Implications of the timeline [discuss]

[+Oltux72 he/him]

We now have confirmation that Wind and Truth predates Era 2 of Mistborn. This means that Autonomy attacked Scadrial knowing that Roshar had fallen to Retribution. Can we conclude that Autonomy and Retribution have allied? Or did she just continue older plans? If so, does that mean that she does not care about the balance of power?

[Hexagonal He/Him]

Retribution went into hiding as of the end of WaT(IIRC), as the whole cosmere was now aware of him. I think it is reasonable that Retribution going into hiding while roshar got back on the right time scale left an opportunity for Autonomy to attack her only other main threat(Harmony, as a dual shard). It would seem reasonable(to me at least), that Roshar being all timey-wimey and retribution being gone allow Autonomy to ignore him, for now.

[therunner he/him]

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

We now have confirmation that Wind and Truth predates Era 2 of Mistborn. This means that Autonomy attacked Scadrial knowing that Roshar had fallen to Retribution. Can we conclude that Autonomy and Retribution have allied? Or did she just continue older plans?

I think she just opportunistically seized the moment, triggering her pre-existing plans.

She clearly had plans for Scadrial even before (religion of Trellagism and mentions of Trell), and with other Shard being distracted by Retribution, it makes sense to make use of that distraction.
 

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If so, does that mean that she does not care about the balance of power?

Likely she does not, what with her general expansion of powerbase via Avatars. Currently Autonomy has impact on the greatest number of worlds in Cosmere, so she likely wants to maintain that power for herself.

[Treamayne]

20 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

does that mean that she does not care about the balance of power?

Autonomy and Odium had the same goal, but with different methodologies. Odium wants to be the Only Diety - but splintering all rivals. Autonomy wants to be the only diety, by replacing other shards with Avatars of herself. WoBs:

Spoiler

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WinespringBrother

Given that Shards, and perhaps, Ascended beings, have intents similar to their names...

Brandon Sanderson

More that they have names similar to their intents.

WinespringBrother

So, would Unity be a natural enemy of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... Possibly. You say "natural," and so I--

WinespringBrother

Well, would one eliminate the other one? But more towards Autonomy trying to break up--

Brandon Sanderson

To break up Unity. It's so hard to say, because Autonomy is a bit of a strange duck. Like, what counts as being Autonomous? Is absorbing everything and becoming one again Autonomous or not? That's kind of your question that you get into. And the way Autonomy looks at it right now, is no. Autonomy wants to remain Autonomy. Autonomy does not want to be corrupted by anything else. And Autonomy would think the Shards are better on their own. But is this a natural effect, or part of the-- Does that make sense?

WinespringBrother

Well, but it's also along the lines of, Odium wants to break up the other ones, so they don't--

Brandon Sanderson

Odium just wants to be top dog. And your two ways to be top dog are to climb higher, or to lower everyone else. And he's like, we're gonna lower everyone else. Because I know, if I combine, it stops being me, is what his opinion is. I would no longer be the person I am. I would change into someone else. And then that person gets to rule, and I don't want that person to rule. I want to.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

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emailanimal

[Brandon] must have had enough of chuckles every time someone referred to Bavadin as a "he" over the past few years.....

Brandon Sanderson

Bavadin has several male personas, and has often appeared as male for one purpose or another, so it's not that much of an issue. She has more female personas, but some of the male ones are quite popular.

This won't be relevant for a long while, but as a service to the community, let me say this: try not to get too hung up on gender, race, or even human appearance where Bavadin is concerned. There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.

Argent

There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.

I think that's hilarious.

I've been meaning to ask a similar question for a few days now, I am glad someone else did and you replied. Bavadin is now instantly super interesting to me!

Brandon Sanderson

Bavadin is awesome. One regret of finally moving on from White Sand (and doing the graphic novel, instead of doing an entire trilogy myself) is because I won't get to show her off as a character for a while. It should still happen, mind you, but I have enough on my plate right now that I just can't do it all.

Argent

Eh, it's alright. The more we wait to see her, the more practice writing you will have when you do write her, and the more awesome she will be to us Are we going to see her in White Sand first though, or elsewhere?

I've also been talking with a couple of friends about Ambition, who happens to be a Shard I love unconditionally just because of his?her? mandate. So I should ask - how tight-lipped do you intend to be with information about it? Can we prod for a little bit of trivia, or is it too early for that?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to be pretty tight-lipped for now. Let's at least let White Sand finish first--you will find her in there, though her touch on the story (directly) is light. She prefers to allow her personas to become the focus of attention.

General Reddit 2016 (Nov. 28, 2016)

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strican

In The Lost Metal, it mentions Autonomy having avatars in other worlds. In Shu-Dereth on Sel, Jaddeth speaks directly to Wyrn, who then propagates his will down the hierarchy-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

strican

Within the religion, ambition is rewarded, but only if it aligns with the orders of the hierarchy. That sounds similar to the philosophy used in the Set, but replacing Jaddeth with Trell. Is Jaddeth an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

*chuckles and points at screen in very satisfied way* RAFO. You're a very smart person.

