that all things break down and end is not Evil, though Ati may have become so by the end with most of his original personality wiped out by the Shard's pressure.

And Rayse was almost assuredly an Evil $%^&*( as a mortal, and only worse once he became a Vessel.

Yeah agreed. I’m really looking forward to seeing the Vessels pre Ascension in Dragonsteel. That’s the part I’m looking forward to the most, specifically the Rayse-Kor-Tanavast situation and Ati just being the best. 

[Nitpicking]

On 4/10/2025 at 9:14 PM, SpartanBrigade said:

Yeah agreed. I’m really looking forward to seeing the Vessels pre Ascension in Dragonsteel.

How's your futuresight? If I have the timeline right, it'll be 25 years at an absolute minimum before Brandon starts writing Dragonsteel. (10 year gap minimum before the Back Five, 2 years minimum to write each of five Stormlight books, then a ridiculously optimistic 5 years for the Space Age Mistborn trilogy, unless he does Dragonsteel before the Space Age.)

[Treamayne]

55 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

10 year gap minimum before the Back Five,

Not quite (it's 10ish years in-world) - the current plan from the State of the Sanderson:

Spoiler

So we’re looking at a 6-year gap, instead of a 3-year gap this time, assuming that plan above works as I think it will.   

• Fall 2025: Isles of the Emberdark (Crowdfunding fulfillment)
• December 2025: Tailored Realities
• Early 2026: Isles of the Emberdark (Tor release)
• Spring/Summer 2026: Skyward Legacy One (?)
• December 2026: Dark One or Isaac’s Cosmere Novel
• Sometime 2027: Dark One or Isaac’s Cosmere Novel
• December 2028: Ghostbloods 1
• Summer 2029: Elantris 2
• December 2029: Ghostbloods 2
• Summer 2030: Elantris 3
• December 2030: Ghostbloods 3
• December 2031: Stormlight 6

Still quite a long time until the Dragonsteel Trilogy

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

1 hour ago, Nitpicking said:

How's your futuresight? If I have the timeline right, it'll be 25 years at an absolute minimum before Brandon starts writing Dragonsteel. (10 year gap minimum before the Back Five, 2 years minimum to write each of five Stormlight books, then a ridiculously optimistic 5 years for the Space Age Mistborn trilogy, unless he does Dragonsteel before the Space Age.)

Futuresight’s a little rusty, I think the last time I glimpsed a world shattering event was May 28th last year. Anyways like Treamayne said it shouldn’t be quite that long, you underestimate Brandon’s power. If I recall correctly Dragonsteel comes before Mistborn Era 4 as well

Edited April 12, 2025 by SpartanBrigade

[Nitpicking]

On 4/11/2025 at 11:18 PM, SpartanBrigade said:

Futuresight’s a little rusty, I think the last time I glimpsed a world shattering event was May 28th last year. Anyways like Treamayne said it shouldn’t be quite that long, you underestimate Brandon’s power. If I recall correctly Dragonsteel comes before Mistborn Era 4 as well

Brandon's an amazingly fast writer, but he also keeps adding more stuff to the list of future works, e. g. the entire Wax and Wayne series, the Secret Projects, Isles of the Emberdark. And the time between Stormlight books is always longer than he intends. Granted, occasionally something is removed or delayed, e. g. he originally intended the Warbreaker sequel to come between books of the Front Five.

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

On 4/10/2025 at 4:15 PM, SpartanBrigade said:

As for the bit about the powers and Taravangian it’s a (I think?) fairly popular theory that in the end Pdkum is going to end up abandoning Taravangian and going to Ba-Ado-Mishram instead. She would be a much better vessel as she’s a genuinely good person. Spirit. Spren. Thing. We’ve already learned that the powers want her too. There’s another theory that I think is a bit less popular but I could still see happening; the other half of Retribution (Honor) breaks off and is taken up by Adolin Kholin leaving our two new gods as Adolin and BAM. I could see it happening on a personal level as Adolin’s arc seems to be accepting both his differences and his similarities to Dalinar. Additionally he is one of the most honorable characters in the series and in WaT he struggled with feeling like he’s just a regular useless guy in a world of gods and Radiants. I could see this being a Sazed situation where the unassuming guy ends up taking the powers of god. For Mistborn Sazed was friends with Kelsier and Vin, the larger than life revolutionary and the woman we thought would be the Hero of Ages but in the end it was humble, loyal, unassuming Sazed who became the god. I could see a similar thing happening with Adolin and his dynamics with Kaladin, Dalinar, and the rest.

oh, wow. that is interesting. With Taravangian's current plans and his historical tendency toward lighting the world on fire just to to keep humanity warm, because that is the burden a king bears or whatever his excuse may be. I don't think he would last long with just honor as the one shard, especially with honor growing and learning what true honor is. but I dont know who would take it up after that. maybe rlain, szeth or navani. I don't know, no one makes sense for the power right now. At least not to me. but a part of me wonders if cultivation planted a seed in lift that makes her a candidate for the shard later on? otherwise I would root for szeth to take up honor if that ever happened, dude deserves it way more than taravangian.  