It's [pronounced] "Yaddeth", by the way. That is also one of the Y-J's. ...

So, I will say this. Here's what I'll canonize. There is something happening, and the people there legitimately believe, and have reason to believe, that their god is going to return. And I have said before, many times, that Book 2 of Elantris begins with the return of their god. 'Cause they've said "God can't come back until everybody converts". But they've found a loophole. They're like "well, except those heretics in Elantris. And also that other little place, that tiny little region that's over in the mountains, where they talk about roses, they don't count either. Because they're, um, not actually part of the planet." Um, so. So that's something to look forward to, if I ever get around to writing Dakhor, is the return of Jaddeth, the god of [Shu-Dereth].

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Hope that helps

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

by replacing other shards with Avatars of herself. WoBs:

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Autonomy wants to remain Autonomy. Autonomy does not want to be corrupted by anything else. And Autonomy would think the Shards are better on their own. But is this a natural effect, or part of the-- Does that make sense?

I have a different view on this: It seems like Autonomy just wants to maintain the order of 16. Harmony is a problem for her because Sazed formed a dishard. I imagine Retribution is next on her list of people to try to break up.

Fusing shards together denies the Autonomy of their individual Intents. Until I see some other motive, this feels like the simplest and best explanation of why she acts like she does. Creating Avatars in various places is, to my mind, more just a way to try to do good without becoming the monogod ruler of everything. The fact religions she has influenced promote ambition would seem like a design on restoring the first Shard that Odium wrecked.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I have a different view on this: It seems like Autonomy just wants to maintain the order of 16. Harmony is a problem for her because Sazed formed a dishard. I imagine Retribution is next on her list of people to try to break up.

Fusing shards together denies the Autonomy of their individual Intents. Until I see some other motive, this feels like the simplest and best explanation of why she acts like she does.

An interesting take - but the points of that WoB were how Odium wanted to destroy rivals and Autonomy want's be herself - last shard standing (not combined - though I have a separate odd theory about this). We get a partial explanation of Bavadin's Goals in TLM Ch 20 (though this is Shai talking - so unreliable narrator may apply):

Spoiler

Let’s say you had one of only sixteen extremely rare pieces of art by the same artist. What would you do to ensure yours becomes the most valuable?”

“If I play along,” Marasi said, “will you tell me about Trell?”

“I’m trying to, right now.”

Marasi frowned, considering. “I have one of sixteen pieces of art … and I must ensure mine is the most valuable?”

“Yup.”

“I’d try to create an air of mystique around it,” Marasi said. “I wouldn’t show it off. I’d let the other fifteen become common by comparison—and the value of mine would increase as people shared the story. There is one more. One no one has seen.”

“Clever,” Moonlight said. “I’m impressed.”

“And what would you do?” Marasi said.

“Steal the other fifteen,” Moonlight said. “Then I’d be able to manipulate the market however I wanted.”

“Ruthless.”

“Not as ruthless as other options. These pieces of art exist, Marasi, and your planet’s god holds two of them.”

“Ruin and Preservation.”

“Indeed. That makes Harmony the most valuable—the most Invested—being in the cosmere. One of the other sixteen decided the best way to improve his stock was to try to destroy all the others. He managed it in a few cases.”

“And … is that Trell?”

Moonlight shook her head. “No, his name is Odium. Trell—Autonomy—had a different idea. You see these buildings? These houses? All pieces of a larger art installation. The grand creation is impressive, but it’s not yours. This kind of pattern, and those straight lines, those reflective panels … that’s from a Taldain movement known as brutalism.

“That’s part of what I hate about Autonomy. She claims she wants everyone to be individual. Gives them each a little house that is distinctive from the others, but only in a way that fits her plan, her desires. It’s fake individualism. A corporate uniqueness. Like an advertisement telling people to go their own way, be their own person—by buying this product like everyone else.”

Marasi struggled to parse all of this. But what she understood reinforced what she had suspected. A being from another planet was leading this city, and had plans for the people of Marasi’s world.

“What is Trell’s goal, then?” Marasi asked. “If he doesn’t want to destroy the other gods?”

“Trell is trying to edge out the others,” Moonlight said. “She—he, they, it varies—doesn’t like engaging other gods directly. We call them Shards, by the way. Autonomy is trying to outcompete the others by filling the cosmere with versions of herself. Crowd out the competition, so to speak. Like an extremely invasive plant moving into another ecosystem and strangling the local varieties.”

Marasi frowned. “I … think I understand.”

“Conversations about Autonomy can be confusing,” Moonlight said, her eyes on the road. “Trellism is the remnants of an ancient religion on your world, originally founded by Autonomy long, long ago. A seed for when she decided to move in. Now, that time has come. Autonomy is looking for someone on this planet to fully take up that role, that identity.”

“Wait, take up that role?”

“She wants to leave a god behind on this planet,” Moonlight explained. “Someone who bears some of her power, who sees to her interests, and is—in many ways—a piece of her soul. She does this all around the cosmere. Some worlds have entire pantheons that are all versions of her, each of which has a distinct personality and identity.”