I agree that Adolin would be a great vessel for honor, but i hate the idea for two reasons. one, because he turned down the throne, he would do the same with the shard. second, because I don't want to see him or Shallan have to struggle in their relationship. they have both been through enough and him having to live long enough to watch her grow old and die would be an injustice. vice versa, Shallan does not need to lose her husband to godhood.

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

6 hours ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

oh, wow. that is interesting. With Taravangian's current plans and his historical tendency toward lighting the world on fire just to to keep humanity warm, because that is the burden a king bears or whatever his excuse may be. I don't think he would last long with just honor as the one shard, especially with honor growing and learning what true honor is. but I dont know who would take it up after that. maybe rlain, szeth or navani. I don't know, no one makes sense for the power right now. At least not to me. but a part of me wonders if cultivation planted a seed in lift that makes her a candidate for the shard later on? otherwise I would root for szeth to take up honor if that ever happened, dude deserves it way more than taravangian.  

I agree that Adolin would be a great vessel for honor, but i hate the idea for two reasons. one, because he turned down the throne, he would do the same with the shard. second, because I don't want to see him or Shallan have to struggle in their relationship. they have both been through enough and him having to live long enough to watch her grow old and die would be an injustice. vice versa, Shallan does not need to lose her husband to godhood.

Oh that is a good point about Shallan and Adolin. I wonder if Taln might take it up. He’s going to be a viewpoint for one of the books and out of everyone we have so far he seems like the perfect candidate (although he might be too perfect that feels too obvious)

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

On 4/10/2025 at 5:15 PM, SpartanBrigade said:

it’s a (I think?) fairly popular theory that in the end Pdkum is going to end up abandoning Taravangian and going to Ba-Ado-Mishram instead. She would be a much better vessel as she’s a genuinely good person. Spirit. Spren. Thing. We’ve already learned that the powers want her too. There’s another theory that I think is a bit less popular but I could still see happening; the other half of Retribution (Honor) breaks off and is taken up by Adolin Kholin leaving our two new gods as Adolin and BAM. I could see it happening on a personal level as Adolin’s arc seems to be accepting both his differences and his similarities to Dalinar.

 

Oh, this actually would play really nicely with one of the ideas I had about what might be done with the whole "Well, we can't imprison BAM forever, because it jacks up the planetary vibes, but also she's genocide levels of angry" tension:

I feel like having Bondsmiths for the Unmade just makes sense. They are big Spren. Taravangian wants to keep himself at a remove from his operations for safety reasons; even if he doesn't have to worry about other shards just coming at him, I assume he understands that making a body to show up himself like Rayse did is a way to get stabbed with Nightblood. There's a lot of usefulness in having ways to distribute huge amounts of Light and cross between the different realms.

Maybe there is some mechanics of the magic that makes this impossible, but I kinda assume Taravangian is going to want to keep the process of having Spren form Nahel bonds with physical realm beings to produce invested fighters. The Fused are good for producing combat veterans who can train Radiants, but otherwise it seems pretty clear that a Radiant in Shardplate is just a far superior warrior than the typical Fused.

This all eventually getting away from Taravangian, because he's trying to be a singular god-king and that is a lot of spinning plates to keep up, and ending in him getting ripped apart by some version of Adolin alongside a version of Ba-Ado-Mishram who has usurped the everstorm or something would be neat.

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

I feel like having Bondsmiths for the Unmade just makes sense. They are big Spren. Taravangian wants to keep himself at a remove from his operations for safety reasons; even if he doesn't have to worry about other shards just coming at him, I assume he understands that making a body to show up himself like Rayse did is a way to get stabbed with Nightblood. There's a lot of usefulness in having ways to distribute huge amounts of Light and cross between the different realms.

Maybe there is some mechanics of the magic that makes this impossible, but I kinda assume Taravangian is going to want to keep the process of having Spren form Nahel bonds with physical realm beings to produce invested fighters. The Fused are good for producing combat veterans who can train Radiants, but otherwise it seems pretty clear that a Radiant in Shardplate is just a far superior warrior than the typical Fused.

Like making evil Knights Radiant? Basically overextending himself until he gets got by Adolin and BAM?

[Nitpicking]

On 4/16/2025 at 1:22 AM, SpartanBrigade said:

Like making evil Knights Radiant? Basically overextending himself until he gets got by Adolin and BAM?

Taravangian is exactly the sort of person who would try to make evil Heralds (who he thinks of as true heroes, of course) to counter the Ten. Nothing stops his willing subjects on Roshar from swearing oaths. If he can find and recruit, say, Ghostbloods (or any worldhoppers) from Scadrial (who have a Connection to Harmony), he could make an Oathpact to bind Sazed, since he's now Honor.

[LeondeBowa]

I remember in the sunlit man, when they realised the protagonist was roshiran they were very interested if he had sworn oaths.

It implies that roshirans are considered dangerous because of their oaths, which seems out of sorts for the standard knights radiant