“So … she’s role-playing? With herself?”

“Yes,” Moonlight said. “But Autonomy’s Investiture has a life of its own, and so each version of her becomes its own thing over time. Sometimes they aren’t a person but only power.

 

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Creating Avatars in various places is, to my mind, more just a way to try to do good without becoming the monogod ruler of everything. The fact religions she has influenced promote ambition would seem like a design on restoring the first Shard that Odium wrecked.

Have you read White Sand (any version)?

  I have problems finding any altruism in Bavadin/Autonomy seeing what she has done to her own world and peoples. And that's in a place where there are no other Shardic influences. . . 

Edited April 1, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

12 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I have problems finding any altruism in Bavadin/Autonomy seeing what she has done to her own world and peoples.

I have tried to read it, but the graphic novel failed to hold my interest. I recall finding Kenton just impossible to care about for some reason.

I also don't think Bavadin's idea of good really seems to care about humans in particular or even sapient life. The impression I have off what I have seen is that she seems more interested in promoting the growth of bacteria and birds than she does the progress of human technology.

I think this is an attitude fitting for someone who would aspire to be one of the gods. Humans are fearsome enough creatures, it's the rest of the world that truly needs a god.

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

I have tried to read it, but the graphic novel failed to hold my interest. I recall finding Kenton just impossible to care about for some reason.

If you click the link in my previous post, I discuss the myriad ways to read White Sand (Prose, Graphic Novel, Omnibus, Graphic Audio, Summary, Threads).

 

4 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

The impression I have off what I have seen is that she seems more interested in promoting the growth of bacteria and birds than she does the progress of human technology.

No, she's very interested in technology - enough to give Taldain help with physics and tech advancement. It's part of why she's afraid of Scadrial - their tech level is starting to rival Taldain's (especially because Taldain stagnated when she cut off Worldhoppers from visiting or leaving). 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

14 hours ago, Treamayne said:

No, she's very interested in technology - enough to give Taldain help with physics and tech advancement. It's part of why she's afraid of Scadrial - their tech level is starting to rival Taldain's (especially because Taldain stagnated when she cut off Worldhoppers from visiting or leaving). 

Is that because she thinks technology is good or because technology grants power in form of advanced weapons?

16 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I have a different view on this: It seems like Autonomy just wants to maintain the order of 16. Harmony is a problem for her because Sazed formed a dishard. I imagine Retribution is next on her list of people to try to break up.

Autonomy has to face a contradiction. How do you enforce rules and still maintain atonomy? Likewise, the strategic situation now calls for alliances among the Shards. Autonomy has an obvious problem with that. Her solution of creating avatars is actually quite clever.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Is that because she thinks technology is good or because technology grants power in form of advanced weapons?

We don't know her reasons (if she has them). TLM Ep4:

Spoiler

“What are you proposing?” Sazed asked.

“Lead us into a new technological age,” Kelsier said. “Help us find ways to defend ourselves, and perhaps accomplish even more. Autonomy consistently shares with her people the things they can accomplish with electricity and industry. You don’t.”

“People should discover it on their own,” Sazed said. “If they do not, there are subtle consequences. We should let the decades play out, becoming centuries, and let humankind find their own path to the cosmere—”

“No,” Kelsier said. “We can’t wait centuries; we can barely wait decades. If you don’t do something, we will discover technology on our own—when enemy armies bearing it arrive to destroy us. Lead us to a revolution, Saze. Bring us into a new world.”

That said, the in-world examples we have from White Sand (spoilers):

Spoiler

Autonomy's Sand Lord Avatar appeared, separately, to both Lossa and Kertza (siblings) granting Sand Mastery to Lossa and telling her to use it then telling her brother she stole the power and it is immoral and should be destroyed - all to instigate a centuries long war of attrition for "Survival of the fittest." By the time of the book, becuase the war had stagnated - the Avatar appeared to a Sand Master telling that person to betray their people, then tought the Kertzians how to negate Sand Mastery. On Darkside, the yet-unnmaed avatar led one country to advanced technology (which is how Khriss had firearms during M:SH when she met Kelsier) so Skathan could create a continent spanning empire oppressing all other nations.

There does not seem to be consistant reasons for when and how she (or her avatars) grant technological knowledge.

 

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

On 3/31/2025 at 9:16 AM, Oltux72 said:

We now have confirmation that Wind and Truth predates Era 2 of Mistborn. This means that Autonomy attacked Scadrial knowing that Roshar had fallen to Retribution. Can we conclude that Autonomy and Retribution have allied? Or did she just continue older plans? If so, does that mean that she does not care about the balance of power?

From past WOBs it seems like Autonomy and Rayse were allied at least loosely although it’s unclear if that still holds with Taravangian and Retribution. From what’s going on it seems like Autonomy just saw an opportunity and took it with everyone else distracted. My theory is in the grand scheme of things, Rayse and Bavadin both wanted to be the sole power in the Cosmere and were allied in order to combat the other Shards with both planning to betray each other once they were close enough to their goal. With Rayse dead and Odium combined we don’t know what either are planning in regard to one another anymore